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Post by jamshundred on Dec 6, 2014 17:42:26 GMT
This has bugged me for some time. I am now commenting at every opportunity because there is an anal purveyor of information who likes to refer people to this particular article.
The ADCA website has a PDF article available for reference and download on chondrodysplasia. This article is NOT representative of dwarf Dexter cattle. The photos must have been selected for sensationlism and to prejudice breeders against dwarf cattle. ( Compare the photos in this article with those on the historical sites or those posted in various venues from dwarf breeders). I have been breeding dwarf Dexters for over two decades. I have had exactly six bulldog calves. I breed chondro to chondro on occasion so this will give you an idea that statistics are just that and it could take you years of flipping quarters to ever reach 50% heads and tails IF you ever did. ( Reminds me of the lie of "purebred" stats which leads us to believe all those outcrossed genes disappear in 4 generations? Does not take into account Lucifer desendents who still have their red color, and their udder and dairy production after many generations).
I have never had a Dexter with the appearance of the high percentage portrayed in this article. I am not even sure they are all actual Dexter dwarf cattle as there is no identification with the photos. There is other information not supported by science but by supposition.
Please join with me in demanding, at every opportunity, ADCA remove this offensive article and replace it with one that is more accurate and scientifically supported.
Enough is enough. Enough culled dwarf Dexters from a breed that IS a dwarf breed because potential breeders are being repulsed or scared out of their wits with exaggeration.
Judy
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 8, 2014 21:18:31 GMT
I think that article warrants a Special General Meeting called by the members.
It would also be enough to make us move our membership to another association
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 8, 2014 21:28:25 GMT
Indeed! Thank you for saying it ! ! Can you imagine? This is not a "scientific" article with veterinary information. It is biased, prejudicial, has an agenda, makes assumptions, uses pictures that are not identified, ( and of animals of which I have NEVER seen the likes!), and ADCA has published this on their website for the WORLD to see. Some folks get might annoyed at me for ragging on the leadership in this breed. . . .but folks. . . a "professional" association is supposed to be PROFESSIONAL! The leadership of ADCA has made choice after choice, decision after decision that just are not professional.
This is a horrible representation for a breed association to publish or promote. And that includes the anal purveyor ( well now there are two of them) of "knowledge" who constantly refers people to that article.
Just for the record. . . . the PHA article does not show photos of PHA animals . . . and there are physical characteristics of PHA cows if one has a trained eye. . . . and I don't see gobs of photos of those pitiful little PHA babies. Especially not the one from 2002 that hidden from the membership by the leadership along with the other known information about this genetic recessive.
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Post by cascade on Dec 9, 2014 2:45:26 GMT
I think that article warrants a Special General Meeting called by the members. It would also be enough to make us move our membership to another association The article has been in place for 7 years. It's pure science. Can you write a better version? Can you point out any SPECIFIC statements that are inaccurate? www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_article_chondrodysplasia.html |
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 9, 2014 3:20:44 GMT
It has been more than a few hours Kirk. Could I get you some fresh ice for that Kool-Aid your drinking? It'd be my pleasure!
As an aside. . .did you know that every time you say "thank-you" to an employee at Chick-Filet they are required to respond "my pleasure"?
As another aside. . . . since that "scientific" article does not have the byline of any research scientist on it tell me how YOU discern that which is opinion versus science please.
I've not yet seen an article by a scientist that did not site the scientists that went before them upon whose published science information is drawn. I don't see any science being given credit for scientific dogmain this article. what am I missing here?
Judy
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Post by cascade on Dec 9, 2014 3:28:31 GMT
Just for the record. . . . the PHA article does not show photos of PHA animals . . . and there are physical characteristics of PHA cows if one has a trained eye. . . . and I don't see gobs of photos of those pitiful little PHA babies. 1. Can you provide photos and a description of the "physical characteristics of (heterozygous) PHA cows if one has a trained eye"? Is there any science behind this? 2. We should suggest adding a photo of a deformed homozygous PHA baby to the PHA article. 3. We should suggest adding a new article showing pictures of dead deformed homozygous Chondro Babies (bulldogs) AND PHA Babies and contrasting the difference between the two. Science and knowledge is a good thing. |
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 9, 2014 3:41:59 GMT
Kirk, I totally agree. Did you know. . . . . . . way back in time, I think it was 2001 give or take a year. . . I had my first bulldog calf. I took great pictures of it, and I sent them to the editor of the ADCA Bulletin and asked for them to be published. I had heard about "bulldog" calves but there was no frame of reference available. I learned from him that chondro was "hush-hush" and he would catch it for publishing that photo, but he did. It appeared in every issue of the Bulletin for a long time. Might be the only picture ever published for owners? So you are speaking to the choir. I think members should be FULLY informed. . . .about their breed about cows, about outcrossed imports, about issues, about politics, and I think we deserve to have a leadership/secretary who actually records the minutes and then transcribes them and publishes factual data. Oh dear, as usual, I digress.  I then published that photo on the talk forum where I participated at the time so that everyone could have the same opportunity as I had just experienced for few of them had seen a bulldog calf. Lots of talk about them Kirk, but not so many to bury. Certainly not what you would think based on the common mantra that makes the rounds. As is my modus operandi , I say it the way I think it. I only suffer ignorance from those who have not been informed. Then I try to remedy the slight. FYI I also published the one and only photo I have ever seen of a mature PHA calf that killed it's dam. Well, sort of /roundabout because the vet mis-diagnosed it as a bulldog calf and tried to pull it. You didn't say if the ice in your kool-aid is melted yet. Do tell so I can be a good hostess. Judy |
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 9, 2014 3:49:28 GMT
Kirk,
I know you are typing. I can feel it. Isn't that a great feature that sends an email to alert you your conversation has a response? LOL
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Post by cascade on Dec 9, 2014 4:15:05 GMT
I don't see any science being given credit for scientific dogma in this article. what am I missing here? From the article: "Dr. Julie Cavanagh, University of Sydney (AU), discovered the genetic location of the mutated gene and presented her findings at the 2002 International Dexter Congress" If you want to challenge any SPECIFIC statement in the article , I'll be happy to review it and find scientific backing for you. Much of it is genetics 101. www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_article_chondrodysplasia.html |
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 9, 2014 4:58:35 GMT
www.dexters4u.com/2012/04/dexter-bulldogs-and-waterbabies/ Written by a "real" scientist. link.springer.com/search?facet-author=%22Julie+A.+L.+Cavanagh%22#page-1 Here is the link to the abstract by the actual scientist. Note how the references to the research of others are noted. Click on "look inside" to see the abstract. You will have to write Dr. Cavanagh, or the professional journal to request ( or purchase) a copy of the entiret Interesting to note the difference in style of the "scientist" who wishes to inform and the "non-scientist" whose article seems intent to shock, titilate, and promote an agenda and make a sensation with animals that might not even be purebred Dexters! Which article(s) , if given a choice would a professional breed association present to the public on it's website? Does ADCA even care that there are paying members of the Association who breed and sell dwarf cattle, the very essence and foundation of the breed itself? Kirk, even though you often try to hide it you are a reasonable guy. You know I am right! This article on the website is simply another dreadful and un-professional decision by ADCA. Along with the article by John Potter promoting the banding of horns which in fact mirrors a promotion by the company that manufacturers the bander! Band dehorning has been discouraged by researchers of Kansas State University, and one veterinarian writing in a national journal and I suspect others if I went searching. . . and more will come because it is a sustained painful choice. You should be in the forefront asking your breed association to be more professional! Judy
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Post by lonecowhand on Dec 9, 2014 17:27:57 GMT
"He blinded me with Science!" Thomas Dolby. LOL
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Post by cascade on Dec 9, 2014 21:33:15 GMT
I actually wish the article stressed the fact that there have always been true-shorts in the mix.
When shorter Kerry Cattle were separated out from the original Kerry herd to become Dexters, there would have been some true-short non-chondros in the mix. The true-shorts could breed true, and the chondro-shorts could not. The Woodmagic herd didn't invent true shorts, Beryl just selected some existing shorter animals that could breed true, and closed her herd to refine the true-shorts without chondro.
Perhaps I'll propose an article extolling the virtues of working hard to keep the breed from getting too tall and how true-short genetics is the consistent and predictable way to do it.
I hate all de-horning. We leave the horns on any calves born with horns when we use a heterozygous polled bull. I wouldn't want an entire herd of horns because we work VERY closely with our herd and don't want to get accidentally bumped by horns. We have plenty of folks looking for horned cattle, so we can always find homes for them.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 13, 2014 16:22:52 GMT
Judy, can you say hypocrisy? For that is exactly what I see with your comments. “The ADCA website has a PDF article available for reference and download on Chondrodysplasia. This article is NOT representative of dwarf Dexter cattle”.
While you pleading for people “Please join with me in demanding, at every opportunity, ADCA remove this offensive article and replace it with one that is more accurate and scientifically supported”
In the meantime your other website sits fallow and mentions NOTHING about chondro except that you can test for it. There is an explanation of what PHA and A2 milk are. What happen to chondro?  No explanation, nada, zip, zilch and all the other words you could use meaning nothing. I’m sure this was not something you forgot but was done intentionally. As you like to say “can you image” So before you go calling people to arms, maybe you should look in your own back yard. The irony of it all. |
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 14, 2014 19:29:49 GMT
nBarb,
The ADCA has a dreadful article which is meant to sensationalize and exaggerate the dwarism found in the foundation cows of our breed, and I object to that. I do NOT object to an article whose sole intent is to inform. Don't pretend to think otherwise. I also object on behalf of more than a few Dexter cattle owners who breed with dwarf cattle. . . . this article is patently unfair to them and ADCA should remove it at once, and I sincerely hope that any dwarf breeder reading this will write to their Director and complain of this sensationalized article and ask for it to be replaced. Call to arms!
I have not been the person working on the somewhat idle ( for lack of time and personnel) preservation website I assume you refer to. But since you are asking so nicely, I will see if someone will jump to your snapped fingers and add an article about dwarfism and how it played a significant part in the formation of this breed as well as information as to the percentages relating to breeding dwarf and non-dwar cattle to minimize any risk.
And if it is an ARMY that is required to preserve the Dexter breed as it was organized and intended by it's founders. . . . . than a call to arms it is! !
Judy
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 14, 2014 21:01:03 GMT
Judy, can you say hypocrisy? For that is exactly what I see with your comments. “The ADCA website has a PDF article available for reference and download on Chondrodysplasia. This article is NOT representative of dwarf Dexter cattle”.
While you pleading for people “Please join with me in demanding, at every opportunity, ADCA remove this offensive article and replace it with one that is more accurate and scientifically supported”
In the meantime your other website sits fallow and mentions NOTHING about chondro except that you can test for it. There is an explanation of what PHA and A2 milk are. What happen to chondro? No explanation, nada, zip, zilch and all the other words you could use meaning nothing. I’m sure this was not something you forgot but was done intentionally. As you like to say “can you image” So before you go calling people to arms, maybe you should look in your own back yard. The irony of it all. Are you referring to Judy's stud website? An association who sits as a representative of a breed has a higher level to adhere too than a breeder's website, especially if such information is unbalanced in its delivery causing / potential to cause detriment to a business's [stud] financial position. I am wondering why you are even on this forum? The other one a little boring these days? |
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 14, 2014 21:18:01 GMT
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 14, 2014 21:36:32 GMT
Donna i swear to goodness the same thing crossed my brain and my fingers itched to type it . . . . . . . . .! I can exhibit restraint at times.  judy |
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 14, 2014 23:54:08 GMT
I will make the assumption from your link above that it was the Legacy website you were using as a comparison to a breed association's site? While Legacy is ‘technically’ an association when using the definition of people with a common purpose, Legacy is not THE, or in the case of America, one of two of the country’s governing body for the Dexter breed. And thank you once again for providing a link to the Legacy website on a public forum. If it wasn’t for people like you providing such links on public forums surrounded by criticism and commotion, raising one’s curiosity to find out why, I would never have known of such a group of people who are not only working towards a commonly-felt goal but who are very supportive to those of us not only located in a different country but a country with an active grade up program. That is what I have to say. Now answer my question: Why are you on this forum? The other one a little boring these days??? |
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 15, 2014 0:42:07 GMT
Donlindexters. Public forum with only 43 members in it? While it is open for all to see I don't see members jumping on this band wagon.
Now why am I on this forum? I originally came on because of what members of this forum said or did regarding me. Go back and read my post where that is exactly what I said.
Wait....I'll make it easy for you.
Dec 7, 2014 8:27:53 GMT -6 legendrockranch said:
Hans, take the link to website down now. I have no dog in this fight unless you want to make it such.
Your archived my website it has since has been updated, NOT because of you using one of the animals as an example but because the two cows shown on it HAVE BEEN SOLD!!
I have purposely stayed off of this forum. Do you want to bring me in?
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Post by Donlin Stud on Dec 15, 2014 3:31:19 GMT
32 posts it states on your profile.
Maybe only 43 members but still had you lurking here
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 15, 2014 3:54:30 GMT
32 posts it states on your profile. Maybe only 43 members but still had you lurking here
Donlindexters, why is it for you so hard to understand....didn't I also make this comment "it is open for all to see". I was not lurking, I was told by someone who was lurking that I was being discussed on this forum. Can you say you "never" lurk on other forums?
Did you see my comment on why I am even on this forum? Nothing to say about that? Nothing about the individual who used my website to show an animal I at one time owned, who I did not breed, as an example purely to discredit that person. WHY was I put in that position?
Do you not feel that remark was due a comment.
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I then published that photo on the talk forum where I participated at the time so that everyone could have the same opportunity as I had just experienced for few of them had seen a bulldog calf. Lots of talk about them Kirk, but not so many to bury. Certainly not what you would think based on the common mantra that makes the rounds. As is my modus operandi , I say it the way I think it. I only suffer ignorance from those who have not been informed. Then I try to remedy the slight. FYI I also published the one and only photo I have ever seen of a mature PHA calf that killed it's dam. Well, sort of /roundabout because the vet mis-diagnosed it as a bulldog calf and tried to pull it.
No explanation, nada, zip, zilch and all the other words you could use meaning nothing. I’m sure this was not something you forgot but was done intentionally.