The raging debate - - DNA testing and parentage verificati

[jamshundred]

Some of you do not participate on Facebook.   Here is a thread that has surpassed 215 posts.  I am amused by the sudden urgency by some and their association to dictate to the general membership financial hardship. . . . especially after just discovering that the bull testing program was wasted effort because they don't require parentage verification of the bull calves that are required to be tested of sires who were required to be tested.   Grab a coffee or cool drink.  ... . . . .   .  And don't misinterpret that I am against DNA testing and parentage verification and integrity of pedigrees.  I have always been.  Although that isn't the most value to be gained from maintaining parentage confirmed herds amd I have to tell you. . . . the leadership has not yet once mentioned to their membership the value of parentage confirmation.  I don't think they know it.  They just try to keep up with the Legacy and blindly run amok.   I am for doing it right and putting the interests of the members first . .  . and exploring the options for doing that.  Actually they have had those suggestions over the years and ignored them.    I sure would like to know where the idea of the different categories came from.  it is an exercise in taking that which can be simple and making it as difficult as possible.

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This post was began on the page of Carol Kollar -  Midhill Dexters

I posted this on my own Region page and as Sally Coad mentioned a wider base of people's answers would also be helpful. so just a simple yes or no to this question. I'd like to ask who would prefer to transition into full PV before anything else. With full PV first, the obligate status on the chondro and pha results that the BOD just tried to implement will run a lot smoother.

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Lesa Kinnamon Reid, Sally Coad, Susan French and 4 others like this.



Sally Coad Yes

December 2 at 9:27am · Like



Midhill Farm Yes

December 2 at 9:27am · Like



Lesa Kinnamon Reid Yes

December 2 at 9:27am · Like



LaDena Moss yes

December 2 at 9:30am · Like



Rya Fouch Yes

December 2 at 9:57am · Like



Shaun Ann Lord Well, the Board couldn't get a mandate on females genotyped and eventual PV mandate through before so the option is the back door rating system forcing a straight up yes that looks far better to everyone. Slick.

December 2 at 10:01am · Like · 1



Little Heritage Farm Yes

December 2 at 10:20am · Like



Lynda Lacroix Either way I still feel it is penalizing little people like me. Either way I lose by having to buy equipment I can't afford, pay for tests I can't afford, or have my herd branded with a #1 rating that looks like the bottom of the barrel because they aren't tested.

December 2 at 11:23am · Like · 1



Luella Malone No what Lynda Lacroix said pretty sad members can't vote on this or any thing else it seems

December 2 at 11:36am · Like



Sally Coad I don't think parentage verification should necessarily be mandated - but I certainly feel that if you want calves that are born after say.., 1/1/16 parentage obligate for anything- they need to be parentage verified.

December 2 at 1:23pm · Like · 7



Clara Harrand yes

December 2 at 2:13pm · Like



Barbara Netti Yes, Yes, YES

December 2 at 2:26pm · Like · 1



Jim Triebwasser Help me out. How many known cases of falsified obligate status are recorded every year? I don't know if this is a major issue or just an idea from somebody influential. So little is shared and assumptions are sure to be made. The BOD need to be more transparent on this.

December 2 at 4:06pm · Like · 3



LaDena Moss I don't know about falsified obligate status but I can tell you my experience from having cows PVed. I bought 3 cows that all came from the same breeder and were close in age and supposed to be from the same bull. It's a long drawn out story but needless to say that the reported sire was incorrect for all 3 and 2 of the cows also had incorrect dams.

December 2 at 4:21pm · Like



Patti Adams There have been several AI-sired calves produced and registered with the wrong sire. Either the AI tech used the wrong straw or another bull bred the cow. The owner of the cow at time of breeding did not discover the error until after the calf was parentage tested and found out the sire of record was excluded. That meant additional testing and expense to find the correct sire and then re-issue pedigree certificates for all the descendents. A stitch in time, saves nine and that old saying really applies to the need for full parentage qualification, prior to registration.

December 2 at 4:26pm · Like · 3



Sally Coad We have purchased at least 3 that I can think of - from very reputable well meaning breeders - mistakes in paperwork happens.., caretakers leave gates open.., all worked out since all bulls were on file and we were able to track it. We have also had one (that we caught before selling) that had the wrong sire attached. It definitely happens - certainly I would hope - most of the time it is an innocent error - but an error nonetheless - which would have gone un-noticed except for PV.

December 2 at 4:32pm · Like · 3



Barbara Netti I know of at least 4 cases here in Texas alone within the last 3 years. I myself purchased a heifer that had the wrong sire listed. At the time I was already fully parentage verifing my animals so I caught the error. I don't think the paperwork was intentionally falsified just people who don't pay to much attention to what is going on in their herds.

December 2 at 4:49pm · Edited · Like · 3



Midhill Farm It is scary just how many crop up with weong sire or dam when they are fully pv'd, I think that's what most would like to fix first so we don't have these problems snowball and starting to affect future generations.

December 2 at 4:37pm · Like · 2



Sally Coad Hey Midhill Farm - if the majority really wants PV mandated - believe me I am ALL IN! But I am going to copy and paste from the other group what I wrote - since there are about 1600 more members here.., and hopefully would get more ideas implementation once folks that work "regular hours" can clock out and comment .., I don't think that would be the case with the majority of breeders. But don't know for sure. I think the ADCA has got to start somewhere. I would sure like 100% PV across the board but I still think logically the first "wave" should be mandated PV testing on all obligate calves born. Perhaps to "widen" the animals affected - or Phase 2 should include red calves - since 2 reds make a red they are getting an "obligate" status of being red without testing.., Again - it's a bit of a mute point for those of us who are already PV every calf that hits the ground but there needs to be a solution that is not too difficult for people to comply with who don't have their whole herd currently genotyped. I wonder how many herds over say 30 head don't regularly test/genotype? It's just part of the expense of owning and running a registered herd as far we are concerned - but obviously since mandated female genotyping didn't get very far last year (or the year before).., many still don't feel that way. This being an Association that acts on behalf of it's membership BUT ALSO MUST act on behalf of integrity of the registry.., has to walk a fine line between being too demanding, too quickly for the membership to be able to adapt their management of their own particular herds in order to keep up and compromising accuracy.

December 2 at 4:41pm · Edited · Like · 3



Midhill Farm I hear ya Sally Coad and if the majority of membership don't want full pv first I'm happy to support doing it in stages if I have to. Carol.

December 2 at 4:45pm · Like · 2



LaDena Moss Alicia, that is awful and I'm sorry that it happened to you. I was worried that would happen to me also while I was trying to get everything fixed.

December 2 at 5:00pm · Edited · Like · 1



Donna Jenkins I am 100% for full PV before anything else!......I am STILL waiting to get the right sire to one of my cows I sold, and it is 7 months now!...So I want PV BEFORE anything else is passed.....

December 2 at 5:03pm · Like · 3



Laura Rice OMG!!! I am way behind, please what is PV? And how much is it gonna cost? And why do I need to do it ? I only have one bull at a time so no worries there as long as my cows are what they were represented to be when I bought them.........Are other cow breeds this complicated?? My sister has Simmentals and they don't have to test for anything. She says they don't have the problems Dexters do. I think they must have some of their own but haven't seen it from her cows.

December 2 at 5:33pm · Like



Sally Coad PV - parentage verified. $25 for genotype of calf... Sire already genotyped on file per current rules + $25 to genotype dam if not already done. PV is free once genotypes are in place. - should add these are UC Davis

prices. If Sire is on file at Texas A&M you can submit the foreign file to UC Davis for only $2.00.

December 2 at 6:13pm · Edited · Like



Deborah Hungate Botruff AMEN on Parentage Verification FIRST....I do that now with EVERY calf I register. I want to KNOW the calf I'm getting is who they are supposed to be, I'm assuming my customers want the same!! Doesn't cost me anymore to PV if DNA is done. I do it on ALL calves that are registered, easy peasy!!

December 2 at 5:49pm · Like · 4



Midhill Farm Keep posting people, it's good we hear from all.

December 2 at 5:57pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams FYI, Simmental cattle have their own genetic issues that are tested for and reported by breeders of registered breeding stock: simmental.org/site/index.php/genetic-defects

December 2 at 7:29pm · Like · 2



Dennis Salyers I am very careful as to dates and records and I to had a calf last year that did not test sire qualified. What I figured out later was that the calf was 32 days premature causing the confusion as to which bull had covered her. Had it not been for Pv she would have been registered incorrectly. I am very much for pv.

December 2 at 8:45pm · Like · 5



Patti Adams We have been parentage verifying our calves for the past 6 years. All of the registered breeding stock that we sell is parentage verified, PHA tested, and Chondro tested. It's the best way possible to help someone else get their herd off to a good start.

December 2 at 8:53pm · Like · 4



Laura Rice She only has Fleckvieh Simmental and must be really lucky because there in no testing unless using older emboryo then they test....Of course she is the first person who explained what PB meant to me too .........

December 2 at 8:54pm · Like



Dennis Salyers One thing we need to be careful of as a group is to not price our selves out of business. I think there needs to be a discussion about the cost that we have in these animals prior to being able to sell. For example. I have to pay the adca 50 dollars for every calf I raise and sell. This is after the cost of testing , vetting and feeding of calf and cow. I figured it up a few months ago and on average I have 800 dollars in every calf prior to sell.

December 2 at 8:56pm · Like · 4



Dennis Salyers 25 for registration and 25 for transfer

December 2 at 8:58pm · Like · 2



Deborah Hungate Botruff WOW, I raise Quarter Horses, that's on average what I have in each QH foal when they hit the ground. I do not agree on the "raised" registration and transfer fees that were implemented, I do not "feed" my cattle, they get hay, good mineral, loose and block white salt, wormed once a year, BY FAR the lowest input of anything here on the farm, that includes Quarter horses, goats, sheep, chickens and TRT's. My Dexters are fat and happy, beautiful hardy animals that need our protection to ensure the integrity of our Dexters. If you breed ANY registered, and everything here except the chickens (English Orps) you have to accept the responsibility of being stewards for the breed. Testing included, breeding without knowledge is just reckless, Russian roulette. When you figure the average price of a heifer calf at weaning based off weight with a breed known for needing very little input, I think most folks are making enough to well cover what testing has to be done. I did mine a few at a time, took a portion of each sale and put it back into my cows testing. Now that it's done, I can claim obligate, it costs me $25 to DNA and Parent Verify to both parents. Another $50 for registration and transfer, this I feel is unnecessarily high. I belong to quite a few breed associations and ADCA is the highest in fees.

December 2 at 9:14pm · Like · 4



Fran Owen Ashbrook I have no problem with PV for my calves.

December 3 at 7:31am · Like · 2



Shaun Ann Lord Parent verification is necessary, no objections here, I've been doing so through Legacy when Legacy was on top of it long before the Associations knew what it was. PHA testing is another matter, if you do not have Wheatear in your pedigrees there isn't a reason in the world to test every Dexter and I dislike possibly being put in the position being ranked negatively as not having tested for PHA. Same goes for Chondro. When your herd is PHA free try testing one hundred twenty females at $20 or $25 dollars each for something you already know you don't have. I just won't do it and will explain to buyers ( as I do now) as to what pedigree descendants you DO have to test. Add PHA to other tests and you are well into MANY thousands of dollars. Enough is enough with a large herd. I do find that most, not all, new buyers have little interest in or know what to look for on the Registration anyway beyond the name and birthdate. I go over the pedigree with them, but basically it's too new to absorb.

December 3 at 7:57pm · Like · 2



Dennis Salyers Can we also not look at an animal an tell if it is red or dunn. Why do we have to test for that.

December 3 at 8:32pm · Like



Jody Jess Correct Shaun I did not think of that, if you do not have Wheatear why would you need to test for PHA .... Chondro just a add expense if you don't have carries why test and if you want carries and do not mind having some in your herd why make that person test. Geno typing the Females to sire and dams.. I believe that is responsible breeder practice and should be done .Someone mention out pricing our Dexters they made a great point and testing for thing you do not want to know will do that..

December 3 at 8:37pm · Like



Patti Adams We have to test for it because some people just don't know the difference between red and dun and they would register their animal with the wrong color. Heck, there are some people that can't tell the difference between black and dun!

December 3 at 8:38pm · Like · 2



Dennis Salyers lol

December 3 at 8:45pm · Like · 1



Jody Jess lol.Patty . I realize some people do not know and they should be told about testing and what to look for when buying some want carriers ..PHA don't think anyone wants it, but people have Dexters with PHA and are OK with it. Maybe if the ADCA had a Brochure to download to hand out or send out to new Buyers off the web site that would help sellers and buyers Breeders can have the brochure on hand to give to prospective buyers. Explaining pedigree's what to look for in the pedigree for the traits you don't want or want in your herd and stress the importance to test your herd from the start, to me that would be a start. I think more people test now then before . To mandate a person with a large herds or even smaller herds to test every cow that only makes other people rich. NOT the Farmer. I do test but I have a small herd. but when I use AI I do retest that calve.

December 3 at 9:09pm · Like · 1



Cassandra Coleman Mennone I have all mine tested because I want mine to have obligate status with parentage match. I have had to do this with the TB horses and my Arabians for so long it is no big deal!

December 3 at 10:46pm · Like



Donna Jenkins One thought that came to mind Jody Jess, is if there are so many rules and regs. that a new comer can't figure out, or the expense of all the new proposed testing that will have to be done, it may make new comers think twice about our Dexters.....If they keep coming up with new tests, that's just more and more and more expense!!!..I don't know about all you folks out there but I'm kinda getting tired of all this testing to say the least of all the confusion trying to get all my animals at one place.....I'm having to DNA test all my animals who were not tested at UCD just so I can do all the tests on the calves,, to parentage verify them......I did do a couple of transfers from A&M but those test don't have as many markers....So to me UDC, since they have more makers, seems they woul be more accurite.....What do ya'll think?

December 4 at 12:01am · Like · 3



Lynda Lacroix I can understand the test for red/black/dun. I have a dun bull out of 2 black parents bred to a dun cow with 2 black parents who had a red calf??? Wish the tests were not so expensive

December 4 at 12:36am · Like



Charlene Meyner LaBelle I just wish I could register my 2 heifers with ADCA. I think I need to buy another heifer that comes with ADCA registration. I can't get the person that sold me my heifers and steers to pull tail hair on her living bull. My bull is registered with ADCA and PDCA.

December 4 at 12:54am · Like



Charlene Meyner LaBelle PS I believe the sire of both my heifers has BOTH his parents registered with ADCA. I would think there would be sufficient DNA in common..

December 4 at 12:56am · Like



Midhill Farm Shaun I understand your issue on PHA for sure, but since we cannot guarantee pedigrees from years ago, there is no assurance that you don't have Wheatear in a pedigree. We have all seen how easy it is recently that people still have wrong dams listed, so the possibility is there for pha in everyones pedigrees.

December 4 at 7:09am · Like · 3



Patti Adams People are always surprised when the wrong dam shows up. They wonder how can that happen, the calf knows its mama, right?? Well, here's how it can happen and how calves end up with the wrong dam, even in very small herds. When two cows are in a pasture together and they both have their calves on the same day, the older experienced mama cow will sometimes try to "steal" the younger female's baby. Her behavior is entirely guided by hormones that attract her attention to the newborn laying in the grass. If she starts licking that calf, the calf will respond to her and try to nurse. If the calf suckles the wrong cow and she allows it to, it will follow her and lay near her. The other cow may take the other calf, that is being ignored by its dam. Now, the switch has happened and the owner gets home from work and doesn't know it. They tag and ID the wrong calf to the wrong dam and when those calves get registered without parentage qualification to the dam and sire, an error is made, actually two errors are made, since both calves are registered with the wrong dam.

December 4 at 7:41am · Like · 1



Fran Owen Ashbrook Patti Adams - this almost happened to me last Feb. I had 2 heifers born on the same morning. The heifer dam had hers first but ended up trying to steal the other baby when it was born. Both dams were trying to get the same baby and totally ignoring the first baby. I put babies with dams I thought they went with and did pv testing - I did get it right but it would've been easy to get it wrong.

December 4 at 7:57am · Like · 1



Shaun Ann Lord Wheatear is relatively limited.......my herd is based on Old Orchard and Wheatear simply was not brought in by Marcia. I think Kathy Smith, Michael Foor-Pessin and Kelvin Tomlinson who's herds contain Old Orchard probably feel the same. Not to Worry. By now, if PHA was in any of those herds ( including Chautauqua) it would have raised it's ugly head. It hasn't. You and I disagree over decades old pedigrees. I happen to think past breeders were more careful overall (fewer breeders, fewer bulls, very few AI Bulls available) than a larger number of breeders today jumping on the Dexter bandwagon. I know there are wonderful, conscientious new breeders today but some are not. They don't take the breed seriously. I'll be jumped all over for saying that, so be it. No way will I test for PHA adding $3000 to an already basic $6000 tab. This nitpicking over old pedigrees (decades old) is a tempest in a teacup.

December 4 at 8:19am · Edited · Like · 1



Jody Jess I'm all in for PV Sire and Dams, but I do like this P1 P2 or C1 C2 plan to costly for the people that do not care about one or the other or both PHA or Chondro the System they have to me is simply put and easy without looking at a chart to figure out...If people want to test and can afford to the test that is great if not maybe one day they will. . PV Sire and Dams to offspring that is good for the Breed as far as keeping pedigrees correct and the breed correct but not sure how you test a calve to AI breeding if it's a older AI bull......

December 4 at 8:04am · Like



Patti Adams Jody Jess - If an AI bull is being used to sire calves born in present day time, then that AI bull's semen should be genotyped and on file. It only takes part of a semen straw to get a genotype. At that point, all of his AI sired calves can be sire qualified. If the dams of those calves are also genotyped and on file, then the calves can be fully parentage qualified (sire and dam qualified). The ADCA's policy is inconsistent because it currently requires that embryo transfer calves be fully parentage qualified and that both the sire and dam genotypes be on file, but it doesn't require the same for AI-sired calves.

December 4 at 8:12am · Like · 1



Sally Coad Patti Adams I was totally not aware of that bit of information! That should be a big priority! All AI calves should be mandated to at the very least - be Sire qualified! I would imagine (also read as "hope") that most people do this testing on calves to make certain they got what they paid for! I am assuming bull calves born from AI must be?

December 4 at 8:20am · Edited · Like · 1



Patti Adams Bull calves born from AI-breeding have to meet the same requirements as bull calves born from natural service, and the minimum requirement right now is that they be "sire qualified". But that isn't the same as being fully parentage qualified and errors can still be made without the dam's genotype being included in the analysis.

December 4 at 8:23am · Like · 2



Patti Adams For example, if I have a son of Bedford Romarc Rambler (an AI-bull) and I use him to breed some of my cows live service, during the same breeding season that I'm also using Bedford Romarc Rambler to AI-breed several cows, the resulting calves from that breeding season will very likely "Sire Qualify" to either bull. The only way to make sure the right sire is recorded for each calf is to have the genotype of each cow included in the parentage analysis for each calf and fully parentage qualify each calf.

December 4 at 8:28am · Like · 5



Patti Adams Sally Coad - There is a problem with using two different labs for genotyping and not maintaining a single genotype database. If a calf is "Dam Qualified" at one lab and "Sire Qualified" at another lab -- it is not fully parentage qualified. In order to be properly parentage qualified, a calf's genotype must be compared to the genotypes of its dam and sire simultaneously. This is because each marker in the genotype has two values, so if the sire has a value for each marker that matches the calf's, then the dam must have the other marker value for each marker in her genotype in order to match the calf. The only way to perform this parentage analysis is for the lab to have all three genotypes - the sire, the dam, and the calf.

December 4 at 8:59am · Like



Sally Coad Patti - yes I agree with your scenario and agree on PV.., but I am not sure why the ADCA doesn't require it on AI calves? You are counting on too many hands in the AI process to prevent getting something incorrectly identified.

December 4 at 9:03am · Edited · Like



Lesa Kinnamon Reid Yep. Two different labs creates problems. I would TOTALLY be in favor of moving toward using UCD exclusively. But that's just me . . .

December 4 at 9:07am · Like · 2



Patti Adams Sally Coad - The ADCA will register AI-sired heifer calves without any genotyping, just like they register live service heifer calves without any genotyping. The ADCA requires that the AI-sire be genotyped and on file, just like they require a herd sire to be genotyped and on file, but there is no requirement for parentage verification of any sort on females. The ADCA does require a record of AI-service when registering AI-sired calves: www.dextercattle.org/pdf/2011AIform.pdf and this form should be filled out, signed, and dated at the time of service. It should be kept in sleeve protector along with the actual empty straw of the AI bull that was used to artificially inseminate that cow (for future reference and verification). However, many breeders don't even know that they need to do this. The AI forms are frequently forgotten until the breeder wants to register the calf and then they fill them out! Without proper parentage qualification, prior to registration application, there is no way for the Registrar to know if the information she is getting is correct or not.

December 4 at 9:21am · Like



Jody Jess Me too Lesa. I use UC Davis I like the online test results, Online forms and the quick turn around One click sends your PV to ADCA great tool and easy .. the only thing is the BULL that you use AI if you don't have case number it's a bit of a run around to track that down.

December 4 at 9:32am · Like · 1



Lesa Kinnamon Reid Yep!

December 4 at 9:47am · Like



Shaun Ann Lord U. C. at Davis should have been designated as the only Lab a long time ago. Two Labs added to the confusion which is still causing problems. Maybe the Board should finally address that for a start.

December 4 at 9:48am · Like · 1



Sally Coad As far as labs- though we probably shouldn't stray too far from the topic at hand .., I would definitely support a move to 100% UC Davis. Dr. Cochran (Texas A&M) is the first to admit his technology at his lab is outdated. There have been several errors that I know of personally - including incorrect A2 tests, incorrect polledness tests AND the most worrisome - incorrect genotyping.

December 4 at 9:49am · Like · 1



Sally Coad Anytime we buy animals now that have been tested at Texas A&M - we rerun the testing at UC Davis.

December 4 at 9:50am · Like · 2



Shaun Ann Lord I think getting everyone on the same page using U.C. at Davis is necessary.......all future testing under one roof.

December 4 at 9:51am · Like · 3



Paul Ertsgaard Figuring out how to improve accuracy of registrations in the most economical way seems an appropriate use of organization resources. The profitability of raising cattle has been rising for awhile, but that tide will turn, as it always does. What may seem a bit "expensive" now will become prohibitive when markets get tougher.

As others have mentioned, a single lab would, on it's face, seem to be a simpler, more efficient solution to improve Pv accuracy. But that is handing a monopoly to an outside agent. You may be paying $100 per test in 5-10 years, and, at the same time, seeing your margins squeezed by market forces.

Is there a good reason for ADCA to not maintain a separate database for parent verification, at least for all the animals already registered? Even for the little guys, like me, having parent verification done is sometimes a real pain.

Developing a complete methodology that any Dexter breeder could use and then be confident of having accurate registration records would encourage members and make it relatively easy to move to a standardized system. This could also facilitate things like electronic submissions which could result in lower costs for registrations and transfers.

I know this discussion is about how to move forward and to offer ideas for managing test results, parent verifications, et.al. I would submit that this may be the perfect time to consider upgrading the role and capabilities of our organization to better meet both current and future needs.

December 4 at 9:51am · Like · 1



Shaun Ann Lord As Sally mentioned.....Texas A&M isn't the most professional Lab. That is a different issue than monopolies. Many of us can relate an instance or two about the incompetence of Texas A&M.

December 4 at 9:58am · Like · 2



Lesa Kinnamon Reid UCD does genetic testing for MANY breeds of animals, not just cattle. They're a huge operation. Professional. Easy to work with. With very simple online submission and payment options. They "have their act together." Genotyping only costs $25 per animal, which gives you a permanent record. AND they keep tail hairs on file so that you can order other genetic testing later if you want. After you have paid for genotyping, all parent qualification requests are FREE if all the animals in the rerquest already have genotypes at UCD. Every PV is free . . . every time. I think it's a good deal.

December 4 at 10:10am · Like · 1



Midhill Farm But Shaun, you used Postal Patron and he goes back to Chabotte, who was a pha carrier, so saying your herd was based on Old Orchard is fine, but if you used outside bulls then they have lines to PHA carriers??

December 4 at 10:12am · Like



Paul Ertsgaard UCD does not always have tail hairs available for additional testing. No matter how many you send the first time. Taught from personal experience. I now keep tails hairs on file myself too. Has happened to me twice now at UCD. I do think they do a reasonable job but they make their share of mistakes.

December 4 at 10:15am · Like



Patti Adams Midhill Farm - RFF Postal Patron tested as a non-carrier of PHA. His progeny cannot get the Dexter PHA mutation from him.

December 4 at 10:36am · Like



Midhill Farm Yes I realize that Patti, but breeders need to be careful they don't generalize to buyers and mis lead them, guess I should have explained that better.

December 4 at 10:41am · Like



Midhill Farm Making it mandatory for AI sires to have their genotypes available at both labs would certainly help members. That should be an easy fix.

December 4 at 10:52am · Like · 1



Shaun Ann Lord For the required $3000 in order to test for PHA, which the herd does not have, I'll pass. I can easily explain why there is no PHA to new buyers........it works just fine now.

December 4 at 10:58am · Like



Hans Peterson Why not a "limited" and "full" registration status? LIMITED would be a registration as it currently exists, but the ADCA encourage (or even require) those breeders to pull, store, and clearly label and identify tail hairs with all the relevant information about the calf, parents, etc... (this is something that should have been encouraged for years now even without required testing). FULL registration would have genotyping and testing or obligate status for PHA and chondro. Those who perform this have a added sales tool to use for buyers, which helps offset some of the added costs of the testing. However, as long as a LIMITED breeder has preserved the tail hairs there is the opportunity for a later upgrade of the Dexter to FULL registration status by performing the tests. This could be done prior to sale in order to increase the price the seller would obtain, or it could be done by a purchaser that wishes to have a "FULL" status herd as a condition of the purchase, along with a discounted price. Sure, it may cost a couple hundred dollars to test 3-4 prior generations for genotyping and PHA, but if the price of the Dexter is right and the cow or heifer is of nice quality or good pedigree I'm sure some would do it. And in the process there would be some philanthropic benefit, because other calves the dam may have raised would now have the ability to be parentage verified by others who may have purchased them over the years. The advantages to this are that there are some heifers (or cows) that you may be inclined to register prior to the late registration fee, but don't turn out so well, can't produce a calf, produce poor quality calves, etc... that would be culled (not every Dexter cow should be saved). Why invest so much money into such a heifer or cow initially if you plan to retain her and see what she turns out to be or what kind of calves she produces?

December 4 at 11:05am · Like



Jody Jess Registry is for pedigree.. Not what they carry if that the case test for BLV.. Blue Tongue... Johne's... TB ect, I rather know you have a clean herd than if you Have Chondro or PHA

December 4 at 11:13am · Like



Midhill Farm Jody many breeders use the registry as a birth record for their herd, so register everything to prove their cow has calved on a yearly basis. I'm not in favor of this but that's the way it goes.

December 4 at 11:33am · Like



Midhill Farm From what I am reading there are lots of ideas and we have to get them in writing to our Regional Directors in order for them to be taken into consideration. I'd encourage you all to email your concerns, ideas etc. And see what the Board come up with. Carol.

December 4 at 11:37am · Edited · Like · 2



Lesa Kinnamon Reid Doing that today Nearly finished with the email . . .

December 4 at 12:05pm · Like · 3



Jody Jess I called my director with my opinion already ..

December 4 at 12:07pm · Like



Dennis Salyers I hope they are reading this. The Directors

December 4 at 12:40pm · Like · 2



Lynda Lacroix Last time I spoke up I had several people pm'ing me jumping on me for not caring about my little herd and the integrity of the Dexter breed, so I hesitate to say anything at all, but for the evidently minority few of us who pinched pennies to buy registered Irish Dexters and are proud to own them... here I go again. While you're talking about all this mandatory testing, limited registration, full registration, ranking system... would you please consider the few of us that want registered stock, want to sell registered stock, but have VERY LITTLE MONEY! It's not that we don't care... it's a cost factor. Don't push us out of ADCA and make us sell unregistered stock because of expensive mandates. To you $55 + per animal (PV,Chrondro, & PHA) may be peanuts but to little people like me... it's paying my water and trash bill for a month. It's what I spend for groceries every 3 weeks! Maybe I'm in the minority, but several of the calves I have sold have gone to small family homesteads that don't have a lot of money either. All I ask is think about us when you start putting these mandates in place.

December 4 at 2:05pm · Like · 3



Donna Jenkins Lynda Lacroix, I have a question for you....Not trying to be mean or anything like that, but did you sit down and figure out the cost of having these Dexters before you bought them?...If you live on a shoestring budget, why do you keep the cattle?....Surely when you sell your calves, that can pay some of your bills.....An if you only have a couple of cows, why can;t you use the money from them to pay for the testing...You only have to do it once....You stated "several calves I have sold".......Just seems as if you should have enough from them to do some of the testing required.....I will get penalized also if this new rule goes through with this tier method....All my cattle ( 14 of them) are all obligates, but if I don't test ALL mine for PHA & Chondro, I get to have a #4 instead of a #5 like I should.....Just doesn't seem fair.....

December 4 at 2:31pm · Like · 1



Mary Jane Phifer I think that DNA'd dams and sires would be wonderful. I suggested to my director that test results for Chondro and PHA *not* have a number "ranking", but just use the words: Not tested; Carrier- tested; Non carrier tested; non-carrier, obligate.

December 4 at 3:13pm · Edited · Like · 4



Shauna Eastwood Yes.

December 4 at 2:56pm · Like



Patti Adams If you look at how other registered cattle breeds show genetic test results, you will see that only the tests that have been actually done on an animal are reported and shown on their pedigree: www.shorthorn.org/.../gtstatuslist_registrations.html If testing hasn't been done and reported, then nothing is shown. If the ADCA wants to give non-carrier status to untested offspring of tested non-carriers, then the minimum requirement should be full parentage qualification, prior to assigning non-carrier status to any untested offspring.

December 4 at 2:59pm · Like · 3



Carole Cogar Lynda, we have and/ or are registering our dexter herd thru Legacy. If you want to sell or purchase registered livestock I have found that whether it is ADCA, PDCA or Legacy, as long as the testbg is done and the results are what you are looking for pushing higher testing costs won't sell your cattle any better. As for Donna Jenkins' comment, I think it was rude and uncalled for.

December 4 at 3:04pm · Like · 1



Laura Rice What is wrong with my cows being registered and it SAYING non carrier (like it does now) and all this other testing being "value added" things that each breeder does or doesn't do according to their personal preference? A lot of the folks I have sold to do not care to even register their Dexters but do know about PHA and chondro. If you start making it so complicated to tell what the heck you are buying then I have to say I can see their point. Back when I first bought Dexters I would have appreciated something on their pedigree indicating they had an outcross in there since I would have paid more for a preservation animal but no one even told me about it, had to learn that the hard way.

December 4 at 3:28pm · Like · 2



Patti Adams To encourage breeders to genotype their cows, so that their calves could be fully parentage qualified, the ADCA may want to consider offering an "incentive" to help offset the cost of genotyping the cows. Perhaps offering one "free" registration (value = $25) for every female producing a fully parentage verified offspring registered with the ADCA in 2015 and/or 2016. The ADCA would still get a transfer fee ($25) when each animal was sold and transferred. This could be a limited time offer to encourage breeders to get their cows genotyped in the next 12 months.

December 4 at 3:29pm · Like · 2



Jody Jess Word of Caution DON'T over price of owning this wonderful breed of cattle we do not want it to become a RICH Mans Cow ..We breeders need to make sure we make people aware of PHA or Chondro I'm for Sire and Dam testing for PV of Calves but issue with that is old AI sires whom are not here to test.

December 4 at 3:30pm · Like · 1



Lynda Lacroix Donna Jenkins If you can read my mind you know what I think of your comment but I shall not lower myself on this page. To any of you that are wondering, I am disabled because of someone elses bad judgement and I have to learn to make the best of a bad deal. I have a BS in Business Administration, Wildlife Biology, Wildlife Conservation & Management, Minor in General Agriculture... have studied Intensive Grazing Management, Livestock Nutrition, & Forages. My disability check is now 1/4 of what I used to make but I'm learning to deal with it. I chose Dexters because they are easy keepers on pasture, excellent producers, good milk cows, and easy to handle while providing naturally lean beef. I ate a lot of peanut butter, bologna, and pasta for two years before I butchered my first calf but I am now at the point where the herd pays it's own expenses, puts meat in the freezer, and puts money in the budget... finally. Same with the registered Shetland Sheep flock I have... the chickens, meat rabbits, turkeys, and the feeder pigs. I also have a small orchard (17 various species of fruit), berries, and gardens that pay for themselves and put food in my pantry plus some to share with the food pantry. I still have more pasture to clear and a small permiculture to put in this spring including pecan trees, mulberry bushes...and other species. I have a true working homestead farm. I love my Dexter herd and proud to share them with other small homestead farms. I am not a cattle rancher per se and will never have many more than what I now have but I need to be able to sell my calves as registered calves because I count on the income they bring in. None of my herd has been tested so I have to back up and test all of them... and then the calves. I don't have that type of money. The 'extra' money from the calves this year went into buying corral panels for a catch system and a headgate. My cattle are pasture raised and not handled on a daily basis so they are not going to stand still for me to pull tail hairs. I need a squeeze chute which I can't afford yet. It's $100 to get a vet to bring a portable plus the cost of pulling the hairs on each one plus the cost of the tests. I'm not saying it's not a good thing but to make it mandatory or rate my cattle low on a ranking scale most new buyers won't understand is not nice. I do care but cannot monetarily do anything about it at this time. Anyone want to bring their portable squeeze chute up here to my house and pull the hair for me? I don't think so. Any type of grant system or system set up for low-income owners? No. So, think about us little people when you start making your decisions. I've been bold enough to speak up. Cried for hours yesterday with some of the pm's I got accusing me of all sorts of things. Sell my cattle? Not on your life.

December 4 at 11:21pm · Like · 2



Judy Sponaugle I found this out in just the last month. ADCA does NOT require parentage verification on ANY animal. The purpose of DNA typing is a permanent record and parentage verification of offspring. ADCA does NOT require the male offspring of their tested sire to be parentage confirmed. You can register a non confirmed calf no problem. Ludicrous! These last proposed changes are so complicated. They should consult with Legacy who has the experience and works to simplify and keep costs down for owners.

December 5 at 6:29am · Like · 3



Little Heritage Farm I have to agree with Donna Jenkins, and she was not being mean. The fact is that in life we cant always have what we want. Any way I also want to say that what Judy Sponaugle wrote is the absolute truth. I thought that it was the "rule" that an animal be verified before being registered. Just found out the hard way that is not the case.

December 5 at 9:02am · Edited · Like · 1



Little Heritage Farm Judy Sponaugle are you a data base or a full registry? Something MUST change in the ADCA or even the PDCA!

December 5 at 9:19am · Edited · Like · 1



Shaun Ann Lord Yea, Judy, I've been waiting a long time for another registration option.......one that preserves and promotes traditional. Nothing complicated like a chastising rating system but requiring genotyping of both male and female Dexter's and parent verification. Chop Chop!

December 5 at 9:09am · Like · 1



Hans Peterson Judy, are you saying that it is NOT necessary to PV a bull to the sire, but only genotype him in order to register him into the ADCA? I can't believe it...was this done because there were some pre-2000 bulls that may have been registered, but DNA is no longer available and you have a bull that was not registered young, is now older and you wish to bring him into the registry and register calves from him? I can't think of any other reason to allow such a loophole, but even that is no excuse, there at a minimum should have been some kind of cutoff.

December 5 at 9:23am · Like



Sally Coad ADCA does mandate genotype and sire qualifying bull calves- but currently (hopefully to change) not full PV

December 5 at 9:36am · Like · 1



LaDena Moss I bought a bull that was genotyped but not sire qualified. He was typed at UCDavis and his sire was at A&M. I paid to have his genotype sent to A&M so they could sire qualify him.

December 5 at 9:58am · Like



Susan Albritton That is right Sally. The ADCA does require genotype and sire qualifying bull calves. I think sometimes the terms are being interchanged and causing some confusion. Now for me parent verification (PV) means BOTH sire and dam qualifies. For complete and accurate info on qualifications go to the ADCA website

December 5 at 10:15am · Like · 1



Hans Peterson Sally and Susan, that's a good clarification. My question was only about the sire's side of a bull, but PV should mean both sire and dam, of course. We acquired a beautiful bull last summer, born and registered in 2007 which was of course a key factor, but he was not genotyped, sire qualified, or tested in any way. We had everything done at UCDavis to bring him up to date as much as possible.

December 5 at 10:27am · Like · 4



Jim Triebwasser It seems to me we are getting off-topic. I thought this was about the scoring system for Chrondo an. PHA . The BOD directors imposed a new rule to introduce the new scoring system. There seems to be a greater deal of discussion regarding only acceptable way of a heifer or a bull came from sire x to dame y. This would require all cows and bulls be genotyped. Now, there are voices on here articulating the expenses that would be incurred with this rule. How about being reputable and practice good husbandry. The concerns seem to be more from the folks into cattle trading and jockeying. I have a closed herd and genotyped all of my animals as well as tested all for Chrondro and PHA when I only had 7. With hopes of being able to ride on obligate status for the offspring. I only purchase bulls that have been tested or that I test before using. I see the new ruling is going to require me to test all of my subsequent offspring of the original 7 even though there is no way for it to be present. I can afford it but resent it as it seems to an issue for a very vocal few.

December 5 at 11:20am · Like



Patti Adams To stay on topic and to get back to the original question, I say "Yes", full parentage verification should come first. It is the most important testing needed to assure an accurate registration process.

December 5 at 11:28am · Like · 1



Midhill Farm Patti how about ideas of best getting this through to the Board? Should it be a vote, a Regional poll? Board decision?

December 5 at 11:37am · Like



Sally Coad What are the chances that ADCA will send out an actual formal survey to all members - listing specific questions and having membership check YES or NO.., rather than just the 20 members or so commenting on FB?

December 5 at 11:38am · Like · 1



Hans Peterson I agree, full parentage verification is the most pressing concern of Dexter owners and breeders at this time. Doing so will eliminate a good portion of the chondro and PHA questions about an animal. A scoring system shouldn't be necessary if obligate status can only be conferred on PV Dexters that can be fully traced back to tested Dexters at some point.

December 5 at 11:38am · Like · 1



Hans Peterson I don't think it will pass Sally. Eventually the leadership is going to have to lead. The problem is how to stem some of the membership from leaving.

December 5 at 11:40am · Edited · Like



Hans Peterson And members leaving will also mean a reduction in the registrations of Dexters. That is why I think a limited registration option may be part of an answer.

December 5 at 11:45am · Like



Carole Cogar Lynda I am so sorry that you were hurt by uncalled for comments. Please contact Legacy for some help with your questions. Love to you and your Dexters. Ours are our pride and joy.

December 5 at 12:05pm · Like · 1



Midhill Farm Well if they sent out a ballot how many would return it? Look how many vote when there is a Director nomination, not many. Having been on the Board I am all for letting them do their job. I think with this however that a ballot would be in everyones best interest. If it failed, I don't know where we go from there. Thoughts?

December 5 at 12:35pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams Those who care about the breed do the right thing anyway, we parentage verify every cow and bull that we register. Life goes on.

December 5 at 12:37pm · Like · 3



Donna Jenkins I am doing the same Patty but unfortuntaly I am having to wait on other people to get all mine done.....When I get all mine PV'd, I have only been able to do a few at a time , due to expenses, I may just Test all mine for Chrondo & PHA even though they are all OBIGATES!!!......I am still waiting on info for my cow!!!I'm about at my wits end waiting on this person!...So frustrating!

December 5 at 1:39pm · Like



Dennis Salyers Please tell me if the pvs come back sire and damm qualified and the parents are tested why would anyone test obigates, Seems like money down the drain.

December 5 at 1:44pm · Like



Patti Adams Dennis - I test for PHA and Chondro, even on obligates that are fully parentage verified, because it only costs me $10 per test to add these tests when I genotype the calf for parentage verification and it gives the buyer a complete and detailed test report for each animal that they purchase from me. For someone that is just starting a registered Dexter herd, this is the best documentation they can have when they are learning how to do the record keeping for a herd. They also don't have to be concerned about whether or not the status on the pedigree is "obligate" or tested, they know that it is tested.

December 5 at 1:51pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Our actions today lay the groundwork for the future owners and breeders of registered Dexter cattle, that will follow us in the future. We only have our time, in the present, to get things ready and right for the next generation. The better we do our job, the better they will be able to do theirs.

December 5 at 2:01pm · Like · 1



Sally Coad I would not test obligates if they are PV to sire and dam and beyond - IF tests that were done on your oldest generation you are PVing to were tested at UC Davis.

December 5 at 2:12pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams We do our testing at the UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Lab (VGL) and we encourage our buyers to do the same.

December 5 at 2:17pm · Like



Sally Coad Patti if the geneticists say that two non carriers cannot make a carrier - why would you suggest to new owners to test anyway? That seems like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth as someone that is knowledgable on genetics. If they are PV to non carriers then There should be no need for those obligate calves to be tested. Let's say Chondro and PhA negative parents. So you would and should spend $25 to genotype and PV calf- so instead of testing for those two things for $20 you are spending only an extra $5 to have the calf PV to non carrier parents.

December 5 at 2:19pm · Like



Patti Adams Sally - The ADCA does not differentiate between tested non-carriers and obligate non-carriers on its pedigree certificates or on the online pedigree. There is no way for a new owner to know which animals have actually been tested as non-carriers, unless they get a copy of the test report with the documentation of the animal that they buy. That is why testing of obligates should be done and I do the testing in order to provide that report to the buyer. If and when the ADCA takes action to fix this problem, and parentage verification is mandatory for registration, I will respond accordingly.

December 5 at 2:46pm · Edited · Like



Lesa Kinnamon Reid I think the problem with the word "obligate" is its definition. Sometimes, animals in ADCA pedigrees are "obligate" non-carriers of pha and/or chondro. But if you begin to trace the pedigree backwards to find the predecessors that were TESTED negative, you cannot always find negative tests. Predecessors were claimed to be non carriers, but the "obligate negative" animal has no genetic test in it's pedigree to PROVE the obligate status. Therefore, there seems to be two definitions of "obligate." Definition #1: "obligates" by assumed and trusted pha-free or chondro-free pedigrees . . . by tradition. Definition #2: "obligates" because their predecessors TESTED as non-carriers. Some people COMPLETELY trust certain pedigrees, regardless of a lack of genetic testing. Other people only put their trust in genetic testing.

December 5 at 5:06pm · Like · 2



Lesa Kinnamon Reid THAT'S why someone might decide to actually TEST an animal that would already be listed as an "obligate" non-carrier. They might not have been able to track down the actual tests in the animal's pedigree that would genetically prove obligate status.

December 5 at 5:10pm · Like · 1



Rya Fouch If mandated PV is not something that all members want & cannot be passed at this time, why not work within the current system, except only allow obligate non-carrier status for PHA & Chondro to be given to calves who have been PV'd to animals tested as non-carriers?



On the Certificate of Registration they could be listed as a Carrier, Non-Carrier (T) or Non-Carrier (O) depending on whether they had been Tested or if they were PV'd as Obligates.



On the lines of the Online Pedigree, they could also be notated as C, N(T) or N(O) for Chondro, and B, A(T) or A(O) for PHA, updating the legend at the bottom of the page to show what those statuses mean.



If the animals have not been tested, then those areas of the certificate and pedigree remain blank as they always have.



For herds/lines that are not carriers of PHA, they could be granted obligate status either by testing early on in that line and subsequent PV of offspring, or by those herds/lines not carrying Wheatear and again subsequent PV of offspring.

December 5 at 5:51pm · Like



Lesa Kinnamon Reid I am thinking we could have 3 catergories for PHA and Chondro status. Whether they are listed as carrier or non-carrier, it could be qualified by one of these statements: by pedigree, by tested pedigree, or by test. PHA-free, by pedigree means the status is backed by pedigree assumptions, but not provable by testing. PHA-free, by tested pedigree mesns the animal itself isn't tested but its predecesdors DID test free of PHA. PHA-free, bt test means thst particular animal tested free of PHA.

December 5 at 5:59pm · Like · 1



Rya Fouch That's a good idea, Lesa . Then people who aren't sure what PHA lines they should be looking for on their pedigrees would have the legwork done for them.



Would Chondro be able to have that "by pedigree" status though? I don't know my bloodlines well enough to know if there are guaranteed Chondro noncarriers.



The only thing that's a little iffy with your method is that there's no guarantee that the "by pedigree" animals are what they say they are, and some buyers/owners may feel that if it's stated on the pedigree/reg cert then it's official that they don't carry it. I'm always torn over stuff like that though cause I feel that the owners should have a little due diligence, but then there's already so much to research and absorb when you get into pedigrees and bloodlines.

December 5 at 6:15pm · Like



Lesa Kinnamon Reid The system I suggested would assume the "by tested pedigree" could only be applied if the animal is PV.

December 5 at 6:34pm · Like



Lesa Kinnamon Reid I still think we should list genotype status (genotupe on file or not on file). And PV status (sire qualified or dam qualified or sire and dam qualified or not tested).

December 5 at 6:37pm · Like



Dennis Salyers Well we come a full circle. We cannot test our way to integrity, and we cannot protect every future newbie. If you have a herd of all pha free animals it would be crazy to test the calves. I should have 28 calves in the spring that would be 1400 dollars. i pv all my calves which is the responsible thing to do as I run multiple sires, I have chondro and pha carriers and when i breed those cattle I fully test their offspring but I am not going to do unnecessary testing. We all need to treat this as a business of which I am very good at I currently run 6 very successful business and I do so by watching every penny. I have to this because I have a lot of people to answer to. You do not protect newcomers by spending that which is not necessary and passing it on to your customers as though it is. If we advocate mandatory testing on pha and chondro today then what tomorrow a2, polled, color. Should the buyer be aware that they are buying a black a1a1 Pp polled heifer that will never produce an red a2a2 PP calf. Dexter's are a complicated breed which I love because sometimes you have no idea what that calf is going to be. I raised black angus and year after year I had black stocky calves BORING. Let the buyer beware and let the buyer do his home work. i always love when I have buyers that have done so and I can talk shop with them. I always worry when they want one because they' re so cute. The real in justice I think is if we let this get out of control and small less fortunate consumers are unable to get a start in what I believe is one of the greatest experience in farming out there. The joy of raising these little cattle. There are worse things that could happen than buying a cow by accident with pha or chondro. My first two dexters where black longlegs from a farm the advertised chondro free. They both test out as short legs. i was a little upset for I thought they where defective. I still own them to this day and have no plans of ridding my self of them and since I have purchased and raised numerous short legs. I currently have 4 pha cattle that I bought unknowingly. One of them had an a2a2 homo polled red bull last year. and another one gave birth to my very best heifer every born here. Again I say lets be careful and lets be all inclusive and lets keep this breed so that anyone who desires can enjoy them. We tend to be a little mean on these post but in person I will say some of the nicest people ever are dexter people, lets keep it that way.

December 5 at 9:49pm · Like · 6



Patti Adams Dennis Salyers - Only 6 out of the 35 calves that have been registered in the ADCA with you as the Breeder are indicated to be Sire and Dam Qualified (parentage verified). Only 8 out of the 31 animals that you are indicated as owning in the ADCA registry's online pedigree are Sire and Dam Qualified. Apparently, you are not properly parentage verifying and reporting on the calves that you are registering. You are not alone, there are plenty of other breeders that aren't doing what they think or say they are doing. If you aren't checking the ADCA online pedigree to make sure that their information is current and correct, then you still have some work to do.

December 5 at 10:39pm · Like · 1



LaDena Moss Yes to what Patti Adams says, always go and check the website to make sure your information is correct. Let's just say that I have found my fair share of mistakes and have to follow up with an email to get it corrected.

December 5 at 10:41pm · Edited · Like · 1



Dennis Salyers Every animal on my place and every animal I have sold since the 2013 AGM ( when this was such a hot issue) have been genotyped, but thank you for your attempt to discredit me. ?? If they say sire qualified that means they where qeontyped thank you. There has to be a starting point. Btw as I tag my calves when born it would be extremely hard to confuse mothers.

December 5 at 10:59pm · Like



Patti Adams Dennis Salyers - You are the one claiming that you have parentage verified all of your calves. To the world, your statement means that the sire, the dam, and the calf have all been genotyped, and that the calf's genotype has been compared to its sire and dam of record, and that it has qualified as their offspring. If you are going to make that claim, then you should have the test reports to back it up. That report is the calf's DNA genotype report that says "Sire Qualified and Dam Qualified" in the comment section. If you haven't got that report on each calf, then you haven't parentage verified each calf, so please don't say that you have. You discredit yourself, when you make claims that aren't true.

December 5 at 11:14pm · Like



Dennis Salyers Again I say every animal on my place and every animal born and sold since the 2013 AGM have a genotype on file with the ADCA. Bred cows and heifers sold in which calves are born with my prefix neither I or the ADCA mandates they be genotyped. I cannot genotype animals I do not own. Why are we at odds with this?

December 5 at 11:24pm · Like



Cassandra Coleman Mennone My girls are ONLY sire verified but I had all the tests run myself. The bull came to me Parentage tested G3 and all my calves will be crossed to BOTH parents. I could not do the girls mother as she is dead now. But I did have them put on file so I could be sure who carries what! And being that I plan to tattoo them while small this will be no problem... If I do them a day or two after they are born I will have no problem with that!

December 6 at 12:13am · Like



Judy Sponaugle REPEAT: in response to previous comment and response. ADCA does *NOT* require parentage verification on male offspring of bulls that are genotyped. Recently I inquired of a member of the genetics committee why a registered genotyped bull from a registered genotyped bull was reported as "genotype" on file rather than sire qualified and if it was because it did not qualify. i was told there was no requirement (I have it in writing from a Director) and that the ADCA registrar has been advised NOT to require this as well. I was told this was discussed in a phone conference so Directors here who have commented otherwise must have missed that discussion? Let me repeat this is ludicrous as it completely negates the purpose do DNA genotyping.

December 6 at 2:13am · Like · 1



Judy Sponaugle Rya you are correct. Only parentage confirmed offspring of tested non carriers are obligates. Legacy provides certificates of obligate status and reports it on the registration certificates as well. Simple matter. It does not require a rocket science degree for a cattle owner to read the certificate

December 6 at 2:19am · Like · 2



Judy Sponaugle Little Heritage Farm: Legacy is the only genotype registry in the western hemisphere ( including international Dexters for owners who would like to make a permanent international record of their genotyped Dexter for a minimal fee). All animals in Legacy must be genotyped but the cost of the genotype and registration ( depending on choice ) is either $30 or $35 total. Legacy set up the first Dexter cattle genotype database at UC-Davis in 2004 and asked both ADCA and PDCA to participate in a joint effort . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

December 6 at 2:40am · Edited · Like · 1



Sally Coad Judy Sponaugle have any directors commented on this thread? I know that we have had a different experience when we had a bull calf genotyped at UC Davis (but his sire owned by someone else was on file at TAM) - I was contacted by the registrar stating he could not be registered until he was sire qualified. So took a couple of weeks but got the owner to transfer the sires genotype to UC Davis and got it done.

December 6 at 6:50am · Like



Shaun Ann Lord I happen to be one of those breeders Patti mentioned who genotype and parent verify but DO NOT send the results to the ADCA. It isn't mandated, I paid for the tests, they belong to me and I don't regard them as any business of the ADCA. That might change depending what the Board decides, but for now, that's how it is. The information is between me and the buyer, all on the up and up. It works quite well by telling buyers DNA info when they contact me, and, when they buy, the U.C. at Davis entire testing file goes with them and their new Dexter. It isn't mine anymore. I have no idea if it determines the sale of a heifer or not and at this point really don't care. I do know very few new buyers go to the pedigree site and decode a registration. I know that too because they have no idea what the tiny P and H mean. I establish a relationship with a newbie and all paperwork is on the table with questions answered to the best of my experience. This site only has a small percentage of owners participating........I'll bet the silent majority aren't into testing based on owners I know who never even genotyped their bulls. Ya really think they are going to test females? The officers and Board themselves have been lax with testing and genotyping.

December 6 at 7:40am · Edited · Like · 1



Lesa Kinnamon Reid I'm still working on PV-ing our herd. I just got all our breeding adults genotyped and qualified to their parents, where possible. Some of the adults I bought from other breeders could not be qualified to both parents because of various circumstances, but every breeder I have contacted has been MORE than willing to do what they could to help me get this done. Now I can genotype and sire & dam qualify all our Kirkhaven calves . . . and register/genotype/qualify the newest babies. The whole process has taken quite a bit of time and effort. But now EVERY Kirkhaven calf will be genotyped and sire+dam qualified . . . and it will be very easy to do. We have 13 breeding cows & 2 bulls right now. 8 or 9 more heifers will be joining our breeding fields as our Kirkhaven heifers mature. Knowing that we will be a fully verified herd makes me happy.

December 6 at 8:05am · Like · 2



Mary Jane Phifer Same here- all are genotyped/PV'd and each calf too... It does make for peace of mind and transparency.

December 6 at 8:06am · Like · 2



Karrie Winebrenner Why make everything so difficult and confusing? Concerning PHA and chondro, Every registered Dexter is 1 of 3 things: neg, pos or unknown ( untested, or tested and unreported) Very simple. There is no need for a tier or rating system. Obligate Status is only awarded to fully parentage verified animals. Anything less is an assumption and has no place here. no exceptions. A fully parentage verified Dexter has been tested and found to be the genetic offspring of the listed parents. There is no need to re-test, the status is already known.

December 6 at 9:15am · Like · 1



Lesa Kinnamon Reid Karrie Winebrenner...what if fullt parentage verified animals come from animals lusted as non-carriers...but no test has been run on those parents or any predecessors to verify their non-carrier status (they are non-carrier by accepted pedigree)?

December 6 at 9:41am · Like



Lesa Kinnamon Reid Goodgrief...FULLY parentage vetified, LISTED as non-carriers...sorry about the typos

December 6 at 9:42am · Like



Karrie Winebrenner Instead of just mandating PV, why not work with the membership instead. You are talking about forcing something on people that they don't understand and don't want. You are adding to their expenses and work load. There will be push back, and it is not going to be pretty. EDUCATE AND OFFER INCENTIVES --- You (ADCA) want female genotyping across the board. OK ! Where is the incentive program?? Where is the education as to why this is a good step for the breed and for them personally?? My herd is complete but I did not do it because I was forced to. I chose to because I was educated on the facts and I chose to take advantage of the one cost Genotyping /Parental Verification /Legacy Registration program and the Obligate Program offered through Legacy/UCD. My initial investment is done and I am now reaping the benefits.

December 6 at 9:52am · Like · 2



Dennis Salyers If Texas AM is so bad and UC Davis is the bomb then why is the ADCA still promoting the use of Texas AM. There again we are looking at additional cost to transfer and additional testing at UC Davis $$$$$$$. What would it cost for the ADCA to transfer all Texas am files and records at one time.

December 6 at 11:51am · Like · 1



Donna Jenkins Karrie Winebrenner , it is Very important to get PV manatory because this can prove who the actual perents are to any animal you would buy....I bought a cow calf pair years ago and I am just now finding out , the calf has the wrong sire!....And up until now , they still can't find the right sire......And UCD des offer a discount to do three tests....If femaleDNA had been mandatory at the same time sires were, I don't think we would have had as much of a mess as there is now....There are a lot of animals that DON'T match up due to people just put all their animals together and not knowing who is breeding who, and yes there are fence jumpers out there, but for what ever th reason, some of these animals are not matching up....I test with UCD now, I had started with A&M, but UCD offers a discount if you put the ADCA code in...That's when I found errors.....I hav had two straightened out but after 7 months , I am still waiting to hear one this last one.....I know from now on, I will never buy another animal UNLESS it IS parentage verified!......I hoep you will think about this ....It is not fair to the buy to buy aniamls who have the right sire and dam.....Thanks....Donna

December 6 at 11:54am · Like · 2



Karrie Winebrenner Hi Donna, I agree with you, parental verification is important. Like I said all my Dexters are genotyped and with full parentage verification except for one cow that is sire only because I don't own the dam. Every calf we sell here is sold fully tested, genotyped, fully parentage verified and dual registered ADCA/Legacy. I would love to see a fully genotyped/PV herd in this country. But it has to be done right. You just can't mandate something like this without first taking steps to help the membership first understand why and then make every attempt to help them accomplish it. This is a big thing. If the ADCA is really serious about accomplishing this goal, we need to quit talking about it and get to work. Set up a heifer program: registration/ genotyping/pv for one cut rate fee. Throw in a test or two to really get peoples' attention. For older cows that are already registered offer cut-rate testing; be creative. But most importantly show them the many benefits they will receive in future. Make them want to do it, don't force them. Just think of all the trouble that we had when genotyping bulls was made mandatory, and most breeders only had one.

December 6 at 4:23pm · Like · 2



Karrie Winebrenner Lesa Kinnamon Reid, Your question is a good one. IMO If the point of all this is to get accurate records then the answer would have to be that to be listed as either positive or negative the animal would have to be either tested themselves or have obligate status with full parental verification. Obligate's of untested animals are just that. An animal that has not been tested would have to be listed as unknown. UNLESS we choose to allow ALL breeders to list an animal's status without any testing or documentation. This is one of the reasons why so many of us have been cautioning breeders to really think all this through. If all this goes through it is going to affect a lot of animals and people.

December 6 at 5:01pm · Like · 1



Shaun Ann Lord I still worry about the numbers that won't be tested. I saw it with bulls. Early on it was evident too many bulls were not going to be tested but still used. I bought one in Pennsylvania and knew from the day I laid eyes on the bull that it was going to be up to me to make the effort, absorb all costs. The owner had no intention of pulling tail hairs, didn't know how and wasn't going to do it even if he figured it out. He won't do it on the cows either. Some people in the Association say so be it but I don't like genetics lost and would like rules/mandates as straightforward as possible and education of breeders not as anti genotyping as some out there.

December 6 at 6:19pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams For those of you out there that aren't doing full parentage verification (sire and dam qualified), prior to registration, did you know that nearly all of the Dexter cattle registries in the world require full parentage qualification in order to register a purebred Dexter? How come they can accomplish this and the ADCA is having issues with it???

December 6 at 8:18pm · Like · 4



Lynda Lacroix Because the ADCA has never required it and no one likes being told they have to do now because the BOD says so when they didn't have a say in it. That and since it hasn't ever been done, you're wanting modern day people to 'start' a new system (for the ADCA) in a time when the economy is tough.

December 6 at 8:28pm · Like



Maureen Pettersson Is this done by taking tail hairs or talking a blood sample?

December 6 at 8:44pm · Edited · Like



Patti Adams Mostly from tail hairs. AI bulls can be done with either semen sample or by tail hairs.

December 6 at 8:45pm · Like



Maureen Pettersson Microsatelite or SNP

December 6 at 8:46pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams Microsatelite markers are used at UC Davis VGL and at Texas A&M

December 6 at 8:46pm · Like



Maureen Pettersson Are there any noises for a move towards the SNP testing in the future?

December 6 at 8:48pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams No, not yet.

December 6 at 8:48pm · Like



Maureen Pettersson Interesting!! As there are plans to move to this in New Zealand in the next couple of years. It will mean retesting ALL current bulls and semen - expensive!

December 6 at 8:50pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams I wish that we were using SNPs, if we were, then we could probably do multiple tests (PHA, Chondro, Color, Polled/Horned)) etc. at the same time as testing for parentage, and all for one very affordable price.

December 6 at 8:53pm · Like · 1



Maureen Pettersson I agree but it would be a great expence and inconvenience for the members. How many current members are there in the ADCA?

December 6 at 8:59pm · Edited · Like



Denise Harvey In Australia it is mandatory to do PV, and bulls MUST be tested, with status recorded for PHA and Chondro (both 1 and 2... because the uncommon one is in the NZ and Aus Herds only)

December 6 at 9:04pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams About 1,500 current members. Some with only a few cows.

December 6 at 9:10pm · Like · 1



Maureen Pettersson IN NZ we have around 300 members at present and most with small herds. But there are only 4,5 million people in NZ, so not too bad for our little country.

December 6 at 9:15pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams Part of the problem here is educating people on the value of doing this testing. Another part of the problem is that the ADCA leadership (officers and Directors) have not done much of this testing themselves, so they aren't fluent in explaining it.

December 6 at 9:19pm · Like



Maureen Pettersson We started Bull DNA profiling about 7 years ago and so far everything has gone without too many problems. It costs around $30 (NZ) to get this done. In 2012 we were told by our provider for testing that they were changing to SNP's so we were set to down that path then to find out that no other country was going to do this, we found another provider. If it happens again it needs to be compatable with other countries because we import semen as I am sure the US members do as well. If you bought 20 viles of semen from a top bull @$100 each and then you found out that you had to sacrifice one for retesting. I would be fuming.

December 6 at 9:27pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams Before sacrificing a vial of semen for testing, ask for tail hairs from the person that is exporting the semen. There is no reason for the purchaser of the semen to have to pay for this testing, it should be the responsibility of the seller of semen.

December 6 at 9:35pm · Like



Maureen Pettersson Couple of things !!! What if the bull is dead?? Also why should they lose money for the test when it isnt required in their country??

December 6 at 9:37pm · Like



Maureen Pettersson Plus some are sitting in New Zealand semen banks waiting to be used in the future. As I am sure there is in other countries around the world.

December 6 at 9:39pm · Edited · Like



Denise Harvey Judy do you realise the world is bigger than your country - before you say stuff like youve just said, I suggest you do a little more research INTERNATIONALLY first!

December 6 at 9:42pm · Like · 2



Patti Adams Maureen - the seller of the semen is the one making a profit, they should be the one responsible for the testing required by any country that they are exporting to. I've exported semen to New Zealand and to Canada and all of the testing costs have been mine to bear.

December 6 at 9:56pm · Like



Maureen Pettersson So you would be willing to pay an extra $60++ for a SNP's test if required for overseas buyers as well as the Micro test you need for your own DNA profiling? There is also the fact that most companies that test require tissue or blood samples for the SNP's test.

December 6 at 10:01pm · Like



Patti Adams At the very least, I would provide extra straws of semen and pay for the testing for the country that I was exporting to. Tissue samples are not a problem, we can take an ear notch very easily.

December 6 at 10:04pm · Like · 2



Maureen Pettersson Great topic and its been great to have been included

December 6 at 10:05pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams Glad to hear from you!

December 6 at 10:06pm · Like · 1



Judy Sponaugle Denise - Indeed . . .I have Dexter friends in a few of them. I am not sure to what you refer. Clarify YOUR comment please and I will respond.

December 6 at 10:22pm · Like



Judy Sponaugle Sally - Directors comment on here? LOL! I thought they were instructed not to participate on public media. I believe one made just that comment the other day. I was told that the registrar was instructed NOT to require parentage verification on the bulls. Look. it is a gambit of ADCA. It makes no sense, but they desperately want to require full parentage verification. . . . . . without losing any money from members. . .. so all of this is manipulation and spin to get members to be responsible for the decision.\

December 6 at 10:27pm · Like · 1



Sally Coad Judy Sponaugle - you are the one that said "I was told this was discussed in a phone conference so Directors here who have commented otherwise must have missed that discussion?"- so I was wondering what Director had commented. If you are talking about the current registrar (as opposed to years ago)- you got bad information. The only Bulls that have been added in the past couple of years that are only "genotype on file" are PDCA animals - that don't have a full ADCA registration. Calves that were previously with PDCA must be sire qualified in order to be registered ADCA. The only time a bull might show as G2 is if it is an older bull that was PDCA, not being registered with ADCA, but being put in the system because someone wants to register a calf ADCA and not PDCA. So in that circumstance we allow G2 (geno on file) because those older bulls are not registered ADCA but their calves are going to be. We still would require the bull calves to be sire qualified even if their sire is not registered ADCA.

Yesterday at 6:25am · Like



Sally Coad I had 8 hours drive time yesterday and another 8 today .., so lots of time to think -but I believe in my mind- I have come up with a solution to the problems at hand. But it's far too lengthy to put up here and honestly I have been out of the political ring for so long- I'm not sure the current admin is ready for such a solution.., maybe they are. Next step? I am literally starting my truck up to get on the road..,

Yesterday at 6:41am · Like · 2



Midhill Farm Well that's a teaser Sally. Hope u get time to post it.

Yesterday at 7:05am · Like · 1



Sally Coad Fueling up.., I'm considering when I get back to TN starting a whole new temporary FB group to go through it all and get feedback. But it would take time to put together. And certain steps would have to be successful.., Full tank.., on the way home:)

Yesterday at 7:09am · Like · 2



Karrie Winebrenner Patti Adams you said something a few lines up about wishing we used SNP's so we could get all our our tests, genotype and pv from one sample. I do through UCD/Legacy.

Yesterday at 10:20am · Like



Donna Jenkins Sally if you start a new group, be sure to let us all know so I can join.....

Yesterday at 12:35pm · Like · 1



Patti Adams Karrie - UC-Davis VGL does use SNP testing for some traits, but not for parentage genotyping. For parentage genotyping (aka DNA Genotype, Cattle Parentage and Genetic Marker Report) UC-D VGL uses the following microsatellite markers: BM181, BRR, ETH10, RM006, TGLA122, TGLA53, BM1824, CYP21, ETH225, RM067, TGLA126, BM2113, ETH003, INRA23, SPS115, and TGLA227.

Yesterday at 12:52pm · Like



Midhill Farm It's been good to get some differing point of views, ideas and suggestions. One thing I thought of this morning is this. Is whatever thought or idea you suggested based on what you'd like to do personally, or based on what is best for the Dexter breed to move forward? It's very hard to step away from your own likes and wants and vote on something you may not personally agree with in order to do what is right for the breed.

Yesterday at 1:59pm · Like · 2



Little Heritage Farm I think it has to be what is right for the breed. It will be an added financial burden to many of us, but that is the nature of the beast. If you want to have something and do it right it comes with a cost! I don't see any other way around it??

Yesterday at 2:10pm · Like · 3



Shaun Ann Lord I agree with Carol, what's right for the breed.......but there are so many variables with testing Dexter's I think it will be difficult even getting everyone on the same page as to what's best for the breed. Opinions are all over the place with the majority of breeders not responding. Takes leadership and that has been in short supply especially when it comes to setting an example.

Yesterday at 2:34pm · Like · 2



Patti Adams Recording accurate pedigrees is a first order priority, so requiring full parentage verification (Sire and Dam Qualify), prior to accepting a registration, has got to come first, in my opinion.

Yesterday at 2:40pm · Like · 4



Karrie Winebrenner Thanks Patti, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that all those tests couldn't be performed from one tail hair sample. That's why I was so confused.

Yesterday at 2:48pm · Like · 1



Karrie Winebrenner And as always, what's best for the breed comes first. That's why I think it is so much wiser to get people to want to come over to your side instead of just mandating something and trying to force it upon them. People are human. No-one really likes to be forced. Work with them instead. Shouldn't we at least try??

Yesterday at 2:51pm · Like · 1



Little Heritage Farm I agree Patti Adams it is where it should begin. Already working on my little herd one animal at a time.

23 hrs · Edited · Like · 2



Patti Adams www.quoteswave.com/picture-quotes/381850

21 hrs · Like · 1



Dennis Salyers What happens to those animals already registered that cannot be PV'd or the breeder whom registered animals incorrectly or the member whom owns animals with papers in hand that later find out the pedigrees are incorrect. Is it a policy for future registrations or for all animals currently registered? How far should we go back? Am I reading this right that we can register bulls without genotype but we can not register there offspring?

21 hrs · Like



Lynda Lacroix I really wish you guys could step back away from your opinions and read this thread. Best for the breed? In whose opinion? Split off and start another registry because you don't like the rules of the current one? Or because everyone won't jump on your bandwagon? So you'll just pick up your bag of marbles and go somewhere else to play. Yeah... you're doing what's best for the breed. I got jumped on because I dared to question the mandated testing or the tier ranking but no one seemed to realize I wasn't questioning the need to at least do PV testing if not the other tests (those I think should be the breeders choice to a certain extent because PV would give the buyers the heads up as to the background of their calf). I was questioning the costs and timing. Everything we do today is regulated somehow someway so I do not have a problem with the BOD to stipulate mandatory PV on bulls and cows with a reasonable start date...say Jan 1 of 2016 for instance allowing us time to budget the added expenses. Additional time could be granted on specific animals where there is a problem. I think the tier ranking is wrong period because it gives the appearance that one level is better than another. I think it should simply be (PHA-neg A pos B) (Chond-C or NC) or NT for not tested. Everyone can understand that without a lengthy legend. Once PV is in place then work on the other testing but don't try to do too much at one time. You're going to lose people one way or another but don't force them out with all this bickering and mandated testing or else threaten them with a poor ranking. Whether large herd or small, we will have to absorb the PV testing for the good of the breed but don't try to make Dexters a rich man's breed or we all lose. You talk about only a handful of people who will talk about this on here so you wonder what will the rest of the members will do??? They will do what is best for the breed and what is required by the association. What they won't do is get into a pissing match online trying to make themselves look good or others look bad. You're not fixing anything by doing this.

21 hrs · Edited · Like · 3



Patti Adams Lynda - Anyone that purchases registered cattle wants to believe that the pedigrees of their herd are the actual breeding record for those animals. Unfortunately, that is frequently not the case, and many errors have been made and continue to be made in the registration of Dexter cattle in the United States. In this day and age, these types of errors are totally preventable with the proper use of parentage verification (sire and dam qualified), prior to registration. It is our gift and our responsibility, as the present day breeders of registered Dexter cattle, to the future Dexter breeders, to get it right and to keep it right. We need to have pedigrees that are accurate for the registered Dexter breeding stock in the United States, now and for the future of this wonderful cattle breed.

19 hrs · Like · 2



Deborah Hungate Botruff ANY AND ALL breeds of ALL critters that are not PV'd are suspect, it's not just our Dexter cattle but every breed of every animal that walks this earth, if we are here, raising these animals, we have to do what is in the best interest of our breed.....slow implementation is paramount, put it in place the way AQHA did for mares years ago, if you were born after 2015, then DNA must be on file, then the next year, they backed it up another year to 2014....those weren't the years but that's the way they did it, I was hit with a couple mares a year, not a difficult task where doing 50 would have been. It has to be simplistic, understandable, slowly implemented. Most folks will go ahead and get on board, all mine are done already. Now expense to do calves is minimal. I do wish our association would have one fee for initial registration either for the calf to stay at home or be transferred. Most of these animals are transferred multiple times so if they would waive the transfer fee on initial registration, there's some xtra $$ to put toward testing, imo.

18 hrs · Edited · Like · 2



Cynthia Butler It's good to have parent verification but affording to do so on several animals is out of the question. I will not be able to afford it and will just keep the animals I have and the registry will lose these animals.

18 hrs · Like



Lynda Lacroix Patti, you're right about having to get it done but done fairly to all involved. Deborah Hungate Botruff is also correct as to the need for a starting point. This is a reply I just sent to someone else, "I have a cow that is 13 years old and one daughter I kept but have sold 3 others. Her mom and dad I'm sure are deceased. The board is going to have to make arrangements for that. They cannot force all Dexters into the freezer because of a new requirement. At some point they have to choose a starting point. I can genotype all mine and their future calves can be pv'd then but I can't do beyond mine unless the owners of the sire and dam of both have their genotype on file. My bull is listed as genotype on file for his sire but not the dam. They have to accept that. Genotype all current and forthcoming calves. PV all future calves. There will be no way to fill in the gaps in the past if the animals are dead. It's just a fact the ADCA is going to have to get over." Using a system such as the one Deborah mentioned would allow the members to fill in the system and get as complete a record as possible. Current breeders will have to bite the bullet to a certain extent but not to a point that they will leave or be pushed out of the ADCA. All other testing should be recommended but the owners will have to decide for now on their own unless you can come up with a more economical testing package for all breeding age animals (for now). Get the PV record initiated and working and then start on the other testing. If it is recommended and the BOD could work out something to cut the costs a little for the breeders taking the hit now, then as time go by there will be fewer to conform to new standards.

18 hrs · Edited · Like · 1



Maureen Pettersson The main animal that needs to be certified is the bull - he goes out to all the girls and can produce many, many offspring, especially if his semen is frozen and sent around the country/world. A cow may only have a couple of calves and if the calf is tagged early it will be obvious which belongs to which cow. Why dont you just start with the obvious - THE BULL and then go from there?

18 hrs · Like



Patti Adams Cynthia - We started parentage verification with our herd several years ago. Our oldest females are "Genotype on File", and their offspring are "Sire and Dam Qualified". Once you have genotyped the cows and bull in your herd, it only costs $25 to parentage verify the calves that you intend to register. You don't have to parentage verify the steers or any offspring that aren't being registered. Since you have a year to register your heifers, you can do it one at a time and spread out the cost of the testing. It really can be done with persistence and within a budget.

18 hrs · Like · 1



Patti Adams Maureen Pettersson - The ADCA already requires bulls to be genotyped.

18 hrs · Like · 1



Maureen Pettersson OK

18 hrs · Like · 1



Cynthia Butler Understand that I a just a few cows/heifers my bulls on file. I am limited on funds new to this registration. I have 3. Cow/ heifers that I transfer from pdca and cannot afford to be searching down the old cows parentage. I understand it is for the good of the breed but funds in this household are limited.

17 hrs · Like



Patti Adams Cynthia - If you genotype your cows (permanent record), they will be shown as "Genotype on File", and your bull is already genotyped. Then, all of the calves that you produce and register can be parentage verified, "Sire and Dam Qualified", and you go from there. Your herd is assured of being properly registered from that day forward.

17 hrs · Like · 1



Cynthia Butler I have not started genotyping my cows yet just managed to afford to have them transferred. Had to first reg. Them pdca then had to get them adca. If have have to have them all tested "right now" I will just keep my little cows and go from there.

17 hrs · Like



Patti Adams Cynthia - Take a look at your herd in the ADCA Online Pedigree. Much of the testing has already been done. Your bull, Sweetgum Colonel Reb has been genotyped and so has his sire. His dam, XL Farms Pippi has not been genotyped, but her sire and dam have both been genotyped, so she can be genotyped and "Sire and Dam Qualified". Shome Lee 24 has been genotyped. It may cost you much less than you think to get this done!

17 hrs · Like · 3



Cynthia Butler It's my cows side that is the problem. She is pdca brought to adca. If she don't test out my heifers won't because they are her daughters.

17 hrs · Like



Patti Adams Your oldest cow, PCC Anna Belle, is a 2007 cow, so neither her sire or dam has been genotyped and that's not a problem because it wasn't required back then for her to be registered. If you genotype Anna Belle, then her record will show "Genotype On File" and her offspring can then be "Sire and Dam Qualified".

17 hrs · Like · 2



Cynthia Butler OK I new am this. Now how do you go about testing.

17 hrs · Like



Patti Adams You genotype your oldest animals first. Then, after you have their genotypes and lab case numbers, you genotype their offspring and ask the lab to do Parentage Analysis using the genotype of the sire and the dam (which you have the lab case numbers for). Here is a link to UC-Davis VGL, where you can set-up your own account and do your own testing: www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/cattle.php

17 hrs · Like



Cynthia Butler Thank you.

17 hrs · Like



Lynda Lacroix I have been contacted by others in the same position. No way to track down the parentage because the parentage is deceased. My bull's sire's genotype is supposed to be on file but the dam's isn't and to the best of my knowledge she is no longer living or has been sold to someone that doesn't care about even paying to transfer her registration. The current owner listed for her sold his entire herd several years ago. Her only registered progeny was my bull back in 2008. My oldest cow is 13 and her sire is deceased along with grand sire/dam on both sides so their might be a slim chance of finding the mom still alive at age 18 but her last registered calf was in 2005 so not likely. I should be able to genotype my breeding stock and then PV the calves starting with them but there is no way to PV my breeding stock. There has to be a starting point but people are talking about digging up bones to get dna to genotype parents of their breeding stock in order to PV them. There is no way I can PV my oldest breeding stock. The next 2 oldest have their sires with genotype on file but neither dam have a registered calf for the past 3 or 4 years. It's possible only bull calves that became steers but just as likely they are deceased as well or sold off due to age. My 3 youngest girls are from each of my 3 older cows so if I can't PV the older cows, I can't PV my younger ones past their immediate sire/dam and none of their offspring unless I can start with genotyping my older breeding stock and bull and then from then on, it would be simple to PV all future calves (if I can get the testing done but that's another story).

17 hrs · Like



Patti Adams Here is a link to the ADCA form (there is some savings on tests, if you go through the ADCA when you test at UC-Davis VGL): www.dextercattle.org/.../ucd/ADCASampleSubmission.pdf

17 hrs · Like



Patti Adams Lynda - You don't have to parentage verify your older animals, just genotype them and then parentage verify all of the offspring that you intend to register as breeding stock (bull calves don't need to be parentage verified if they aren't used for breeding before castrating them for steers).

17 hrs · Edited · Like



Lynda Lacroix But when you send in the genotype and they tell you it doesn't match something on file then it throws a monkey wrench in things correct? I'm assuming that because of all the people I've read in different places having to track down the correct sire/dam, wanting to find possible graves, dig up bones for dna...

17 hrs · Like · 1



Patti Adams Lynda - When you request parentage analysis for a calf and have the lab compare the calf's genotype to the genotype of its sire and the genotype of its dam, if either the sire or the dam are not a match, the lab will report either "Sire Excluded" or "D...See More

12 hrs · Like · 1



Little Heritage Farm Lynda Lacroix, I think that is the whole point of PV because they may find that the information is incorrect. If we don't do it we are sweeping the problem under the rug. I am sure that some of us may find that the animal we "thought" we bought may i...See More

7 hrs · Like · 1



Judy Sponaugle In 2004 ADCA leadership were asked to participate in and support the establishment of DNA testing and a Dexter database. If it wasn't the idea of leadership. . . . they couldn't support or cooperate with it. It was suggested that one way to begin the process would be to require tail hairs be submitted at the time of registration and archive the tail hairs. Then. . . if in the future an issue arose. . . .those tail hairs would be available. ( But then. . .ADCA might have to pay for a test. . . goodness forbid so they would not entertain that idea either). Then the Legacy PURPLE pedigrees began to expand across the breed. . . .and an awareness of the benefits of having parentage confirmed herds. . . benefits not even once addressed by your leadership to sell this idea. . .and like the PDCA of today. . . .ADCA discovered they were behind the 8-ball and to play catch up they began requiring the testing of bulls. Their procedure was a total waste of time especially since they do NOT require offspring be parentage confirmed to the sire. Just tested. It is only through the wisdom of individual owners and their personal and private efforts that the large number of animals in the breed are DNA typed. . ..and it is only through the work and financial efforts of Legacy that so many of the older traditional animals in the breed have DNA archived at UCD. This is a treasure trove for the breed and many breeders. There are ways to insure integrity in the breed without creating a hardship for owners whose expendable income is limited. Those who are forcing this issue are forcing an agenda. . . . . . it is not about concern for YOU the breeder. . . . or even the breed.

[redridge]

Which FB page is this from? I'm on so many I have up trying to keep up

[jamshundred]

Sheri,

I think it was posted originally on the Region 11 site - Midhill page?  It may have moved over to Enthusiasts as most people who are friended tend to show up there.  My base feeling is that is was on region 11 though.

Judy