Sheppy article musing

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

I was thinking of you today and all those color discussions we used to have ages ago!   The Sheppy article is based on color issues.   Dun/Woodmagic   Red/Shadwell   White/Pardon Charley Pudding

For the moment my thoughts were circling the red information you discussed in the past so this musing was connected to Shadwell Robert/Cornahir Outlaw.

The dark colored faces on the red cattle in the US supposedly stem from Cornahir Outlaw.   The first question relates to the "little red cow" Mrs. Roberts said was the granddam of Shadwell Robert.  What type of red genetics of what breed "might" be connected to the Cornahir descendents dark faces?  Or connected to that question. . . what breeds of cattle are normall known to throw dark faces.  I can think of Jersey and maybe Brown Swiss?  Beyond that. .  .blank mind.  So if. . . . . just if. . . .  .we begin with the Sheppy premise and work towards it or away from it. . . let's see what direction this takes.   The other comment that Sheppy uses regarding the outcrossing is that there were two "types" of red in this bull, a genetic impossibility he states.  Well, we know there is wild red (E+) and true red (e/e), and animals can be E+/e right?  Or wrong?
This is something I have simply not been interested in or given any thought to.     Well, if an animal can be E+/e than Sheppy must be discussing something else relating to two types of red and I have no idea what that would be.  Do you?

Judy

[legendrockranch]

Sorry for butting in, but Kerry cattle also carry the E+ plus or little e red color.  Hidden colors can hide for years and years and years until the right opportunity presents itself.

On the other forum Patti just posted a picture of a red Kerry that carried the E+ gene, which shows sometimes dark faces. Even though the breed itself only acknowledges blacks.

Just wanted to add that the Tarentaise breed of cattle also can have the E+ features.

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vache-tarentaise-et-le-lac-de-roseland-ferme--6614e1T650.jpg

Notice the horns, white with black tips.

[genebo]

The ADCA doesn't display the EXT colors, but Legacy does, for those who submit their test results.

There are 260 red animals registered with Legacy. Only 18 of them display EXT color results.

Eight are listed as e/e

Nine are listed as E+/e

There are none listed as E+/E+

There is one listed as Ed/Ed (black) even though its color is listed as red. That needs to be checked.

I know that Wee Gaelic Ms Fermoy was E+/E+, even though it isn't displayed on her information page.

This is approximately the same results I have been finding since about 2008, when I started looking for Traditional E+/E+ Dexters, especially a bull.

E+/E+ is extremely scarce. Among those whose results are listed, there is approximately the same number of E+/e and e/e animals.

Lucifer of Knotting is one that is listed. He is e/e.

[cascade]

Only two pigments exist in mammals:

Eumelanin (Black/brown)
Pheomelanin (red/orange/yellow)

The Extension (E) locus has three allele choices:

E+ = Wild type (the original allele in wild cattle) =  allow for both eumelanin (black) pigment and pheomelanin (red) pigment
ED = Dominant Black = Flood the animal in eumelanin (black) pigment and mostly overwhelm any pheomelanin  (red)
e = recessive red = mostly mutes production of most eumelanin (black pigment), so leaves pheomelanin to show well.


The Agouti (A) Locus is less well understood in cattle.  The alleles at the A-Locus generally code for patterns of red and black (more black here, less black there).  There is likely a pattern allele at the A-locus that codes for dark face in cattle.    Because E+ at the Extension locus is the only allele that provides a lot of both red and black pigment, the pattern genes at the A-locus would remain mostly hidden in animals with D (black) or e (true red) at the extension locus.

So blacks (ED) and true reds (e) may have the dark face genes, but the phenotype can't show the dark face because of the lack of an E+ gene to allow plenty of both pigments.

It would be interesting to see if UC Davis knows of any tests for A-Locus genes in cattle.   Longhorn cattle folks dabble in the A-locus.

Other color loci are the Brown (B) locus that codes for Dun in Dexters....  And the Brindle (Br) Locus that codes for brindle in various breeds of cattle

There may also be some other minor loci (with various allele choices) involved as well.

I'd guess that the dark face gene (likely at the Agouti Locus) exists in many many breeds of cattle at lower or higher frequencies, but can mostly only be seen in those with E+ genes.

The wild cattle ancestors of all European Cattle were the Aurochs and they were very dark faced
They were mostly all E+E+ A+A+   (A+ = Wild-Type Agouti pattern which would make the animal VERY dark with some red highlights).

Here's what the Aurochs (wild cattle ancestor) looked like... notice calves born lighter and then darken with age

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

Its always obvious I have too many pies and not enough fingers!  My brain is a whirling dervish of Dexter stuff.  I had not intended to ignore your response. . . .  .just so much other stuff scattered about to do!   The picture of the cattle. . . . .  I read there was a "Juraissic Park" -type project going on to try and restore the Auroch.  Are the cattle pictured in anyway connected to that?  How DO we know this is what the Auroch was in appearance?  

Wouldn't the Chillingham cattle be closer in appearance and DNA than any other breeding bovine on the planet?  That DNA has been sequestered since the 1600's with some insisting the castle walls have been holding that herd since the 1300's.   

I am still interested in the color. . .. especially again with relation to Ms Fermoy.   Just need to find that moment in time. .  

Judy

[genebo]

I watched the TV special about Hitler's cattle, where he ordered the reconstruction of the Auroch's cattle. Aurochs are the first and only source of all cattle breeds

As many as 8 different breeds of European cattle were used in the breeding program. A premium was placed on ferocious temperament. When they supposedly had reconstructed a breed of cattle that resembled Aurochs, they were turned loose in a forest where rebels lived and were expected to run the rebels out with their aggression.

At the end of WWII, there was no herd left. A guess was made that the rebels ate most of them. Some survived to the point in time where DNA testing came into usage. It was possible to compare the DNA of Hitler's Aurochs against ancient remains of real Aurochs. It was found that Hitler's Aurochs were no closer, genetically, to real Aurochs than most other breeds were. The experiment was a failure.

A few years ago it was announced that a new project to recreate the Auroch would be attempted. This time they would try to use genetic material extracted from ancient remains. Gene splicing might be the term for this. I haven't heard whether this project has had any success or not.

What is driving these efforts to recreate Auroch cattle is the need for genetic material from closer to the pure source. Misguided breeding practices can be remedied if you have a source of older genetics to retreat to. The Swiss Village Foundation has a vault of stored genetic material from all the rare breeds in the US, only to be used in the case of an emergency due to bad breeding practices.

I'm proud to have semen stored there to represent two vital traits of Dexter cattle. One is chondrodysplasia and the other is A2/A2 milk. If the current trends in Dexter breeding wipe out either of these traits, there is a source (30 straws) available to restore them.

When corn was so extensively hybridized, the amount of native, open pollinated corn in this country was so small as to be negligible. A form of corn rust attacked the hybridized corn crops with devastating effect. The rust was a form that corn had been resistant to in the past, but somehow, the hybridization wiped out the immunity. Corn seed farmers had to go deep into Mexico to find a source of the heritage corn that still had the immunity.

If somthing similar happens to Dexter cattle, the Swiss Village Foundation is prepared.

[cascade]

The Aurochs were still around until the 1600's.

"The coat colour of the aurochs can be reconstructed by using historical and contemporary depictions. In his letter to Conrad Gesner (1602), Anton Schneeberger describes the aurochs, a description that agrees with cave paintings in Lascaux and Chauvet. Calves were born a chestnut colour. Young bulls changed their coat colour at a few months' old to a very deep brown or black, with a white eel stripe running down the spine. Cows retained the reddish-brown colour. Both sexes had a light-coloured muzzle"

The Chillingham cattle are quite different looking from the cave paintings and other depictions of the Aurochs, but I'd guess that behaviorally, the Chillingham cattle would be similar.

The term "Wild Type" means, whatever color was predominant in the wild ancestor
E+ = Wild Type at the extension locus and codes for a mix of red and black.

E+ really isn't "red", but rather is a mix of red and black..... But that mix depends heavily on genes at the Agouti Locus and other loci.

If we searched high and low in dexters, we might even find some pure black dexters, born pure black, that are E+E+ at the extension locus and have two recessive full BLACK genes at the Agouti Locus.    These recessive agouti blacks occur in other breeds and there is likely a few of those recessive agouti black genes running around in Dexters at very low frequencies.  Those agouti full blacks would only show on E+E+ so that would make them exceptionally rare.