Post by jamshundred on Jan 14, 2015 15:54:23 GMT
First, This caught my eye on the other thread. . . I am moving it here to comment and start a new thread
QuotePost by genebo
Gene is sooooo right. It just didn't land on my radar until I read this. Ms. Fermoy was the "matriarch" of the polled cattle in the US for a majority of the bloodlines - most certainly the red polled. This was a remarkable cow and her personality was unique and serene. I never heard her make a sound and she always moved with the same slow and pat gait at my place. Her eyes were deep and soulful and wise beyond cow years.
Her pedigree has been in question for a long time. When I bought Ms. Fermoy I didn't realize she was red. . . . . or have info on her background. . . . . . or know of the rumors. I bought her pedigree for the Legacy genetic preservation and discovered everything else later. The first being when I commented on her on the old DC2 group a Canadian breeder immediately wrote to me and told me she was outcrossed and 1/2 Tarentaise. Then another Canadian breeder told a story of purchasing her along with the rest of her herd but could not get Ms Fermoy across the border because of a reaction to Brucellosis caused by the shot being given late. Fred Chesterley - partner-in-import to the Canadian breeder who originally purchased her finally ended up with her and she was used in the polled breeding program. There have been constant insinuations of her being outcrossed and then a member of P&G for ADCA got her DNA markers ( without permission) and on a public chat group commented on a "unique" marker the insinuation of her heritage was made yet again. I straddled the fence and I personally leaned toward the rumors. . . . . Gene has not wavered. . . he believed her to be exactly as recorded. Not being able to know the reality, not being able to have her carry a pregnancy, and with her age ( late teens) working against us. . . . a decison was made to have her flushed. IF her pedigree was correct. . . . . she was the ONLY red cow in America ( and I believe the world) that had a recorded pedigree back to the Irish imports. Too rare and valuable to lose. It was an investment of both time and money to try and preserve this bloodline. . . . taken up enthusiastically by Gene and boy has he done a fantastic job. My contributions have been financial and otherwise total failure. . . but Gene has babied along this project with blessed success. I believe because of his devotion to Ms Fermoy.
For years I sought the breeder of this cow. I went through phonebooks across the US trying to find a phone number and contact information - calling a number of people with this surname around the country. The other day I was going through old papers and found something which reminded me of the search and tried again. . . . . and low and behold Google gave me info. He wasn't lost! He wasn't found! He was exactly where he had been at the beginning. I still could not find a phone number so I sat down and wrote to him with my questions and asked if he would call me. He did. I was only out of the house briefly of course . . .. but he left a voicemail. . . . . I called back . . . .left a voicemail. . . and finally late in the evening Sunday he called me. I discovered that when I searched for him previously he had migrated to Arizona but had kept his farm in Washington and family had been living there.
So, I related to Mr. Pacheco the questions and information and doubts passed to me. Mr Pacheco told me he was accused of outcrossing because he had attempted to start a registry for Dexter crosses which flopped. He is in his eight decade and it has been a few years. I could tell there were times he was searching through his memory to connect with my questions. He told me he did NOT outcross Ms. Fermoy. We discussed a number of things. . .. and I will have more questions for him another day I am sure. But I left the conversation and my curiosity kicked in. I pulled up the pedigree of Ms. Fermoy and I sat and thought about the red lines in the US.
We know there was red in the original imports and the Gort and Duv herds had red cattle. ( Early import ancestors). We know there was red in the Peerless herd. These red cattle were lost to the US herd until . . . . . . . . . . .
In the northeast, Sandy Thomas purchased a son of Parndon Bullfinch named Marnell's Black Magic. There came a time when linebreeding produced a red offspring and this was the basis of the red in the Thomas herd in the beginning. Linebred red from Marnell's Black Magic which descended through Peerless. ( One carrier is supposedly Peerless Pirate another Peerless Mite).
In the southeast, a breeder named Rex Kramer, ( Beerex herd) line bred cows from the South Hollow herd ( William Beard) and a red bull calf was born and brought more red to the US herd. This red could have descended from Peerless Pirate or from the red ancestor lines of Parndon Museley through Yom Kippur.
Those animals have brought us all the pre-modern import red. . . .. . . except for Ms. Fermoy.
So I looked at her pedigree closely. . . . . .and what do I find on her parents lines? Peerless Pirate. The same animal who supposedly brought red to the Thomas red lines and likely contributed red genes to the Beerex descendents. . . . was on both sides of the Ms Fermoy pedigree and both sides of the sire.
Isn't that all very interesting! One still has the DNA marker question and there are actually two markers. . . one in ETH03 and another in ETH 225 which seem unique except to her descendents. However, there are very few animals with the early genetics of Ms Fermoy (1991) or her ancestor bloodlines tested and/or available for comparison. Those markers may have been in numbers of earlier cattle. Every other marker in her genotype is consistent with the digits found in this breed.
None of this is definitive. One day science will give us the answer and if it goes against the preservation effort . . . . at least the effort existed to save something unique and special. It will be even worse for the polled bloodlines for it will add yet another line on the pedigree of introgression. I am now leaning with Gene again.
QuotePost by genebo
You are being sexist in your postings. Give Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy credit for the small size and gentle nature that her Dexter ancestors passed on to her.
She then passed on these fine qualities to her offspring.
Ms. Fermoy was a Legacy qualified Dexter, with roots extending into the past history of US Dexters when she was used as an AI platform for introducing polledness to America. What discordant backgrounds!
It is offensive that she should be so used, and then to have you ascribe her valuable assets to the sire of her unfortunate offspring.
We used to be able to search the registered descendants of Ms. Fermoy on the ADCA on-line pedigree. She is probably the most influential cow in the short history of the Modern cattle. It wasn't until she was NINETEEN years old that she ever had a fullblooded calf sired by a Legacy bull. ALL of her earlier offspring were by Platinum, his son, or Lucifer's grandson.
Next time you want to assign credit for any good trait in the descendants to Platinum, remember that Ms. Fermoy is there. When you want to ascribe the traits of long life and good health to Platinum's descendants, remember Ms. Fermoy, who provided these traits and outlived Platinum by how many years?
"Cherchez la femme!" Alexander Dumas
Genebo
Paradise Farm
paradisedexters.com
She then passed on these fine qualities to her offspring.
Ms. Fermoy was a Legacy qualified Dexter, with roots extending into the past history of US Dexters when she was used as an AI platform for introducing polledness to America. What discordant backgrounds!
It is offensive that she should be so used, and then to have you ascribe her valuable assets to the sire of her unfortunate offspring.
We used to be able to search the registered descendants of Ms. Fermoy on the ADCA on-line pedigree. She is probably the most influential cow in the short history of the Modern cattle. It wasn't until she was NINETEEN years old that she ever had a fullblooded calf sired by a Legacy bull. ALL of her earlier offspring were by Platinum, his son, or Lucifer's grandson.
Next time you want to assign credit for any good trait in the descendants to Platinum, remember that Ms. Fermoy is there. When you want to ascribe the traits of long life and good health to Platinum's descendants, remember Ms. Fermoy, who provided these traits and outlived Platinum by how many years?
"Cherchez la femme!" Alexander Dumas
Genebo
Paradise Farm
paradisedexters.com
Her pedigree has been in question for a long time. When I bought Ms. Fermoy I didn't realize she was red. . . . . or have info on her background. . . . . . or know of the rumors. I bought her pedigree for the Legacy genetic preservation and discovered everything else later. The first being when I commented on her on the old DC2 group a Canadian breeder immediately wrote to me and told me she was outcrossed and 1/2 Tarentaise. Then another Canadian breeder told a story of purchasing her along with the rest of her herd but could not get Ms Fermoy across the border because of a reaction to Brucellosis caused by the shot being given late. Fred Chesterley - partner-in-import to the Canadian breeder who originally purchased her finally ended up with her and she was used in the polled breeding program. There have been constant insinuations of her being outcrossed and then a member of P&G for ADCA got her DNA markers ( without permission) and on a public chat group commented on a "unique" marker the insinuation of her heritage was made yet again. I straddled the fence and I personally leaned toward the rumors. . . . . Gene has not wavered. . . he believed her to be exactly as recorded. Not being able to know the reality, not being able to have her carry a pregnancy, and with her age ( late teens) working against us. . . . a decison was made to have her flushed. IF her pedigree was correct. . . . . she was the ONLY red cow in America ( and I believe the world) that had a recorded pedigree back to the Irish imports. Too rare and valuable to lose. It was an investment of both time and money to try and preserve this bloodline. . . . taken up enthusiastically by Gene and boy has he done a fantastic job. My contributions have been financial and otherwise total failure. . . but Gene has babied along this project with blessed success. I believe because of his devotion to Ms Fermoy.
For years I sought the breeder of this cow. I went through phonebooks across the US trying to find a phone number and contact information - calling a number of people with this surname around the country. The other day I was going through old papers and found something which reminded me of the search and tried again. . . . . and low and behold Google gave me info. He wasn't lost! He wasn't found! He was exactly where he had been at the beginning. I still could not find a phone number so I sat down and wrote to him with my questions and asked if he would call me. He did. I was only out of the house briefly of course . . .. but he left a voicemail. . . . . I called back . . . .left a voicemail. . . and finally late in the evening Sunday he called me. I discovered that when I searched for him previously he had migrated to Arizona but had kept his farm in Washington and family had been living there.
So, I related to Mr. Pacheco the questions and information and doubts passed to me. Mr Pacheco told me he was accused of outcrossing because he had attempted to start a registry for Dexter crosses which flopped. He is in his eight decade and it has been a few years. I could tell there were times he was searching through his memory to connect with my questions. He told me he did NOT outcross Ms. Fermoy. We discussed a number of things. . .. and I will have more questions for him another day I am sure. But I left the conversation and my curiosity kicked in. I pulled up the pedigree of Ms. Fermoy and I sat and thought about the red lines in the US.
We know there was red in the original imports and the Gort and Duv herds had red cattle. ( Early import ancestors). We know there was red in the Peerless herd. These red cattle were lost to the US herd until . . . . . . . . . . .
In the northeast, Sandy Thomas purchased a son of Parndon Bullfinch named Marnell's Black Magic. There came a time when linebreeding produced a red offspring and this was the basis of the red in the Thomas herd in the beginning. Linebred red from Marnell's Black Magic which descended through Peerless. ( One carrier is supposedly Peerless Pirate another Peerless Mite).
In the southeast, a breeder named Rex Kramer, ( Beerex herd) line bred cows from the South Hollow herd ( William Beard) and a red bull calf was born and brought more red to the US herd. This red could have descended from Peerless Pirate or from the red ancestor lines of Parndon Museley through Yom Kippur.
Those animals have brought us all the pre-modern import red. . . .. . . except for Ms. Fermoy.
So I looked at her pedigree closely. . . . . .and what do I find on her parents lines? Peerless Pirate. The same animal who supposedly brought red to the Thomas red lines and likely contributed red genes to the Beerex descendents. . . . was on both sides of the Ms Fermoy pedigree and both sides of the sire.
Isn't that all very interesting! One still has the DNA marker question and there are actually two markers. . . one in ETH03 and another in ETH 225 which seem unique except to her descendents. However, there are very few animals with the early genetics of Ms Fermoy (1991) or her ancestor bloodlines tested and/or available for comparison. Those markers may have been in numbers of earlier cattle. Every other marker in her genotype is consistent with the digits found in this breed.
None of this is definitive. One day science will give us the answer and if it goes against the preservation effort . . . . at least the effort existed to save something unique and special. It will be even worse for the polled bloodlines for it will add yet another line on the pedigree of introgression. I am now leaning with Gene again.
. Just always pick out 2 good names, and the Good Lord will take it from there. 
