Phenotype of Traditional Dexters

[cascade]

1. Bulls MUST be VERY friendly and VERY manageable, with lots of personality

2. Cows MUST be sweet and let us work with their newborn calves (tagging/weighing, etc), and should have lots of personality.

3. Dexters must be COMPACT (not too large, not too small) Bulls between 38" - 44" at 3 years.

4. Dexters must be Black, Dun, or Red... no white other than near udders up to navel (white hairs in tail switch are ok)

5. Dexters must be Healthy and Hardy - can thrive and easily calve WITHOUT much shelter (other than trees/shade). Can thrive without a lot of chemicals, without a lot of vet work, without a lot of shots. Should have STRONG immune systems.

6. Dexters must be Thrifty - can thrive on forage and minerals alone WITHOUT grain supplements.

7. Dexters must be Dual purpose and productive... Beefy, and milky enough, but not so milky that they MUST be milked.

8. Dexters should have Lots of good general cattle conformation (sound udders, sound feet, strong backs, correct legs, good tracking, masculine bulls, etc.)

9. Dexters should be long-lived... Cows should make it to 18+ healthy productive years with no early arthritis, Bulls should make it to 13+ healthy years (if you don't eat them first).

10. While horns look terrific, some folks have been dehorning dexters for eons.... so both horned dexters and dexters without horns are traditional. 

[cascade]

This nice little TRADITIONAL Dexter (non-chondro) has the very famous 42" Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 17 times and Lucifer of Knotting on her pedigree 6 times. This cow and her dam and sire too, perfectly match the traditional dexter phenotype as listed above.   One of her ancestors is the incredible bull, Glencara Finerty.  He was a Lucifer of Knotting son and he was a compact 44" at 12 years of age and was exceptional friendly his entire life.



PS.  Burying your noses in distant pedigrees won't keep your cows and bulls looking and behaving like traditional Dexters.... Ongoing selection for traditional traits is the ONLY way to do it.

[lakeportfarms]

What, nobody took the bait so you have to follow up on your own post?

Not enough for you to co-opt the Dexter name, now you're going to steal the "traditional" Dexter label as well? I think Judy was the person who solidified the definition of a Traditional Dexter, so perhaps she'll chip in with what she thinks about that.

Why even bother with a registry Kirk, if you can call something whatever you like? Are small friendly cattle sold on Craigslist that look like Dexters, Dexters too? Could I breed my traditional bull to an Angus, breed him back again to her daughter, and call it a Dexter. He'll bring the size down a lot since he's out of Woodmagic Hedgehog III genetics.

It would kind of give me pause to believe anything you have to say if you're so loose with your definitions. Nobody is burying our noses in distant pedigrees, we all select for traits that fit the description of traditional Dexters with our Dexters that are already there.

Is this bull a traditional Dexter too? For only a few months old, he's nearly waist high on you. That seems a bit tall don't you think? He's got a 2-1/2 years of growing ahead of him, do you think it's not going to be height, but only down, long, and out the sides?.

[genebo]

Hans,

Have you ever heard of a Downhill Dexter? That's what we call one that is shorter across the shoulders than across the hips.

It is very common. So common that one with a level back is a premium find.

From the pedigrees, it seems that this condition is the result of breeding a small one with a big one. Lots of English import blood.

At one of the big Dexter shows on Missouri a few years back, they measured all of the show entries both front and back. Nearly all of them were Downhill Dexters.

The moral of this story is to stick with the Traditional little cattle that brought us here. Trying to breed the bigger moderns down in size works in a funny way.

[lakeportfarms]

Gene. I hadn't heard the phrase but I was aware of this issue with many Dexters that I have seen.most often in the reds.

[cascade]

Jan 23, 2015 15:44:25 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Gene. I hadn't heard the phrase but I was aware of this issue with many Dexters that I have seen.most often in the reds.

Laws of genetics say that red is an independent gene from any other conformation, so whatever you've observed is a false conclusion.

Are you saying that ALL Dexters that have that flaw should be removed from the registry?

Or are you just saying that even the best of livestock can have some conformational weaknesses that should be corrected?

[cascade]

Phenotype = How the animal appears/behaves

Genotype = The genes the animals carries

Purebred  = Whether the animal is accepted as purebred by a recognized purebred registry or not


All Dexters started as non-dexters in the past century or two, so at least 99.999% of all dexter genes come from other breeds of cattle.

ALL Dexters have scores of non-Dexters in their backgrounds, so it's up to a purebred Registry to decide whether an animal is purebred or not.

So it seems that all we're left with is Phenotype to define a "Traditional" dexter.


So, The only thing  you guys can add to the list of Traditional Dexter Phenotype traits I've listed up at the top is "have a level back" ?.... But I already included that in #8 - Lots of good general cattle conformation.

[lonecowhand]

Cascade, you keep thinking that genes are independent from one another. They are not, when you mix two animals, the genetics from each parent go into the "pot". You have the potential for more expression from either parent as a result, and you cant control which is expressed!

It's a crapshoot!

I have noticed the hind quarters of many polled heifers offered for sale with that trait, and it's not camera angle.
Gene has often mentioned a level top line, I thought he was referring to "not sway backed", but I see there is something else going on here, that one should be aware of.

[Deleted]

So you would throw out the pedigree. Because you say that does not matter.
You have already made it clear you don want to eradicate chondro dexters.
Now you say Phenotype is the only thing that matters.
Well you need to look at some historical pictures. The ones that were photo graft/shown. (the best of the breed)
What were they they were black horned dwarfs.
How many black horned dexters do you have?
I already know you will say all 3 colors are except able and I agree they are but you have eliminated the original predominate color. If looks are the only thing you find important you dont even have that now.

[cascade]

Jan 23, 2015 18:06:19 GMT lonecowhand said:

Cascade, you keep thinking that genes are independent from one another. They are not, when you mix two animals, the genetics from each parent go into the "pot". You have the potential for more expression from either parent as a result, and you cant control which is expressed!

It's a crapshoot!

I have noticed the hind quarters of many polled heifers offered for sale with that trait, and it's not camera angle.
Gene has often mentioned a level top line, I thought he was referring to "not sway backed", but I see there is something else going on here, that one should be aware of.

Genes ARE independent from each other and genes stay independent.  Genes don't blend.  

Mixing genes from two parents together is NOT like pouring two different liquids together.  In the case of liquids, once you pour two liquids together, they're usually permanently blended... but that's NOT how genetics works.

Gene's are like colored beads on a bracelet.  If you take beads from two existing bracelets and make a new bracelet, those beads aren't altered... those beads don't "blend".  Those beads stay independent from each other.

When a mother creates an egg cell, or father creates a sperm cell,  only 50% of each parent's genes are used.   Each generation, 50% of the original parents' genes are left behind.  When genes are left behind, they are completely left behind with NO TRACE.

The Genetics Law of Independent Assortment tells us that genes are independently assorted and that means that the gene that makes a cow red, is transmitted completely independently of all other genes.    Same thing with the polled gene.   The polled gene is completely independent of any other genes for any other conformational features.

The Genetics Law of Independent Assortment tells us we can select for Red, or Polled, while also selecting for perfect backs and perfect conformation and  perfect behavior and perfect Dexter traits.   The genes for color and horned status have no linkage to other conformational features.   So it doesn't matter if a cow is horned or polled or black or red, you can independently select for correct conformation.

Meanwhile, the Chondro gene is 100% linked to its lethality and its interference with normal bone growth.  Those are features of the Chondro-gene itself. 
 





 
 

[lonecowhand]

I Never stated they blended. What I was attempting to say was that you cant just get one extra trait or expression from a sexual mating, you get the whole other set of traits, and those are expressed randomly.

Like your beads, they are dumped into a pot, and while the individual traits are not blended, they are all there.
Some dominant, some recessive,and they stay with the new generation, some to be expressed in later generations.

You can get just one trait from Gene Splicing, but that is another arguement.

Where do you think the rest of those conformational features that came along with the Polled Gene traits went?

[cascade]

Jan 23, 2015 18:09:27 GMT @dexterfarm said:

So you would throw out the pedigree. Because you say that does not matter.
You have already made it clear you don want to eradicate chondro dexters.
Now you say Phenotype is the only thing that matters.
Well you need to look at some historical pictures. The ones that were photo graft/shown. (the best of the breed)
What were they they were black horned dwarfs.
How many black horned dexters do you have?
I already know you will say all 3 colors are except able and I agree they are but you have eliminated the original predominate color. If looks are the only thing you find important you dont even have that now.

The pedigree is VERY useful in conjunction with phenotype and genotype.... but the pedigree is pretty useless on its own.    Also, pedigrees back more than 5 generations are entertaining, but not all that useful.  Chances are that any particular ancestor back more than 5 generations has no impact on the current generation UNLESS a breeder went to great lengths to bring forward a particular genes from that ancient ancestor.   Each generation, 50% of an ancient ancestor's genes are lost, so that's 75% loss in two generations, and 88% loss in 3 generations and 94% loss in 4 generations, and 97% loss in 5 generations, and 99% loss in 6 generations.   

Concerning chondro, historical pictures also show us the 25% of calves that are horribly disfigured and dead.  I personally do want to eventually eradicate all lethal genes from the Dexter breed.  I think lethal genes are a problem for ANY breed of livestock.  But I'm only one tiny voice and one small vote.  If a new lethal gene was found that worked just like the Chondro gene, would you want to spread that gene around too?   If someone argued that PHA had a good side (along with its lethality), would you want to purposefully spread the PHA lethal gene around?

If you look at the picture I posted up top, you'll see three of the 7 black purebred registered Dexters we have on our farm (6 of them are pregnant with calves due starting in March).   We probably have more black dexters on our farm than many dexter breeders who post on this board (but we also have a lot of reds too).

I'm thrilled that some people are selecting for compact, black, horned dexters (without the chondro-gene)....  I love this non-chondro bull.  You can bet that Dexter breeders 100 years ago would have loved this bull because he breeds true.  100% of his offspring can look very similar, with no lethal genes.

[lonecowhand]

Whose animals are you posting the gigantic photos of? A 2x3 would make your point.Do you own this one?

[lakeportfarms]

Lonecowhand, that's Brightlea Benjamin. He was a Carol Davidson breeding. The one thing about this bull that strikes me as a little bit different are the horn size/thickness/shape. I know horns come in all sizes and types, but his are very unique.

[genebo]

It is amazing how quickly he is beginning to pass himself off as an expert on color. He must be a very fast learner, don't you think?

Why it seems like just yesterday that he was writing that black Dexters that are Ed/Ed will always breed true. He seems to have missed the interdependence between the color genes and the dun genes. After being corrected, he got it right a few days later, but seems to have forgotten it already.

Remember, even though a Dexter is b/b for dun, it still can't be dun UNLESS it also has an Ed black color gene. Dun won't work without the black color.

Remember, even though a Dexter is Ed/Ed for color, if it is also b/b for dun, it will be dun, not black. The two gene pairs do interact.

Did you learn about Dexter colors from the old Carol writings that the ADCA still has on its site?

Remember, too, that breeding two dwarf Dexters together does NOT produce 25% affected calves. That is a statistic that list the probability of .... what? It lists the probability of a conception that could possibly develop into an affected calf. However, you would be unwise to ignore the factual progress of such a conception.

Some such conceptions, made when a chondro sperm fertilizes a chondro egg, are severely affected and fail to thrive right from the start. That subtracts from the 25% probability that led to the conception. Some other such severely affected conceptions will fail to implant, wither and die at around the 7th day. These also subtract from the 25% figure. As the embryo forms and grows it passes through stages where it can fail. By the 5th month, the majority of all severely affected pregnancies have ended in premature abortion. We still don't have a bulldog calf.

Once, an effort was made to determine the true rate of actual bulldog calf births that resulted from breeding two dwarf Dexters together. The answer was around 10%. That is how many bulldog calves were born as a result of breeding two chondro carriers together. The difference between the 25% figure and the 10% figure can be attributed to the loss of the embryos in as little time as a day or two all the way up to the 5th month mark. In the shorter cases, it will probably not even be noticed. An assumption might be made that the bull failed to impregnate the cow.

There are not many people left who still breed two short legged Dexters together. I know of at least one person who does, and he has his own reasons for doing so. The vast majority of all who breed for short legged Dexter calves use the DNA test to guarantee them that they will never have a bulldog calf. It's so easy. You simply breed a shortie to a long legged non-carrier of chondro.

That is how you can get the preferred phenotype of a Dexter, along with the desired temperament, grass marbled beef and all the other attributes of a shortie without ever risking having a bulldog calf.

Keep writing your junk. The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare. Surely, sooner or later, you will write something worthwhile. Maybe something good, like "I'm sorry"!

[cascade]

EVERY feature of Dexters can be made to breed true EXCEPT Chondro and PHA
That's because Chondro and PHA are lethal genes and can never be homozygous in a live animal.

Genes need to be homozygous for an animal to breed true for that feature.

Blacks can breed true if they are homozygous blacks.
Duns are actually black animals, with a defect that interferes with the completion of the black pigment.
There is NO such thing a dun pigment. It's just unfinished black pigment (that looks brown).

In the process of laying down black pigment(Eumelanin), the last step requires a catalyst/enzyme protein call TYRP1 (Tyrosinase Related Protein 1) to "fix" or "Complete" the black pigment. Animals with two broken TYRP1 genes, can't make this enzyme, so their black pigment is faded and they look brown/dun. Animals only need one good working TYRP1 gene to produce the enzyme needed to make black pigment look black.

The TYRP1 gene is located at the "B" locus. This locus is often referred to as the "Brown" locus. "B" stands for the dominant working Tyrp1 gene while "b" stands for the broken disabled recessive version of the gene. The letter "B" and "b" was used to stand for "brown" vs. "Black".

This defect is occasionally found in nearly all animals including mice, cats, dogs, horses, rabbits, sheep, pigeons, etc..

Chocolate Labrador Retrievers are really black labs with two of these broken TYRP1 genes (just like Dun Dexters)so chocolate labs look brown instead of black.

If you want to know something very interesting....

A Dexter can be both Red and Dun at the same time.

E+ is NOT just red.... It's actually a mix of red and black (depending on other genes like the Agouti Genes).

If you have one of those very dark E+ animals with lots of black, and if it had two broken TYRP1 genes (b/b), then its dark/black areas would be dun(brown) instead of black. So the animal would be both Red and Dun at the same time.


PS. We also breed Icelandic Sheep on our farm, and their horn and color genetics are MUCH more complicated than Dexter horn and color genetics.

PPS.  I've been breeding animals and plants and studying genetics since the 1960's

[genebo]

Are you serious? 50 years of study? You must have been last in the class a lot of those years.

At which school did you study genetics, and what grades did you get? Which text did you use? Do you think you'll ever get it right?

My ignorant cousin Elmer took 7 years of study to get a degree. Maybe they spit him out too soon, for he's still dumb as a brick. All that tuition money wasted.

Have you ever taught genetics at an accredited school or just on the internet discussion boards?

Show me your credentials.

[cascade]

Jan 23, 2015 23:38:04 GMT lonecowhand said:

I Never stated they blended. What I was attempting to say was that you cant just get one extra trait or expression from a sexual mating, you get the whole other set of traits, and those are expressed randomly.

Like your beads, they are dumped into a pot, and while the individual traits are not blended, they are all there.
Some dominant, some recessive,and they stay with the new generation, some to be expressed in later generations.

You can get just one trait from Gene Splicing, but that is another arguement.

Where do you think the rest of those conformational features that came along with the Polled Gene traits went?

The polled gene almost certainly came from a mutation.   Do you have proof otherwise?
The polled gene is just a broken horn-regulator gene.   These breaks occur regularly in cattle.
Saltaire Platinum is 50% Woodmagic according to the pedigree.
At 42" at 3 years of age, he certainly has the phenotype of a 50% Woodmagic traditional bull.

When genes are "dumped into a pot", they aren't  "ALL There in the next generation"

Each Generation 50%, of the genes of an ancestor are lost.

After 6 generations, any single gene from the long ago ancestor has a 99% chance of being lost

Breeders working hard to hang onto a polled gene, actually increase the chance of all the other genes being lost because it's terrifically hard to get one gene to come down through the generations without losing that gene.    

Further, since 99.99% of all Dexter genes come from many other breeds of cattle, Dexters already have all most all those other genes that you're worried about getting into Dexters.



 

[lakeportfarms]

Jan 25, 2015 2:46:16 GMT cascade said:

Jan 23, 2015 23:38:04 GMT lonecowhand said:

The polled gene almost certainly came from a mutation.   Do you have proof otherwise?

I think you're parsing your sentence there...now the polled gene is from a mutation, but you don't specify DEXTER mutation anymore do you? I'd be a lot more willing to accept that the polled mutation came from the millions and millions and millions of the cattle born over the past few hundred years, than the odds that the registered Dexter breed with it's few thousand at the time just "happened" to develop the mutation. For a registry to have any credibility, there must be some rules that are developed in advanced and then adhered to to maintain the integrity from there forward.

Do you not read all of Judy's research regarding the upgrading/introgression that took place prior to Platinum?

Regarding the lost gene argument, that may apply when you have ONE instance of a particular breed in an individual animal, however when you go back over and over and over again to the same phenotype, just as in line breeding, you are not losing the genes of the particular phenotype, you are fixing and stamping them on the animals you are breeding and fundamentally changing the phenotype to that of the genetics used so extensively in the pedigree.  There are some pretty bad offenders out there.  Look at the pedigrees of some and you'll hardly notice any difference between them.  That will give you your uniform herd, but it will look different than what the Dexter breed for years was known to be.

And with 20 years of polled being accepted into the ADCA, I don't believe for a second that all of the breeders out there who wished to capitalize on the polled Dexter had the integrity not to use polled from another breed to increase their odds of having polled "Dexters" to sell to anxious and enthusiastic buyers wishing to snap up polled Dexters to get on the bandwagon.  There are few if any safeguards in the ADCA registry to guard against this, and NONE prior to 2009.  If you owned a few or so registered Dexters, for the investment of less than $100 in semen, you could guarantee that you'd have 100% polled "Dexters" by using it on grade quality Angus cows.  And then take one bull from those breedings and off you go with your own polled herd.  If you've been at it for a while, you could have even genotyped the Angus cows, and start parent verifying your calves to have a completely parentage verified herd.  Then you can brag about your PV herd and question the parentage of horned Dexters that haven't been parentage verified.  Of course you're not willing to share the DNA markers with anybody, that should remain private.

Don't tell me instances like that wouldn't account for dramatic changes in the phenotype...

When you look at a photo of a polled Dexter bull and have a hard time distinguishing it from one of a red Angus, you have a DINO.  No, not Dinosaur, a "Dexter In Name Only".  Stop trying to compare what you breed to a "Traditional" Dexter, as they are not the same.

[genebo]

Hans,

The mutation that caused polled in cattle came about a very long time ago. Some of the most ancient remains that have been discovered in modern times sho signs of being polled. There were likely two different mutations that caused polled, or one original mutation followed by a subsequent mutation that happened to the original polled carriers. Both occurred vary long ago.

Neither had anything to do with Dexter cattle. Dexters were not standardized as a breed until about 150 years ago at the very earliest. Polled had been around for centuries before. Dexter cattle were formed into a breed through selection of horned cattle. Dexters have alwas been a horned breed, prior to the introgression of one of the two forms of polled, the Celtic form. This is the form that was found in the British polled breeds, most notably Angus. UC Davis now administers a DNA test to determine just which of the two polled forms a polled bovine may carry. Platinum brought the Celtic form to the US Dexter herd. All of Platinum's descendants carry his Celtic polled gene.

A homozygous for black Dexter may not only fail to breed true, it may not even be black in coat color. Dun Dexters may be homozygous for black coat color.

The word "traditional" is a dictionary word with many different meanings. It can be used as an adjective and can also be used as a noun. It is a word that is in general use and cannot be copyrighted. It may be used in a benevolent manner, to describe the traits that our Dexters have exhibited for over a hundred years, or may be used in a toxic manner to denigrate the traits that we reference. Judy labels all of the US Dexters that are free of introgression as Traditional. Those that are directly descended from the earliest US Dexters are labeled Legacy Dexters. Sort of like being descended from those who came here on the Mayflower.

Those that cannot fit either of those two categories are lumped with the Label "Modern".

Our toxic poster loves labels. Labels that degrade Legacy and Traditional Dexters and labels that degrade dwarf Dexters. When the desired impact isn't achieved using his toxic labels, he expanded his vocabulary to deliberately misuse the labels we use. It's all in the plan, do downgrade the reputation of what he doesn't have.

It would be best, by far, to shun such bad behavior.

[cascade]

Jan 25, 2015 12:21:06 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Jan 25, 2015 2:46:16 GMT cascade said:

The polled gene almost certainly came from a mutation.   Do you have proof otherwise?

I think you're parsing your sentence there...now the polled gene is from a mutation, but you don't specify DEXTER mutation anymore do you? I'd be a lot more willing to accept that the polled mutation came from the millions and millions and millions of the cattle born over the past few hundred years, than the odds that the registered Dexter breed with it's few thousand at the time just "happened" to develop the mutation. For a registry to have any credibility, there must be some rules that are developed in advanced and then adhered to to maintain the integrity from there forward.

Do you not read all of Judy's research regarding the upgrading/introgression that took place prior to Platinum?

Regarding the lost gene argument, that may apply when you have ONE instance of a particular breed in an individual animal, however when you go back over and over and over again to the same phenotype, just as in line breeding, you are not losing the genes of the particular phenotype, you are fixing and stamping them on the animals you are breeding and fundamentally changing the phenotype to that of the genetics used so extensively in the pedigree.  There are some pretty bad offenders out there.  Look at the pedigrees of some and you'll hardly notice any difference between them.  That will give you your uniform herd, but it will look different than what the Dexter breed for years was known to be.

And with 20 years of polled being accepted into the ADCA, I don't believe for a second that all of the breeders out there who wished to capitalize on the polled Dexter had the integrity not to use polled from another breed to increase their odds of having polled "Dexters" to sell to anxious and enthusiastic buyers wishing to snap up polled Dexters to get on the bandwagon.  There are few if any safeguards in the ADCA registry to guard against this, and NONE prior to 2009.  If you owned a few or so registered Dexters, for the investment of less than $100 in semen, you could guarantee that you'd have 100% polled "Dexters" by using it on grade quality Angus cows.  And then take one bull from those breedings and off you go with your own polled herd.  If you've been at it for a while, you could have even genotyped the Angus cows, and start parent verifying your calves to have a completely parentage verified herd.  Then you can brag about your PV herd and question the parentage of horned Dexters that haven't been parentage verified.  Of course you're not willing to share the DNA markers with anybody, that should remain private.

Don't tell me instances like that wouldn't account for dramatic changes in the phenotype...

When you look at a photo of a polled Dexter bull and have a hard time distinguishing it from one of a red Angus, you have a DINO.  No, not Dinosaur, a "Dexter In Name Only".  Stop trying to compare what you breed to a "Traditional" Dexter, as they are not the same.

A bull creates 5 billion sperm cells every day.  In creating those sperm cells, a haploid copy of the DNA must be made for each sperm cell.  The copy process is NOT perfect, so mistakes are made.  One thing that triggers DNA copy mistakes is atomic particles from the sun and from space shooting through the testicles of the bull, while the copy process is occurring  (that's why dentists put lead shields on us when doing x-rays). 

The polled gene is really just a horn regulator gene that is "broken" due to a copy error.   These copy errors are thought to occur in about 1 in every 10,000 copies. 

1 error in every 10,000 copies means that every day a horned bull produces 500,000 sperm with a broken horn regulator gene (polled gene).  The polled mutation in sperm cells occurs millions of times daily in every breed.

A bull delivers about 10 billion sperm in each breeding, so in a horned bull, that's 1 million sperm with a broken horn regulator gene (polled gene) in every mating.  In the race to the egg by the sperm from a horned bull, there are 9.999 billion sperm with a correctly copied horn regulator gene and only 1 million with the polled gene.  The chance that one of the polled sperm cells  reaches the egg first, is 1 in 10,000.

That means that 1 in 10,000 calves born to two horned parents in ANY breed, will be polled.

In the case of Celtic Breeds, there is likely a horn regulator gene that has a mutational hotspot within it.  Mutational Hotspots are natural gene weak-points that break repeatedly in the same way.  This fools amateurs into believing that all animals with identical mutations must have all descended from a single mutation.    

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/glossary=hotspotmutationregion

The polled mutation has occurred regularly in ALL horned cattle.  It likely has occurred 5 or 10 total times within the Dexter Breed.  In many cases, it goes unnoticed by folks who don't understand genetics... perhaps on a low-quality steer, or perhaps in a herd that de-horns, or perhaps on an animal with scurs.

A polled mutation almost certainly occurred in a grandparent of Saltaire Platinum.  It would have largely gone unnoticed in North America except that some smart folks looking for the polled gene found it and brought it here.

The polled gene has been easily available to anyone who wants it for the past 20 years, since Saltaire Platinum polled semen was brought in from the British Isles (the original home of Dexters), by some of North America's best Dexter cattle breeders.

Saltaire Platinum had 63 offspring in the US and only about half of those were polled, because Saltaire Platinum was heterozygously polled. 

Polled Dexters in the US trace back to those 30+ polled offspring of Saltaire Platinum, so there obviously wasn't any deceit. 

Polled animals do have different head shapes than horned animals....  That's pretty simple to understand.  

Here's that short little traditional horned cow that has the 42" Saltaire Platinum on her pedigree 17 times....   Her skull shape is different from her polled parents and grandparents and siblings.   





 We already have a way to distinguish between horned and polled dexters (the words "horned" and "polled" suffice nicely, we don't need other words to confuse people.

[Donlin Stud]

Jan 24, 2015 21:10:34 GMT cascade said:

If you want to know something very interesting....

A Dexter can be both Red and Dun at the same time.

E+ is NOT just red.... It's actually a mix of red and black (depending on other genes like the Agouti Genes).

If you have one of those very dark E+ animals with lots of black, and if it had two broken TYRP1 genes (b/b), then its dark/black areas would be dun(brown) instead of black. So the animal would be both Red and Dun at the same time.

Hi Cascade

You need to slot the word, maybe or has the potential to in the above.

We have a E+/E+ and b/b female - and she doesnt have any dun or light areas.

She is an even deep rich red all over including her tail switch.

[Not sure if it’s the gradeup program but some red coloured Aussie Dexters have a cream to very dark cream tail switch]

[cascade]

Jan 26, 2015 20:50:57 GMT Donlin Stud said:

Jan 24, 2015 21:10:34 GMT cascade said:

If you want to know something very interesting....

A Dexter can be both Red and Dun at the same time.

E+ is NOT just red.... It's actually a mix of red and black (depending on other genes like the Agouti Genes).

If you have one of those very dark E+ animals with lots of black, and if it had two broken TYRP1 genes (b/b), then its dark/black areas would be dun(brown) instead of black. So the animal would be both Red and Dun at the same time.

Hi Cascade

You need to slot the word, maybe or has the potential to in the above.

We have a E+/E+ and b/b female - and she doesnt have any dun or light areas.




She is an even deep rich red all over including her tail switch.

[Not sure if it’s the gradeup program but some red coloured Aussie Dexters have a cream to very dark cream tail switch]

Yes, what I said would only apply to the E+ E+ reds that have patches of near black on the face and elsewhere likely caused by A+ at the Agouti Locus

So if an E+ dexter that looks like this (lots of black on face) had b/b then he would have that black showing as a mixture of red and dun instead of red and black.   The black hairs would be dun with red undertones.



But many E+ animals don't have the genes (likely at the Agouti locus) that call for this pattern of red and black.

Some E+ animals are all red with just a few black hairs here and there especially around the muzzle and tail switch, and b/b would change those few black hairs to dun with red undertones but wouldn't be very noticeable.  That may be the case in your cow.    Does your red cow have any E+ relatives without b/b and do they have some black hairs on them?