Pedigree and color question

[Blessings Farms]

In reviewing some dexter pedigree why does it seem that most animals other

than black before 1995 or so seem to have dun / red as a color and not one

or the other ?

[genebo]

In the beginning, when Dexters were first brought to America, there were no duns. They were all black except for some reds. They were recorded as being red.

Later some duns were brought here. They were not recognized as being dun at the time, and were registered as being red.

When it was realized that some of those registered as red were actually dun, the registrar changed and began registering all non-blacks as red/dun. A DNA test was developed to determine coat color. Any Dexter that was tested and shown to be red, either E+/E+, E+/e or e/e, could be registered as red. All others were registered as red/dun.

Later, yet, a test was developed to determine if a Dexter was dun. Any Dexter that was DNA tested to be dun was registered as dun. But the rules allowed any non-black that was not tested to be red to be registered as dun.

It's getting complicated.

Today, you can register any non-black, untested red Dexter as dun.

just a few years ago, the ADCA registrar went back in the records and changed as many as possible of the oldest registered red Dexters to red/dun.

In fact, you can take any registration listing of color with a grain of salt. The only ones I know you can trust are the ones where PDCA and Legacy show the DNA test markers for coat color and dun.

Here are two registry listings for Legacy Eve of Paradise. In the Legacy listing, note the color is listed as black. Down below, the coat color (EXT) is listed as Ed/E+ (black carrying red) and the dun factor (TYRP1) is lkisted as B/B (Black/Black, no dun). pretty easy to read.

www.legacydextercattleregistry.com/a_info.php?sec=1&aid=584

This is the ADCA listing for the same cow, but does not show the extra information. It simply lists her color as black.

www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=024970&HorseName=legacy%20eve&Page=1&Sort=0

The PDCA listing is similar to the Legacy display, but is only available to members.

[Blessings Farms]

Good grief can humans do anything else to complicate this breed?
If I understand this correctly you don't really know what the
animal carries with out testing for all colors ? In the pictures
you see dun and red can look a lot alike right.

[lakeportfarms]

You can often have a pretty good idea what it carries if you breed it to a variety of Dexters of all colors. For example, one of our bulls, Dylan, is out of Mike (Dun), and Tia Faye (Black). Dylan is dun, so we know he can throw that color, Dylan can also produce black out of a black cow. Dylan's mother was sired by a red bull, so we know she carries red, and dun (because Dylan is dun), but we don't know if Dylan inherited her red... Sheril asked for me to test Dylan for red, but I procrastinated and never requested the test. This past summer Dylan's first calves started hitting the ground, and out of a red cow we got a red heifer, and out of a black carries dun (not tested but she's had dun out of Mike) and red cow we got a red bull calf, and out of a black carries dun cow we got a dun calf. Sometimes it pays to procrastinate! So I know about many of these colors that are hidden in some of the cows too, because of what they produced.

[genebo]

It will only get better going forward from here. The DNA tests were a great step forward, and with Legacy and PDCA providing an opportunity for owners to share their results, it is a lot easier for buyers to pick out Dexters that suit their wants and needs.

We are in a state of flux with the registries. Lots going on.

The Dexters themselves don't change, just the labels that get put on them.

When I was trying desperately to find a Legacy bull that carried E+ red, to breed to Eve, I hit a blank wall everywhere I turned. So few of the old blood Dexters were DNA tested for anything! They lived in the times before DNA testing was widely used.

Just the other day I went onto the LDCR registry and found a number of Dexters that carry E+ red. People are learning to share their test results and display them to the public. I love it.

[jamshundred]

Blessings,

I have sooooo many ongoing projects.  One of them is the red and dun issue.  I had done lots of work on this in the past but I knew a couple people interested in red research and they were working on that. . . so I kind of shelved everything once I traced the US dun to Grinstead Ambassador, ( prior to Woodmagic imports).   The recent article had me look at that information again where I realized that pedigree entries I have made so far show there is no shared ancestor of Plover and Ambassador in their close generations. . . so I've been trying to join all the red and dun records and see if I can find a common ancestor that might have been the source of dun.    I tend to think it came in on the foundation animals, because of the names of the red cows which bring to mind shades of golden color or brown.   The other thought I have is that a brown ( dun) animal may have been thought to be red or if there was a doubt. . . it may have been used for breeding and black offspring registered with brownish ones culled.   I have been compiling all the red animals from the earliest herdbooks in England and Ireland.  There were quite a few red animals in the early foundation lines of Ireland.   I have found a number of red animals with black lineage for several generations to foundation. .. . . but since red travels recessive ( as will dun) that means nothing.  I am trying to find two animals registered as red that have a black offspring.  Tedious work.

If someone out there already has this kind of research accomplished that would be great to know.  Always willing to share or help.


Judy