Dexter height

[Deleted]

There has been so much discussion of dexter height. What is the correct height? I dont know but if we want to be historically correct and I think all but one person on here does. Than non dwarfs should probably be at the top of the height range and dwarfs should be at the lower end. even at the top they are still small compared to other breeds. We probably should not be selecting for fake dwarfs(true shorts). Nothing wrong with them but really not breed accurate. Also when we breed a dwarf to a fake dwarf then wow could we end up with something way to small. I am just saying the dwarfs should be dwarfs and the non dwarfs should not be. Here is one of mine. I think she is a good example of a non dwarf. She is standing kind of funny on the rough rutted ground. She will be 4 this spring and she is about 42". I have not measured her but comparing her standing next to ones I do know the height on I think that is pretty close to right.

[lakeportfarms]

Mike, she looks just right to me, and I agree about "miniaturizing" the Dexter breed.  It's not a good idea.  What is a Zebu's purpose other than as a pet?  If you start getting too small, they lose their utility as a beef cow, but also as a milking cow.  I think there is a just right size, and it would be along the lines of 36"-42" for cows, with the dwarfs at the lower end of the scale.  I have several 40" non-chondro mature (5 years and up) cows, and they are about as small as I care to go for non-chondro.  They have pretty small frames, and their steers also have pretty small frames.

If you brought in a breed such as a lowline I suppose you could create the shorter size and add some frame mass to the cows and bulls, but of course that is no longer purebred Dexter, and loses many other traits in the process.

As you all know, my favorites are the very full bodied dwarf cows from 36-38" or so, that can produce a very full bodied steer that provides some BEEF, whether they are a dwarf or not.  They are efficient producers and are ideally suited for our cold and snowy winters, with a large mass (i.e. furnace) to help keep them warm.  Add the thick full coat of hair as well.  Though we have the duns and some reds, I usually reserve the hugs on the sunny bitter cold winter days (not many sunny days here in Michigan though) for the black ones.  The thing is, the full bodied dwarf Dexters are usually out of, and produce, full bodied non-carriers like the one you posted, with a hint of dairy in their hindquarters.  Bred to the right dwarf bull, your cow would produce one of those.

[cascade]

Industrial Cattle are big and intimidating and dangerous animals. Dexters are a concept breed, selected to fit a niche. Many folks would like to keep cattle if there was a small, friendly, productive, practical, dual-purpose breed. Folks around at the beginning of dexters, understood the desire for those small friendly cattle, so they selected a bunch of small cattle to create a new breed (that's how many new breeds were created).

The originators of dexters did NOT select chondro-dwarfs, they selected SMALL cattle (mostly from Kerry mixes)

In selecting foundation animals, they certainly would have selected some true-shorts along with some heterozygous hybrid chondrodysplastic dwarfs. They had no way of knowing which was which for certain. The true-shorts could breed true, but the hybrid dwarfs could not breed true, and the homozygous dwarfs were born dead. It must have been a nightmare in the days before dna was understood and before DNA testing. The very smartest folks could use Mendelian concepts to try to figure it all out, but most folks had no idea.

You can bet that if the originators of Dexters could have figured out how to stabilize the small friendly productive breed and eliminate the problematic chondrodysplasia gene, they would have done so... and some folks like Beryl Rutherford of the Woodmagic Herd DID figure it out fairly early on.

I'm a big fan of history and we are VERY old-fashioned on our farm, but there are some problematic things from history (like slavery and polio and smallpox and Chondro) that are best not recreated.

You can bet that if the originators of dexters saw an animal like this one below, they would have included it in the original Dexters that were ALL selected from non-dexters.  

He's dehorned, so picture him with horns if you love horns.  He's non-chondro and non-pha.  He has EVERYTHING that chondros have except the early arthritis and except 50% giant calves.  100% of his calves can look just like him if he was bred on similar cows.  You could throw a bull like this into a pasture with his own daughters and granddaughters and let them breed freely with mostly good results and NO giants, and few, if any, dead calves. 

The bulls are around 39 inches at 3 years and the cows around 38 inches at 3 years.

 

[genebo]

I have only used 4 different bulls here, and they each produced the same size calves. Two are short legged and two are long legged. I believe that the calves they produce are the size that Dexters have been and should continue to be. Their sizes are within the size limits currently suggested by the ADCA. I think that the current size guidelines are the same as they have been in the past.

The first stirrings I ever heard for increasing the height guidelines came from some beef breeders who had unabashedly bred for larger size. They knew they were going outside the guidelines, but wanted the extra size for their beef cattle. It was after the fact that they tried to have their cake and eat it, too. They tried to have the size guidelines upped to legitimize their oversize stock.

What added fuel to their fire was the fact that in addition to selling beef, they also routinely sold breeding stock to newcomers. Once the new folks became owners, they had a vested interest in seeing that the guidelines included the stock they bought.

For a while, it was quite the thing to do, to brag about what long legs your stock had, or to point out that your stock was more proportional in appearance. Proportional, of course, referring to having the proportions of beef cattle.

The ADCA did not act to change the guidelines. If you wanted to raise cattle that were above the guidelines, you could, but don't make a big fuss about it.

There were a number of new names for Dexter sizes brought into use. Proportional dwarf, medium leg, 3/4 leg, and others. It became the fad to breed down in size, to get a true, proportional dwarf. The name was a misnomer, for so many of the cattle picked to represent this were not proportional at all. They had shoulder heights lower than their hip heights. We called them Downhill Dexters, and laughed.

As long as there are people who hold no esteem for the breed, who have no reservations about introducing something new into a traditional breed, we will have this. Eliminate one and another will fill the slot. I think it's a quirk of human nature that does it.

When Carol Davidson introduced her magic measuring stick, that can measure a little dwarf Dexter as being taller than a standard sized Dexter, it fed those who would campaign fervently against dwarf Dexters. Many of them haven't figured out whether her joke is on them or on us. Partly that is because the rabid perpetrators of the myth have no way to tell if it is true or not. None of them have any dwarf Dexters to try their magic measuring stick on. We do. It is plain that the magic measuring stick is a hoax. For lack of understanding, they are forced to carry on. I think it makes them angry that we can tell and they can't.

There used to be a guy in the midwest that would buy and sell Dexters. A real used car salesman. "Medium leg" was one of his favorite descriptions of the Dexters he had for sale. It was a marvelous name, because nobody else knew what it meant, and he couldn't be held at fault if it turned out that his supposedly special Dexter was just a run-of-the-mill Dexter, not worth anywhere near the high price that he charged for it.

[Deleted]

Hans,
I would breed her to a dwarf but cant find one. She is Legacy and I will not breed her to anything else. There is a possibility of AI but there are only a very few straws of dwarf legacy bulls left. I have never had any dealings with AI and not confident that I could find someone here that could do it right and not waste a straw. The second issue is she is PHA. I could live with a dwarf heifer that got PHA. But if I got a bull I would be tempted to use it and I dont need any more PHA. If it wasnt for wasting the valuable straw. I would have no problems taking the gamble that I could get a dwarf that was not PHA.


 

[lakeportfarms]

This is Shadwell  ( dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=020602&OwnerName=sheril%20peterson&SearchFor=1&Page=3&Sort=0 ).  He's A2/A2 and out of traditional lines. All black and no color.  We were so fortunate to find him last summer.  We've measured Shadwell at 36" at 6 years old.  He's like a puppy dog, he loves to be scratched, he is very slow and deliberate with his movement (until a girl needs some attention).



Matilda, in the other picture ( dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=030517&OwnerName=sheril%20peterson&SearchFor=1&Page=2&Sort=0 ), is a traditional Dexter that carries red (e).  Matilda is the dam of Lady II, who is red (e/e).  Matilda is probably the largest of the traditional Dexters that we have, 43" at 6 years old.  She does have a pretty high tail set as you can see (part of it in the photo is the ground she's on), so we were having a bit of trouble determining where exactly to take the measurement.  You can see her in comparison to Shadwell.  We're looking forward to seeing what the two of them produce this summer, along with the other traditional girls Shadwell has been bred to, many of whom also carry red, or are red in the case of Lady II.

I expect we'll get something in between these two, and no matter if it is a dwarf or long legged, the progeny of these two will fall somewhere within the breed guidelines.  The heavier body of Matilda will probably be a nice compliment to Shadwell's relatively small frame.  Shadwell will be an excellent bull to bring down the heights a little bit.

[cascade]

From the Breed Association

"According to the guidelines, the ideal three year old Dexter bull measures 38 to 44 inches at the shoulder"

Anything below or above that range is a fault to be corrected.

[lakeportfarms]

Feb 4, 2015 22:14:25 GMT cascade said:

From the Breed Association

"According to the guidelines, the ideal three year old Dexter bull measures 38 to 44 inches at the shoulder"

Anything below or above that range is a fault to be corrected.

You're saying he's too small???   Given the sizes of some of the Dexters out there today, I'm VERY happy and love my little bull, thank you.  He was his own star attraction at the week long fair we took him to last August.  I'm not sure who drew a bigger crowd, 36" Shadwell, or the yearling Scottish Highland heifers that the kids were able to brush.

Well, actually they appealed to two different groups...the teenage girls and younger oodled over the fuzzy Highlands (we actually let a teenage boy take them for walks to pick up girls), while Shadwell was a man magnet.  They showed up saying "I was told I had to come see the short bull with horns!"  We actually had to put up a barrier to keep them from going in and petting him all the time, not that he minded the attention.

I think this puts to rest your claims that the chondro gene makes "giant" Dexters.  Shadwell won't.  I've seen your posts, Kirk, where you claim you are working on reducing your heights of you polled Dexters.  As you can see we're there.... because we never left.

[Donlin Stud]

Do you know how contradictory this all is to someone on the outside of the breed…

1. Yes, Dexters come in two sizes – but there is only one height range in the breed standard.
2. Science determined Chondro has up to a 20% effect – but the breed standard height range is less than 14%.[44" minus 20% = 35"]
3. Height is a fault to be corrected – on which ‘Dexter - size’ are we talking about?

[lakeportfarms]

I think the key word here is "up to a 20% effect". I don't believe that is always the case. Nonetheless, Shadwell is certainly on the small side, and I'm sure he'll pass some of that on to his offspring. Notice in the photo that Matilda, despite being a fairly big girl, has a very deep body and there is not a lot of air under her legs. It is my guess that combined with the shorter legs of a nice chondro carrier, that she'll produce dwarfs with a similar appearance to the Grinstead cows in the video. She has a beautiful udder on her, and although her tail is high, her hip angle is not. With some more weight on her a lot of it would disappear but we don't feed grain, she's nursing a pretty good size calf, it's been cold here for a while and she's losing condition slowly, and I think too many breeders keep their cows too fat anyway. It will come back in the spring and summer on grass.

[Deleted]

I dont think she looks thin but black cow white background is kind of hard to see details. I also dont think 43 @ 6 years is to tall.

[jamshundred]

Kirk >The originators of dexters did NOT select chondro-dwarfs, they selected SMALL cattle (mostly from Kerry mixes)

Kirk,

On height:    Are you reading something different than I am?  *I* am reading it from the source. . .. .the Society who organized, promoted, and registered the first Kerry and Dexter cattle, set the original breed standards, and published it.  Did you not read it?  Did you not see the comments on leg length with emphasis from hock to first joint?  Dwarf characteristics Kirk.  Dexter cattle are a Dwarf breed of cattle.    For decades there was NO height standard.  Just the weight standard.  900/800 lbs.  I suppose if you have a 50" cow that weighs 800 pounds or less. .. that fits the breed standard.
If you read the entire preface to the the Royal Dublin Society herd book # 1  ( it is in the historical section)

 By 1923 (UK herdbook XXIV) the RDS was no longer issuing Dexter herd books.  England was the registering authority for Dexters.   On page 114, of that herd book, you will find, " A standard description of the Dexter".   There are 5 numbered sections which deal with milk/meat, color,head/neck, horns, ( there is NO provision for polled cattle), body description, skin.   Then it states:  Dexter bulls should not exceed 900 lbs. live weight, when in breeding condition.  Dexter cows should not exceed 900 lbs. live weight, when in breeding condition.

FORTY-FOUR years after the breed was organized. . . . . the Dexter breed was still required to meet a weight standard with no height standard.  The height standard did not come until modern times and different breed organizations have differing standards.   The bottom line Kirk. . . . the original animals and intent of the founders of this breed have been so corrupted the breed is all but unrecognizable when compared to the historical photos.  It is only by the concerted effort of traditional breeders through modern decades and their efforts at preservation that the breed is not totally perverted.

On breed origins:  In the preface to herd book 1, it quotes passages from writings of Arthur Young, Isaac Wilde (1807) Rev. Horatio Townsend, ( after completing a survey of cattle for the RDS, David Low, and Edward Wakefield.   It appears their remarks reference Kerry cattle, and it seems to a person they all make comments that say the Kerry cattle had been changed considerably.  Edward Wakefield stated, " I was not able to find any which I thought free from admixture" when he was seeking cattle for purchase on behalf of the Duke of Bedford.

And then, Edward Wakefield writes the section I quoted earlier which begins with, " A few honorable exceptions, however, exist to this general neglect of the mountain dairy breed of Ireland.  One attempt had succeeded to such a degree as to form a new breed".  Then he describes the Dexter, and that "one character of the breed is frequently observed".    " Short legs and a small space from the knee and back to the hoofs".   This is a characteristic almost always used to describe dwarf cattle Kirk.     The Cardiff Report suggested Dexter cattle were more connected to Devon cattle than Kerry, but they were also working with some rare original bloodline Devons from the US in that study.   The Irish research suggested the Dexter was more connected to the Kerry.   All the earliest literature I have read would lead me to believe they were connected to the Kerry, but that same literature also states that Kerry cattle were outcrossed extensively in Ireland prior to the establishment of the breed and herd books, so there is also likely shorthorn in the early mixture as well.

The breed was organized in 1879, taken over and shepherded by RDS through the 1800's, joined by the English in 1899 and the breed standard did not waver . . . . . ..  .until. . . . . . modern decades when breeders stopped culling animals that did not fit the breed standard and the immense outcrossing began in the last half of the 20th century.  One of the bulls heavy in the red lines is Lucifer. . . . and he was FIFTY FOUR inches at the time of his demise.   I've seen one of his sons I would suspect of being close to that height!  A massive animal.   

Judy

[genebo]

Feb 4, 2015 22:14:25 GMT cascade said:

From the Breed Association

"According to the guidelines, the ideal three year old Dexter bull measures 38 to 44 inches at the shoulder"

Anything below or above that range is a fault to be corrected.

This is false: The statement within quotes does not appear in the ADCA or PDCA breed guidelines. It is a made-up statement attributed to a fictitious 'the Breed Association'.

The editorial statement below the quote is a tag-a-long statement, used so as to imply it comes from the same source as the quote.

So here we have an erroneous, misleading non-quote, followed by a tag-a-long editorial statement. It exists only because readers do not bother to check the truth of such statements. It is a common propaganda device.

The ADCA breed guidelines are contained in the ADCA's breed description, found here:

www.dextercattle.org/breed%20discription.htm

Here is what the ADCA breed guideline actually says about height:

"Bulls should not exceed more than 44 inches in height nor stand less than 38 inches at the shoulder at three years of age."

Notice that it doesn't say "according to the guidelines". That would be stupid. It doesn't use the adjective "ideal". This guideline applies to all Dexter bulls registered with the ADCA.

The ADCA web description of Dexter cattle that contains the breed guidelines does contain a statement about the ideal Dexter. Here is the quote:

"The Ideal Dexter

Dexters come in two body types, defined as long- and short-legged, because the cannon bones differ in length by about 1 ½ inches. The “long-leg” is a small regular-cow proportional animal; the “short-leg” is a slightly smaller, heavier-set version. There is a minor breeding restriction with the “short-leg” type. Both types produce similar amounts of meat and milk."

Anything written that differs from this is a fabrication of the writer.
 

[Deleted]

Judy,
you have a typo. You have cow and bull at 900#

[Donlin Stud]

Feb 5, 2015 16:49:15 GMT genebo said:

"The Ideal Dexter

Dexters come in two body types, defined as long- and short-legged, because the cannon bones differ in length by about 1 ½ inches. The “long-leg” is a small regular-cow proportional animal; the “short-leg” is a slightly smaller, heavier-set version. There is a minor breeding restriction with the “short-leg” type. Both types produce similar amounts of meat and milk."

Anything written that differs from this is a fabrication of the writer.

I am going to have to read other association's info because I _like_ this statement.

Though I personally would prefer "There is a minor breeding restriction...... modified to There is a minor breeding recommendation.......but I still like it.

And LakePorts: We are crossing fingers our two boys; Bailey and Chab sit around the 36" mark - and then we would be VERY happy campers indeed.
Congrats on Shadwell. I know I will be watching all you post about him with a keen interest just as I did with Mike.

[genebo]

Donna,

Note that the description of the ideal Dexter is quoted from the ADCA breed description. Those are not my words.

I like the words, and would have been happy to have written them as my own, but the credit for them needs to go to the author. The author is probably a succession of committees, but committees can get things right once in a while.

[Donlin Stud]

 Hi Genebo - yep saw you had quoted it from the ADCA. And surprisingly I am only on my second cup of coffee for the morning too

Nope the cup is empty - time for another

[cascade]

Feb 4, 2015 22:14:25 GMT cascade said:

From the Breed Association

"According to the guidelines, the ideal three year old Dexter bull measures 38 to 44 inches at the shoulder"

Anything below or above that range is a fault to be corrected.

Read the the first line of the 2nd paragraph in this link from the Breed Association:

www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_about_dexters.html


Further, nowhere does it say that short legs means anything other than just plain SHORT legs.

It doesn't say that short legs are only short if they are caused by lethal genetic diseases.

There are lots of disease-free dexters WITH short legs


If any normal reasonable person was given a choice between a normal dexter with short legs, and a diseased dexter with short legs, they'd choose the normal one WITH short legs (WITHOUT the genetic chondrodysplasia disease).


Here are three HEALTHY short-legged Dexters WITHOUT the chondrodysplasia lethal genetic disease (you'd have to be STUPID to call these "long legged").

[lonecowhand]

Cascade go back and read jamshundreds request on the KIRK poll and see if you can follow it, I can bring that back up if you like.

[lhaggard]

Kirk, I think where you quoted "...there is a slight breeding restriction with the short legged...", You'd have to be STUPID to not know they were talking about chondro carriers. Why is it that you hijack every thread on this board with your anti-chondro propaganda? We've all heard it--we don't need to hear it again. Please take a chill pill.

[lhaggard]

Meant to say, "minor breeding restriction."

[lhaggard]

Kirk, I apologize. I misread the above quote. It was Genebo quoting the ADCA rather than you. But I still say, everyone knows what minor breeding restriction means.

[cascade]

Feb 6, 2015 0:02:56 GMT lhaggard said:

Kirk, I think where you quoted "...there is a slight breeding restriction with the short legged...", You'd have to be STUPID to not know they were talking about chondro carriers. Why is it that you hijack every thread on this board with your anti-chondro propaganda? We've all heard it--we don't need to hear it again. Please take a chill pill.

I didn't quote that.  But someone else did.

Regardless, there is a "slight breeding restriction" with ALL dexters.    You should AVOID breeding two dexters together that share the same faults.  If you breed two Dexters with very long legs together, you can get offspring that are too tall.   You also should avoid breeding two dexters with weak udder genetics together or you could get extra weak udders.   You should avoid breeding too short of dexters together or you could get dexters below the 38" minimum guideline height for bulls. 

It seems like the supporters of the Lethal Chondrodysplasia genetic disease want to talk in secret-code language to hide the dirty little secret of lethal genes.   But until it's spelled out in black and white, then we can interpret "short legs" as any reasonable person would interpret it:

Short Legs =  Legs that are SHORT and there are lots of dexters with short legs, WITHOUT the lethal chondro genetic disease.


PS.  NO real livestock breeders would refer to lethal genes as "slight" problems, lethal genes are MAJOR problems.

[Deleted]

I guess you will have to put me in the not normal category then. I have been trying to find a Legacy dwarf with no luck. If I were normal I would be raising Angus like every one else.
I assume by real livestock breeders. You mean commercial confinements and yes you are right none of them would raise dexters.

[genebo]

Oh, this is getting confusing. I can't remember which lie to believe any more.

Kirk, are your animals "true short"? How about their offspring?

I saw the 18 month old young bull that was bred from one of your bulls and is now for sale. That is one big youngster! He dwarfs the person standing behind him in his on-line photo.

I remember you saying that your animals' offspring will be 9" taller than your "true short" animals, right? I wondered where you got your figures from.

How tall will second generation (F2 hybrids) be? How many generations will it take for your offspring to outgrow your pastures?

We're not still discussing guidelines, are we?

Why do you call the chondro gene a lethal gene? I have some chondro carriers, and none of them have suffered a lethal result from it. Matter of fact, I looked up the animals that you have bred, and guess what? .... My chondro carrier bull is older than any of your animals. When will the lethal part kick in? Has it already kicked in on yours and are you trying to warn us?

Don't worry. People have been raising traditional little dwarf Dexters for a lot longer than you've been alive. They have managed to survive up until now, and I have no doubt they will survive your labels, too.

I was petting my little 2004 model chondro bull this morning. I wanted to ask him if he was feeling lethal today, but I didn't because I didn't want to hurt his feelings by saying somthing so rude. I don't think he's ever heard the term before. I don't think he even knows you.

[jamshundred]

you have a typo. You have cow and bull at 900#

I had to look twice when I was typing it. . . but that IS in the record.   In other herdbooks it will give the weight limit without specifying any sex.



Kirk,  " A picture is worth a thousand words".  But what words?  Is the picture portraying truth or portraying deception?   You cannot always trust that which you see with your own eyes.

Judy

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

Please identify the photos you say are non-carriers.  I know the identity of one, believe I know the identity of the other, and have no clue on the third. 

We all get your point. . . . but I'm getting the bills for the overage on my data.   I truly understand the means and the motive but. . . . have a heart please!  My bucket has a bottom!

Judy

[lhaggard]

Kirk, I don't know where you got the above picture of the black polled bull but he looks like he came straight out of an Angus Semen sales brochure. He may be a "registered" Dexter but he sure doesn't look like a Dexter. If that's the kind of cattle you like, you should be breeding lowliness or regular Angus and try breeding them down to your "true-shorts" that you talk about so much.

[lakeportfarms]

The pictures that are posted are:

Woodmagic Hedgehog IV

Not sure but it is one from Duffryn Dexters, which are a lot of Woodmagic breedings

The third is Brightlea Benjamin, a Carol Davidson breeding.

[genebo]

Ever since I started searching for Dexters to buy, I've heard people describe some of their cattle as being "proportional dwarfs" or "medium legs" or any of several other terms meant to imply that the ones they were selling were not dwarfs, but just small-scaled versions of non-dwarfs.

I traveled quite a bit, looking for some Dexters to buy. I got to see some of these unusually named animals, and listen to the sellers spiels. I was a raw newbie, and I was on the verge of plunking down some of my hard owned cash for two of these, when I made one more visit. That ruined the non-dwarfs for me.

In looking at a herd, I spotted Pixie. The most georgeous Dexter cow I had seen. She was like a Ruebens painting where the others were Salvador Dalis. I was able to pet her and look down on her broad back. She didn't shiver or show any sign of fear. What a beauty. Pixie wasn't for sale and never would be, but she educated me to what I had to look for. I didn't go back to any of the earlier farms, for their product wasn't what I wanted.

I eventually got some Dexters. They were delivered on my birthday and included a most magnificant bull, Windridge Nollaig (Noelly) and an amazing part Dexter cow named Ruffles, that would steal your heart away.

Over the years I have read many accounts of people selling their own versions of the little Dexters that I love, but I never saw one with the whole package, like Pixie and Noelly and Ruffles had.

Whatever there is in that single chondro gene they carry, it is powerful. It makes the difference between just a cow and a real Dexter.

My original herd included several non-dwarf cows. One of them was the best behaved and best configured Dexter cow I've seen so far, Windridge bantrybeth. She is the dam of the very best offspring that I raised from my dwarf bulls. I have some strong feelings for her and those like her. They have the same majesty that the dwarfs have. The thing they are lacking is the up-close-and-personal loving nature of the shorties. The difference is hard to define, but you can spot it just as well as you can pick out the woman you love from a whole group of women dressed alike. Why did you pick her to fall in love with? The same reason I picked shortie Dexters to fall in love with. It is chemistry.

People can sell you a line about their proportionals, or their medium legs, or their "true shorts", but if you ever got a chance to stand in a mixed herd of them and some real dwarf Dexters, you'll see what I mean. Giggling is allowed.