|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 6, 2015 11:20:34 GMT
Well said Gene! You were, as we also were, fortunate to have stumbled across the dwarf version. I myself aim to introduce them to as many people as I can. Most will start with chondro bulls, and non-carrier cows, just as you have and for the same reasons. Because we have so many, we'll have the dwarf cows as a majority of our herd.
We'll always have some non carrier cows and heifers here, even though it may not represent much of our herd, but they will be rare, and only the very best of the best. That leaves a large percentage of very nice non carriers for sale to our customers, in most cases higher quality that they'll find from another breeder who will keep a higher percentage of their best non-carriers for their own replacements.
By the way, Maggie Moo should be calving in a few weeks. She's starting to develop a very nice looking udder on her. Of course I'll post some photos of mom and baby when it arrives! Since Maggie was out of a cow that carries red and dun, and bred to a red bull, there is a chance it will be red.
|
|
|
|
Post by jamshundred on Feb 6, 2015 17:26:38 GMT
Mike, You were correct. That was an error. Not a typo, just bad eyes and lighting. I corrected it. It should read 800 lbs.
Judy
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Feb 6, 2015 21:56:10 GMT
Kirk, are your animals "true short"? How about their offspring? Why do you call the chondro gene a lethal gene? I have some chondro carriers, and none of them have suffered a lethal result from it. My chondro carrier bull is older than any of your animals. When will the lethal part kick in? The concept of "true short" means that the animal is short AND true-breeding. "True Breeding" is an official genetics term that means that ALL of the offspring will be similar to the parent when bred on similar parent. Dexters (a short breed) are supposed to be 38" to 44" at 3 years ( for bulls). If you slap on a lethal chondro-gene on a family of cows that are 48" TALL, the chondro deformity will subtract 6 inches or so and could result in 42" heterozygous hybrid chondrodysplastic dexters 50% of the time, but those animals won't breed true, just like hybrid tomatoes won't breed true. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_breeding_organismOur herd is a work in progress as we select for truly shorter bulls over the years. We're making excellent progress via hard work in our closed herd. The legs of our calves are NOTICEABLY shorter than our calves from a decade ago. Most all of our younger stock are now meeting the ideal height standard for Dexters, but we still have work to do. I'm promoting the idea of EVERYONE working toward the goal of meeting the ideal guideline for the breed for ALL Dexters. 44" at 3 years (bulls) is plenty big enough for those who want more robust Dexters and 38" at 3 years (bulls) is plenty small enough for those who want smaller Dexters. Concerning lethal genes (lethal alleles), some genes in animals and plants perform critical functions. In mammals, the Aggrecan (ACAN) gene is responsible for guiding normal growth in cartilage and bone. If an animal doesn't have at least one normal functioning ACAN gene, the animal will die at, or before birth. Chondrodysplasia is the result of a broken mutated ACAN gene. The broken ACAN gene is considered a lethal gene because if you have two broken genes and lack a good ACAN gene, the animal will die at or before birth. "Lethal Gene" is an official genetics term. Because the mutated, broken ACAN gene is NOT fully recessive, it also causes early arthritis, early lameness, and early deaths for many adult animals. You won't find many 14 year old healthy chondrodysplastic dexters with no lameness. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_allelewww.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/Mendelian-Ratios-and-Lethal-Genes-557www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lethal%20geneghr.nlm.nih.gov/glossary=lethalgene0Purebred Chrondro Dwarf Dexters look like this (little or no bones because of mutated ACAN genes):  Purebred True-Short Dexters look like this (this Woodmagic bull is de-horned, and is trimmed for a show photo) These are true-breeding.  |
|
|
|
Post by lonecowhand on Feb 6, 2015 22:27:08 GMT
Oh, Here we go....I'm still for booting him, and his baggage...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 22:47:56 GMT
I have nothing to work toward we are already there. Everyone of our dexters meets the standard you list and always have. It does not matter because as you have just read in this thread the original standard is less than 900/800 # there is no height standard. I guess I need a scale now.
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 6, 2015 23:08:36 GMT
Kirk, The photo you link from has the caption... "When Dexter cattle cousins breed, they can produce a "bulldog" - they are called this because of the pronounced brachycephaly. Hey, are bulldog dogs brachycephalic - yep!" You get your facts from a page that says you can get a bulldog calf " when cousins breed" You better watch out, because with all the Saltaire Platinum in your pedigrees in your "closed herd", you are "breeding cousins" all the time and it's only a matter of time before one of these pops out of your cows, according to your sources.www.vet.uga.edu/ivcvm/courses/vpat5215/musculoskeletal/skl/bones03/chondro01.htmStop worrying about what we do quite successfully, (no bulldogs and Dexters well within the expectations of what a Dexter should be) and work on cleaning up your own house with the enormous sizes that your breeding has been producing. Should I post some more photos of mature bulls from your breeding stock that I've found out there in photos? There is a reason you keep going toward Woodmagic photos for your examples, because you don't have them yourself. |
|
|
|
Post by otf on Feb 6, 2015 23:31:15 GMT
Who is this Woodmagic bull whose photo appears so frequently without a name, etc.  Gale |
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 6, 2015 23:39:35 GMT
Gale, it's Woodmagic Hedgehog IV. He was collected last year and is probably going to be available for export to the U.S. at some point. From my understanding there isn't a lot of Hedgehog III available any longer.
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Feb 7, 2015 0:36:04 GMT
You get your facts from a page that says you can get a bulldog calf " when cousins breed" You better watch out, because with all the Saltaire Platinum in your pedigrees in your "closed herd", you are "breeding cousins" all the time and it's only a matter of time before one of these pops out of your cows There is a reason you keep going toward Woodmagic photos for your examples, because you don't have them yourself. Breeding related animals does NOT CAUSE problems... It just allows existing problem genes to pair up and exhibit the bad genes so you can work on eliminating those bad genes. In fact, you should be able to breed a good bull on ALL of his daughters and get good results nearly 100% of the time. If you get bad results from breeding a bull on his daughters, you should cull that bull and maybe cull some of his daughters too. Everyone should be doing MORE breeding of relatives to try to find these bad genes to exterminate them (in the long haul). We've bred a LOT of related animals on our farm with no bad results because we luckily don't have any of those lethal pha or lethal chondro genes on our farm. If we were to find any problem genes, we would eventually cull them, NOT promote them. We lucked out with NOT having PHA, but we worked hard to NOT allow the lethal Chondro gene on our farm. Past dexter breeders who used the Chondro gene to artificially shorten the size of Dexters and hide the true height of Dexters, are responsible for the too-large of Dexters today. If they had all bred for true-short dexters, we would have have a more stabilized short breed today. On our farm we work on correcting too tall of heights with good breeding principles (NOT by infecting animals with lethal genetic bone diseases). I'm happy to see old photos of some of our larger animals from the past so we can compare them to the shorter animals we have today and see our progress. I looked at a photo of our first calves from a decade ago and was shocked at how long of legs they had compared to our more recent calves. We're proud of our progress and we still have a lot of work to do. I like to post genetically HORNED animals in pictures here because I realize that many people on this board like horns (I only have one genetically horned cow and shes about 38" at two years...her polled mother was 40 inches at 3 years). My point is that you can have friendly little horned (or polled) dual-purpose short dexters WITHOUT lethal genes. If you have any of those, I'll be happy to help promote them as long as they don't have lethal genes. |
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 7, 2015 3:53:16 GMT
You get your facts from a page that says you can get a bulldog calf " when cousins breed" You better watch out, because with all the Saltaire Platinum in your pedigrees in your "closed herd", you are "breeding cousins" all the time and it's only a matter of time before one of these pops out of your cows There is a reason you keep going toward Woodmagic photos for your examples, because you don't have them yourself. On our farm we work on correcting too tall of heights with good breeding principles (NOT by infecting animals with lethal genetic bone diseases). I'm happy to see old photos of some of our larger animals from the past so we can compare them to the shorter animals we have today and see our progress. I looked at a photo of our first calves from a decade ago and was shocked at how long of legs they had compared to our more recent calves. We're proud of our progress and we still have a lot of work to do. I like to post genetically HORNED animals in pictures here because I realize that many people on this board like horns (I only have one genetically horned cow and shes about 38" at two years...her polled mother was 40 inches at 3 years). Kirk, many of us here on this board also like to breed and own dwarf Dexters. Apparently you don't know how to breed them successfully. We do however. So respect our wishes and find some more constructive things to post about if you are going to stick around. Otherwise self deport yourself. We've heard enough from you about this, and your obsession borders on some type of clinical personality disorder and poor impulse control. I have multiple examples of recent breedings of yours (not a decade ago) where your bulls and cows have produced other (nowhere near mature) cows AND bulls that already approach or exceed the size of what a Dexter should be. As you have seen already I'm a pretty good web detective and know where to look, even when the photos have been deleted or the page changed. And I'm not just talking about the one you know about that Barb was so upset with. I've shared some privately with others on here. Nobody who has seen them believes your posts, so you accomplish nothing. |
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Feb 8, 2015 2:00:09 GMT
There are some pretty big Dexters in the world, and our farm we consider it to be a fault to be corrected. Just like we consider lethal genes a fault to be corrected, or too short of dexters a fault to be corrected. We can't always predict how big our baby bulls will grow by age 3, but we work diligently to keep bulls at the guideline of 44" or less at age three by using compact bulls in our breeding program and we're making excellent progress. Since some of the horned bulls winning the shows (like this nice-looking de-horned one below) are pretty darn big, perhaps I should stop thinking of too-big as a bad thing, and I should just enter them in the shows to win a prize, instead of working to correct them.  |
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 8, 2015 13:19:37 GMT
How do you select against "too big" Dexters? In another thread you mentioned you sold quite a few of your homozygous bulls last year. I thought you culled (by steering and eating them) heavily and too tall was a fault to be corrected? Aren't bulls supposed to be the "best of the best"? Why are you selling your too tall bulls on to others?
I know the location of a photo on the internet of a 1-1/2 year old bull sired by one of your bulls (your breeding from a few years ago) that is nearly the height of the bull Huey that you picture above. Since the son of your bull is only 1-1/2 years old, he doesn't have the same maturity and weight of the 4 year old bull above, but he still has 2-1/2 years of eating (quite a lot obviously) and growing to do.
Shall I grab the photo of this bull, sired by your bull, off the web page like you seem to enjoy doing to others, and post it for you, and the rest of those visiting this site to see? Actually, I've shared it already with some others on the board privately, so they know what I'm talking about. It also has a man standing next to him so you can get a good idea of his height. He is almost certainly taller than 5'3" Roberta in the photo that you post, and probably also taller than her husband Lee. Oh, yeah, I almost failed to mention, this photograph is photoshopped because the official photographer had a problem with the photo that was taken at the AGM. I suppose you believe that all those photoshopped models in the magazines have natural perfect skin and their thighs, hips, waists, and busts are exactly as they appear in the photos.
|
|
|
|
Post by Blessings Farms on Feb 8, 2015 13:38:20 GMT
Kirk,
PLEASE do start showing maybe you will not have the time to
bother use then. Better yet why don't you become a cattle
judge with all your expertise that may make a reality T V
show. Im confident after a couple shows we will not have
to listen to you anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by bruff64 on Feb 8, 2015 18:39:10 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Feb 8, 2015 22:24:22 GMT
How do you select against "too big" Dexters? One selects against "too big" Dexters by using bulls that tend to bring down the true-height of dexters. The Chondro-Lethal-gene simply hides the true-height of dexters, so that's no good. Our first acquired bull tended to throw some taller calves with longer legs, BUT he also threw a few shorter ones (all non-chondro of course). We selected the best shorter bull calf out of our best shorter/thicker friendler cow with a good udder, to be our first home-bred primary bull on our farm. He was 42" at 3 years and had substantially shorter legs than his sire. We never de-wormed him and he never had any grain (wasn't vaccinated either)... This is 100% forage. This bull threw a lot of shorter, thicker, fast-growing calves.  We like our bulls to mature quickly, grow fast, and be very masculine while being compact. We're trying to select for thickness and fast growth while selecting for shorter (and good conformation). In selecting for shorter stock, you have to be careful or you can accidentally select for slow maturing, or poor growth, or poor masculinity (in bulls), or bad genes/ lethal genes. We like our bulls to mature quickly, grow fast, and be very masculine, yet be 44" or less at 3 years. Here's the next primary bull of our own breeding that we selected for our own use (son of the above bull). He was short and stocky as a calf and he looked surprisingly bullish starting at one month old and matured quickly and he grew thick and fast. He was 43" at 3 years. He is VERY VERY friendly and completely trustworthy - PERFECT behavior. He's A2/A2 and Homozygous polled, and FREE of the lethal genes PHA/Chondro.  Here's a picture of him begging for a rub-down, approaching 4 years old, so you can see his height next to a person  We've got a good number of true-short cows out of the above bulls that I'm hoping will have many bull calves starting next month, so I can have a good selection to choose from for our next primary bull. Breeding consistent cattle takes decades of effort.... Beryl Rutherford of the famous Woodmagic herd and a few other long-time EXPERT Dexter breeders taught me that lethal genes just interfere with the process of selecting for quality shorter cattle. On our farm, we want to have very consistent (non-chondro) 42" - 43" bulls and 40" - 41" cows (at 3 years) as our goal. We're getting a good number in that range, but we aren't consistent enough yet. We'll eventually get there and we've made TONS of progress but we have a ways to go. |
|
|
|
Post by genebo on Feb 8, 2015 23:58:30 GMT
How did you get Mrs. Rutherford to teach you that? Did she come over here or did you go over there? How long ago did this take place? Did she and the other EXPERT Dexter breeders all teach you at the same time? What was your GPA (that is Grade Point Average)?
Who are these other EXPERT Dexter breeders that taught you? Where do they teach? Could I go there to become an EXPERT, too?
Temple Grandin taught at the University of Colorado, and I know a nice lady that she taught. From my experience with the nice lady, I think she paid attention and learned something in class.
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 9, 2015 17:54:30 GMT
Kirk, I will give you credit for being aware of the issue of height in your herd, I believe you are working to improve it. I don't agree with your philosophy of the polled, polled, polled, polled in so many lines of your pedigrees, but at the same time don't want breeders such as you to start using Dexters from more traditional lines to bring back the "Dexter" in your herds. I believe what you are developing is a different breed altogether. I think you do less "freezer culling" than you say. The red polled, or just polled, is not being well served by many breeders out there. Nearly everything is sold on as breeding quality, and bulls left intact. I see it damaging the reputation of the Dexter as a small breed of cattle. It is not anymore, it is in the process of becoming a mid-size breed, mostly due to the pursuit of a single trait, which is the lack of horns. If I were you, I'd be much more worried about losing the status as a small breed. The only thing keeping that reputation intact now are instances such as when we go to a fair with a group of our dwarf Dexters, which wows the attendees. I can tell you from first hand experience, the other breeders there with Dexters (non dwarf, but still well within breed guidelines and many that you would consider "true short") did not get nearly the attention and interest that our dwarf Dexters did. This is not anecdotal evidence, this is actual experience and discussion with people interested in starting with the Dexter breed that attended.
As Gene has said, you're constant obsession and opinionated posts about dwarf Dexters is doing great harm to the breed, and giving you and your herd a poor reputation. There are many knowledgeable breeders out there that customers can turn to, and they will if you continue on as you do, assuming you don't turn them off to Dexters in the first place.
|
|
|
|
Post by genebo on Feb 9, 2015 21:34:42 GMT
Hans,
You saw what I saw when I went to a show or looked at the pictures from a show. Dwarf Dexters took home more than their share of the ribbons.
Remember that in a show, the animal has to act right as well as look right. The extra gentleness in the dwarf demeanor helps them follow their handlers' instructions. Judges notice.
Here is an outstanding video made by the Wall Street Journal about our little mini moos. It's a great video, and Snickerdoodle is the star of the show!
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 10, 2015 2:10:18 GMT
It's easy to cherry pick photos that suit your narrative. The National Champion Wieringa bull Huey, as I've said numerous times, was a photoshopped photo because the one at the AGM didn't turn out well. I've seen and handled Huey in person, and he's not as large as the photo indicates. I've not seen your bulls in person Kirk, but from this photo, he looks pretty big to me.  |
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Feb 10, 2015 5:54:39 GMT
That's funny that you went to all that photoshop bother for me, and the result is VERY funny... but the above bull was 42" at 3 years, and is approaching 44" at 7 years and is VERY VERY friendly, Meanwhile, here's the very nice looking, 48" tall (at 4 years) traditional horned AI bull that was the sire of the other very tall horned bull you were talking about... He's a terrific bull if you want large bulls (and some people do want larger bulls).  The 4 largest bulls in the AI Directory are all horned bulls... Most of the shorter bulls in the AI Directory are polled bulls But there is NO relationship between the polled/horned genes and height or any other dexter feature. The polled gene is a single stand alone gene that simply curtails horn growth. Put the polled gene on tall horned dexters and you'll get tall polled dexters. Put the polled gene on short horned dexters, and you'll have short polled dexters. The good news is that the originator of the polled gene in the US, was a true-short 42" bull, so he tended to bring down the size of dexters. The ONLY way to keep the true height of dexters in the ideal range of 38" - 44" for bulls, is ongoing selection. Using the chondro lethal gene simply hides the true height, by inflicting animals with a genetic disease of the cartilage and bones. The Chondro gene is NOT really a unique dexter trait because the chondro gene is used to make all sorts of crowd-attracting "adorable" waddling runts in all sorts of breeds. There are even chondro-cats The Chondro-gene is one single stand-alone defective gene. If you put the Chondro-gene on an ideal dexter, you'll usually get a dexter that is shorter than the ideal. It may be a circus side-show crowd-pleaser and a fun pet, but it will be less than ideal according to the breed guidelines. If you put the Chondro-gene on too-large dexters, half the calves will still be too large and the other half will be infected with a lethal gene. Dexters can be bred in the entire range of ideal heights of 38" to 44" with all the wonderful dexter traits, but without the lethal chondro gene. I'd love to see some breeders focus on the shorter end of the Ideal Height Range with NON-Chondros (horned or polled) and market them as very simple and easy to keep. You can keep an excellent 39" non-chondro bull with a natural herd including his own daughters with no breeding worries and all your calves will be true-short. No more having to hide the complicated and unsettling facts about the chondro lethal gene. |
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 10, 2015 11:00:35 GMT
I was trying to illustrate the point that you're using a photoshopped photo as your example. I hope you got a good laugh. On the right is a Grandson of the Wieringa's Ned. He's the son of our bull Mike, who is the sire of Wieringa's Paula, who was a many time national champion. The bull on the left is a son of Paula, and a son of Ned. Very similar pedigrees. These bulls are basically the same age, 1-1/2 years old. Our bull on the right is being handled by a 6 year old boy, with his stepdad there just in case, though it really wasn't necessary. The bull on the left has been fed a good deal of grain from the time he was weaned, because he was destined to be a show animal and that is their practice with all of their cattle anyway, as is the case with a lot of owners to be frank. Our bull had never received a bit of grain, he was entirely dam raised and then weaned onto grass and hay, because we never really had any goals for him as a show animal. I will admit that following the return from the fair, our bull did go out in quarantine with some very nice fall grass and clover and did have a spurt of growth, though it was more toward the filling out and not so much from the height standpoint. However I believe this shows how a heavily grain based diet can affect the growth stages, and I believe the results are evident for a number of years. Yours are entirely grass and hay fed as well, correct? Perhaps your feeding practices (don't get me wrong, I agree with them) are hiding the true genetic potential of your herd's height? He has a new home now not far from us, breeding some Charolais heifers, though the owner plans to get rid of the Charolais this spring and get some Dexters to raise instead. It will actually be a good deal for both of us when he does, as he has a relationship with some Amish who produce metal roofing. I traded the bull for roofing to go on a hay storage lean to on the side of our building, and this summer I'll trade some heifers for metal siding to cover the outside block walls of the 18,000 sq. ft. building we have at the farm, rather than trying to fix up the masonry and having to paint it every few years. A dwarf Dexter is a very productive and practical in many situations, not a "circus side-show crowd pleaser" as you claim. They are efficient producers. The hardiest Dexters on our farm during our cold snowy winters are the dwarf Dexters. The dwarf gene imparts a different personality to the Dexter, one that you have NO way of knowing about because you have no experience with them. I think you're afraid of people learning about and experiencing them, and think that if you disparage them early enough you can form and solidify a beginner's opinion of them before they would have the opportunity to experience one for themselves. The tail hair simple test allows one to very easily manage their herd to avoid the bulldog calf, and the enjoyment one gets from them is well worth the slight amount of extra management. 
|
|
|
|
Post by Donlin Stud on Feb 12, 2015 0:16:56 GMT
Gale, it's Woodmagic Hedgehog IV. He was collected last year and is probably going to be available for export to the U.S. at some point. From my understanding there isn't a lot of Hedgehog III available any longer. Theres not much Hedgehog III in number IV either........... WM Hedgehog IVSemen is in Australia |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 15:58:39 GMT
I will start this post out with a disclaimer. I am in know way saying anything bad about wouldmagic animals. I do in fact like them. I do understand with out a test why she did not want to have chondro in her herd. Although there were those who already knew the easiest way to not get bull dogs was to just not breed to dwarfs together. It was not like today with all the internet info out there.
Did she succeed in breeding a short dexter with out the chondro gene? Yes she did but they are not the same as a dwarf. They do look and act different. I would say she was able to breed an entirely new phenotype. Nice animals yes but they are different. I also dont believe this phenotype was locked in as the only one and that they could reproduce them selves every time. In my heavy woodmagic animals and others I have seen. I would say there are 3 distinctive types that come out. One is the one that I think she was going for. We also see some through backs to the much more typical look. I also see a 3rd one that has longer legs and a smaller body. Maybe hard to put into words but I am sure those that have seen all 3 types will know what I mean.
|
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Feb 13, 2015 4:08:58 GMT
Beryl Rutherford of the Woodmagic herd didn't want her True-Breeding Shorts to be "just like the dwarfs" because the dwarfs had many problems beyond the dead deformed calves:
1. She didn't like chondro-dwarfs because they can't breed true, so they aren't a true breed. She wanted a more true-breeding herd (but with some minor variation of course).
2. She felt sorry for chondro-dwarfs because they can't run and kick-up their heals like normal cattle.
3. She felt sorry for chondro-dwarfs because many had to be put down half-way through their productive lives because of the Chondro cartilage and bone disease causing early arthritis.
4. She understood that animal-rights people were pushing to ban the purposeful use of lethal genes in animal breeding.
5. She felt that there was NO way to totally avoid breeding two chondro's together, because breeding accidents do occur.
People breeding for True-Shorts are NOT trying to re-create the dwarf. They're simply selecting non-chondro dexters within the ideal height spectrum, while hanging onto all the great traits that dexters are known for. Some are selecting at the shorter end of the ideal spectrum and some are selecting at the taller end of the spectrum and some in the middle. You don't need Woodmagic animals to do this... you can do this with ANY line of animals simply by selecting for the shorter individuals within that line over a couple of decades. Give it a try for yourself and see what you can do over the decades with your own line of animals.
Can you list any "features" that dwarfs have that non-dwarfs can't possibly have?
I can only think of two:
1. Dwarf cows can give birth to relative giants (compared to their own height) 50% of the time - that's only good for hybrid beef breeders
2. Dwarf cows are often partially disabled with an abnormal gait... they can't walk or run normally so they get fat easier (but you can select for true-shorts that put on fat easily).
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 13, 2015 11:53:49 GMT
Since she's your source of all things Dexter, I've heard that she also inferred that polled came from crossbreeding Kirk. When are you selling your polled ones and getting heavily Woodmagic pedigreed Dexters with horns? And I'm not talking about "distant generations" ago. If you're going to do it without Woodmagic as you say it can be done, then come back in a "couple of decades" and brag about your breeding successes then, when I can't pull up a number of photos online without even searching hard to find examples to the contrary.
I'm asking again, what happened to the photo of the Steer/Bull that was on your photobucket page where you store the photos that you post on the site? Does he not support your claims about breeding short, thick, masculine bulls? Why does he have such a prominent halter rub mark on his muzzle if he wasn't being halter trained? Why halter train a steer destined for beef? We'd like some answers please...after all it's hard to get any context about your posts that refer to photographs, when the photographs have been removed.
Will you please go away and stop with the constant obsession about dwarf shorties? We can live with the polled you raise, but why do you feel the constant need to come on here and argue with members who will never accept your position with respect to the dwarf Dexter? You are arguing with people who have significant investment and ownership of these great little cattle. It isn't normal.
Did you know that we have a little invitation only thread on the board here that we are discussing a variety of topics? Bet you'd like to crash that party too! I think it's safe to say you'll never be invited though.
Oh, and by the way, it's -30 here right now. The shortie Dexters are MUCH better at handling the cold weather than a miniaturized "true short" version of the Dexter. Or do you have experience at those temperatures too? Not that it's stopped you from making claims of other things you have no personal experience with. Do you have weather forecasts like this?:
ISSUED AT 328 AM EST FRI FEB 13 2015
THE WEATHER WILL TURN BRUTAL LATE TONIGHT INTO SATURDAY AS
SNOW...WIND AND COLD ARRIVES. SNOWFALL AMOUNT SHOULD ONLY BE 2 TO 5
INCHES...BUT WITH STRONG WINDS...NEAR BLIZZARD CONDITIONS WILL BE
POSSIBLE...ESPECIALLY WEST OF U.S. 131. COMBINE THESE CONDITIONS
WITH WIND CHILL READINGS WELL BELOW ZERO...INCREASES THE THREAT OF
FROSTBITE IF OUTSIDE TOO LONG.
MUCH OF THE SNOW WILL END BY SATURDAY NIGHT...BUT AS SKIES CLEAR WE
WILL ONLY GET COLDER OVERNIGHT. READINGS OF 20 TO 35
BELOW ZERO ARE EXPECTED. THIS TYPE OF BITTER COLD CAN PRODUCE
FROSTBITE IN LESS THAN 15 MINUTES ON EXPOSED SKIN.
LITTLE RELIEF IS IN SIGHT FOR MUCH NEXT WEEK AS DAYTIME HIGHS ONLY
REACH 10 TO 15 AND LOWS DROP A FEW DEGREES EITHER SIDE OF ZERO.
MORE SNOW IS ALSO EXPECTED TUESDAY AND WEDNESDAY.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 17:19:59 GMT
You are missing my point. They dont always breed true as you say. I noted that in my experience. I see 3 types coming from the heavy woodmagic animals. Given the pictures I have seen from your herd you have the same different types coming from the same animals. You may infarct one day eliminate the taller ones but what also will you be eliminating with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by lonecowhand on Feb 13, 2015 17:52:32 GMT
Holy Cow, Hans! that's really cold! I haven't felt that since I left Chicagoland! Good luck and keep the fire stoked.
Don't leave the cat out!
Bill
|
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 13, 2015 18:04:40 GMT
You are missing my point. They dont always breed true as you say. I noted that in my experience. I see 3 types coming from the heavy woodmagic animals. Given the pictures I have seen from your herd you have the same different types coming from the same animals. You may infarct one day eliminate the taller ones but what also will you be eliminating with it. What Mike says is very true. You'll be at it a long time, and your results may still be somewhat mixed, because your bull selection is a hit or miss with regard to mature height, unless you keep a bunch of intact ones around until they mature. And that poses its own management issues. How do you know for sure that the less desirable bull hopped the fence and bred a cow, then jumped back over? As far as I know you don't genotype your calves. And what becomes of the less desirable ones? How many too tall, poor udder, etc...bulls, heifers, etc... are going to be sold on and used in somebody else's herd in the meantime? If you think you're eventually going to have the reputation of a Beryl Rutherford, you better tone down your rhetoric and stop alienating so many people in the interim, because some of your potential customers may also like the dwarf Dexter. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my little short herd. I can select for size, or any other trait just as easily with them. And I look at it as though I have two seperate but distinct herds. Presently they may be equally split between the two types, but we're working toward making the dwarf cow herd the larger of the two based on our experiences with both, and what we prefer to have. |
|
|
|
Post by cascade on Feb 13, 2015 22:37:22 GMT
You are missing my point. They dont always breed true as you say. I noted that in my experience. I see 3 types coming from the heavy woodmagic animals. Given the pictures I have seen from your herd you have the same different types coming from the same animals. You may infarct one day eliminate the taller ones but what also will you be eliminating with it. The only way to achieve animals with little or no variation at all, is via cloning. So short of cloning, you're going to have some degree of variation. If you are trying to make a true-breeding strain of animal, you have to make a list of the traits that are important to be true-breeding, vs. the traits that you're willing to live with some variation. Since dexters are supposed to a be a short, friendly breed. We should all try to keep ALL our animals shorter and friendlier, but we can live with variation of color (red, black, dun), hair type (ultra curly bulls, vs coarse straight haired bulls), frame-type, etc.. Most traits in an animal can be made to be fairly true-breeding with enough work and time. If you have a list of traits that are important to you, you can select for those traits over many generations and eventually get those traits to breed mostly true. Single gene traits are the easiest to get to breed true. Polygenetic traits (controlled by combinations of many genes) are the most difficult to get to breed true. Selecting for homozygous pairings of gene makes genes breed true. Lethal genes are impossible to get to be homozygous because that kills the animal. So lethal genes can't breed true. If you strongly preferred one of the 3 sub-types that you are seeing in the Woodmagic animals, you could work on that and eventually make that sub-type lock in, or mostly lock in and mostly eliminate the other 2 types. The chondro-gene was very frustrating for some old-timers because no matter how hard they tried, they could NOT make it breed true more than 50% of the time. Some other breeds of animals have also struggled with this. One of the colors in Great Dane dogs is due to a lethal gene and they can't breed true. While breeding animals, there's always a danger of accidentally losing some feature that you don't want to lose due to genetic drift or sloppy selection. Folks who have very "traditional" herds are just as much at risk of accidentally losing something, as anyone else. The ONLY way to keep from accidentally eliminating a trait that's important to you, is to identify ALL those traits and select for them all, generation after generation. Here are the traits I'm trying to work on (have I missed something?): 1. Bulls MUST be VERY friendly and VERY manageable, with lots of personality 2. Cows MUST be sweet and let us work with their newborn calves (tagging/weighing, etc), and should have lots of personality. 3. Dexters must be COMPACT (not too large, not too small) Bulls between 38" - 44" at 3 years (I'm personally aiming for 42"-43"). 4. Dexters must be Black, Dun, or Red... no white other than near udders up to navel.....horns are great, polled is MUCH better than de-horning. 5. Dexters must be Healthy and Hardy - can thrive and easily calve WITHOUT much shelter (other than trees/shade). Can thrive without a lot of chemicals, without a lot of vet work, without a lot of shots. Should have STRONG immune systems. 6. Dexters must be Thrifty - can thrive on forage and minerals alone WITHOUT grain supplements. 7. Dexters must be Dual purpose and productive... Beefy, and milky enough, but not so milky that they MUST be milked. 8. Dexters should have Lots of good general cattle conformation (sound udders, sound feet, strong backs, correct legs, good tracking, masculine bulls, etc.) 9. Dexters should be long-lived... Cows should make it to 18+ healthy productive years with no early arthritis, Bulls should make it to 13+ healthy years (if you don't eat them first). |
|
|
|
Post by genebo on Feb 13, 2015 23:12:09 GMT
Once again, tell us the lie about how Ms. Rutherford feels about Dexters. You must have spent a great deal of time with her to learn her personal feelings so well. Or .... you lie like a rug.
Tell us the day and date of the first time you met Ms. Rutherford, or apologize for telling it.
Tell us just when Ms. Rutherford taught you about Dexters, or apologize for telling that one.
Go down the list of lies, and when you are finished apologizing, go away.
You are not wanted here. You are not welcome here. You are rude, crude and unattractive. Your feet stink and your breath smells like booger-bear. Hate and discontent follow you wherever you go. Your caregiver is not keeping up on your meds.
There are some memory courses available that can cure your pig-headed blindness. Let the light shine in. The next time you read the pedigree that shows Platinum's Angus ancestry, try to remember it. It's tiresome having you ask for it over and over and over.
Chondrophobia: a dread fear of small Dexter cattle.
Hornophobia: a dread fear of small, gentle cattle with horns.
have a seat on the couch and tell us all about when you first developed chondrophobia. What made you decide to fight against the Dexter cattle that so many, over the years, have found so desirable?
At what point did you lose your last contact with the truth?
It's time to go back to your mama Carol.
I will tell you for the second time. Quote me on this so you can try to remember it. My chondro Dexter bull is older than the oldest animal you have registered with the ADCA.
No more repetition about how chondro dexters die young. What is killing your animals? Nyah, Nyah, mine live longer than yours do!
|
|
