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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 6, 2015 18:51:09 GMT
There is surely a lot of confusion out there (or a lot of interpretation) on what constitutes a Correct Traditional Dexter Bull. How about a photo contest for examples of good conformation FROM YOUR OWN BREEDING (no photobombing, please, Kirk) Winner will receive some Perfectly Useless Prize! And of course, the envy of your breeding peers! Post a good side photo, hopefully on level surface, or at least a head shot if the snow's too deep! You Start...  |
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Post by cascade on Feb 7, 2015 6:59:07 GMT
Can you please give us detailed list of what physical traits make a bull "traditional"?
Do they need to have intact horns?
Do they need to be between the height of 38" to 44" at 3 years?
Can they be red?
Do they have to be super friendly and VERY trustworthy?
What other features must "traditional" dexters have?
How can you judge a photo if you don't have a list of criteria?
We have several breeds of traditional livestock on our farm and I know exactly which traits are important for them to remain "traditional".
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 7, 2015 12:12:46 GMT
Since Lonecowhand is the sponsor of the contest, I suppose he should answer your questions. But I'll take a shot with some of my criteria to start off. Do they need to have intact horns? The Traditional Dexter bull should be genetically horned. However, in order to let owners who may have personal reasons for avoiding horns experience the joy of owning a Dexter bull without fear or trepidation, de-horned bulls should be acceptable. We love the horns, however in order to get the Dexter breed into as many homes as possible, we dehorn calves at one week of age the Dexters that would not be listed in the Legacy database as "TH". It also provides a means of comparison for our prospective customers between the look of the horned Dexter, the de-horned Dexter, and the polled Dexter. There are obvious and distinct differences in appearance between the de-horned Dexter and the polled Dexter that they can compare side by side. When able to compare the horned Dexter vs. the de-horned Dexter side by side, people can determine their preference more easily between the various types.Do they need to be between the height of 38" to 44" at 3 years? Most all Traditional Dexter bulls don't have this issue. I would accept smaller bulls than 38" at 3 years due to the dwarf gene, which is a often featured characteristic of Dexter cattle in publications and promotional literature that attract people to the breed in the first place. Since photos are not necessarily all going to be taken at 3 years of age, other sizes are acceptable at different ages.Can they be red? Red is an accepted color in the Dexter breed.Do they have to be super friendly and VERY trustworthy? A photo of you kissing a horned bull on his nose less than 44" tall at 3 years of age may get you extra points.What other features must "traditional" dexters have? A pedigree free of crossbreeding or "upgrading" from modern import bulls. However, rare instances of "upgraded" breeding well back in a pedigree (not repeated over and over again in a pedigree) can result in a Dexter that has virtually all of the characteristics of a Traditional Dexter. For example our old bull Mike was not traditional in the strict sense of the word/pedigree, but was in all other respects...find the "upgrade" in his pedigree:dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=13038&HorseName=shamrock%20mike&Page=1&Sort=0See it? One single instance of Lucifer of Knotting. |
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Post by cascade on Feb 7, 2015 17:38:10 GMT
So, since you allow for no horns, and allow for red, then there really is no physical/behavioral difference between a "Traditional" Dexter and a red polled dexter? So a 44" red hornless dexter bull can be 100% "traditional-looking" in phenotype?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 18:05:31 GMT
no kirk no upgrading allowed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 18:11:57 GMT
our legacy bull magic  and a young legacy bull  |
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Post by genebo on Feb 7, 2015 18:53:46 GMT
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Post by cascade on Feb 7, 2015 20:28:51 GMT
no kirk no upgrading allowed. All dexters have upgrading in their backgrounds... They ALL come from other breeds. I LOVE the black bull , Magic, above.... but he doesn't have horns.... he looks just like our polled dexters, are you sure he's not polled? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 0:35:29 GMT
we do not dehorn unfortunately he was dehorned before we got him. I try not to hold it against him. uprading is when other breeds are used after the breed has been established.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 8, 2015 0:46:03 GMT
Kirk have you ever compared the head of a polled bull to that of a horned (but dehorned) bull? If you have and you still don't see the difference I guess that would explain your other problems identifying the differences in phenotype/physical features between polled and traditional Dexters.
Also, whatever breeds were combined to create the Dexter breed over 100 years ago have gone through dramatic changes during that period of time to suit commercial production demands. You can't compare today's Angus breed to that of years ago, just as Jerseys, Herefords, etc... can't be compared. Therefore introgressions in the last decade or two would have a far greater impact.
The risks of other breeds such as Angus in the Dexter has been dramatically increased since polled was introduced into the Dexter. Previously, there was little to no benefit to bringing in an Angus here in the United States, because the Dexter would have been rejected as "not pure" if it was polled. Today, you can use an Angus or Lowline cow, be assured of a polled calf (possibly even homozygous polled), and simply assign the calf at registration to a cow that has had a horned bull calf. Horned breeders have no incentive to do this, because the polled calf would be rejected as not a true Dexter.
Just like my example of a couple of weeks ago...
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Post by genebo on Feb 8, 2015 1:17:47 GMT
Our traditional Dexters do not have upgrading in their pedigrees. They descend from the foundation Dexter cattle that first came to America.
You are thinking of the crossbreeding that may have led up to the establishment of the breed. That doesn't count. Those weren't Dexters that were crossbreeding, they were the precursors, likely not from any established breed. They had no pedigrees.
That is a lot different from breeding one of our precious registered traditional Dexters and breeding it to a known outcross, as are any that are bred to a descendant of Platinum.
England made a mistake when they let their members register cattle that had been outcrossed, as Dexters. That is bad, but it's their business.
I hold a deep grudge against the Americans who deliberately foisted some of these outcrossed animals on us through deceit. I hold almost as strong a grudge against those who perpetuate this.
Then there is our terrorist, who delights in what he is doing so much that he has to go where he's not wanted, is actually hated, and try to trash talk everything good and original about American Dexters. Surely, by now, it has become apparent that such actions expose the truth behind these actions to the awareness of the people.
How could you ever expect to sell your mongrel cattle to those who have read your ravings? Your words attempt to disparage our pure traditional Dexters, but your actions disparage you and yours.
Nobody is going to say, "Oh, goody! Now I can buy some cows from a nut!"
The truth of it all is that the actions that you and your compatriots take to disparage Dexter cattle has a definite effect. You can go to almost any internet discussion forum for cattle and find people who now universally advise against Dexters as a breed choice. You should be ashamed of yourself for ruining the reputation of Dexter cattle for your personal reasons.
If only I had a vote that counted, I would vote to kick your sorry butt off of this forum and quit providing you with free space to flaunt your version of insanity. You are bad for the breed.
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Post by cascade on Feb 8, 2015 3:14:17 GMT
Huh? Why would someone go to such great length to commit fraud when there are lots of excellent homozygous polled purebred dexter bulls available. I had six of them on my farm this year. Sold most all of them. I'll have bunches more calved starting next month. If you want polled, just get yourself a Registered Purebred Polled Dexter bull, there are SCORES of them in the ADCA. Further, for those of you who like to dream up fraudulent scams, horned breeders could bring in outside animals just as easily... using horned Milking Devons, or Milking Shorthorns or horned Black Welsh cattle or horned Jerseys, or such. But I can't imagine any Dexter breeders thinking of such a thing. I don't understand why a few evil-minded people think about fraud so much. I believe Dexter breeders are a pretty honest group of people. And with today's ease of DNA testing, it's easy to verify parentage. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 8, 2015 4:15:30 GMT
Kirk,
Did you know for sure that you had homozygous polled bulls 2 years ago? Perhaps, if you had bred him to a number of horned cows and didn't have calves, but not until the test was available at UCDavis a short while ago could you be certain at birth. How about your cows? The same thing applies. Sure, there are scores of them today, but it wasn't the case a few years ago when prices were sky high for polled Dexters.
The fact is, 5 years ago if you purchased a grade cow, a cheap Angus type cow (there were lots of them out there), you could take that grade Angus, breed her to a polled (remember you don't know for sure if he's homozygous or not) bull and produce 100% polled calves. And since people were all jumping on the polled wagon trying to capitalize on the demand and high prices, you calves were easily sold (or retained for expanding your polled herd) as registered polled Dexters. Like it or not, those animals are now completely registered and even genotyped Dexters, and being used to parent verify their calves. Nobody takes the DNA markers and analyzes them for purity to the general population of Dexters, and purity against what if others are also generally not available?
Sure, you could possibly do the same with one of the breeds you discuss, but why? There were plenty of horned Dexters available for purchase at a reasonable cost and without a long trip to get them, where such tactics were not necessary to rapidly increase a herd size, or produce a cow/bull that was in demand other than it was a high quality Dexter.
I can point out a recent example where a homozygous polled 7 year old Dexter cow was recently butchered by the new owner due to really poor udder . However, that same cow has produced 3 intact bull calves, all of whom are now breeding other registered Dexters. Why take such a cow's bull calves and put them into the breeding pool? Because they were homozygous polled and the owners could fetch a higher price for a breeding bull off the farm in 5 months, than as a steer that they would have to hang on to for 2 years for beef, that's why. Isn't that a definition of greed, when you consider what effect that has on the breed as a whole???
High prices and easy sales bring out the greed in some people. Maybe you live an isolated life and you haven't learned that lesson yet. Breeders of livestock are no different than the population as a whole. That is why there is a registry.
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Post by cascade on Feb 9, 2015 3:10:35 GMT
When we bought our first Homozygous Polled RED Dexter bull a decade ago, he came with a homozygous polled DNA test from the testing lab. We had our choice of two tested homozygous polled red bulls. The ability to DNA test for homozygous polled has been around for about a dozen years. It wasn't an easy test, but it was effective. Down at the bottom is a copy of our first bull's homozygous polled test from 10 years ago. Most all polled breeders were also breeding for red. If someone already had a heterozygous polled RED dexter bull, why would they commit fraud and use a HOMOZYGOUS BLACK angus instead of their red polled bull? They'd get 100% black calves out of their red dexters. That would be a HUGE setback. It was super easy for our farm to create as many red polled calves as we wanted. We just bought a homozygous polled RED purebred registered Dexter bull and bred him on horned dexter cows and we had TONS of red polled calves, easy as can be. Anybody could have done it, simple and easy and without complex punishable fraud schemes. If you'd like a homozygous polled red dexter bull, just let me know. I'll have bunches born starting next month and most will be A2/A2 (if you care).... but I'm happy that some people still breed for horns... I like looking at pictures of horned dexters.... I'm not a fan of physical de-horning... De-horning is being made illegal in many places. The example of the weak udder is a little misleading. Weak udders can sometimes take a few years to show up. The breeder of the cow with the weak udder, bought the cow back from the original buyer when the udder started to show signs of weakness as the heifer aged. The breeder herself (who bought the cow back for culling) then sold the culled cow AS BEEF. It doesn't get better than that. A cow with a weak udder that is bred on bulls with strong udders can throw very nice females with very nice udders. Udder weaknesses are only moderately heritable (they aren't directly inherited because udders have complex combinations of genes controlling their proper formation, it's not a single bad gene). You don't want to breed weak udder genetics to weak udder genetics repeatedly, but weak udder polygenetics are NOT passed down through the generations the way lethal genes are passed down. A son out of a cow with a weak udder and a sire with strong udder genetics, can throw very nice udders. Meanwhile, while many of us work on addressing weakness and improving stock, some breeders are PURPOSEFULLY spreading lethal genes and purposefully using bulls that have early arthritis from those lethal genes. The Chondrodysplasia defect is completely heritable because it's a single gene that causes the problem. How many of you are culling cows that carry VERY heritable lethal genes? Here's that homozygous polled test from a decade ago:  |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 9, 2015 10:32:40 GMT
The example of the weak udder is a little misleading. Weak udders can sometimes take a few years to show up. The breeder of the cow with the weak udder, bought the cow back from the original buyer when the udder started to show signs of weakness as the heifer aged. The breeder herself (who bought the cow back for culling) then sold the culled cow AS BEEF. It doesn't get better than that. Correction Kirk, the breeder of the cow with the poor udder bought the cow back, and then bred her again to produce a bull, that was sold to somebody parent verified to the cow and one of your bulls too. Fancy that! Why would you take a chance on breeding a cow with a poor udder that you intended on culling, leave the bull intact, and then sell him on without having a clue what he will do to future generations? You've said yourself there are SCORES of polled bulls and cows out there to use. I think the answer is simple...the money is just too good to pass up, when you have such a single mindedness on the part of some people, often new to the breed, to have a polled Dexter. Before you worry about us, you should be policing your own types of breeders. Our purchasers are fully educated about the steps needed to avoid bulldog calves, and we have no PHA on our farm. Can't write any more about this right now, because I have two 14 year old dwarf cows in the barn that appear ready to calve, and with the temperature at -5F right now, I'd like to drive over to the farm and make sure I get the calve(s) dried off so they don't get frostbitten ears or tails. |
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Post by genebo on Feb 9, 2015 15:04:28 GMT
This is Jackson at a fresh bale:
This is Jackson's beefy butt:
Jackson is a steer, not a bull. He will be served at the 2015 ADCA AGM in Harrisonburg, VA. He has a date with the processor next month so he can get into the hands of the chef who will do the cooking. The chef has to practice to make sure he perfects his technique for cooking grass-fed beef.
Jackson is in prime shape. He has a thick pad of fat on each side of his tail head. We have really been pouring the hay to him over the winter, and he has responded.
Y'all come get a taste of Jackson this summer. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 9, 2015 16:08:23 GMT
He looks good Gene! Loved your photos. One of these days I need to find the time to be so organized like you are! I kinda have my hands full for the time being though  We have about 7 or 8, both Dexters and Highlands that we'll be feeding out here in a month or so, these will be the ones we finish with grain and alfalfa hay by early June. I figure since we confine them anyway to keep them from mucking up the wet spring pastures, it's a good time to finish them up. We need to have them ready to go before the start of summer. The grass finished only steers come in the fall after a summer of strip grazing. |
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Post by genebo on Feb 9, 2015 16:30:44 GMT
Hans,
The hay we feed here is much poorer quality than what most people would be happy feeding. I cut, rake and bale my own square bales from neighbor's fields. Not the best. It's all native grass and weeds.
I've been buying two year old round bales from a farmer who retired. The hay was stored indoors, but lost some nutritional value.
I figure the reason I can get such good results from feeding such poor hay is that I feed a heck-of-a-lot of it.
I cut my herd back to 6 Dexters after I broke my leg. There were no round bales fed until I could get back on the tractor. Meanwhile Babe and the neighbors put out some square bales, mostly by the pillow, since they couldn't handle a full square bale.
I had a lot of crab grass in my pastures when I got hurt. It was tall, and hadn't seen much grazing. I don't think that crabgrass tastes good until it cures and frost hits it. The Dexters took their time eating the crabgrass, but finally polished it off by the middle of January. Luckily, that was when I first began walking again. Between Babe and me, we can heave a bale in the back of the Mule and deliver it to the pasture. We put 3 bales a day out for them. Here's a new bale:
You ought to see the height of the manure piles. They look like bee hives and they are dry. Thankfully, the Muscovies can handle them, so they disappear right away. |
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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 9, 2015 19:59:11 GMT
If you don't know what "Traditional Dexter" means, then you don't have one, and probably won't win this contest!
Lakeport 's Hans got it! It's visual examples we're looking for. For our purposes here, traditional means free of outcrossing to other cattle breeds, including modern impostors, since the time the selected dexters were established as a breed.
No doubt Dexters didn't start out Dexters, but there was not supposed to be outcrossing afterward in the U.S.
The idea here is to start a conversation, based on sharing of photos, regarding what to look for in a Bull, not to be critical, but to help folks see what to look for when they're buying in terms of physical attributes.
Dexterfarms Mike knows a good bull when he looks outside and sees his own legacy Magic, a nice full bodied, level top lookin' bull. Thanks Mike.
Paradise Farms Genebo can point at any bull he's bred, because his breeding core are correct traditional animals, as close to the old breed as still exists. Thanks Gene, who are your lucky six we see munching hay?
Lets see some more...and if you are proud of a certain aspect or feature in your example , please feel free to Tout those features!
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Post by cascade on Feb 10, 2015 20:28:17 GMT
I would LOVE to have someone show me exactly what "Correct Traditional Animals" look like, and explain the exact physical difference between Traditional vs "Non-Traditional". So far, you've said "Traditional" is just a pedigree paper issue (invented by a small handful of people) and NOTHING MORE. If that's the case, then don't bother with showing photo's of so-called "Traditional" Dexters, AND stop claiming that they have special traits... just show photo's of paper pedigrees and you can claim something special about the paper pedigree. Here's a young purebred registered Dexter cow.... can you tell me exactly what traits in her PHOTO are, or are NOT traditional traits? I may keep a bull out of her and and I want to make certain the bull has "traditional" traits.  PS. Many decades ago my family raised "Traditional" quarter horses and I'm shocked by how different modern quarter horses look today... I love the old traditional looking quarter horses, and hate the modern looking ones... BUT, I can give you an EXACT LIST of obvious physical differences between modern and traditional. You folks promoting "traditional" dexters fail to provide an EXACT LIST of physical differences, yet you claim those differences exist. |
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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 10, 2015 21:43:47 GMT
Well, the first thing you've got wrong is this is a Cow...
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Post by cascade on Feb 11, 2015 3:14:58 GMT
So you agree...
The idea of a "Traditional" dexter is a paper pedigree definition only...
That's fine, so just be honest about it. Here, I'll help:
"Traditional Dexter" is an invented term used by a small sub-group of American Dexter breeders. The term (as used by this sub-group) is NOT recognized by any registry. It has NOTHING to do with any specific traits or behaviors. It includes both horned and hornless dexters. It includes both chondro and non-chondro dexters. It includes ALL colors including spotted with much white. It includes ALL heights, even giant bulls over 48". It can include dexters that don't even look like dexters. The American sub-group has some elaborate invented pedigree restrictions to exclude or include certain animals in their invented "Traditional" category simply based on pedigree entries ALONE, even though it's thought that ALL pedigrees have some percentage of error and unreliability. This tiny sub-group is able study distant pedigrees and proclaim a dexter as "Traditional" in their minds, but it has no basis in the reality of the animals in the pasture... "
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 11, 2015 11:18:24 GMT
Well, actually no we don't Kirk. As I pointed out in the other thread it's very easy to manipulate photos, adjust the photo angles and select the best shots to emphasize the things you would like to convey. Before I weigh in on your example I'd like to see some other photographs, preferably a side on shot of her in short grass. Holding a newspaper with the date on it that we could read to make sure it was a recent photo would be another plus (like you see on TV with hostage situations), and the ADCA registration number so we could confirm the age. Since you have a youtube page, you could also take some videos of your herd, including the one you posted, so we could see the movement and the behavior.
Oh, and for a traditional bull photo contest, he's pretty feminine, so I don't think you get the prize Lonecowhand has offered.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 17:07:30 GMT
Well, the first thing you've got wrong is this is a Cow... even the calf in the picture seems confused by this looking under there for the parts.  |
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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 11, 2015 17:18:22 GMT
cascade: No, in fact I rarely have agreed with your viewpoint.
If you had payed attention to the Grinstead video instead of planning your next "spew of hatred", you would have seen great examples of traditional Dexters, including bulls (which have balls). A picture is worth a thousand words, but you must look, and see!
I've wasted words with examples that a five year old can understand. So without the use of slanty letters to make me look like I'm quoting someone:
A Traditional Dexter is a cattle that conforms to the breed standard when the breed was first described and formed, with no outcrossing to other breeds since that time. That means no outcrossing to Angus to provide polled genetics, nor other cattle breeds for color variation, or beefiness, or udders, or size, or eye color, or any other trait.
That is pretty clear. If it was ever crossed with something else since the formation of the breed, it's a crossbreed, not a Traditional Dexter.
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Post by cascade on Feb 11, 2015 17:27:39 GMT
Before I weigh in on your example I'd like to see some other photographs, But you folks in your tiny sub-group of Americans who use the invented classification of "Traditional" to describe certain Dexters, say that it doesn't matter how a Dexter looks or behaves... You say your invented use of the term "Traditional" is simply a paper classification with a complex set of rules requiring absolute faith in the presumed 100% accuracy of a 30-generation pedigree and that the 30-generation pedigree must contain or lack certain animals regardless of their physical attributes. So indeed, if one of your "Traditional-on-Paper" Dexters turned out to be 50 inches tall and have LOTS of white spotting and poor behavior, you would still claim it to be traditional simply because of its 30-generation pedigree.... That's because you don't have an exacting physical description of what "Traditional" looks like. I can tell you what traditional Icelandic Sheep should look like. I can tell you what traditional American Guinea Hogs should look like. I can tell you what traditional American Quarter horses should look like I can tell you what traditional Speckled Sussex chickens should look like But you can't tell me what "Traditional" Dexters should look like under your invented paper-definition. If you want to save "Traditional" Dexters, you'll need an EXACTING physical/behavioral description. Simply staring at 30 generation pedigrees will do nothing to preserve traditional phenotypes because of genetic drift. Preserving traditional animals or plants is NOT like preserving an antique chair. Animals change over the generations and it requires constant selection against an EXACTING PHYSICAL/BEHAVIORAL DESCRIPTION to keep them "traditional looking and behaving". I'm still waiting to see your proposed exacting PHYSICAL/BEHAVIORAL DESCRIPTION of "Traditional" Dexters PS. Helpful Hint: If Horns are required for a dexter to be "traditional", then you should exclude de-horned animals from your "Traditional" classification. I assume that you'll also want to exclude certain "wrong" shapes and colors of horns from your physical description of "Traditional" Dexters. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 17:51:11 GMT
If we are such a tiny insignificant sub group then why is it you seem so badly to want to be a part of it. All you really have to do is purchase some different cows. or at the very least stop putting down the foundation of the breed.
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Post by cascade on Feb 11, 2015 18:18:41 GMT
If you had payed attention to the Grinstead video......... you would have seen great examples of traditional Dexters, including bulls..... A picture is worth a thousand words, but you must look, and see! Here's a picture of a Grinstead Bull and Cow.... The Grinstead cow looks just like many of our cows on our farm except some of our cows are a little shorter than this Grinstead cow is. She does have lovely horns and I am glad that some breeders are keeping horns. Other than horns, she looks just like many of our polled cows. The bull has more dewlap than most of our bulls, and he's more sway-backed and has a smaller rear-end and he has longer legs in relation to his small behind, than I prefer. Our polled bulls look a lot more like DexterFarm's excellent "Legacy" bull named "Magic" up above.  Based on the Grinstead cow, I'd say I have Traditional cows EXCEPT for the horns. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 11, 2015 18:38:42 GMT
I'm not sure this bull of yours looks much like the Legacy bull "Magic" at all. Maybe I'm wrong and he's a steer. He should be. I'll let Dexterfarm weigh in on this.  |
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Post by cascade on Feb 11, 2015 23:16:47 GMT
I'm not sure this bull of yours looks much like the Legacy bull "Magic" at all. This is the polled bull that I said looks more like "Magic"  Here's a link to magic from above (nice bull) |
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