Yes - There IS recorded Angus in Dexter cattle

[jamshundred]

KIRK>>>>There is no record of any Angus in ANY dexters that I've ever heard of. Can you please post the exact record that has given you that likely wrong belief? I'll wait here for that record. I've asked for this lots of times any you guys can't come up with anything.

Kirk, there is herdbook/pedigree record of many Angus in Dexter cattle along with many other breeds used in the English upgrading.   Look at the early appendix records on my website historical pages>>>JamsHundred.com

With reference to the US herd, there is herdbook recorded Angus and Jersey in the experimental registry from which Lucifer descended.   The first bull brought in from those breedings, ( there were rumors of many other animals used in the experiment  ( see specific reference to this in Ms. Rutherford's book) with only the Angus and Jersey on record was Atlantic  Anchor via Atlantic Finbar and I will print the herdbook pedigree listing for him as an AI bull below.

Saltaire Platinum has recorded upgrading and rumors of unrecorded upgrading.   There are four instances of outcrossing in the records, but the problem actually is that none of them are recorded as to the breed.  We have NO idea what genetic issues may be silently drifting through EIGHTY-FIVE percent of the American herd carried recessive.  Scary. . .  but *I* think issues are beginning to appear.  Just not enough yet for there to be awareness or attempt to identify.


 

[jamshundred]

Here are the appendix records from A101 to A200.    I copied them but they did not print as copied. .  . . so there is no space between categories.  
First is the appendix number and then the name of the animal being registered.  Then the date of birth if available, color,  the herd book number in roman numerals, the sire and then the dam.  There are a number of Aberdeen Angus animals, you will also see Jersey and Friesien, shorthorn, and in some cases there are "question marks" where the mate was unknown.



A.101 TEMPLETON SMARTIE 1/6/1969 LXIX SYLVAN EBONY 1938 CROSSBRED COW

A.102 VYCANNY PEACHBUDS JERSEY ??
A.103 WOODMAGIC WELSH BUFFLEHEAD

A.104 WOODMAGIC ZEPHYRS WELSH DONLIN 2/6/1969 BLACK LXIX WELSH BLACK WOODMAGIC ZIVOLA 8133

A.105 BRUERNSTOCK JANE 4/19/1969 BLACK LXIX BRUERNSTOCK TOBY (??) CLAYWALLS BLACKBERRY 8337

A.106 TEMPLETON TINA 1/22/1969 BLACK LXIX ABERDEEN ANGUS TEMPLETON CORTINA 8250

A.107 TEMPLETON MORNING GLORY 2/17/1969 BLACK LXIX SYLVAN EBONY 1838 CROSSBRED

A.108 TEMPLETON FINA 4/2/1969 BLACK LXIX ABERDEEN ANGUS TEMPLETON DAUPHINE 8284

A.109 TEMPLETON TINY 4/13/1969 BLACK LXIX ABERDEEN ANGUS TEMPLETON CRESTA 8312

A.110 TEMPLETON HAWKLET 4/26/1969 BLACK LXIX ABERDEEN ANGUS TEMPLETON HAWK 8251

A.111 BRAMBLE OF POPLARS 5/29/1969 BLACK LXIX DAIRY SHORTHORN SUMMERDALE FINCH 2ND 7908

A.112 FLIXTON PENELOPE 5/19/1969 DUN LXIX JERSEY VYCANNY CONKSON'S PRIMROSE 8410

A.113 TEMPLETON PETA 6/24/1969 BLACK LXIX SYLVAN EBONY 1838 CROSSBRED

A.113 VYCANNY TARTAN TREWS

A.114 TEMPLETON MAXI 7/21/1969 BLACK LXIX ABERDEEN ANGUS TEMPLETON MINI 8301

A.115 VYCANNY TARTAN TREWS ----- --- LXIX No info No info

A.116 BADBY GARNISH 2/18/1969 DUN LXIX JERSEY STREBOR WATERCRESS 8184

A.117 BADBY OVALTINE 7/3/1969 DUN LXIX PARNDON DRAGON JERSEY

A.118 BADBY COCOA 7/3/1969 BLACK LXIX PARNDON DRAGON CROSSBRED

A.119 HARRIET OF SHADWELL 2/9/1968 BLACK LXIX SHADWELL ROBERT 1978 NO INFO

A.120 JANE OF SHADWELL 4/26/1968 RED LXIX SHADWELL ROBERT 1978 CROSSBRED

A.121 URSULA OF SHADWELL 8/16/1968 BLACK LXIX SHADWELL ROBERT 1978 FRIESIAN

A.122 FRANCES OF SHADWELL 8/27/1968 BLACK LXIX SHADWELL ROBERT 1978 CROSSBRED

A.123 VALERIE OF SHADWELL 8/28/1968 BLACK LXIX SHADWELL ROBERT 1978 FRIESIAN

A.124 NO INFO -- LXIX

A.125 CONSTANCE OF SHADWELL 10/21/1969 BLACK LXIX SHADWELL ROBERT 1978 FRIESIAN

A.126 ROCK FAIRY -- BLACK LXIX ?? ??

A.127 NO INFO -- LXIX

A.128 TEMPLETON WARDIE -- BLACK LXIX ?? ??

A.129 TEMPLETON LOLETTE -- BLACK LXIX ?? ??

A.130 TEMPLETON EARTHA -- BLACK LXIX ?? ??

A.131 TEMPLETON TRICIA -- BLACK LXIX ?? ??

A.132 TEMPLETON DOPEY 9/21/1968 BLACK LXIX MARSH WARRIOR 1777 GUERNSEY

A.133 TEMPLETON TWINKLE 11/27/1968 BLACK LXIX SYLVAN EBONY 1838 JERSEY

A.134 TEMPLETON LULU 8/9/1969 BLACK LXIX SYLVAN EBONY 1838 CROSSBRED

A.135 TEMPLETON SEBONY 11/19/1969 BLACK LXIX SYLVAN EBONY 1838 JERSEY

A.136 JOAN OF SHADWELL 7/1/1967 BLACK LXIX VYCANNY PECHJUILLET PETER 1952 ??

A.137 ANNE OF SHADWELL 4/11/1969 BLACK LXIX SHADWELL ROBERT 1978 FRIESIAN

A.138 HOMER RIXEY PIELLA 11/26/1969 BLACK LXIX CROSSBRED WOODMAGIC PETREL 7727

A.139 WINDWARD SALLY -- LXIX ?? ??

A.140 ATLANTIC KAROME 3/21/1969 BLACK LXIX ABERDEEN ANGUS ATLANTIC KARINA APP A96

A.141 ATLANTIC ALAUNA 8/14/1969 BLACK LXIX ABERDEEN ANGUS ATLANTIC ALVA 8404

A.142 ATLANTIC PETRA 8/23/1969 BLACK LXIX SHORTHORN ATLANTIC PEACHBLOSSOM 7610

A.143 ATLANTIC ALLEYOOP 8/24/1969 BLACK LXIX ABERDEEN ANGUS ATLANTIC ALLEYMARBLE 8096

A.144 TEMPLETON HUNTRESS

A.145

A.146

A.147

A.148 WOODMAGIC BAMBI

A.149 WOODMAGIC BAMBI

A.150 TEMPLETON LOLITA

A.151

A.152

A.153

A.154 BRUERSTOCK JANE

A.155

A.156

A.157

A.158 TEMPLETON RABBIT 2/14/1971 BLACK LXX WOODMAGIC RABBIT 1981 SADIE ( JERSEY)

A.159 TEMPLETON DOELLA 2/21/1971 BLACK LXX WOODMAGIC RABBIT 1981 HEIFA (JERSEY)

A.160 TEMPLETON SUNNY 3/3/1971 BLACK LXX WOODMAGIC RABBIT 1981 CROSSBRED

A.161 TEMPLETON MERRY 7/10/1971 BLACK LXX WOODMAGIC RABBIT 1981 HAPPY ( JERSEY)

A.162

A.163

A.164 HOMEY RIXEY ROBERTA B 5/6/1971 RED LXX RUNNYMEDE BANTAM 1999 FRIESIAN

A.165 MELBRY DUSKY MAID 5/22/1971 BLACK LXXI UNREGISTERED ROCK ROLY BUTTON 8249

A.166 TEMPLETON ELIZABETH 10/2/1971 BLACK LXX JERSEY TEMPLETON VICTORY 8393

A.167 TEMPLETON MEG 11/3/1971 BLACK LXX WOODMAGIC RABBIT 1981 JERSIAN (?)

A.168 TEMPLETON SQUIB 11/5/1971 BLACK LXX JERSEY TEMPLETON FARINA 8271

A.169 TEMPLETON JUANITA 11/30/1971 BLACK LXX JERSEY TEMPLETON HUSKY 8343

A.170 TEASDALE APPLE 7/15/1970 BLACK LXX PARNDON CHARLEY PUDDING 1928 OAKLEAF BLACK MAGIC 8323

A.171 WANTSLEY BLACKBERRY 2/2/1971 LXXII ?? ??

A.172 WANTSLEY NUBIAN 4/12/1971 LXXII ABERDEEN ANGUS ROCK ROLY ROSE 8107

A.173 WANTSLEY NOMAD 4/27/1971 LXXII ABERDEEN ANGUS SUSAN OF CLEYHILL APP B.69

A.174 TEMPLETON CHARLOTTE 2/4/1972 RED LXXII PARNDON CHARLEY PUDDING 1928 JERSEY

A.175 TEMPLETON TANIA 7/26/1969 LXXII ABERDEEN ANGUS ROCK FAIRY APP A.126

A.176 TEMPLETON KITTY 8/251969 LXXII TEMPLETON HEINZ TEMPLETON EARTHA APP A.130

A.177 TEMPLETON COOT LXXII WELSH BLACK WOODMAGIC MALLARD 8352

A.178 WOODTOWN DAINTY

A.179 ST ARVANS PRINCESS POLLY 2/6/1972 BLACK LXXII ST ARVANS EBONY BOY 2012 PARNDON PRINCESS ??

A.180 WOODTOWN WAGTAIL 7/1/1972 BLACK LXXII CANWELL SATAN 2014 FRIESIAN

A.181 VYCANNY PENNYLOPE 3/30/1972 RED LXXII SHORTHORN STREBOR PRIMROSE 2ND

A.182 TEMPLETON TRIXIE LXXII ABERDEEN ANGUS ALLEYN SUZIE

A.183 HOMER RIXEY SILVAN BELLE 2ND 4/24/1972 LXXII RED POLL WOODMAGIC BROADBILL 8236

A.184 DOESMEAD SNOW OWL 5/21972 LXXII DOESMEAD CAMBO 1960 DOESMEAD SNOWDROP

A.185 WOODTOWN JENNY WREN 9/5/1972 BLACK LXXII ABERDEEN ANGUS WOODMAGIC ZEPHYRS DOVE 8423

A.186 WANTSLEY PIXIE LXXII PARNDON CHARLEY PUDDING 1928 ??

A.187 WOODMAGIC HOT CROSS BUN 4/7/1971 LXXII WELSH BLACK WOODMAGIC MARSH HARRIER 8511

A.188 WOODMAGIC AUK 6/23/1971 LXXII WELSH BLACK WOODMAGIC AVOCET 7929

A.189 WANTSLEY HOBBY 4/21/1973 BLACK LXXIII ABERDEEN ANGUS TEMPLETON HAWK 8251

A.190 WINDWARD DELICIOUS 5/27/1973 BLACK LXXIII RED POLL DOESMEAD DINADAW 7514

A.191 MORWITH MARY

A.192 MORWITH MANDY 6/15/1973 BLACK LXXIII ABERDEEN ANGUS WOODMAGIC MELODIUS WARBLER 8583

A.193 BRUERNSTOCK BUTTERCUP 4/1/1972 BLACK LXXIII BRUERNSTOCK NERO ?? BRUENSTOCK JANE APP.A.154

A.194 DOESMEAD SNOWDRIFT 1/1/1965 LXXIII DOESMEAD DIABLO 1883 DOESMEAD SNOWDROP

A.195 WINDWARD SYBIL 10/16/1968 LXXIII DOESMEAD CAMBO 1960 DOESMEAD SNOWDROP

A.196 WINDWARD SNOW GOOSE 6/5/1973 BLACK LXXIII DOESMEAD CAMELOT 1997 DOESMEAD SNOWDROP

A.197 WINDWARD HERMYTE 4/7/1973 BLACK LXXIII ABERDEEN ANGUS TEMPLETON HERALD 8451

A.198 WINDWARD PICCY 8/23/1973 BLACK LXXIII RED POLL DOESMEAD PINSTRIPE 8200

A.199 WINDWARD MUSTANG May-72 LXXIII ?? PARNDON MUSKY 7650

A.200 WINDWARD RED ROSE Jul-72 LXXIII DEVON DEXTER COW

A.201 SARUM BRAMBLE BERRY 4/28/1973 BLACK LXXIII ABERDEEN ANGUS SARUM BRAMBLE 8632

A.202 VYCANNY TOT 6/28/1972 BLACK LXXIII JERSEY BYCANNY CONKSONS GLENLOOUIE 8409

[cascade]

1. ALL dexters have non-dexters in their backgrounds

2. There is NO record of Angus or any other breed in Saltaire Platinum... His ancestors' crosses could be Kerry Cattle or even unregistered dexters.

3. Inbreeding/linebreeding has found no negative recessive genes in Saltaire Platinum.

4. Problem genes come from mutations.   They are just as likely to pop up in a legacy dexter as anywhere else. 

[lonecowhand]

Kirk, am I mistaken, or wasn't that your quote at the top of Judy's thread!?! You wanted evidence, it is undeniably provided.

[nicosteintjesholland]

Jay Hunt (Saltaire) and her sister Philippa Laing (Templeton) were 2 from 5 or 6 breeders in the early 70ties who keep the Dexter alive. Without them there were no Dexters at all in Europe. I don't know the situation overseas.

They upgraded with other races, not because to bring better genes in the herd, but to avoid inbreeding. They just had to do that, because they had to live from the Dexter cows. Those who were milking were using Jersey and those who gone for meat were using Aberdeen Angus. Mostley they bought Jersey crosses or AA crosses with unknown mothers, because they were cheaper. The goal was to cross anyway (with Dexter). That's what they told me last year when they were in Holland to judge our cows.
We didn't speak about Platinum because he is not used in Holland.

I have seen the Saltaire herd in 2013. Jay Hunt has still a very nice group of short cows. She sells al the non-short heifers. Bull calves are castrated (90%) when they are only a few days old. Maybe a few hours! I think she's still breeding the most breeding bulls in England!
Short is her absolute favourit. She doesn't give anything about polled. "It's just there, or it isn't" But she doesn't love the pointed heads.

[nicosteintjesholland]

About purity:
We all follow the holy herdbooks, that's the truth. But to be honest: Can it be that nothing went wrong before the appendix system started in the sixties? I doubt, but the information out of the herdbooks is the best we have, And I truly want to believe.....

[Deleted]

avoiding inbreeding may have been the reason they gave. but I disagree there is no reason to avoid inbreeding. I am not up on all the herds over there. but woodmagic did it and still going today.

[cascade]

Feb 16, 2015 23:36:16 GMT lonecowhand said:

Kirk, am I mistaken, or wasn't that your quote at the top of Judy's thread!?! You wanted evidence, it is undeniably provided.

I wanted someone to finally come out and say that there is NO written record of any ANGUS in Saltaire Platinum

And I thank Judy for confirming that there is NO WRITTEN RECORD of any angus in SALTAIRE PLATINUM

Here's JUDY'S quote from above:


"There are four instances of outcrossing in the records, but the problem actually is that none of them are recorded as to the breed."


The distant outcrosses might even have been to unregistered dexters.   Maybe that's why they didn't record the breed with Platinum's ancestors, while breeds were recorded in other animals.

All that said, ancient pedigrees are fun to look at, but it's the most recent 2-5 generations that really count....  Anything older than that simply gets washed out unless you work really hard to hang onto one or two alleles from any specific individual animals from the distant past and that is very difficult to do.

Also, remember that all the British breeds of cattle share 99.99% of the same genetics.    The differences in one breed to another come from the frequencies and combinations of the genes.   

[lonecowhand]

Oh, That One! You meant the Thick Magic Bull whose horns just Miraculously vanished!

But your quote does say: "there is no record of Angus in ANY dexters..." which was sort of clear.

So given the evidence above, does that lead you to believe, now that you see, that incredibly , "inconcievably", someone outcrossed a Dexter, and that maybe they used a Polled outcross?

[jamshundred]

"2 to 5 " generations is all that matters?   Surely you jest?   Tell me straight Kirk. . . If I offered to sell you a Dexter that I told you had a Jersey sire in 4th line (which removes the "made-up-by-man" purebred status. Would you buy it and breed it into your herd?  Pffff!  You would not

let me direct everyone's attention to the appendix entry 138 above. Doesn't the name ring a bell?  Homer Rixey Piella is the cow recorded in 1969 who later was re-registered with a different sire which was crossed out on the DCS archived record but never officially changed which is Saltaire Platinum's grand mum.   Just one of the outcrosses in that grade bull which did NOT qualify for registration even if there had been a novel event....which there wasn't.  

Judy

[jamshundred]

PS. Kirk. I mis-spoke. There actually is a known outcrossed breed in SP's pedigree
The black welsh that came in on the Woodmagic outcrossed animal

Judy

[nicosteintjesholland]

Feb 17, 2015 15:47:28 GMT @dexterfarm said:

avoiding inbreeding may have been the reason they gave. but I disagree there is no reason to avoid inbreeding. I am not up on all the herds over there. but woodmagic did it and still going today.

Inbreeding is bad!
Look at the herdbooks the last decade of the real Woodmagics. And look how many alive progeny they gave birth to!
In the early years the inbreeding% were not that skyhigh, but in the end their were no opportunities left.

these Woodmagic animals have descendants in our herdbook: pedigrees known back till 1940. First number is inbreeding% then name and birthdate:

15% Woodmagic Weasel 11-1-1970
11% Woodmagic Mink 27-1-1970
7% Woodmagic Pallass Warbler 21-9-1970
0% Woodmagic Parulas Warbler 23-9-1970
23% Woodmagic Midget 2nd 27-11-1970
0% Woodmagic Pochard 1-1-1971
11% Woodmagic Beaver 2-2-1971
13% Woodmagic Zephyr's Dowitcher 13-9-1971
37% Woodmagic Magpie 2nd 6-10-1971
19% Woodmagic Mouse Hawk 2nd 19-12-1971
0% Woodmagic Avocet 1-1-1972
6% Woodmagic Zephrys Dipper 8-1-1972
31% Woodmagic Fox 31-1-1972
18% Woodmagic Moss-Cheeper 2nd 1-9-1972
12% Woodmagic Musket 2nd 22-11-1972
12% Woodmagic Phalarope 1-1-1973
16% Woodmagic Muscovey 3rd 1-1-1973
31% Woodmagic Squirrel 2nd 19-12-1973
31% Woodmagic Mandarin 4th 1-1-1974
14% Woodmagic Stoat 7-2-1974
23% Woodmagic Manikin 2nd 9-10-1974
31% Woodmagic Mink 2nd 5-11-1974
18% Woodmagic Meadow Pipit 13-11-1974
3% Woodmagic Hedgehog 4-12-1974
6% Woodmagic Zephyrs Duck 1-1-1975
0% Woodmagic Sparrow 5-10-1975
41% Woodmagic Missel Cock 7-10-1975
18% Woodmagic Martin 3rd 26-11-1975
29% Woodmagic Marsh Harrier 13-12-1975
13% Woodmagic Godwit 1-1-1976
14% Woodmagic Roebuck 10-3-1976
33% Woodmagic Mocking Bird 2nd 29-7-1976
41% Woodmagic Melodious Warbler 2nd 15-10-1976
13% Woodmagic Pratincole 2nd 16-10-1976
0% Woodmagic Mountain Hare 23-10-1976
18% Woodmagic Manuela 2nd 31-10-1976
16% Woodmagic Macaw 2nd 3-2-1977
16% Woodmagic Mallard 5th 8-12-1977
27% Woodmagic Pine Martin 27-12-1977
13% Woodmagic Guillemot 1-1-1978
35% Woodmagic Merlin 4th 13-1-1978
39% Woodmagic Modena 29-8-1978
18% Woodmagic Sprosser Cm 28-12-1978
22% Woodmagic Porcupine 10-1-1979
25% Woodmagic Mottled Swift 2nd 17-1-1979
19% Woodmagic Martial Eagle 6-9-1979
25% Woodmagic Mouse 27-9-1979
20% Woodmagic Mot Mot 8-10-1979
8% Woodmagic Eagret 1-1-1980
26% Woodmagic Blackbird 2nd 6-4-1980
33% Woodmagic Monk Seal 6-7-1980
15% Woodmagic Pygmy Falcon 16-12-1980
19% Woodmagic Mangrove Kingfisher 1-10-1981
14% Woodmagic Trefoil 30-9-1982
29% Woodmagic Mayweed 10-10-1982
30% Woodmagic Rabbit 2nd 26-10-1982
28% Woodmagic Medick 25-12-1982
17% Woodmagic Mercury 1-1-1983
29% Woodmagic Macaque 17-1-1983
15% Woodmagic Foumart 22-1-1983
25% Woodmagic Pheasants Eye 27-3-1983
18% Woodmagic Cuthberts Pennywort 22-9-1983
6% Woodmagic Cuthberts Pepperwort 7-12-1983
32% Woodmagic Magpie 3rd 14-5-1984
17% Woodmagic Macaw 3rd 12-10-1984
39% Woodmagic Merlin 5th 12-8-1985
26% Woodmagic Swallow 10-11-1985
16% Woodmagic March Hare 2nd 21-3-1986
30% Woodmagic Dolphin 1-4-1986
26% Woodmagic Siskin 4th 22-11-1986
23% Woodmagic Moss Cheeper 3rd 14-6-1987
40% Woodmagic Dormouse 2nd 10-11-1987
33% Woodmagic Mandarin 5th 14-3-1988
29% Woodmagic Badger 5th 22-3-1988
26% Woodmagic Manumea 4th 10-9-1988
34% Woodmagic Drongo 3rd 19-3-1989
21% Woodmagic Mink 3rd 17-5-1989
31% Woodmagic Missel Cock 3rd 16-6-1989
37% Woodmagic Swift 4-6-1990
27% Woodmagic Monaul 3rd 28-6-1990
46% Woodmagic Hedgehog 2nd 25-5-1991
29% Woodmagic Khaola Bear 10-6-1992
30% Woodmagic Musk Ox 6-6-1993
27% Woodmagic Sprosser 2nd 27-6-1993
29% Woodmagic Marabout 5th 11-11-1993
32% Woodmagic Mudlark 11-6-1994
31% Woodmagic Brown Mouse 13-5-1995
36% Woodmagic Mallee-fowl 2nd 25-5-1996
29% Woodmagic Black Rat 11-6-1996
32% Woodmagic Meadowlark 2nd 15-8-1996

Nico

[cascade]

Inbreeding simply doubles up on genes.. If you have great genes then you double up on greatness. If you have mediocre genes, then you double up on mediocre genes. If you have disaster genes, then you double up on disaster genes and get dead calves. Inbreeding causes no problem genes, it just helps FIND problem genes. If you have an animal with a 40% inbreeding coefficient that has poor features and exhibits problems, then that's a nightmare because those poor features a likely locked in. If you have an excellent animal with excellent features and he has a 40% inbreeding coefficient, then he's likely a superstar with many great homozygous pairs of great genes and he'll pass that greatness on to his offspring very strongly.

Overdoing inbreeding can sometimes result in fertility issues, but NOT always if you select for excellent fertility generation after generation. There are some breeds of experimental animals that are so inbred that they are nearly clones of each other and they do very well (but they were selected carefully to eliminate any negative genes and any mediocre gens).

But in the real world when breeders run into a wall with some issues that can't be addressed within their own inbred herd, they sometimes have to do an outcross to another strain to get the alleles they need to address an issue.

[nicosteintjesholland]

I'm told every creature in the world has 3 or more hidden defects. We don't even know who has which. And I'm not the person trying to find them by inbreeding. Rather stay unknown.

What you say about a inbred superstar is thru. Inbreeding is not hereditary.

[genebo]

Linebreeding does not double up on genes. If a Dexter is homozygous for a great trait, then breeding that one to an identical one will simply duplicate the homozygous genes. It is impossible to double up on the greatness.

Another fiction that you needed to be called upon.

Do you find the truth to be too boring and unsensational? I find it fascinating and find no value whatsoever in making up a non-truth.