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Post by cascade on Feb 27, 2015 21:27:10 GMT
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." ~ Upton Sinclair Is it true that you have ZERO Chondro Cows on your own farm because you're afraid of having dead calves from the lethal gene? Is it true that you just create young lethal gene carrying heifers and sell them all off at very young ages, because you're afraid that if your chondro-bull breeds them, you'll have dead deformed calves from the lethal gene? Do you give prospective buyers this important information about the Chondro Lethal gene so they can be fully informed? www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_article_chondrodysplasia.html |
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Post by cascade on Feb 27, 2015 21:52:58 GMT
The Woodmagic herd had changed so drastically, the scientist who did the research for the Cardiff project very clearly and consistently states they were, in essence, a new breed. Why is that? She concentrated her breeding on only a few animals. . . . . where did the Dexter go? Did it leave with the dwarf genes? Anytime you select a tiny handful of animals and isolate them to form the foundation of a closed herd, and breed a herd from them in isolation for a number of decades, you will get this effect. It's how strains/lines within breeds are developed. I hope the scientist who did the Cardiff project wasn't surprised by this result because that's exactly what you would expect to find. It's genetics 101. You find this same result in any old isolated pure strains. The only way to develop a true pure strain/line of cattle within a breed, is to isolate the strain from the rest of the breed and to maintain a mostly closed herd. Over time, individual pure strains will start to have a genetic profile that is different from the average for the breed. This just means that the breeder is creating a TRUE line/strain. That can take decades of work to accomplish this. The ONLY thing that identifies an animal as being part of a breed is its breed characteristics. A breeder could select some legacy dexters and come back in 40 years with a strain of wild, mean, giant, heavily white spotted animals with the purest of legacy pedigrees. You'd hardly call them Dexters because they weren't selected to have dexter traits. The Woodmagic strain/line of Dexters was selected to have dexter traits. I don't see any non-dexter traits in this excellent dun, genetically horned Woodmagic (non-chondro) cow:  |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 27, 2015 21:57:38 GMT
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." ~ Upton Sinclair Is it true that you have ZERO Chondro Cows on your own farm because you're afraid of having dead calves from the lethal gene? Is it true that you just create young lethal gene carrying heifers and sell them all off at very young ages, because you're afraid that if your chondro-bull breeds them, you'll have dead deformed calves from the lethal gene? Do you give prospective buyers this important information about the Chondro Lethal gene so they can be fully informed? www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_article_chondrodysplasia.htmlHey Kirk, I know you're addressing Genebo, but I can tell you about our herds. I have a herd of many dwarf cows. I run those with a non-carrier bull (or two). I have a herd of many long legged cows. I run them with a dwarf bull. I have zero bulldog calves. I have two separate and distinct herds of Dexters. What is so difficult about that to understand? Would you care to comment on this? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Decisions...decisions
Jan 1, 2013 at 1:01pm QuotePost Options Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jan 1, 2013 at 1:01pm
On our farm, we keep ALL of our animals intact - No castration. In the case of our hogs and lambs, we usually slaughter them at about the same time they are starting to sexually mature. Our American Guinea hogs and Icelandic Sheep have nice meat even when left intact. We've eaten 5 year old boars and rams and they were yummy, but our breeds are famous for mild meat and not requiring castration (we don't need to dock tails on our lambs either because they have naturally short tails).
In the case of our Dexters, we also keep them all intact. We typically keep at least 2 or 3 breeding bulls anyway, so managing more breeding-age bulls is no problem for us. The nice thing about this approach is that we get so see natural behaviors and natural growth and we can delay decisions (to keep or eat), until slaughter time.
We'll sometimes have someone approach us asking to borrow one of our bulls for breeding their unregistered herds. We're a closed herd and we don't loan bulls out (we don't want any STDs), but we sometimes we offer our good, but less than perfect bulls at or above premium meat prices with the understanding that folks will use the bulls to breed their herd, and then slaughter them for meat. It's a win-win situation. We get more than premium meat prices, and the buyer gets some excellent beef and some excellent calves, and they don't have to keep a bull year-round.
It's difficult to see how a bull is going to turn out until they are 18 months old at least, so keeping them all intact is a big help in selecting premium bulls. Additionally, eliminating castration helps us remain as natural and chemical free as possible (no vaccination, no antibiotics, no de-wormers, no pesticides, no de-horning).
This natural, no-castration approach is certainly not for everyone, but it works VERY VERY well for us.
Additionally, when it comes to judging bulls, what you see, isn't always what you get. Some excellent-looking bulls are heterozygous for their good traits and their calves can be very inconsistent. Other bulls are more homozygous for their good traits and can consistently pass their excellent traits to their calves.
A heterozygous bull has mismatched pairs of genes so he sometimes passes a good gene and sometimes passes a hidden bad gene. A homozygous bull has more identical pairs of genes so he almost always contributes his good genes (because he mostly only has good genes).
Inbreeding/linebreeding tends to create homozygosity. Excellent looking/behaving bulls from heavy line-breeding programs are MUCH more valuable than equally good-looking bulls with a more random pedigree.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ If you go and do a search on your farm on the ADCA website, it shows that you have few if any of your Dexters genotyped or parent verified. With so many intact bulls on your farm, how do you know for sure who bred whom when you don't parent verify??? Isn't it possible you have a "sneaker" who jumps over the fence and then jumps back? You always claim that those of us who run dwarf bulls run that risk if we also have dwarf cows in a separate group. But you know what? Dwarf bulls don't jump like long leg bulls do. Doesn't the fact that you're essentially having to keep so many intact bulls separate from your not quite yet breeding age heifers that are too young, and your heifers or cows that you want a particular bull to breed, create a lot of management problems? That would be what, at least three separate groups of Dexters that you need to manage wouldn't it? It's not so simple and care free as you like to claim is it?. Shut up and go away, and get your own house in order. |
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 27, 2015 23:54:17 GMT
I see the battle between the two camps. Both overreacting and both thinking they have gold in their hands.
Genebo is not reasonable at all by telling to shut up when his type of Dexter is not my favourit.
Cascade is overreacting by overloading facts against the dwarf. He denies Dwarfs have some benefits. I don't understand why he keeps on going and going with his battle. I had given up earlier, not because he doesn't have reasonable points, but because he shall never be heard on this board with 80% dwarf breeders.
I've deceided not to choose in your battle. I'll stop writing about what my experiences are overseas. Maybe after a decade or something, when we have stabelised our herd and can show what's possible in Dexter breeding.
Wish you all all the luck in conservate or improve your Dexter herd.
All the best,
Nico
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Post by cascade on Feb 28, 2015 6:54:56 GMT
You and I have tons in common... We both have 100% chondro-free cows.....Show us pictures of your current adult cows... I'm sure they are lovely even though they are all non-chondro.... But aren't you afraid some folks on this board will say they aren't "real" dexters because they are all chondro-free? Some here have said it's the chondro dwarf gene that makes dexters, "Dexters" (but I disagree with that). If that was true, then you couldn't even claim to have any dexter cows at all.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 28, 2015 11:22:08 GMT
I gather you're ignoring my questions posed above Kirk? You almost always respond when you can cut and past one of your formulaic statements about chondro in them that you think makes your case. Since you haven't chosen the "go away" route by responding to Genebo, I'll just assume you have no response that would paint the example I gave in a favorable light for yourself. That's all I needed to know. I don't care how friendly and folksy you try to act here, we all know that you can be extremely denigrating to our beloved dwarf Dexters. I will always push back. Gene, please consider your little chondro heifer having a permanent place on our farm with the rest of our dwarf cows! I have semen from West Wind Thomas and Shaun Lord's Ferdinand, both of whom carry red and are very well conformed bulls, that we would love to AI her with. As you know, my ultimate goal is a nice little group of dwarf traditional cows, just like the Grinstead herd, with a little red and dun sprinkled in  P.S. You left out a fourth choice, the one we chose. A herd of dwarf cows with a long leg bull, and a herd of long leg cows with a dwarf bull. When the heifers reach the age where they can be bred, they simply move over to the opposite herd, or in the case of the non-carriers, which we really want to minimize, our customer gets to choose the very best Dexter of that type that we have produced year after year, because we are not really interested in keeping her as a replacement. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 28, 2015 12:53:40 GMT
Rather than posting photos of cows owned by somebody else like the worst offenders here do, I will post one here of ours. I'm not afraid... Unlike the ones that are posted here by Kirk, this cow actually is on U.S. soil. Here is a very nice dun 14 year old cow with her 7 month old long leg bull calf. Look at her udder and overall build. 100% traditional pedigree. Does this cow fit into the Kirk defined "true short" classification? Would you use a Dexter such as this in your "true short" program Kirk? Please don't use the fact that she's not red and not polled (but de-horned) to influence your decision.  |
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Post by cascade on Feb 28, 2015 17:23:58 GMT
I like that above cow's phenotype very much. She's a real beauty. I think you have a good eye for cattle.
I would like her productivity in a hybrid terminal beef operation, IF that productivity could be stabilized in every calf. If you had 40 cows like that that could have 40 calves like that EVERY year in a TERMINAL beef operation .... that would be terrific. All 40 calves would need to be beefed out. It's like the hybrid black baldies... great calves for a hybrid F1 terminal beef operation (but they don't breed true). Although, I would like to see her calf have a little shorter legs ... shorter legs can be more efficient and can help that boy put on fat easier and more efficiently on an all-grass-fed operation after he's weaned.
But, I would hate that beautiful cow for a purebred seed-stock herd because she doesn't appear to breed true (assuming she's chondro?) In a purebred herd, that would be very disappointing to get a calf that isn't just like that terrific mom. It's like those beautiful hybrid tomatoes (good for production, but they won't breed true). I would hope that a cow like her would give me 8 daughters and 8 sons that look a lot like her (or bull versions of her) I'd want 16 calves out of her in an 18 year life.
I'd love to see you create a stabilized herd of cows that look like her, that have fast growing, fast maturing, beefy calves, that have even better AVERAGE efficiency than the uneven efficiency you might get from her mish-mash of uneven calves (assuming she's chondro).
Have you thought of working on a LakePortFarms true-breeding line of compact, efficient dexter cattle that would have a lasting influence on Dexters for decades to come? You certainly have the resources and talent to do it. It's a shame to waste that talent on a terminal beef operation.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 28, 2015 18:24:53 GMT
She is not a chondro carrier, though her mother is a carrier.
From your response, she would meet your definition of "true short" based on the photograph, and I should breed more just like her?
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Post by cascade on Feb 28, 2015 22:03:20 GMT
The word "True" means "true-breeding" which is a genetics term. To me, short just means that the animal meets the breed description for the dexter breed that's supposed to be short. Chondro-Dwarfs can NEVER be true-breeding because of the lethal gene that kills homozygous calves. Most every other feature in Dexters CAN be made to be true-breeding via a stabilization process which requires a good degree of homozygosity. I'd say that cow in the photo above is a "true-short" ONLY if she meets the Dexter breed description of no more than 42" at 3 years of age and she was true-breeding. I'd call her true-breeding if her calves looked like her, when bred on a similar true-breeding bull. Based on the calf in the photo, I'd say the mom is NOT very true-breeding because he doesn't look a lot like the mom (but I'd have to know more about the sire of the calf). Again, I'd love to see you work on a true-breeding line of cattle that meets the Dexter breed description (and meets registration requirements of course)... I think you'd have a lasting good effect on the Dexter breed and I'd be your biggest fan. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_breeding_organism |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 1:12:52 GMT
Kirk i am surprised a self proclaimed chondro expert such as yourself would think that cow was chondro. I see no apperence of that when I look at her.
Now I will take my chance at looking like a fool. I say that cow has significant woodmagic in her. I am talking old woodmadgic not hedgehog 3. Perhaps cranworth lines maybe fairy hill peter.
Well Hans who is she did I get that close?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 1, 2015 1:31:11 GMT
Mike, you are pretty good. Actually Luc is one of the taller cows on our farm. I'm not sure of her age 3 measurement because she was 7 when we purchased her, but she's 44" now. She's certainly much taller than our chondro carriers. She just calved another bull calf early this January, and we have her in with our traditional dwarf bull Shadwell. I'd love to get a short stocky little chondro heifer out of them. Her bull calves King, Prince, and this year's boy Duke have a lot in common with their mother. dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=13845&HorseName=fisher%20creek%20farm%20luc&Page=1&Sort=0 |
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Post by cascade on Mar 1, 2015 4:06:01 GMT
I'm NOT a chondrodysplasia expert other than understanding the genetic mechanism, and being expert at avoiding it altogether.... I thought your cow might be chondro because her 7 month old calf has such long legs (already longer than his fully mature mother). You can't always tell chondro vs. non-chondro just by looking or else we wouldn't need a DNA test.
I hope you get a short stocky little true-short non-chondro out of her, so you can start a real consistent compact strain/line of true-breeding compact dexters that can proudly carry your farm name for the next century. Anybody can slap a chondro gene on an animal and call it a day (you could just slap the chondro gene on some Angus or such).... but I think a breeder with your good eye and skill and relative youth could create the next really famous true-breeding true-short line of consistent compact dexters in America.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 16:12:20 GMT
I thought I might have been reaching with the Fairy Hill Peter part but hey if I had been right on that to that would have been something. Unlike some who put no value in the pedigree. I do value it and I look at pictures compared to pedigrees. there are features You see over and over again in related animals. I realize these old wood magic lines had a distinctive look apart from other dexters but. that old look is becoming a rarity and i think will be lost soon.
I dont think she is to tall.
Kirk, most of us dont care about Fame but i now see that maybe your driving force. If I were to ever have any degree of fame i would hope it was for our work in preserving what was and not for trying to turn it into something else.
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Post by cascade on Mar 2, 2015 0:02:26 GMT
I said it would be great to create a true-breeding line of dexter cattle with all the the traits that YOU think are important. By doing that, you would be SAVING all the traits that YOU want to save. It will be your excellent, prepotent, true-breeding line of cattle that will enjoy the fame, not you personally (you'll be dead from old age by the time your herd is famous). Your famous herd will be famous for having certain great traits that are important to you and because of their fame, folks will want to base their herds on your stock and that will help preserve those traits that are important to you, even after you are gone. Perhaps even your children and grandchildren will preserve your line of Dexters.
But, by just randomly breeding this and that and the other without regard to stabilizing a phenotype, then you save nothing and you accomplish nothing and your animals are just a short lived collection of this and that and the other.... and they will just evaporate in the wind.
What lasting features would you want YOUR line of Dexters to have? What do you want YOUR line/strain of Dexters to be famous for?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 2, 2015 0:24:37 GMT
Interesting isn't it that of all the Dexters over the years, the herd that was noteworthy enough to warrant a movie film that survives all these years later for us to look at today during this time was a beautiful herd of dwarf horned Dexter cattle. The Grinstead herd, the subject of this thread. They did their own version of selection, all of the long legged ones were eaten, some may have been sold off. All people need to eat, and also have income to help pay the hay bill.
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Post by cascade on Mar 3, 2015 1:21:23 GMT
Interesting isn't it that of all the Dexters over the years, the herd that was noteworthy enough to warrant a movie film that survives all these years later for us to look at today during this time was a beautiful herd of dwarf horned Dexter cattle. The Grinstead herd, the subject of this thread. They did their own version of selection, all of the long legged ones were eaten, some may have been sold off. All people need to eat, and also have income to help pay the hay bill. If the Grinstead herd truly sold off ALL their dexters with too long legs, they would eventually be left with a mix of true-shorts and chondro-dwarfs. They would no longer have any with too-long legs born on their farm after a few generations. I have no problem with that. But if they kept some with too-long legs and continually covered up those too-long of legs with the dwarf gene, then that's where I have a problem... Using the dwarf gene to "correct" too-long legs is actually sorta dishonest because the dwarf gene does NOTHING to fix the too-long leg problem, it just hides it. |
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