Grinstead again

[jamshundred]

I needed to reference an ancestor in the UK herd book XXIV today which has births recorded in 1923 and my mind was wandering to conversations on the forum regarding dwarf cattle, bulldogs, and then to the Grinstead herd video I think we have all watched. What a lovely herd of dwarf cattle! That led me to more thoughts of the Grinstead herd of dwarf cattle and I turned to the herd listings for the year which has the birth records. So here is the very interesting information!



There were 36 cows reported to have calved in 1923 from January through November. There were 15 bull calves, 19 heifer calves, 1 calf reported as a deformed bull and another calf reported as deformed without a sex. Let's assume those two "deformed" calves were bulldogs. That would be a percentage of loss equaling 5.5%, about the usual percentage of loss quoted for many years by government authorities for cattle herds. ( I believe it is several percent higher now).
 Certainly not the 25% the stats quote. . . .and more in line ( actually higher) than my own experience over the years.


All the calves were black, with the exception of one red bull calf named Grinstead Rufus. His sire was Brokenhurst Penny! Ding!

Could Penny have been a dun? The dam was Castle Lough Elise a foundation cow so I went in search of her registry record to check her color. She was black. Her sire was black. Her dam was black. The grandparents were black. I ended up looking up the entire pedigree and then headed back to Brokenhurst Penny. Drat! He was black too. Are pennies black in England?



I am going to find that early dun ! ! Just need to find two red animals with a black calf, right?

Judy

[Deleted]

I dont think it was very common to keep and use a red/dun bull back then. So it was probably carried on as a recessive  for a long time.

[Blessings Farms]

Judy glad you started Grinstead again but as Lonecowhand said
the original got out of control. May I sugest an area to record
these things for viewing and control but not censorship.
The percentage of stillborn is extremely low even by todays
standards. I always have believed that the beginning of
Dexters could not have been as bad as the 25% often quoted.
It just does not reason that these people would have accepted
that for even finical reasons to survive. It would be interesting
to see more averages for several years.
P. S. KIRK don't even start this is not bias but history facts.

[cascade]

Feb 18, 2015 23:07:04 GMT jamshundred said:

I am going to find that early dun ! ! Just need to find two red animals with a black calf, right?

Judy

Two reddish-looking animals with a black calf would nearly certainly (but not absolutely) mean that one or both of the "red" looking parents are actually dun.

But there is one special case where two actual RED animals E+e or E+E+  could have a black calf... but it would be very rare.

There is a type of black called "Agouti Black"...
 
An E+ red animal has the ability to make both red and black pigment.
The Agouti Locus (not well studied in cattle) has a good number of allele types that can do some interesting things with the red and black pigment.
One particularly rare Agouti Locus allele can instruct an E+E+ animal to produce mostly black pigment.  

So it's possible (but rare) to have an entirely black calf that's E+E+ , from two tested red parents, both without dun. 

[cascade]

It's a PROVEN genetic fact that if you breed chondro X chondro, then 25% of embryo/fetuses/calves will die on average.  There's no disputing that...

But LOTS of short dexters back then and today were NON-CHONDRO true shorts.  Since dexters were selected simply because of being short in stature, it would be stupid to believe that they were all Chondro-dwarfs... there were, and are, lots of short dexters without the Chondro-gene.

In fact, if they only had 5% calving problems, then it's likely that only 1/5th of their cows were chondro-dwarfs and the rest were non-chondros.

Let's say that someone had a herd where they sold all their taller-looking calves and kept all their shorter-looking calves.  You can bet that there would be bunches of true shorts mixed in with the chondro-dwarfs.

Until about 2002 when testing became available, folks who selected their herds for short legs, we're NOT selecting for chondro.... They were simply selecting for short-looking cattle and didn't know which ones were true-short and which ones were chondro-dwarfs with the lethal gene.  Since chondro-dwarfs often get early arthritis and live shorter lives, you can bet that Chondro's were culled earlier than non-chondros.   You can also bet that any true-short cow that gave birth to excellent short calves year after year after year would have been favored for that record, also, the occasional true-short non-chondro bull would have been favored for having 100% live calves and short legs.  This would have increased the numbers of true shorts in herds (and decreased the number of chondro's and decreased the dead calves).


PS.  Dexters are NOT defined by the lethal chondro gene, instead, they are defined by being short in stature.

[lakeportfarms]

This thread has nothing to do with chondro or size, yet you continue to troll with your made up assumptions and false statements. I have 8 chondro carrier Dexters that are older than your oldest cow. One of them 16 years old, nearly double the age of your next oldest cow. Your comments on short lifespans of them are laughable. You have no idea or more importantly experience with what you profess to be an expert on.

Get a life.

[cascade]

Feb 22, 2015 4:15:39 GMT lakeportfarms said:

This thread has nothing to do with chondro or size

Your comments on short lifespans of them are laughable.  

The very first sentence of this thread up top indeed tells us this thread is all about chondro, and size and bulldog calves.   Go reread it for yourself. It's actually a very interesting thread.  We're discussing the fact that the Grinstead herd likely had mostly non-chondro cows.

In other postings elsewhere, YOU yourself told us that chondro-dwarfs can indeed get joint problems more readily when you said this:

"the challenges of the chondro carrier in keeping up with the non-carriers puts a lot of involuntary stress on the joints."

"All it takes is a little bit of common sense to realize that carrying excessive weight puts unnecessary strain on joints that can lead to inflammation, damage, and subsequently to arthritis. I've had chondro positive cows here that when we acquired them were extremely fat and struggled to get around"     "The non-carriers looked fine, but the carriers suffered as a result."


Here's what one of the premier experts, Beryl Rutherford said about it:

by Woodmagic » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:04 am
There are still many breeders in this country who prefer to breed to the short leg, usually using a long leg bull on their short leg herd, and selling any resulting long leg heifers. In my own experience the short leg carrier stands a big risk of becoming arthritic between the ages of eight or nine, and most short leg herds will have one or two in this condition. It can occasionally develop much earlier, but it was definitely one of the reasons I decided I must try to produce a short leg animal without the achondrodysplasia. Since I have eliminated it, I can honestly say I have only seen arthritis develop at much greater age, I have had a cow of 21 who developed a limp in her last two years, and one of nineteen at the moment, but I think at that age it is a reasonable impairment. The achondrodsyplasia is a fault in the bone development, and it is not surprising that it can increase the onset of early arthritis. I see no sense in having to cull an animal half way through its life, as I used to do in my early days.


The point is that the Grinstead herd likely had more NON-Chondro cows than Chondro-Dwarf-cows.

Dexters are a short breed, with a minority of cows suffering from chondrodysplasia dwarfism, while most don't have it.

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

It's actually a very interesting thread. We're discussing the fact that the Grinstead herd likely had mostly non-chondro cows.

Kirk, I think the problem in all the back and forths is this:   Almost all of us who raise and breed dwarf carriers have experience with both the dwarf carriers and the non-dwarf progeny and wih non carriers off non carrier stock.  WE know the difference and have experience and knowledge, whereas  you seemingly do not based on comments over the years relating to the dwarf animals.   I can tell you right now my hands on experience of dwarf Dexters show by far that is what is depicted in the Grinstead video and the bull is a dwarf carrier as well.

Kirk, there ARE qualities to the dwarf cattle that have merit and value.  Read that again.   You are forgetting that breeders in Ireland, and breeders in England had choices.  They could choose the non-carrier version of Dexters ( Kerry) or they could choose the dwarf cattle ( Dexters).  All during the late part of the 1800s and into the 1900s Kerry were widely discussed as being a wonderful cow for dairy.  You can find those opinions in US publications as well.  Yet Dexters were bred and used in many dairies in England.  Why didn't they forego the Dexter and just use the Kerry?  Why did the Kerry become just a tail-hair shy of extinction?   Kirk, it is because ther dwarf cattle have characteristics you cannot find in Kerry cattle, and at lease one of the traits is lost to non-carriers, ( the ability to maintain condition on poor forage as well as when nursing older calves) although I believe there are two. . . . and the second one is a slight bit of difference in trust and personality in the non dwarf animals based on my years of breeding these lines.    The negatives are the "chance" of loss if two carriers are bred together ( ony 25% at that) no risk at all breeding carrier to non-carrier,  and frankly the loss of characteristics in the non carriers and the arthritis.  The arthritis rarely appears in the "proportionate" bodied dwarf cattle.  It is usually found in the cattle with the more expressed dwarf characteristics and my experience say that percentage is low as well.

I know how radical and aggressive your opinion is with Dexters but I am curious if it extends to others.  Should dwarf humans be aborted?  Should Down syndrome or other birth defect affected fetuses be aborted and should their parents never be permitted to conceive again?   Should overo horses all be slaughtered?  How about albinos where the circumstances of breeding two together ( as in Donkeys) leads to 100% chance of mortality?  Should humans we now know carry lethal genes for cancer be eliminated before birth?    Do any of these "birth defect" humans or species have no value to civilization in your estimation?

Kirk, you simply have to take my word for it, because *I* know, . .  .     there are qualities of the dwarf Dexter that have kept them from extinction.  When we do away with those animals and the value they offer us. . . . . . . you end up with Kerry cattle.   Who wants Kerry cattle?   Seemingly only a handful of people worldwide.    Why is this so difficult for me to relate to you?

Judy 

[lakeportfarms]

Feb 22, 2015 17:35:15 GMT cascade said:

Feb 22, 2015 4:15:39 GMT lakeportfarms said:

This thread has nothing to do with chondro or size

Your comments on short lifespans of them are laughable.  

The very first sentence of this thread up top indeed tells us this thread is all about chondro, and size and bulldog calves.   Go reread it for yourself. It's actually a very interesting thread.  We're discussing the fact that the Grinstead herd likely had mostly non-chondro cows.

In other postings elsewhere, YOU yourself told us that chondro-dwarfs can indeed get joint problems more readily when you said this:

"the challenges of the chondro carrier in keeping up with the non-carriers puts a lot of involuntary stress on the joints."

"All it takes is a little bit of common sense to realize that carrying excessive weight puts unnecessary strain on joints that can lead to inflammation, damage, and subsequently to arthritis. I've had chondro positive cows here that when we acquired them were extremely fat and struggled to get around"     "The non-carriers looked fine, but the carriers suffered as a result."


Here's what one of the premier experts, Beryl Rutherford said about it:

by Woodmagic » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:04 am
There are still many breeders in this country who prefer to breed to the short leg, usually using a long leg bull on their short leg herd, and selling any resulting long leg heifers. In my own experience the short leg carrier stands a big risk of becoming arthritic between the ages of eight or nine, and most short leg herds will have one or two in this condition. It can occasionally develop much earlier, but it was definitely one of the reasons I decided I must try to produce a short leg animal without the achondrodysplasia. Since I have eliminated it, I can honestly say I have only seen arthritis develop at much greater age, I have had a cow of 21 who developed a limp in her last two years, and one of nineteen at the moment, but I think at that age it is a reasonable impairment. The achondrodsyplasia is a fault in the bone development, and it is not surprising that it can increase the onset of early arthritis. I see no sense in having to cull an animal half way through its life, as I used to do in my early days.


The point is that the Grinstead herd likely had more NON-Chondro cows than Chondro-Dwarf-cows.

Dexters are a short breed, with a minority of cows suffering from chondrodysplasia dwarfism, while most don't have it.

Kirk, you cut and parse my statements about chondro dwarf Dexters without the context.  Here was the context...the dwarf Dexter maintains their condition more easily than that of a non-dwarf.  That is a FACT, verified not only by myself but by myriads of other dwarf Dexter owners out there.  When you have a herd of mixed carriers and non-carriers, an owner will typically feed to the non-dwarf, or least efficient Dexter.  If you took my herd of dwarf Dexters, and put in ONE of your Dexters and fed to the requirements of my dwarf Dexters, yours would slowly but surely lose condition and become weak and sickly while mine would thrive and maintain perfect condition.  I guarantee it.  If you put one of my dwarf Dexters in your herd, and fed to the level your herd requires, my dwarf Dexter would become excessively obese and would likely suffer the ailments that come with excessive weight.  THAT was the context of the words you misrepresented above.  It is the chronic OBESITY that is the primary cause of early onset of arthritis and the ability to get around.

Since we run our dwarf Dexters in their own specific herd, we do not have the obesity issues that the dwarf Dexter is more prone to developing. I can compare significant and equivalent numbers of dwarf Cows to their non-dwarf counterparts, and there is a noticeable difference in the inputs required to maintain their body condition.

Our low temperature tonight is going to -15F, with -30F and lower windchills.  Our high temperature tomorrow is forecasted to be 8 degrees Farenheit.  A quick glance at the weather in your neck of the woods shows sunny skies and a balmy 56 degrees Fahrenheit (a temperature we haven't seen since early October, in fact that was above our high temperature on the 4th of July last year).  It is a know fact that cattle consume significantly more feed in colder temperatures.  I can assure you, when you're feeding $70 4x5 round bales, 6 months of the year, you notice which of your Dexter cows are most efficient with their feed, and adjust your herd type accordingly when you have the numbers that we have.

[cascade]

Feb 22, 2015 18:33:16 GMT jamshundred said:

Kirk,

It's actually a very interesting thread. We're discussing the fact that the Grinstead herd likely had mostly non-chondro cows.

Kirk, I think the problem in all the back and forths is this:   Almost all of us who raise and breed dwarf carriers have experience with both the dwarf carriers and the non-dwarf progeny and wih non carriers off non carrier stock.  WE know the difference and have experience and knowledge, whereas  you seemingly do not based on comments over the years relating to the dwarf animals.   I can tell you right now my hands on experience of dwarf Dexters show by far that is what is depicted in the Grinstead video and the bull is a dwarf carrier as well.

Kirk, there ARE qualities to the dwarf cattle that have merit and value.  Read that again.   You are forgetting that breeders in Ireland, and breeders in England had choices.  They could choose the non-carrier version of Dexters ( Kerry) or they could choose the dwarf cattle ( Dexters).  All during the late part of the 1800s and into the 1900s Kerry were widely discussed as being a wonderful cow for dairy.  You can find those opinions in US publications as well.  Yet Dexters were bred and used in many dairies in England.  Why didn't they forego the Dexter and just use the Kerry?  Why did the Kerry become just a tail-hair shy of extinction?   Kirk, it is because ther dwarf cattle have characteristics you cannot find in Kerry cattle, and at lease one of the traits is lost to non-carriers, ( the ability to maintain condition on poor forage as well as when nursing older calves) although I believe there are two. . . . and the second one is a slight bit of difference in trust and personality in the non dwarf animals based on my years of breeding these lines.    The negatives are the "chance" of loss if two carriers are bred together ( ony 25% at that) no risk at all breeding carrier to non-carrier,  and frankly the loss of characteristics in the non carriers and the arthritis.  The arthritis rarely appears in the "proportionate" bodied dwarf cattle.  It is usually found in the cattle with the more expressed dwarf characteristics and my experience say that percentage is low as well.

I know how radical and aggressive your opinion is with Dexters but I am curious if it extends to others.  Should dwarf humans be aborted?  Should Down syndrome or other birth defect affected fetuses be aborted and should their parents never be permitted to conceive again?   Should overo horses all be slaughtered?  How about albinos where the circumstances of breeding two together ( as in Donkeys) leads to 100% chance of mortality?  Should humans we now know carry lethal genes for cancer be eliminated before birth?    Do any of these "birth defect" humans or species have no value to civilization in your estimation?

Kirk, you simply have to take my word for it, because *I* know, . .  .     there are qualities of the dwarf Dexter that have kept them from extinction.  When we do away with those animals and the value they offer us. . . . . . . you end up with Kerry cattle.   Who wants Kerry cattle?   Seemingly only a handful of people worldwide.    Why is this so difficult for me to relate to you?

Judy 

1.  Efficiency and easy-keeping is a trait of shorter cattle... You don't need the lethal chondro gene to have efficient shorter cattle.

www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/cows-without-legs-part-1-zbcz1412.aspx

2. In our area, we get 6 months of freezing rain in winter that sometimes doesn't stop for months on end and the cows are soaked with cold water and wet mud day after day after day with no shelter.  They would prefer the temperature to be MUCH colder to change the freezing rain to snow.  Snow has insulating power.  They don't mind cold and snow but they HATE the freezing rain and mud.  The cold rain hurts the insulating quality of their coats and makes them miserable.  Our shorter, thicker (non-chondro) cows handle our miserable wet winters very well. 
 
3.  Shortness (not the chondro gene) helped save dexters from extinction because a good number of people want shorter cattle that are friendly. You don't need the chondro gene to have short, friendly cattle.  I was attracted to dexters because of their shortness and thriftiness and friendliness WITHOUT genetic diseases

4.  Other than the ability to have giant calves that are much bigger than the short parent, I haven't seen anyone list a single positive feature of chondro-shorts that can't ever be found in true-shorts.    You can have an entire herd of true-shorts with the features you love, instead of only have 50% with the chondro-lethal gene.

5.  I believe that parent stock, should NOT purposefully pass known serious genetic diseases to future generations.  It's selfish to purposefully inflict that on future generations.  

6. If you take the chondro gene out of dexters and you breed for shortness and friendliness you don't end up with Kerry's.   You end up with with an entire herd of short, friendly dexters with ALL the traits you like, but without lethal genes.


Here's a true-short dexter without chondro (she's dun and genetically horned)  she doesn't look like a kerry.



Here's a link to a Kerry (sorry for big photo, it's not mine to alter):




Here's another true-short dexter without chondro (very different from the Kerry)




Remember, I'm on your side...  I agree with promoting short, friendly, efficient dexters  (and you don't need a lethal gene for that).



   

[jamshundred]

kirk,

If there was merit to your posting those pictures repeatedly. . . that would be different. I am removing the duplicates and resizing the Kerry photo. If I can.

Do you see how big that Kerry bull is? Maybe that is why they are now nearly extinct. Big without commercial viability and too big for pet quality I suppose. I got something for you on a couple of early cows you are just gonna love! Back in a minute.

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

I know you do this to push buttons.  But. . .. .  My new data period began on the 17th.  By Friday evening I had used up 25% of my allotment.  This is unheard of!   So I took almost two days off.  I am terrified to see what I used today.   It costs me $15.00 a gig when I go over.  My bank balance is leaving and it cannot afford to take me with it on the trip!

If there was merit to your posting those pictures repeatedly versus your just trying to annoy some. . .  .I'd tighten the belt, eat more beans, and buy more data.  Well, I don't have a choice in the data. . . I have to work online too.  Could you find another way to push our buttons?  I will even try to come up with some for you since I know all the buttons.  Laughing.  OK?

Judy

[lakeportfarms]

Kirk, what is the name of the dun cow you post? Is she available for sale? How about some of her progeny? It would be a great foundation to a "true short" herd. You must have something available out of her, or are you keeping them for yourself? How about some of your other cows that are like her?

You are so dedicated about being able to breed for your "true short" cattle, and that we should all be doing it ourselves instead of the dwarf Dexters that we raise. You've been doing it so well for so long, you must have a number of examples of cows that you could post photos of here that we can see what we should be doing instead. Please post their registered names, age the photo was taken, and heights so that we can evaluate their pedigrees and search out similar lines to incorporate into our herds.

I'm sure Judy would make some exceptions for the photos that you've not posted before, that would show how successful you are with which you are always telling us is possible. You are so confident of this that it must be true, so sorry if we've doubted you for so long.

[cascade]

Judy, Here's some info on switching google-chrome to text-only browsing mode. Maybe it will help you.

geeks.im/add-a-text-only-browsing-mode-to-chrome/

[jamshundred]

Thanks Kirk. Mike sent me some info for foxfire as well. I am no geek. I despise electronics and mechanical things too. My brain resists anything necessary to be functiona with either. Would that be left brain or right brain I am missing?   

Kirk could you find out the current size on Benny for us since you use him so frequently as an example of small.  I heard he is not quite as small as that picture would suggest.  It is a shame he did not get fully parentage verified especially since the owner agreed to type the dam if I paid for it. ADCA got the money.  The tail hairs never arrived.  

Judy

[Deleted]

Kirk,
I tested that add in and found it does not do as it claims. It downloads everything just doesn't show the pictures. I did find a good one that does truly prevent images from ever downloading in firefox It is called image block.

[cascade]

I think the short little beefy non-chondro bull "Benjamin" pictured above, was around 41" at 3 years... I'll try to get more info. But his particular height isn't so important as the fact that one can breed for short little thick dexters without the lethal chondro gene.

I think someone could eventually breed a bull like as short as perhaps 38" - 39" (at three years), without encountering much difficulty. 38" at three years is the bottom of the US Dexter description for bulls. Shorter than that, you might encounter some health issues or proportional issues and you'd be lower than the breed description.

Woodmagic didn't invent shorter non-chondro dexters. ANYONE who selected dexters based on shorter height (getting rid of any taller dexters), would automatically breed some short non-chondro dexters, mixed in with chondros.

Here is an interesting experiment in breeding shorter dexters:

Select a starter herd of 30 dexters with a wide mix of genetics... some chondro, some non-chondro with some short ones and some taller ones.

While selecting for quality conformation and excellent behavior, remove any taller animals from the herd as soon as is prudent.

For this experiment, eventually remove ALL cows over 40" at 3 years and all remove all bulls over 42" at three years.

For this experiment, remove all cows and bulls that are UNDER the breed description minimum height at 3 years (36" cows, 38" bulls)

Any cow that has that has a calving problem including a dead calf or miscarriage should get a demerit, and if it happens a second time, she should be removed from the herd.

Any bull that causes more than 5% calving issues including miscarriages, should be removed from the herd.

Any cow or bull that consistently throws more than 30% calves larger or smaller than the maximum-minimum for this experiment should be removed from the herd as soon as prudent.

Remove any female that cannot easily get pregnant at 13-15 months to have a healthy calf by age 2.

Remove any animals that limp for more than a 2 week period.


I'll bet that if you did this for 2 decades, you'd end up with perhaps 15% chondros in your herd and 85% true shorts.

My point is that folks who bred for an entire herd of quality shorter problem-free dexters (without fully understanding chondro and without doing any testing) would automatically select for mostly non-condro true-shorts and would mostly select away from Chondro.

I'll bet that the majority of animals in the Grinstead Herd were NON-CHONDRO

[Deleted]

last I seen you called the grinstead herd a fraud because they were chondro. now you say
"I'll bet that the majority of animals in the Grinstead Herd were NON-CHONDRO"

you should have been a politician with flip flopping like that.

You are the only one here obsessed with height. We are not trying to get smaller and smaller dexters. I am happy with the size mine are. When you get your mini dexters. What are you going to do once you have flooded the pet market with them.

[cascade]

1. I said that the video showing Grinstead's shorter cattle, was NOT a picture of their total herd.  The video highlighted the shorter chondro's.  It would be nice to see a picture of their entire herd and see close-up pictures of their non-chondros. 

2. I agree that we don't want Dexters to be shorter than the breed description. In fact, anyone with a bull under the breed description minimum of 38" at 3 years, should consider that he's too small.

3. Anyone breeding dexters should be concerned with working toward having them fit the breed description in the long-haul.  What's the point of a breed description if we ignore it?

4. I'm NOT breeding for mini-dexters. I'm selecting for dexters that fit the breed description... In fact  I personally prefer fast-growing FRIENDLY beefy 42" - 44" bulls (at 3 years) that's the upper end of the breed description of 38" TO 44" at three years.  


Here are couple of Grinstead animals that certainly look much taller than the ones highlighted in the Grinstead video... notice how long the bull's legs are.  Notice how tall the cow is compared to the full-grown man.  

[jamshundred]

Those animals ar not that tall. I am glad you like them though . . . They are both chondro.  That is a young bull. The cow is mature and even though a dwarf she has the second and more prevalent "proportionate" phenotype.   Do you realize how phenomenal these dwarf cattle were for meat and milk production?  Then modern men came along and they have all but destroyed the amazing look and production. Crying shame

otto Jensen had a very productive dairy full of 33" cows.   38" is way to big for an average dwarf bull at the age you quote

I do not believe the size you told me.   Show me a photo of his parents. Such a supposedly note worthy cow should have all sorts of photos.  Where are they?

Judy

[nicosteintjesholland]

Feb 23, 2015 0:01:07 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Kirk, what is the name of the dun cow you post? Is she available for sale? How about some of her progeny? It would be a great foundation to a "true short" herd. You must have something available out of her, or are you keeping them for yourself? How about some of your other cows that are like her?

You are so dedicated about being able to breed for your "true short" cattle, and that we should all be doing it ourselves instead of the dwarf Dexters that we raise. You've been doing it so well for so long, you must have a number of examples of cows that you could post photos of here that we can see what we should be doing instead. Please post their registered names, age the photo was taken, and heights so that we can evaluate their pedigrees and search out similar lines to incorporate into our herds.

I'm sure Judy would make some exceptions for the photos that you've not posted before, that would show how successful you are with which you are always telling us is possible. You are so confident of this that it must be true, so sorry if we've doubted you for so long.

Believe me these kind of Dexters excist. Go to www.dexter-verband-deutschland.de/ these Germans are breeding without the Chrondo since the bulldog-test is available!
I have purchased a cow from Schofield in UK. she is breeding without the bulldog for decades. Her cows are as small as your dwarfs!
Call a DCS breeder (at random) and everyone will tell you the same thing. THEY EXCIST.

If you like dwarfs more than non-shorts non-talls or "true shorts" like cascade calls them, I can understand. But why is everyone here so focused on prove - homebred - and examples of single cows/bulls? Why don't you read each others stories and try to believe and understand.

[lakeportfarms]

Nico, I looked at the link, and even the shortest of the Dexters on that page do not resemble the dwarf Dexters that we breed here at our farm. Their non-dwarfs are roughly compatible to many of our non-dwarf Dexters.  Our dwarf Dexters however have much more substantial and robust bodies than the smallest non-dwarfs that they have.

And it's not just the test, from what I can see (my German is passable), they have decided for some time to deny registration of bulls since 2004, and dams born since 2010 so there will eventually no longer be registered Dexters in Germany with the chondrodysplasia gene. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Over and over again it seems that the ability of the dwarf Dexter cow to outproduce herself is completely lost on people. You can have a short cow, that can actually produce something other than just another small cow. The chondro gene is like the goose that lays golden eggs with the large steer. However, the chondro gene lays regular fertile eggs part of the time too. If she didn't, eventually your goose would reach old age and there would be no more golden eggs. Well, until the government or associations get involved anyway. If I lived in Germany, I would be starting a registry that allows chondro dwarf Dexters with full status as the non-chondro Dexters.

[nicosteintjesholland]

Feb 26, 2015 0:42:54 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Nico, I looked at the link, and even the shortest of the Dexters on that page do not resemble the dwarf Dexters that we breed here at our farm. Their non-dwarfs are roughly compatible to many of our non-dwarf Dexters.  Our dwarf Dexters however have much more substantial and robust bodies than the smallest non-dwarfs that they have.

And it's not just the test, from what I can see (my German is passable), they have decided for some time to deny registration of bulls since 2004, and dams born since 2010 so there will eventually no longer be registered Dexters in Germany with the chondrodysplasia gene. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Over and over again it seems that the ability of the dwarf Dexter cow to outproduce herself is completely lost on people. You can have a short cow, that can actually produce something other than just another small cow. The chondro gene is like the goose that lays golden eggs with the large steer. However, the chondro gene lays regular fertile eggs part of the time too. If she didn't, eventually your goose would reach old age and there would be no more golden eggs. Well, until the government or associations get involved anyway. If I lived in Germany, I would be starting a registry that allows chondro dwarf Dexters with full status as the non-chondro Dexters.

That last actually happend. There is another society in Germany that allows the bulldog gene. www.dexter-bddz.de they are a part of DCS.

The society without the bulldog gene is winning, BDDZ has just a few old fashion members left. Those who stick to the dwarfs.

I would battle for freedom to choose, dwarf or bulldog-free. I like the dwarfs to see. They only don't fit in my breeding filosofie. I have chozen the way of smaller cows. It may take me decades to devolep them out of the dwarf-crosses, but I know it will succeed. I've seen so many lovely little cows with the same profits as the dwarf without the lethal gene.

I don't want to purse someone in some direction. I'm for freedom, honoursty and believe in chances! I'm just telling what's possible in Dexter breeding because no-one has told me when I started. I had to find it all out by myself. I want to share my experiences with dwarfs and long non-short progeny and non-shorts and their opportunities to produces shorter progeny without the chrondo gene.
Everybody has a choise..... allways

[jamshundred]

Nico,

I am for breeders making choices as well. . . .. but the main focus has to be the preservation of the original bloodlines and genetics.

How can you retain the Dexter breed, founded on dwarf cattle.  .. . if you remove the dwarf cattle?

How can you retain the Dexter breed, founded on dwarf cattle .. . if you also lose genetics carried on those genes?

There are choices being made. . . . without knowledge.   We don't have science yet that tells us if the most valuable traits we admire in Dexter cattle are carrying on the animals that do not have the dwarf genetics.  So far, to a person, those I talk with who have bred both dwarf cattle and non-dwarf cattle a few generations removed from their foundation. . . . . discover they non-dwarves do NOT maximize their forage in the same manner as the dwarf cattle.  *I* am strongly suspecting the immune system in the non-dwarf cattle is different as well.  An old timer once told me that the high tail set most often seen in the dwarf lines facilitated the ease of calving.
And yet. . . many breed away from that for cosmetic reasons alone.

We are changing a small breed of heritage cattle based on human whim and not on scientific knowledge.

The Woodmagic herd had changed so drastically, the scientist who did the research for the Cardiff project very clearly and consistently  states they were, in essence, a new breed.  Why is that?  She concentrated her breeding on only a few animals. . . . . where did the Dexter go?  Did it leave with the dwarf genes?  

Judy

[nicosteintjesholland]

Woodmagic is a different story, you know that as the best. The story about Plover being a red poll doesn't make sence at all. We have talked about that before. Although I believe something went wrong in the early Woodmagics. You can see it in the types. long head round hipbone thinner bones etc. etc. But woodmagic has brought us a lot: better legs and udders. Beryl was an excellent breeder. I've seen many real Woodmagics and many with 100% woodmagic bloodline. You can see the difference in type. She really knew what she was doing.

About the genetics of the dwarf cattle you refer on: Dwarfs can't be bred homozygot. So I can't say what the unique points from the dwarfs are. They carry a lethal gene, that disturbes bone growth. That's the only difference between dwarfs and non-dwarfs.

The contest between dwarfs and non-dwarfs you talk about was probably not between dwarfs and non-dwarfs with the same weights? I presume it were non-dwarfs out of the dwarf x non-dwarf breeding programm.

I know you know a lot about Dexter history. I have no access to all that information, and I've the handicap not reading your language as good as I would. It costs me a lot of energy to translate, interpretate and place everything I read in the timeshedule. And then it is all about inches in stead of cm. lbs in stead of kg, you call a short a dwarf etc etc
I think its good to try to breed back the original Dexter, but why shouldn't we eliminate the bad things, thats what breeding is.
To be onours, do you like to breed a bull like "simply simon" or the "Dexter steer bred and exhibited by the Prince of Wales". I don't place the pictures here, I know you know where I'm talking about.

I prefer the Dexters from Lady Loder (Grinstead) and I'm sure the most are dwarfs. I'm also sure that they don't look like the cows Mr. Dexter devoloped a century before.

There are a lots of things that can happen in 100 years cattle breeding. Look at the frisean cows which went to USA in that time. They came back 100 year later to Holland after breeding and improving total differt ways. The FH cows were bred smaller thicker and didn't produce enough milk. The HF cows were 20 cm taller, produced about 3000 kg milk more and were as thin as milk goats.
Both races devoloped differt ways, but both had better udders and much better legs than the originals in 1900!

You are right, we are breeding for improvement, but we don't know exactly what we doing, with each mating we can make an improvement that we see, and lose something we discover years after.

But what we see is the only thing we have since genomics is not payable and not 100% working.

Why do you think to lose so much of the Dexter benifits by elimating the bulldog gene?? Why should you lose more then with a normal mating. In each mating with heterozygot animals you have 50% to lose!

Nowadays we have to redefine our definition of a race:
For a race you should deliver the gene profile, and all unique genes should be homozygot. Than you can never lose the unique genes in matings. Just thinking......

[cascade]

A true breed must be homozygous for its key traits or it's not a real breed.

Heirloom gardeners select true-breeding heirloom varieties of plants and they avoid hybrids because hybrids won't breed true.

Heritage chicken breeders shun hybrid chickens because hybrid chickens aren't a true breed and they can't breed true.

Chondro Dexters aren't a true-breed... they are heterozygous hybrids. Hybrids have a place in agriculture but they aren't true breeds.

Often, breeds start out as hybrid crosses with a mish-mash of offspring, and then breeders spend generations trying to stabilize the new breed. That's what we're still doing in Dexters... trying to stabilize the breed. The lethal gene interferes with that process because it can't ever be homozygous in a living animal.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_breeding_organism

[lonecowhand]

Hi Nico,
  The folks on this board are, with a few exceptions, like the BDDZ society, those few old fashion members who desire to keep Dexters as they have been, as much as is possible, now that over 80% of the remaining cattle in the Dexter Registrees have recent outcrosses or "upgrades" in their pedigrees.

That doesn't mean they are snobs, it means they desire to see traditional Dexters salvaged and maintained before they become extinct, or changed beyond recognition. They are fiercely protective and defensive of their breed.

There are a few phrases which are perceived as irritating and over-reaching and wrongheaded. One such is the term "Lethal gene" when referring to Chondro or dwarfism in Dexters. One poster on this board knows that and uses it as a tool to antagonize.
While I don't know who coined the phrase, I do know the effect it has on those who value and breed for Dwarfism. The term is used as a scare tactic to scare away new potential Dexter owners. The fact though, is that the gene cannot be lethal, look how long the breed has been in existence!

The potential for problems is easily avoided given advances in genetic testing, and for a century before that, just by simply not breeding two shorties together. It is easily manageable, and those who love shorties would not consider trying to breed "chondro" out.

I know there will be a response by our resident antagonist, but this was for your consideration, not his.

Bill

[cascade]

Feb 27, 2015 17:32:48 GMT lonecowhand said:

the term "Lethal gene" when referring to Chondro or dwarfism in Dexters. 

I don't know who coined the phrase

The fact though, is that the gene cannot be lethal, look how long the breed has been in existence!

The term LETHAL GENE is standard in breeding and in biology
Lethal genes can be passed down because they are only lethal in their homozygous state.
They are the scourge of livestock breeders but some folks in the pet trade, experiment with quirky malformed pets based on lethal genes.
Every shorter breed of cattle used to be plagued by lethal dwarfism genes, but nearly all of them got rid of those troublesome lethal genes

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/glossary=lethalgene0

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_allele

www.thefreedictionary.com/lethal+gene

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lethal%20gene

[lonecowhand]

 And Lo, from under the bridge there came...

[genebo]

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." ~ Upton Sinclair