Post by jamshundred on Feb 20, 2015 14:18:57 GMT
REPOSTED 2-22-2014 To include new additions to the conversation.
Dave MorganDexter Cattle Enthusiasts
February 19 at 9:56pm · Beaver Creek, OR · Edited
I am reposting a comment below, made by Judy Sponaugle on another Dexter discussion board. I will not comment on this, but I think it provides important insights for breeders of polled and Chondro non-carrier Dexters on Ms. Sponaugle's opinion of your breeding choices. A link to the entire thread is included.
Dexter Cattle World: Trying to create a pseudo short legged Dexter (by jamshundred)
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Darn it Kirk you are being redundan...
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Trying to create a pseudo short legged Dexter | Dexter Cattle World
For years, there have been some Dexter owners who have claimed to have developed a substitute for a short legged Dexter by selectively breeding down the size of larger cattle. They called them almost
DEXTERCATTLEWORLD.PROBOARDS.COM
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Elias Kyrt Watson and Deb Kelln like this.
Elias Kyrt Watson Following
February 19 at 11:03pm · Like
Barbara Netti As upsetting as Judys comments are I would suggest that we keep the Dexter Cattle Enthusiasts face book site free from any more arguments. Instead please direct your comments to your director, or president of the ADCA. Another reason for this suggest...See More
February 19 at 11:47pm · Like · 5
Tanya Michelle Totally agree Barbara.
February 19 at 11:52pm · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin I diaagree with Tanya and Barbara. This site should be open to all discussion about the Dxter breed. I'm sure that Judy is as "enthusiast" about Dexters as you are. I'm sure the directors and president of ADCA are well aware olf the situation. All side...See More
February 20 at 12:07am · Like · 6
Tanya Michelle I'm afraid I'm not open for discussion on this matter. I also do not want my words smeared all over the Internet without my knowledge. That's in bad taste.
February 20 at 12:13am · Like · 2
Barbara Netti Michael, this is not about censuring free discussions. All I did was make a suggestion. This has been going on for years now and people are getting tired of it.
February 20 at 12:16am · Like · 4
Michael Foor-Pessin All suggestions should be welcome. That's the point of a free media. If the discussion has been going on "for years," I suggest we entertain the idea that there is true merit to the argument., and we do more to finally resolve the issue. (The women's suffrage movement took over a century of heated debate to finally be resolved! Women refused to have their views silenced.) I have been breeding Dexters for almost 30 years, and the evolution of the beed has been dramatic. When I started with my first heifer calf for my son in 4H, polled Dexters were unheard of. The influx of polled genestics was so rapid that I made the decision to "close" my herd until I could sort out the landscape. My gradfather, one of the true mentors in my life, who raised Herefords, inculcated into me the notion that "when you are done with a breed" you should have done justice to it." This is the essence of the disagreement.
February 20 at 12:35am · Edited · Like · 8
Louise Ball Those who wish to get involved in such discussions can go to that forum and say whatever they wish. There is no reason to drag it onto every other discussion group. Some people prefer to not participate in other forums as they prefer to not have to wade through so much unpleasantness. This is a "mainly" very nice group where people are respectful to each other, personally I would like to leave it that way.
I agree Barbara Netti, also this backbiting is tiresome, I have better things to spend my time on reading.
February 20 at 1:12am · Like · 4
Judy Sponaugle Barb Your leadership just published a rumor based article sanctioning three more outcrossings in the polled bloodlines making a total of SEVEN in most ten line polled pedigrees.
February 20 at 1:14am · Edited · Like · 3
Judy Sponaugle are most breeders aware 85% of all registrations are descendents of one bull with a minimum of 6 outcrossings now in his ten line pedigree. Tanya if you are concerned your words are being spread across the internet I hope you are worried. they are being gathered by FB and given to corporate interests and the government so maybe you should not type if you have concerns about privacy. LOL
February 20 at 1:22am · Edited · Like · 2
Louise Ball The thing that people seem to forget, is that regardless of all the talk and backbiting, I can assure everyone, "The sun will come up tomorrow morning" and for the world, that is the important thing.
In the grand scheme of things in the World,( even though to breeders they are important to us) Dexters really aren't that important. Some people may think that they are, but try telling that to someone who is dying of cancer, is trying to feed their starving children, is trying to escape from Muslim extremists, get my gist?
So, lets just talk nice things about Dexters on here.
February 20 at 1:20am · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin I consider myself a "nice " person who is committed to political causes as well as the future of the Dexter breed. Louise, I get your "gist." Please, just answer this simple question for me: How could a horned breed of cattle suddenly have so may polled animals enter the gene pool without the introduction of the genes from a polled species of cattle?
February 20 at 11:37am · Edited · Like · 4
Louise Ball This kind of discussion really isn't that important here in Australia where I come from, as there are just so many sources of polling that it is irrelevant to us. By our breed Standard here in Australia, a Dexter can be polled or horned, and yes, even though we have had parent verification since the beginning, on our database, there are plenty of polled animals that have come from horned parents. How ? Who knows? but they are on the database for all to see.
February 20 at 1:58am · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin Thanks Louise. I guess my question is directed then to US breeders of polled Dexters. I am currently putting together a new yoke of young Dexter oxen. To be oxen an animal needs horns. What happened? The original Dexter was not dual purpose as everyone touts them to be, but they were tri-purpose. What happened to draft?How can a breed change like this so quickly?
February 20 at 2:06am · Like · 3
Louise Ball Michael Foor-Pessin, I am not for nor against polling. Polling just is. I have a couple of polled cattle, I bought them, and continue breeding not just for their polling but for their breeding and their conformation. Most of my cattle are horned (dehorned). Most dexters in Australia are horned, but there are some breeders who breed exclusively for poll, (and it has taken them a lot of hard work to get where they are with homozygous polled, and I admire them for their hard work) and some like myself who may have a few.
In Australia, polling just is, there is non of these raging debates, breeders just breed for what they like. Have a look at Australian Polled Dexters, there are some very good ones over here.
February 20 at 2:29am · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin Louise, I don't understand "just is." Genetics is science, not "magic." I don't have a problem with polled breeders.I really don't. I admire their dedication and hard work, and I am sure they are producing some wonderful animals, but they are creating a new breed. I can't put an oxen yoke on a polled animal; it's like a car with no breaks. Let's acknowledge what is happening, and let's stop pretending that they are breeding Irish Dexters. They are creating a new breed--great. Yes? Come up with a new breed name.This isn't new. Welcome to human/animal husbandry! Look at all the breeds of dogs, for example.
February 20 at 2:51am · Edited · Like · 4
Margaret Rawlings I cannot understand how breeders anywhere other than Au can carry on about purity of Dexters, there was no DNA testing or Parent Verification until very recently. Polled Dexters have a place in the marketplace I say build a bridge and get over it!!
February 20 at 5:27am · Like · 6
Louise Ball You know Margaret Rawlings, I learnt long ago with my dogs, unless you have proof( parent verify,) a pedigree is only worth the piece of paper it is written on.
Michael Foor-Pessin, what I mean about polling "just is", it is accepted as part of the breed in Australia, and it "just is" a particular trait that that animal has, no big deal, nobody makes a fuss, just like being red or dun, or having a bit of white on the udder.
Anyway, I really didn't want to get drawn in to your bun fight in the US, not my dog fight.
February 20 at 6:13am · Like · 3
Judy Allen Hi Michael, it seems that the original Irish Dexter is long, long gone. I have seen photos of what I suppose are the original, taken at Hawkesbury Agricultural College, in Australia, years ago. These were very milky little, types. As Margaret suggests...See More
February 20 at 6:49am · Like · 2
Midhill Farm There's a handful of people that hate polled animals. I guess they will have to deal with it. Next?
February 20 at 6:52am · Like · 3
Michael Foor-Pessin If you read my post carefully, you will see that I don't hate polled animals. I believe I made that clear. I am NOT trying to pick a fight, just trying to understand the landscape.Honest dialogue is a constructive way to "deal with it."
February 20 at 7:11am · Like · 2
Luella Malone no not everyone hates polled I choose to keep the old blood lines I have friend that has polled and sells beef and iam very thankful for anyone that has the old blood lines so all the wonderful old genetic that people fell ...See More
February 20 at 7:40am · Like · 1
Midhill Farm Michael, that's good you are not one of them. On the other hand, you don't recognise polled animals as Dexters, you want them called something else?
? I'd say you have some sort of an issue. Look, OUR breed society has accepted them for years, YOU are the one with the problem.
February 20 at 7:56am · Like · 2
Doreen Barker There are a lot of questions when it comes to Dexter genetics. Unfortunately, that's the reality of the situation. I wanted Dexters for the many different facets but when the genetics start altering enough that we are taking away certain traits and gen...See More
February 20 at 8:14am · Like · 1
Sheri Palko I wasn't going to comment but feel the necessity to say this... it all goes back to education. Something sorely lacking to the general public about this breed. Even those who take the time to research have trouble finding accurate, straight forwar...See More
February 20 at 8:17am · Edited · Like · 3
Brenda Gill Allegrezza I have not totally followed this in great detail however, I own and operate a retail store online and a brick and mortar store. When you post something on the internet it become public property. In otherwords posting things on facebook, reviews, commen...See More
February 20 at 8:19am · Like
Brenda Gill Allegrezza I don't want to ruffle any feathers or anything I just felt led to clarify.
February 20 at 8:20am · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin I realize that the governing body at the time recognized polled dexters into the ADCA. Healthy organizations need to be flexible if they are to prosper and serve the needs of the members into the future. It is clear from this post and MANY others that...See More
February 20 at 8:53am · Like · 4
Judy Sponaugle Sheri, I have many friends who raise polled. I work with breeders of polled and horned and all are treated with the same respect and given the same service and attention. BUT. . . .the original foundation horned Dexters are in a crisis of numbers i...See More
February 20 at 9:14am · Like · 5
Sheri Palko I think I'm getting old and with that has come a change of priorities about where my energy is spent. I've been on the BOD for at least 5 different breed organizations over the years. We carried a very high personal liability policy just for that r...See More
February 20 at 9:18am · Like · 4
Sheri Palko And I will add... for the record and for those who don't know Judy and I... Judy has been one of the most helpful people I've ever met in the dexter community. Her help and pace in educating has gone above and beyond what most have been willing to do, myself included. I understand where she is coming from. I simply have nothing to genetically contribute.
February 20 at 9:22am · Like · 6
Barbara Netti The gist of Judys post was not only about polled Dexters, she is basically implying that if you Dexters are not dwarfs, than they’re not Dexters “you are making a new breed”. Her comments are quoted below. “What made Dexters, Dexters in the first pla...See More
February 20 at 9:50am · Like · 2
Elias Kyrt Watson I can understand both sides of the coin... #1 I hate the idea of dehorning cattle... No matter how u do it it is a stressful and unpleasant expiriance for both the animal and the ppl involved... So I have always felt about cows/goats/sheep that if u do...See More
February 20 at 10:11am · Like
Judy Sponaugle No I did NOT Netti. That is YOUR spin. People can still retain the dwarf genetics and not risk bulldog calves. They can keep carriers and non carriers and breed them together. There IS however science available that says if you are not careful abo...See More
February 20 at 10:12am · Like · 2
Elias Kyrt Watson To beter clarify my comment some ppl will not own a horned cow so I believe it is better to have the polled genetics than to just dehorn every single member of your herd...
February 20 at 10:13am · Like
Barbara Netti Judy you DID! perhaps you should go and reread what you wrote! I copied and pasted the quote to put on this forum.
February 20 at 10:17am · Like
Judy Sponaugle Sheri, thank you. I think anyone who works with me, no matter what they breed know I respect each and everyone no matter what they raise and I have never told any breeder what to raise or how to raise it. I advocate an informed membership in the bre...See More
February 20 at 10:18am · Like · 4
Hans Peterson Barb, I believe Judy's post was mainly directed at Kirk and others of his ilk. Kirk is an unabashed chondro hater and thinks they should be eradicated and removed from the registry. Though you don't approach it like Kirk, and you say "breed what you ...See More
February 20 at 10:36am · Edited · Like · 5
Barbara Netti Hans, I am just posting what Judy said.
February 20 at 10:30am · Like
Hans Peterson Funny Barb, I didn't see that in Judy's post, I believe these are your words. " The gist of Judys post was not only about polled Dexters, she is basically implying that if you Dexters are not dwarfs, than they’re not Dexters “you are making a new breed”. " So you added your interpretation and input to fit your narrative and cause.
February 20 at 10:33am · Like
Sheri Palko Hans Peterson, you summed up the dilemma very well.
February 20 at 10:37am · Like · 1
Barbara Netti NO Hans I am not, here is a copy of the post. Go to the second paragraph, well apparently paragraphs don't show up. Anyway Making a new breed are HER WORDS.......Darn it Kirk you are being redundant! Yes! Dexters were just organized into a breed i...See More
February 20 at 10:38am · Like
Sheri Palko And... without some constructive acknowledgements from all points of view, this topic will never be resolved. Just agreeing to disagree without being defensive and mud slinging would be a good first step.
February 20 at 10:42am · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Barb, I thought you didn't want to discuss it here. LOL
February 20 at 10:42am · Like · 1
Tanya Michelle We need to stop giving this any energy.
February 20 at 10:43am · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Sometimes it takes making a strong statement to raise awareness. Thanks very much to Dave Morgan for bringing an opportunity for many to learn something new! Knowledge and education are the basis of good decision making. Otherwise the Indians would still own Manhattan, hey!
February 20 at 10:46am · Like · 2
Judy Sponaugle Absolutely Tanya -- - don't let the truth get out!
February 20 at 10:49am · Like
Barbara Netti Please note everyone, as I previously stated. Judy will take facebook threads and put them on her forum. Which she has the right to do. Well she has done it with this thread.
February 20 at 10:49am · Like
Hans Peterson I agree Judy Sponaugle. You read here time to time that Dexter owners wish they would have had some of this information BEFORE they made significant investments in their herd. Many lament that they were given inaccurate information about chondro, pol...See More
February 20 at 10:51am · Edited · Like · 2
Judy Sponaugle By the way Tanya - did you know that FB not only gathers information on your writings and provides them to corporate interests and the government ( although the government is doing it as well) they are also taking your words and building an emotional a...See More
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February 20 at 10:52am · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Midhill Farm I think what Dave brought attention to is what YOU, and a few others think of breeders that don't breed what YOU like, and the venom you spout off about it.
February 20 at 10:52am · Like · 1
Hans Peterson Are you referring to me or Judy Carol?
February 20 at 10:53am · Like · 1
Midhill Farm To Judy.
February 20 at 10:54am · Like
Hans Peterson Ok, because I have a red polled bull too you know. He just happens to be a waist high one.
February 20 at 10:55am · Like · 2
Tanya Michelle The truth according to Judy, is not the truth for me or most other dexter owners. Her actions, her voice, appears to me as a darkness, a desire to separate and be right at all costs. It feels like a desperation bordering on insanity fueled by delusio...See More
February 20 at 11:02am · Like · 2
Midhill Farm I think Tanya summed it up very well. Outta here.
February 20 at 11:07am · Like · 1
Hans Peterson Anybody who breeds dwarf dexters breeds both. We have a registry, one of them being the ADCA. Polled didn't join until long after the chondro and long legged horned Dexters started it to begin with. So you want to join the game late, and then take our ball?
February 20 at 11:11am · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin Wow, Tanya Michelle. Your inappropriate "dark" remarks are not helpful to our discussion and to our association. I won't reply. Enjoy your beautiful day.
February 20 at 11:21am · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Tanya - I've never called you names. I have never cast any aspersions on you personally, or any of the others in this thread who feel like I am open season because I feel so strongly about a breed I adore I want them preserved in their natural state, and I want follks informed so they can make educated choices whatever those choices are.
February 20 at 11:32am · Like · 3
Judy Sponaugle Tanya, the truth I provide is taken from historical documents and records and I also provide the sources. You can believe that truth or you can believe fiction.
February 20 at 11:54am · Like
Luella Malone Now i dont say much but iam gonna Judy Sponaugle has been one of the most helpful people I know on Dexter information she has been attacked called a liar ect from many of you I happen to agree with her and ...See More
February 20 at 12:03pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko Tanya Michelle, regardless of of what it "feels" like to you, Judy is simply trying to preserve genetics. She has never said anything cruel to you that in aware of. Your post was not only cruel and inappropriate, it was not constructive in any way.
THIS is the sort of thing that creates divisiveness.
February 20 at 12:09pm · Edited · Like · 2
Barbara Netti Sheri I understand what you are saying and agree. However is this comment Judy posted in her thread appropriate? Comparing some to Hitler and ISIS? Isn't there a better way things can be said??? (again quoted) "What YOU advocate and what Y...See More
February 20 at 12:15pm · Like · 4
Midhill Farm Sheri and Luella, Barb got there before I did. Why are you not condemning Judy for what she says and the way she says it, you both need to read what she wrote, pretty disgusting.
February 20 at 12:17pm · Like · 2
Luella Malone i read it and I know she was taking about genetic losing the old blood lines and have to say I worry about it also once there gone there gone so making it into something else other then genetic is wrong also...
February 20 at 12:22pm · Like
Marion Clements There is a lot of over-the-top stuff on 'that' board and it should stay over there. If any newer folks interested in Dexter cattle have not yet found it, there is a forum for useful discussion and sound info at:http://dextercattle.proboards.com/
Home | Irish Dexter Cattle
Visit our forum at: dextercattle.proboards.com
DEXTERCATTLE.PROBOARDS.COM
February 20 at 12:34pm · Edited · Like · 4
Marion Clements (Wait for the personal attack on me now, people....)
February 20 at 12:35pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko Much of this entire thread is inappropriate. But stirring it till it stinks accomplishes nothing.
February 20 at 12:36pm · Like
Tanya Michelle Sheri Palko, private PM
February 20 at 12:38pm · Like
Lesa Kinnamon Reid GoodnessGRACIOUS! And now . . . everyone on a Board of Directors has their own agenda and there is little to no transparency by any board? Whew! I am a member of your ADCA board of Directors. Your new Region 8 Director. I am transparent. I am ethical. ...See More
February 20 at 2:06pm · Like · 6
Joel Dowty I thought the original statement was really more about outcrossing than chondro vs non, & I've known we've owned mongrels according to Judy for awhile now. It raises my temperature occasionally when I read something new about it, but then I take a brea...See More
February 20 at 2:32pm · Like · 5
Sheri Palko Oh Lesa, I believe you took too many comments above way too personally. Please take the time to reread for clarification. First, they were general comments about past boards I've served on, second as a brand new director obviously none of the comments, even if they were in the present, could have pertained to you. They were generalities as to reasons for lack of enthusiasm for breed organizations.
February 20 at 2:57pm · Like
Sally Coad This has been going on for years. Yes, Education is the key. We tell everyone who comes to our farm, or who asks, that WE feel the polled genetics and perhaps even the color genetics of some of our cattle come from the European upgrade program allowed ...See More
February 20 at 2:59pm · Like · 10
Joel Dowty & for the record I enjoy dealing with Judy very much. She's always been honest & helpful, & I'd go to her farm any chance I could & give a big ole hug to her & any of her dwarf dexters that would let me, & she or anyone else for that matter is welcome to do the same at mine.
February 20 at 2:59pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson Frankly Lesa Kinnamon Reid, it's nice to see some new faces showing up in the ADCA leadership, it needs to happen more often. I sure don't have the temperament for it though!
February 20 at 3:00pm · Like · 4
Lesa Kinnamon Reid Sally Coad ... Yep. Sheri Palko ... just clarifying that "all boards" doesn't apply to our board
February 20 at 4:51pm · Like
Karrie Winebrenner There is a wonderful video of the Grinstead Herd on here somewhere. One of the premiere historical Dexter Herds. This is one of my favorite videos and I highly recommend it. Watch it, and see what conclusions you draw for yourself.
February 20 at 5:25pm · Like · 2
Marion Clements Yes, mostly all dwarfs, they got rid of the non dwarfs back then. You cannot have a true-breeding herd of dwarfs.
February 20 at 5:28pm · Like · 2
Gary Gustafson Kudos to Sally, love the variety.
February 20 at 9:10pm · Like · 2
Elizabeth Kiepe Ridings Thank You Sally and Lesa.
February 20 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
Dave Morgan I want to apologize for bringing the hateful rant from another board to this group. It was a mistake. It has served no purpose other than to renew rancor within our community and waste a lot your time. I was angry, and from now on that will be my queue to turn off the computer and count to ten. Again, sorry, I hate thinking about all the emotional energy that was wasted today.
February 20 at 10:52pm · Like · 4
Barbara Netti Dave, I understand where you’re coming from. I tried putting a squash on the thread after you mentioned it. Only to wake up the a.m. with 24 unread responses. So much for trying to stop things before they begin. Than of coarse what happens I get entrenched in the conversation. So instead of counting to 10, I’m going to follow what a past Dexter breeder used to say “going to go outside and sit on the porch.”
February 20 at 11:29pm · Like · 1
Louise Ball Dave Morgan, that is very big of you to apologise. I for one can understand your anger and why you responded that way, but it just gives more fuel to the fire. Now go and have a great day with your Dexters and family and forget about it all, there are far greater important things in the world than the bun fight.
Yesterday at 1:27am · Like · 2
Shannon Roberts Berrios Ok, color me clueless, but why is it necessary for any breeder to tell another that their breeding program is wrong? Breeding is about choices and selecting prefered traits. As long as we stay within the guidelines of the registry then we are not wro...See More
Yesterday at 3:38am · Like · 5
Hans Peterson Shannon Roberts Berrios, we personally have a number of dwarf Dexters and prefer this type over the non dwarf, like a number of others on here, so you know my position up front. However, I can point to many instances in other Dexter boards where a ver...See More
Yesterday at 8:30am · Like · 1
Shannon Roberts Berrios I didn't actually read through every post because, well, it got tiresome. I can't say who started the nastiness, but looks like both sides chipped in their fair share. I'm a fairly new breeder, and because I didn't fully educate myself at the onset, ...See More
Yesterday at 9:01am · Like · 3
Gary Gustafson Agree totally with Shannon, the ranters should stay on the pro boards, our experiences become our opinions,but that don't make them right, certainly not for everyone. Which is why I quite following the pro boards, mostly rants and little info.
Yesterday at 9:32am · Like · 2
Hans Peterson Gary, you hit the nail on the head with the statement, "our experiences become our opinions." Many who have extensive experience and opinions based on those extensive experiences are frustrated by those who have NO experience giving contradictory "expert opinions" and spouting "facts" based on hearsay.
Yesterday at 10:02am · Like
Shannon Roberts Berrios The thing you have to keep in the back of your mind is that the other person may be just as passionate as you in their opposite opinion. In that case, you will never change their mind. The other possibility is that they are a troll, and are only tryi...See More
Yesterday at 10:21am · Like · 2
Gary Gustafson Shannon, love your approach, Hans, I agree, but more experience only increases your chances of being correct, does not guarantee it. I live in the Great Lakes snow belt as you do, last winter I watched my chondro calves struggle getting thru the deep snow and didn't want to plow trails all winter, so that's my reason for going to non carriers. Right or wrong in others eyes shouldn't matter.
Yesterday at 10:42am · Like · 2
Marion Clements I have pretty much the same temperatures as Hans and we've had a ton of snow sometimes mixed with freezing drizzle. My non-dwarf cows do just fine.
Yesterday at 11:00am · Like
Susan Albritton Hans Peterson I love chondros. Steve and I have two and thinking about getting another. Also love Shamrock Mike. He is one of my favorite bulls. But I also love polled dun animals. And often the same ugliness you experience with your chondro animals Is...See More
Yesterday at 11:02am · Like · 3
Hans Peterson Gary our non chondro dexters simply walked over our (normally)48" high fences last winter because of packed snow depth The chondros stayed put. Just this morning our non carrier bull went over one because of the snow.
Yesterday at 11:21am · Like
Joel Dowty Hans, you who so adamantly argue your points so well all the time, don't have anything to say regarding the comments questioning your honor? Trading on the dexter name? Won't you & I both be part of the new breed that is being advocated? You've got that pesky MH designation running pretty rampant back there. What shall we name them?
Yesterday at 11:37am · Like
Karrie Winebrenner Hello, It would be so wonderful if we (as a breed) could look at this issue unemotionally; leaving our personal feelings behind and concentrate on the situation as it is. (I believe most of you know I am a traditional breeder, but we all need to try)...See More
Yesterday at 12:41pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson Joel, I think Judy's designations are very fair and accurate for the Dexter breed and truly reflect the status of the individual animals based on the pedigree. I wish it was used by the ADCA. I'm not suggesting that they be removed from the registry,...See More
Yesterday at 1:05pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson We breed all types here, and I'm careful to try to be respectful of the history and pedigrees of all of our Dexters, sometimes at a great effort. It's not easy feeding several different groups all year long. Just today a "modern horned" red non carri...See More
Yesterday at 1:13pm · Like · 1
Shannon Roberts Berrios See, that's why I don't believe in snow...I think it's a horrible, horrible thing and should be outlawed!
23 hrs · Like · 3
Hans Peterson People go to great lengths to see that species of insects and fish and birds don't go extinct. Artifacts of historical importance to us are restored and cherished. There are Dexter breeders who fear that Dexter, in their original form, are headed for...See More
22 hrs · Like · 2
Gary Gustafson Hans, you're using a new term to me, what is a modern horned ? Only heard of polled or horned! Thanks
22 hrs · Like
Sheri Palko The traditional horned do not go back to any polled animals. A modern horned has polled in its pedigree.
22 hrs · Like · 1
Gary Gustafson Thanks Sheri.
22 hrs · Like
Midhill Farm Gary you are right, you've either got horned or polled. The Legacy people invented all those terms to call their animals. They signify which sub group your animals may belong to.
21 hrs · Like · 2
Sally Coad The terms Modern and Traditional are not terms used by the ADCA or PDCA - they are terms that Legacy coined for them.
21 hrs · Like · 2
Sally Coad OOPS.., sorry I see Midhill Farm just answered that
21 hrs · Like · 1
Marion Clements IMO the sub-groups are genetic nonsense and just general nonsense and invented by one person.
21 hrs · Like · 2
Donna Jenkins Judy, I am so sick and tired of reading your rant and raves about us who choose to raise RED POLLED Dexters....And I don't appreciate your name calling either!......Why can't you just breed whatever the _ _ _ _ YOU want to breed and let us breed what W...See More
21 hrs · Like · 1
Mary Jane Phifer We raise both chondro negative and chondro positive Dexters and love them all, but as I consider the appearance of polled Dexters in just 25 years as a "recent phenomenon," we do call our horned cattle "traditional" in the sense that Dexters back 125 yrs ago were all horned. The polled factor is "modern" in comparison. Judy Sponaugle, folks is gonna do what folks is gonna do. I do enjoy your insights and admire your Legacy work. Readers can take it or leave it. However I always am worried about the "Westminster Effect" when something becomes popular to the point that inferior animals might be bred in order to keep up with what is "hot" in the market.
20 hrs · Like · 4
Luella Malone here here Mary Jane Phifer
20 hrs · Like
Mike Mendenhall Dave, you write a very fake apology. You are not sorry for starting this? the only thing you are sorry is that it didnt turn into the judy bashing you had hoped for. yes you did accomplish some of that but there is also some good discussion on here. Judy has helped so many dexter owners and has many friends and supporters.
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Barbara Netti Mike Mendenhall NO one has said Judy never helped anyone. There are MANY on this thread who have spoken out who have helped or who mentor people. With that being said did you read Judys post? Were you not offended in some of the things she said? I was and I know quite a few other people were also. There are ways to get your point across. For Judy if she doesn't feel that she's being heard she goes for the "shock and aw" approach. Just my 2 cents
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Gary Gustafson Wow, folks, I honestly didn't know what MH stood for so I ask, what I thought was a simple question and it got answered. No reason for ten assault messages to follow, this looking like the pro board I left a year ago.
Sent from my iPad
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Shannon Roberts Berrios I was going to repeat myself about people acting like adults, but then I saw a titmouse land on the electric pole in the yard. So I watched it for a few seconds, and then I didn't care anymore...Lol!
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Donna Jenkins AMEN Shannon!
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Donna Jenkins Mary Jane, Are you saying that we polled breeders are breeding "INFERIOR" animals just to keep up with what is hot?.....I sure don't know about anyone else, But I sure am not...The fact that I raise polled red animals does not mean I am breeding" inferior " I do not and will not EVER go outside the Dextercattle to breed my animals...They will ALWAYS be Dexters..I would never intentionally buy anyDexters that were out crossed either....If I knew, I wouldn't buy them...
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Dennis Salyers We should start a Dexter Church, We could have conservatives, liberals, radicals heck we could even have snake handlers. My point is I love my Dexters and I think very highly of a lot of people in this discussion. Come to my farm and you will see all types of these little cows polled, horned, pha short leg long leg. ect there is something for everyone in this breed and nothing any of us can say or do is going to change that. We know this and yet we continue to have these spirited discussion. A many of good churches have been split over such discussions. My favorite most of you know are red short legs but that is not what I get calls for, so I have to breed to the market. I have no ideal what these cows where 125 years ago I just know what they are today, so there for I am going to continue to breed to the market and hopefully continue to as most of you do improve the breed as a whole.
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Donna Jenkins Thank you Dennis...
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Michael Foor-Pessin After carefully reading all of the comments and considering all the passion displayed, I think it is clear that ADCA as an organization is deeply divided and conflicted. Is there a way forward so that both sides feel that their concerns are addressed b...See More
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Barbara Netti Margaret Rawlings pretty much summed it up my feelings Yesterday at 4:27am with her comment “I cannot understand how breeders anywhere other than Au can carry on about purity of Dexters, there was no DNA testing or Parent Verification until very recently. Polled Dexters have a place in the marketplace I say build a bridge and get over it!! Thank you Marg.
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Michael Foor-Pessin Barbara, What does"build a bridge" actually mean?
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone So are they going to dig up ALL the bones of the original Dexters and parent verify their stock back to the 1200's or whenever they honestly THINK the breed became a breed and that NO neighbors bull ever jumped a fence and bred their cow????I understand the want to make it seem one brand of stock is more pure or special but what this is doing is making newbies to the breed think twice about getting involved! What I see as a new owner is if a person loves the dwarfism they are gungho to make that the ONLY true Dexter. If they love horns then that is the ONLY trait they see. What I see looking at OLD pedigrees is the same thing I see when looking at OLDLINE Arabian horses. INBREEDING! LOTS of it! and then you see a line of all black cattle that suddenly have a red pop up out of nowhere. Sorry but to get red there has to be a red gene there somewhere and that means one of those inbred cows or bulls or both are not who they seem. There was a red bull in the hay pile! Why not move forward with the breed with what we have now! Require them to all be PV and DNAed for all the heritable diseases! If you love polled and the cow are bull fits the size requirement(which there should be a required height check at 3-4 years to prove they are not above the standard. I see bulls that are NOT small! If they are well over 4' at hip then they are not truly a SMALL cow/bull. I do not care what their lines say at that point they should NOT be allowed to breed and register offspring.If a cow they should be bred only to small bulls and if a bull then freezer camp! What I mostly want to see is the venomous infighting within the gorgeous fun breed to STOP! YOU PEOPLE are hurting the very breed you claim to LOVE!
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Dave Morgan Sorry you feel that way Mike. I have used Judy's services in the past for testing and had great experiences. I admire her dedication to and passion for preserving what she views as the ideal Dexter. What bothered me, is the language she used to denigrate people who have another view of the ideal Dexter. There is no excuse for it. The person who was discussing alternatives to using the Chondro gene is persistent, but always respectful, just as most people on this group are. My mistake was trying to shine a light on something that should have been left in a dark corner. Won't happen again.
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Barbara Netti Michael, you can not take part of a phrase and get the meaning.
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Shannon Roberts Berrios Barbara Netti, while I got what you meant, the typo made me chuckle!
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Barbara Netti HA HA, thank you Shannon Roberts Berrios it's been corrected.
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Michael Foor-Pessin Barbara, I read her entire quote. Her point isn't clear. Her tone is contradictory. "Building a bridge" suggests positive compromise; "Get over it" has just the opposite connotation.
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Barbara Netti Michael, you are being to technical. It is one idiom not two. "get over it" can mean. "Don't concern yourself with something that's already in the past; accept it and move on to more productive pursuits". There are several meanings. This is how I took it and is why I said that she summed up my feelings.
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Donna Jenkins Joel Dowty, what does the MH stand for?
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Louise Ball "build a bridge" is a colloquial term we use in Australia, it signifies getting over "the river", the "river" being whatever is upsetting you and you are carrying on about, it means "get over it and get on with it". Another term would be that you are all getting "your knickers in a knot", in other words carrying on and getting in a tizz about something insignificant.
We would tell some one to"go bulid a bridge".
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Louise Ball You obviously don't have "build a bridge" as a colloquial term in the US.
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Joel Dowty Donna, the legacy registry designates cattle as legacy, traditional horned, modern horned (MH), & polled. I think that's all the categories. The designation the animal receives is determined by the bloodlines.
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Hans Peterson It seems to me the comment of build a bridge and get over it is directed at those who wish to keep some semblance of the Dexter identity and history intact, that they should just give up and deal with it A one way bridge so to speak. Food for thoug...See More
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Hans Peterson To add a bit, I thank Steve LeGrand and Chis Ricard for the use of the beautiful horned Dexter at the top of this page. Click on that photo and look at the comments. I think that tells a story as well.
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Michael Foor-Pessin Thanks Hans. You understand the true tone of the colloquial term used here and capture my feelings. My ADCA number is 479. I have been raising Dexters for decades. As a member I was NEVER given the opportunity to vote on whether to accept polled animals into the registry. There are others in the association that know the deatils, but for me the whole affair was shrouded in mystery. Not allowing an open and informed discussion and a vote by the membership is, for me, the core of this issue. I harbor no ill feeloings toward any member who has registered polled dexters since then because you were following the new guidelines. I don't believe that ADCA as an organization has honestly and openly addressed this issue. Those of you who just want me to "build a bridge and get over it" should ask yourselves this question: What if the Board of ADCA, in the near future, decided to change the requirements again, this time excluding polled animals. No vote from the membership, just the Board. How would you feel? How hard would it be for you to "build that bridge"?
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Mary Jane Phifer Donna Jenkins I did not say you or any other Dexter breeder was indeed breeding inferior animals to keep up with what was popular. In another couple years there will be so many reds that who knows? Maybe blacks and duns who carry no red will be all the rage? Ha!
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Michael Foor-Pessin That isn't the issue. The issue was the injustice done by the association that has not been sufficiently addressed. I believe that if the association is to truly embrace the diversity of what is now the dexter some changes need to be made, so that al...See More
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Midhill Farm I'm thinking the ADCA don't have a problem, some of the members of the ADCA have some issues. However most of the people that have the issues with polled joined the ADCA knowing full well that they allowed polled animals. You may be an exception to that being a long standing member.
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Hans Peterson At this time, there are only 4 traditional red Dexter cows in the U.S. Do we care about this? Does it alarm anyone?
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Mary Jane Phifer It is what it is now; water under the bridge. Dexters come in enough colors, shapes, and now sizes to be attractive to just about anyone to suit their particular purpose, or multipurpose. Judy Sponaugle is working to keep the new and old lines from b...See More
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Midhill Farm Hans, you are putting these animals in sub groups again, most of us don't. To most of us there are plenty of red horned animals about.
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Luella Malone Many long time members should be the exception and there are many ...
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Michael Foor-Pessin Mary Jane and Midhill. Neither of you will acknowledge the injustice done in the past.Why not? Was it okay to make such a change without a rank and file vote? I personally would feel much better if ADCA took some responsibility for its actions in the past and admit that a mistake was made. Then, moving forward would be the next healthy step..
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Mary Jane Phifer It cannot be undone- nothing will change that or make it better. What we can do is this; move forward- agree to promote our cattle, genotype the offspring, cull out inferior animals, and educate the new buyer.
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Hans Peterson Midhill Farms, perhaps there are only 4 traditional red Dexter cows out there precisely because "most of us don't put them into subgroups."
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Sheri Palko One of the long standing challenges BOD members have had is getting information to its members. The assumption over the last 10 years has been more sharing of information to the general membership due to social media. Instead two things have unexpectedly happened, with the ADCA and every other breed organization I'm a member of. First, the BOD feels that sharing every topic in detail is something the membership doesn't care about and/or is simply too much detail to bother sharing, and second there have been way too many outlets for communication on social media, that the membership has no way of knowing where the relevant information lies, and the "Web page" for each organization does not contain all of the information, nor should it.
So... the only solution we've found that works... someone "in the know" (usually a BOD member) needs to be willing to maintain a less public but easily accessible information center. This is tough because it's time consuming and those willing to dedicate their time are ineffective because they are not "in the know" and those in the know are already strung thin with their BOD duties (a few do the work while the majority complain so the work is always inadequate). Divisiveness among BOD members makes accomplishing anything productive even more of a challenge.
Distribution of this information should not be on the main club Web page because no club wants to air all their laundry. Establishing non public fb pages (or massive email lists but those are more labor intensive) is a good way too keep the membership informed. A place where all BOD meetings and even conversations, budgets, reports, etc, can be posted for those to keep up with what's going on. Newsletters are not effective for this kind of regular communication, they are too infrequent and frequently lack substance.
The way I see it is that those of us in this discussion are just a small part of the general membership. Most people (myself included) don't read all posts on forums like this. Frankly we don't care to read rants and bitching. Most dexter owners lack the knowledge to even test and register and much of that info is way too mysterious. A place to go for info, facts, and current issues with NO bitching which is closely monitored to avoid crap getting out of hand like this is what is called for. All BOD meetings and conversations should be scheduled week in advance and the general membership invited to listen.
The key to this club moving forward, not loosing members, and gaining new members, is establishing excellent communication options.
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Sheri Palko I'm now unsubscribing to this thread because it is taking too much of my feed and is non productive. If the adca jumps up and takes the bull by the horns and decides to be proactive I'll consider rejoining the ADCA. I have waiting to submit my 2015 membership until after the annual meeting to simply see how things evolve. The older I get, the less time I am wrong to spend wading through crap to get the answers I want.
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Michael Foor-Pessin Mary Jane. Your ideas about the future are solid--I agree. What about Hans' suggestion? What is wrong with creating subgroups so that a potential buyer knows the genetic history of an animal? Let's put all of this genotyping to good use. To a long-time member like me the association needs to admit its mistake publicly. What was done was unfair, and words like "We are sorry." matter.
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Mary Jane Phifer Sheri Palko, hang in there. The ADCA does need your input as do we all.
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Hans Peterson so, because there are plenty of red modern horned Dexters out there, it's OK to have one of the three colors of our traditional Dexters become completely extinct? The grouping that Legacy created is NOT to determine what Dexters are good, bad, and bes...See More
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Hans Peterson I don't love my modern horned Dexters any more or less than my traditional Dexters. I just see my traditional Dexters as a subgroup that needs to be preserved and I take a lot of pride in doing so.
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Hans Peterson (Hans' wife, Sheril here) The subgroups are already out there, whether people subscribe or not. Knowing Judy, I don't think she and Legacy are going anywhere. So the question is, do you inform your buyers? And if not, how will they respond when they find out?
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Luella Malone Here Here Mrs Hans Peterson
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Shaun Ann Lord Michael Foor-Pessin is correct........the early deceit and manipulation needs to be acknowledge by the ADCA and apologized for. Despite what Carol maintains, the Board at the time of polled introduction could no way allow the membership to vote for or ...See More
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Midhill Farm Shaun, I don't know what you think I keep maintaining but none of us are responsible for what happened twenty years ago, we just aren't, BUT we are punished for it verbally by the likes of you and Judy, but it is what it is. If you guys feel you want an appology then you should all contact the Board and work with them on it.
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Midhill Farm Hans, your red dexters are no different than other red dexters to us. There are only two sorts of red. If you want to put animals in sub groups over at Legacy go at it, most of us don't care, but don't force us to. Legacy is one persons creation, no Board of directors, not recognised by the ADCA. I just don't mind what you do over there, and find it surprising that you all mind what we do.
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Shaun Ann Lord No, Carol, I have not participated in the name calling, saying ' polled pushers' in the past' isn't name calling. Don't lump me with Judy's choice of words in this thread. I've tried in the above post to explain the reason traditionalists are upset. Twenty years ago is not ancient history, we obviously are all involved with the repercussions today.
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Midhill Farm Hi Sheril, yes the sub groups are out there, but only in Legacy, the ADCA don't have them. Who knows they may catch on, but I support MY breed organisation and follow their rules not Legacys.
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Midhill Farm Shaun, excuse me but didn't you once say on FB that "all polled breeders were bad breeders"? That's offensive to some, just as much as what Judy wrote.
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Michael Foor-Pessin As a association we are ALL responsible for what our association does--in the past and in the future. I understand you were not on the Board at the time, but any governing body of an organization is held accountable by the membership to all deciisions. We live in a democracy. I will approach the Board about this, but all members of the association should seek this justice. If injustice could happen to we old-time breeders, it can and will happen again. If all of us on both sides of the issue demand the ADCA to set the record straight the entire breed benefits. Midhill Farm and others who breed polled dexters, I am asking you to help me build a new bridge for ADCA. one that allows traffic to move in both directions.
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Hans Peterson The groups or classes that Legacy has developed are not designed to be discriminatory in any way. They are designed to be informational, allowing breeders to select for their preferred type of Dexter without having to wade through pedigrees to find if there was an ancestor in there that was out of English upgraded lines.
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Shaun Ann Lord Never said bad breeders. I have stated that in the haste to jump on the financial bandwagon poor examples of red polled are offered as breeding sires ( in particular) and still think that . You and I have discussed that messaging. Don't twist this.
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Hans Peterson Sort of like CarFax for Dexters (Sheril's idea)
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Hans Peterson Maybe if Judy had called it CowFax it would gain more acceptance
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Patti Adams His Mom Served Burnt toast , but he was shocked when his Dad said this. “When I was about eight or nine, my mom burnt some toast . One night that stood out in my mind is when she had made dinner for us after a very long and rough day at work, She placed a plate of jam and extremely burned toast in front of my dad. Not slightly burnt but completely blackened toast. I was just waiting to see if anyone noticed the burnt toast and say anything. But Dad just ate his toast and asked me if I did my homework and how my day was. I don’t remember what I told him that night, but I do remember hearing my mom apologizing to dad for burning the toast. And I’ll never forget what he said: “Sweetie, I love burned toast.” Later that night, I went to tell my dad good night and ask him if he really liked his toast burned. He put his arm on my shoulder and said, “Your momma put in a very long day at work today and she was very tired. And besides, A burnt toast never hurts anyone but you know what does? Harsh words!” The he continued to say “You know, life is full of imperfect things and imperfect people I’m not the best at hardly anything, and I forget birthdays and anniversaries just like every other human. What I’ve learned over the years, is that learning to accept each others faults and choosing to celebrate each other’s differences, is one of the most important keys for creating a healthy, growing, and lasting relationship. Life is too short to wake up with regrets. Love the people who treat you right and have compassion for the ones who don’t.” Enjoy Life Now.
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Hans Peterson This is right off of the Legacy site (Judy) regarding testing for polled. Explain how this is a knock by Judy on polled Dexters... and why she deserves the ire some polled breeders have toward her.
Introduction...See More
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Hans Peterson Some background on polled to add to Shaun Ann Lord and her post above. For those of you who would like a better understanding. www.thomasdexters.com/index.asp?ID=72
Thomas' Dexters
Addition of Polled semen to the ADCA from England: AGM July 17, 1993 - White River Junction, VermontOfficers:...
THOMASDEXTERS.COM
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Shaun Ann Lord Have to laugh at my above post on name calling......yes, polled pushers is name calling but certainly not individual on individual. It's a generalization of those who actively participated in the pyramid scheme. Common terminology amongst us traditionalists.
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Hans Peterson Midhill Farms, but the question is, if informed, would your buyers care about the Legacy categories? Some people want Dexters because they are a heritage breed. Do these people deserve to know about Legacy? You've been on the record demanding that buyers receive full disclosure about chondrodysplasia and that all animals from chondro herds be genetically tested. Don't buyers also deserve full disclosure about the known upgrades in the pedigrees of Dexters they are purchasing?
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Michael Foor-Pessin Thanks Hans for the history. Reading the actual minutes of the meetings is so enlightening. All members of the association should be concerned about such behavior. At the next Board meeting of ADCA, I wouuld like the curent Board to publicly distance itself from such egregous behavior and actively work toward saving our association from all of the confusion and in fighting. I am going to write the Board myself and make such a request. I would like others to do so as well.
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Shaun Ann Lord If other American institutions are not above apologizing for past bad behavior the ADCA shouldn't be either. I do think an apology for mishandling the introduction of polled genetics will go a long way towards healing the two decades of bitterness. Then through leadership reach out to both camps for compromise avoiding another twenty years of this issue.
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Midhill Farm Hans, I think all the info new people could ever want about Dexters is out there. The question is, do they do enough research?
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone So are all the animals that will be considered legacy or the like be tested genetically against all the other genotyped breeds to prove that they carry no angus, shorthorn,jersey or other lines? I know many people think their animals are pure. I also know I have run into many that when the DNAed the animals they did not match the parents on the papers... So how can you HONESTLY tell me that NO mistakes were made 20-30-50-100-150-200 years ago??? SERIOUSLY! We have a breed that should NOW be called American Dexter Cattle. We have been breeding for the traits we consider important and value! If you close the books now and say all must be PV then what you will have is a BREED that is bred only from those animals that are PV to the existing herd! I understand promoting the older lines but if it makes the breed and registry weak and seeming to have petty people you will not attract new breeder/owners. What made me fall in love with these small cows 20+ years ago and dream of owning them was not a damn piece of paper! It was a cow calf pair presented at the HLSR in Houston. It was a lady I met who LOVED her little cow! She talked about them with same type love I have for my oldline Arab and talked of making the breed truly great here. She said they were dual purpose and great for small farms and hobby cheese makers. She did not stand out in the isle bashing her neighbors red cow because she had a black horned cow with a dun calf. If I had seen that do you honestly think I would have wanted to get involved??? Why do you think many want their cows unregistered? It is not just price it is simply put why get into the breeding debate. I for one am not a fan of the shorties. A genetic fault should be bred out... but this is my opinion and many LOVE their shorties and breed for them. They are not wrong. For them the Shorties are what they love just like many adore polled! I have ONE polled goat of Boer breeding. I would not register her offspring as Nubian but I love that I do not have to burn the horns off my babies. I would love to add the polled gene to my herd of small cows for the same reason. I love the horns. They are so cute until they shake their head and me in a rib or the arm. So for me NOT having to burn,acid burn or surgically remove the horns would be a plus. And yes I realize that was a trait added. It is now accepted and bred for so instead of calling them IRISH(we are not in Ireland) Dexters lets call them American Dexters. If you want to have bloodline designation please do it in a way that is not derogatory to any breeders lines because remember what you love may be the same trait someone else hates. EACH breeder breeds for what THEY consider a perfect Dexter(Nubian,Nigerian Dwarf, Angus,ETC ETC!) Let all start forward to make this breed the BEST it can be not tear the registry apart and break all the cattle up into smaller registries that hate each other. If all the fighting continues many like me will simply STOP registering our cows... I will keep mine for my own use and sell the calves without papers and warn buyers off from dealing with the insanity. It is not a GOOD thing! I love my cows I am growing to HATE what I see within the group of breeders!
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Midhill Farm Shaun, if I come across that post I will message it to you, but certainly not trying to twist anything.
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Midhill Farm we can all argue until we are blue in the face, we have in the past, it gets us nowhere fast. The whole point from the OP was the diatribe from one person.
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Tanya Michelle Thank You Cassandra Coleman Mennone, RIGHT ON! ^ Like, Like, Like…….
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Bob Wellington Every bred of cattle (pig, goat, sheep,dog, cat rabbit, etc) (even happens in wild populations) has this happen! good god it's natural selection! Man just manipulates it. Give it a rest for gods sake!
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone Yes basically one person but it is on EVERY Dexter and cow board I go to! Trust me if the first things you see on any given board is VENOM you will go another way! I am glad I got my cows before I started reading all this or I would have bought Zebu!
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Hans Peterson So, Midhill Farms, by your statement, "Hans, I think all the info new people could ever want about Dexters is out there. The question is, do they do enough research?
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Hans Peterson are you saying that "buyer beware" with Legacy and peidgrees and upgrades, but anyone who breeds chondro needs to have contracts signed in blood saying that they informed their buyer that they have a chondro carrier on the farm?
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Pete Harper I'm new to Dexters and can see the passon on both sides of the argument. I thought I would comment on the tthread of breed education from a newbies perspective. Now days with the internet you would have to live in a cave not know about the controversy of polled vs non-polled dexters. Just google Dexters and you'll find hundreds of resources out there. Education is not an issue. The information is out there. Threads like this only serve to shed a negative light on the breed. Nobody likes to see bickering.
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone I think all breeders should be willing to talk to their buyers about the pros and cons of Chondros. I did all sorts of research asap when I got my girls because ALL breeds have their genetic weaknesses, things you need to know to avoid pitfalls and problems. So the first thing I did was type in Genetic faults of Dexter cattle in Google. Then Genetic testing. I have done the same research for my Arabian horses, my Nubian goats and we breed a herd of MIXED breed hair sheep that I keep breeding info on so we do not keep super inbred ewes. I consider that I need to be an informed breeder. I also read the standards and try to follow what they say the breed should be. BUT that said what I see is many who will willingly breed two chondros and I have to honestly wonder WHY? Why take the chance when you have the info in your hands to avoid that heartbreak? I do not see how having dead calves even once in a while is good for a breeder or breed? JMO.
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Hans Peterson Pete, I breed both polled and modern horned and traditional Dexters. I love them all. But the traditional lines of Dexters are becoming rare. I think buyers deserve to know that there are different classifications of Dexters based on the KNOWN upgrades in their pedigrees. To find out about such classifications AFTER purchasing is not fair to the buyer.
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Pete Harper For me personally, I did my homework before purchsing our first Dexters. For our small backyard operation I could see the advantages of raising polled stock. I remember as a kid helping my uncle dehorn calves. Not something I wanted to do if there was a better alternative. Next I looked at color. OK purely athetics for sure. But if you are going to raise cattle why not have something enjoyable. In our area Angus are the breed of choice. A black polled dexter looks too much like an Angus. I decided to go with red Dexters.
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone I love black... My mom wants dun and red. So I have my blacks and we are going to get her a red or dun polled heifer. or dehorned? But she wans the colour and that is just fine... But to me the gleaming black is just breathtaking!!!!
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Pete Harper Finally to put this all in prespective. On your dinner plate does it really matter polled vs non-polled, registered vs non-registered, black, red or dun.
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Midhill Farm Here ya go Shaun, someone told me when the post was. February 11, 2012 at 11:51am · Like .. Shaun Ann Lord I do regard polled breeders as bad breeders, never made a secret of that, and I'm not the only one. This disagreement is going nowhere.......you champion polled and I will continue to discredit it. The birth of seventy pound calves goes a long ways towards that discrediting. The three I mentioned it to were floored.......can't believe it and want nothing to do with polled in general. I had Lucifer genetics (Postal Patron) and did not have big calves, the only big calf was one of Lochinvars, he also had the smallest calf born here, less than twenty five pounds. Sorry the issue has come to this. February 11, 2012 at 1:15pm · Like
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Karrie Winebrenner Just a heartfelt comment --- In my community, the phrase "to build a bridge" has a strong meaning........ It is used when 2 different groups/individuals are at complete odds with one another. The lines have been drawn, sides are taken, and all is ready........ One would "build a bridge" - stop, reach out to the other in friendship and hope - looking to mend the relationship. It is always the hope that the other side meets at the bridge or better yet begins to build their own with the hopes of meeting together....... Just a thought?
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Pete Harper I applaude the efforts of the Legacy breeders, your efforts are admirable. The world is a big tent, there is plenty of room for everyone; Legacy, PDCA, and ADCA.
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Ruth Schihl With all the information that is out there, it can be quite confusing to the new prospective buyer. It would be much easier IF the ADCA followed the guideline of BOTH parents having to be registered before they could register any baby. And they would have to have their DNA on file for matching. Then the buyers would have no question of what they are purchasing. The Thoroughbred industry and the Friesian Horse Industry are top notch at this. There are "sub" registries for those who are not "100%" of their breed. Then everybody could be happy for the type of herd they are wanting.
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Midhill Farm Hans, Polled animals are classified on the online pedigree, but Chondro carriers are only classified if the owner tests and reports. So yes you bet buyers should beware!
2 hrs · Like
Hans Peterson Karrie Winebrenner (Sheril here). I applaud your words. I am off on vacation this week and thought it would be fun to be involved a bit in the "Dexter Cattle Enthusiast" page. When I wrote that there were only 4 red traditional Dexter cows left in the U.S, I thought the page would light up with concerned "Dexter Enthusiasts" being alarmed at the thought of having a historical part of the breed that they "love" so close to extinction... the posts that followed really disappointed me. So many breeders who basically said, "who cares?" It'd be like people from the audubon society not caring if there were only 4 Bald Eagles left in the U.S. and saying, "there are other Eagles out there; what difference does it make if they have a white head and tail?" Hans says that you are always working to try to bring people together. Keep up the good fight...
2 hrs · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin Karrie, You are absolutely right about buiding bridges. That's why I would like you to help me and others of a like mind ON BOTH SIDES of the issue to write to the Board and insist that they distance themselves from the 1993 decision that has led to this mess. Let's all sit down, use the new science of DNA, and come up with classifications that are relaible and clear to new buyers. We can not expect the new buyer to dig through all this material, not when we as a association have the means to provide this information for them.
2 hrs · Like · 1
Joel Dowty Frankly, i think if I was someone looking to get into cattle, & had decided that this small breed of cattle was what I needed, & I visited a farm with all "types" of dexters like say yours, Hans, I doubt I'd buy them. I can imagine how it could go..."so there are legacy dexters which are horned & really rare, traditional dexters which are horned & quite rare, modern horned of which there are quite a few out there, & polled which are abundant, right? But the modern horned can descend from an animal that introduced polled to the registry, but can also descend from completely different animals, right? & I can't tell one MH from another MH from a TH, but it does matter, right?"
By the time we got around to pha & chondro, I'd be ready to go find a different breed or go somewhere that had less expensive grade animals with the traits I desired, rather then pay for registered stock. I had a conversation with a gentleman the other day looking for heifers. He couldn't find anyone close & went out of state for unregistered dexters. He didn't even know there were 2 assns., much less 4 different subgroups & a couple genetic issues to worry about. More power to those that can explain all this to someone looking for cattle & still convince them this is the breed they should go with. Please don't take this to mean that I'm advocating a misinformed buyer. I just don't see it helping the breed, same as the split. Lost animals will be the result. We're a breed for the small landholder, most of whom won't be willing to wade through it all.
I contacted someone fairly near to me recently that I learned had a passion for dexters. We emailed a bit, & after he checked out my fb page he asked "what type" I raised. I guess you can't tell from pics. When I sent him more info I heard from him no more. I wasn't trying to sell anything, didn't have anything TO sell. Just thought a like-minded dexter lover might like to visit. Nope. I guess my sneeches need stars upon thars
2 hrs · Like · 3
Cassandra Coleman Mennone Thoroughbred is really tops... We raised racers and I can tell you if the foal does not match who the parents are you do not get papers till you prove the parents. No percentage lass than 100% is allowed to race! Arabian horse as well. I support PV if ...See More
2 hrs · Like · 3
Ruth Schihl Joel Dowty, you are incorrect. I did visit Hans's farm and that helped me make my decision. I learned so much it is incredible! They have everything for every type of buyer. From one wanting top-notch show animals to the one wanting just an animal to raise for beef. I went personally for the higher quality animals with awesome pedigree's. Looking at it from the resale point of view that I want animals that produce top quality milk A2/A2, good quality beef, not to mention the nice conformation the animals have for future 4-h showing or showing in general.
1 hr · Like · 1
Joel Dowty That's awesome Ruth, I'm really glad you had that experience & I'm sure others have as well. I just mean for someone like me.
1 hr · Like
Marion Clements Joel Dowty your sneeches comment really does cover it! All this sub-group nonsense has really harmed the breed. But...I guess it makes some people feel Unique & Special and it's all about attention, even if that attention becomes notoriety but for a few 'supporters' who have drunk the Koolade.
44 mins · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Marion - ha ha That isn't true. . .we both know it. The categories are a method to give people who want to purchase and breed Dexters the opportunity to KNOW the bloodlines. THANK GOODNESS. Legacy and traditional cattle are the US bloodlines previous to 1980 when Dexers with ancestors from the upgrading and/or experimental registries established in England in 1943 , Modern horned are the horned cattle with bloodlines which trace to modern imported semen to the US, and polled is rather self explanatory. The Legacy effort is to raise awareness. . . . . . 85% of ALL animals being registered in the US ( I think it is actually a bit higher now) are from the polled bloodlines ALL of which go back to Saltaire Platinum. That's not a good thing in ANY breed of cattle. It took less than 50 years to turn the horned Hereford breed into a primarily polled breed and when polled was introduced there were literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Herefords because in the 1920's forward they were the DOMINANT beef breed in American. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of living breeding Herefords. When the semen for Saltaire Platinum came to America his registration number was 6504. For all time we had only registered a few head over 6500. Were the bull not so problematic, and if the lies and deceit so prevalent it took TWENTY THREE years before ADCA would admit the truth of the outcrossings in that bull. . . . .and meanwhile. . . . .Dexters were being changed drastically in the US. Don't worry Marion. . . . it isn't far from a moot issue. Soon there will only be ONE category. MODERN POLLED. Science will confirm the statistics on that for you.
Just now · Edited · Like
Judy Sponaugle Let me tell breeders who are not aware of some Legacy facts. . Legacy established the first Dexter Cattle database of DNA samples at UCD in 2004. Legacy negotiated with the A2 Corporation with the permission of UCD to obtain A2 testing for the average cattle owner in America who were NOT permitted to test for A2. Legacy then negotiated with Australia for the rights to test for chondrodysplasia, and finally with Jon Beever and got the first permission for a public funded laboratory versus for-profit to do those tests. UCD then provided pricing for all these tests that was LESS than 1/2 cost of what owners were paying everywhere else, and it forced other labs to drop prices. Legacy provided the first opportunity for owners to have all tests available at one lab for exceptional pricing. And then, in the original intent to have all Dexters permently identified and their Legacy kept at one laboratory location. . . . .Legacy came up with the idea for DIRECT TESTING at UCD with CONTRACT pricing. .willing to take the decrease in business to afford owners control over their animals and results. THAT is what has the naysayers on here in a dither. the success and hard work and accomplishments for YOU, because Legacy nor me personally has ever benefited in any way. In any way folks. Their gripes are personality based, but they do not shun the benefits that Legacy has brought to them personally or to the breed. Legacy is working for YOU, whether you breed polled or horned. . .but the primary focus of Legacy was to alert Dexter owners to a crisis of numbers in the horned bloodlines. The very foundation of the breed.
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Dave MorganDexter Cattle Enthusiasts
February 19 at 9:56pm · Beaver Creek, OR · Edited
I am reposting a comment below, made by Judy Sponaugle on another Dexter discussion board. I will not comment on this, but I think it provides important insights for breeders of polled and Chondro non-carrier Dexters on Ms. Sponaugle's opinion of your breeding choices. A link to the entire thread is included.
Dexter Cattle World: Trying to create a pseudo short legged Dexter (by jamshundred)
dextercattleworld.proboards.com/index.cgi…
Darn it Kirk you are being redundan...
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Trying to create a pseudo short legged Dexter | Dexter Cattle World
For years, there have been some Dexter owners who have claimed to have developed a substitute for a short legged Dexter by selectively breeding down the size of larger cattle. They called them almost
DEXTERCATTLEWORLD.PROBOARDS.COM
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Elias Kyrt Watson and Deb Kelln like this.
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February 19 at 11:03pm · Like
Barbara Netti As upsetting as Judys comments are I would suggest that we keep the Dexter Cattle Enthusiasts face book site free from any more arguments. Instead please direct your comments to your director, or president of the ADCA. Another reason for this suggest...See More
February 19 at 11:47pm · Like · 5
Tanya Michelle Totally agree Barbara.
February 19 at 11:52pm · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin I diaagree with Tanya and Barbara. This site should be open to all discussion about the Dxter breed. I'm sure that Judy is as "enthusiast" about Dexters as you are. I'm sure the directors and president of ADCA are well aware olf the situation. All side...See More
February 20 at 12:07am · Like · 6
Tanya Michelle I'm afraid I'm not open for discussion on this matter. I also do not want my words smeared all over the Internet without my knowledge. That's in bad taste.
February 20 at 12:13am · Like · 2
Barbara Netti Michael, this is not about censuring free discussions. All I did was make a suggestion. This has been going on for years now and people are getting tired of it.
February 20 at 12:16am · Like · 4
Michael Foor-Pessin All suggestions should be welcome. That's the point of a free media. If the discussion has been going on "for years," I suggest we entertain the idea that there is true merit to the argument., and we do more to finally resolve the issue. (The women's suffrage movement took over a century of heated debate to finally be resolved! Women refused to have their views silenced.) I have been breeding Dexters for almost 30 years, and the evolution of the beed has been dramatic. When I started with my first heifer calf for my son in 4H, polled Dexters were unheard of. The influx of polled genestics was so rapid that I made the decision to "close" my herd until I could sort out the landscape. My gradfather, one of the true mentors in my life, who raised Herefords, inculcated into me the notion that "when you are done with a breed" you should have done justice to it." This is the essence of the disagreement.
February 20 at 12:35am · Edited · Like · 8
Louise Ball Those who wish to get involved in such discussions can go to that forum and say whatever they wish. There is no reason to drag it onto every other discussion group. Some people prefer to not participate in other forums as they prefer to not have to wade through so much unpleasantness. This is a "mainly" very nice group where people are respectful to each other, personally I would like to leave it that way.
I agree Barbara Netti, also this backbiting is tiresome, I have better things to spend my time on reading.
February 20 at 1:12am · Like · 4
Judy Sponaugle Barb Your leadership just published a rumor based article sanctioning three more outcrossings in the polled bloodlines making a total of SEVEN in most ten line polled pedigrees.
February 20 at 1:14am · Edited · Like · 3
Judy Sponaugle are most breeders aware 85% of all registrations are descendents of one bull with a minimum of 6 outcrossings now in his ten line pedigree. Tanya if you are concerned your words are being spread across the internet I hope you are worried. they are being gathered by FB and given to corporate interests and the government so maybe you should not type if you have concerns about privacy. LOL
February 20 at 1:22am · Edited · Like · 2
Louise Ball The thing that people seem to forget, is that regardless of all the talk and backbiting, I can assure everyone, "The sun will come up tomorrow morning" and for the world, that is the important thing.
In the grand scheme of things in the World,( even though to breeders they are important to us) Dexters really aren't that important. Some people may think that they are, but try telling that to someone who is dying of cancer, is trying to feed their starving children, is trying to escape from Muslim extremists, get my gist?
So, lets just talk nice things about Dexters on here.
February 20 at 1:20am · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin I consider myself a "nice " person who is committed to political causes as well as the future of the Dexter breed. Louise, I get your "gist." Please, just answer this simple question for me: How could a horned breed of cattle suddenly have so may polled animals enter the gene pool without the introduction of the genes from a polled species of cattle?
February 20 at 11:37am · Edited · Like · 4
Louise Ball This kind of discussion really isn't that important here in Australia where I come from, as there are just so many sources of polling that it is irrelevant to us. By our breed Standard here in Australia, a Dexter can be polled or horned, and yes, even though we have had parent verification since the beginning, on our database, there are plenty of polled animals that have come from horned parents. How ? Who knows? but they are on the database for all to see.
February 20 at 1:58am · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin Thanks Louise. I guess my question is directed then to US breeders of polled Dexters. I am currently putting together a new yoke of young Dexter oxen. To be oxen an animal needs horns. What happened? The original Dexter was not dual purpose as everyone touts them to be, but they were tri-purpose. What happened to draft?How can a breed change like this so quickly?
February 20 at 2:06am · Like · 3
Louise Ball Michael Foor-Pessin, I am not for nor against polling. Polling just is. I have a couple of polled cattle, I bought them, and continue breeding not just for their polling but for their breeding and their conformation. Most of my cattle are horned (dehorned). Most dexters in Australia are horned, but there are some breeders who breed exclusively for poll, (and it has taken them a lot of hard work to get where they are with homozygous polled, and I admire them for their hard work) and some like myself who may have a few.
In Australia, polling just is, there is non of these raging debates, breeders just breed for what they like. Have a look at Australian Polled Dexters, there are some very good ones over here.
February 20 at 2:29am · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin Louise, I don't understand "just is." Genetics is science, not "magic." I don't have a problem with polled breeders.I really don't. I admire their dedication and hard work, and I am sure they are producing some wonderful animals, but they are creating a new breed. I can't put an oxen yoke on a polled animal; it's like a car with no breaks. Let's acknowledge what is happening, and let's stop pretending that they are breeding Irish Dexters. They are creating a new breed--great. Yes? Come up with a new breed name.This isn't new. Welcome to human/animal husbandry! Look at all the breeds of dogs, for example.
February 20 at 2:51am · Edited · Like · 4
Margaret Rawlings I cannot understand how breeders anywhere other than Au can carry on about purity of Dexters, there was no DNA testing or Parent Verification until very recently. Polled Dexters have a place in the marketplace I say build a bridge and get over it!!
February 20 at 5:27am · Like · 6
Louise Ball You know Margaret Rawlings, I learnt long ago with my dogs, unless you have proof( parent verify,) a pedigree is only worth the piece of paper it is written on.
Michael Foor-Pessin, what I mean about polling "just is", it is accepted as part of the breed in Australia, and it "just is" a particular trait that that animal has, no big deal, nobody makes a fuss, just like being red or dun, or having a bit of white on the udder.
Anyway, I really didn't want to get drawn in to your bun fight in the US, not my dog fight.
February 20 at 6:13am · Like · 3
Judy Allen Hi Michael, it seems that the original Irish Dexter is long, long gone. I have seen photos of what I suppose are the original, taken at Hawkesbury Agricultural College, in Australia, years ago. These were very milky little, types. As Margaret suggests...See More
February 20 at 6:49am · Like · 2
Midhill Farm There's a handful of people that hate polled animals. I guess they will have to deal with it. Next?
February 20 at 6:52am · Like · 3
Michael Foor-Pessin If you read my post carefully, you will see that I don't hate polled animals. I believe I made that clear. I am NOT trying to pick a fight, just trying to understand the landscape.Honest dialogue is a constructive way to "deal with it."
February 20 at 7:11am · Like · 2
Luella Malone no not everyone hates polled I choose to keep the old blood lines I have friend that has polled and sells beef and iam very thankful for anyone that has the old blood lines so all the wonderful old genetic that people fell ...See More
February 20 at 7:40am · Like · 1
Midhill Farm Michael, that's good you are not one of them. On the other hand, you don't recognise polled animals as Dexters, you want them called something else?
? I'd say you have some sort of an issue. Look, OUR breed society has accepted them for years, YOU are the one with the problem.February 20 at 7:56am · Like · 2
Doreen Barker There are a lot of questions when it comes to Dexter genetics. Unfortunately, that's the reality of the situation. I wanted Dexters for the many different facets but when the genetics start altering enough that we are taking away certain traits and gen...See More
February 20 at 8:14am · Like · 1
Sheri Palko I wasn't going to comment but feel the necessity to say this... it all goes back to education. Something sorely lacking to the general public about this breed. Even those who take the time to research have trouble finding accurate, straight forwar...See More
February 20 at 8:17am · Edited · Like · 3
Brenda Gill Allegrezza I have not totally followed this in great detail however, I own and operate a retail store online and a brick and mortar store. When you post something on the internet it become public property. In otherwords posting things on facebook, reviews, commen...See More
February 20 at 8:19am · Like
Brenda Gill Allegrezza I don't want to ruffle any feathers or anything I just felt led to clarify.
February 20 at 8:20am · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin I realize that the governing body at the time recognized polled dexters into the ADCA. Healthy organizations need to be flexible if they are to prosper and serve the needs of the members into the future. It is clear from this post and MANY others that...See More
February 20 at 8:53am · Like · 4
Judy Sponaugle Sheri, I have many friends who raise polled. I work with breeders of polled and horned and all are treated with the same respect and given the same service and attention. BUT. . . .the original foundation horned Dexters are in a crisis of numbers i...See More
February 20 at 9:14am · Like · 5
Sheri Palko I think I'm getting old and with that has come a change of priorities about where my energy is spent. I've been on the BOD for at least 5 different breed organizations over the years. We carried a very high personal liability policy just for that r...See More
February 20 at 9:18am · Like · 4
Sheri Palko And I will add... for the record and for those who don't know Judy and I... Judy has been one of the most helpful people I've ever met in the dexter community. Her help and pace in educating has gone above and beyond what most have been willing to do, myself included. I understand where she is coming from. I simply have nothing to genetically contribute.
February 20 at 9:22am · Like · 6
Barbara Netti The gist of Judys post was not only about polled Dexters, she is basically implying that if you Dexters are not dwarfs, than they’re not Dexters “you are making a new breed”. Her comments are quoted below. “What made Dexters, Dexters in the first pla...See More
February 20 at 9:50am · Like · 2
Elias Kyrt Watson I can understand both sides of the coin... #1 I hate the idea of dehorning cattle... No matter how u do it it is a stressful and unpleasant expiriance for both the animal and the ppl involved... So I have always felt about cows/goats/sheep that if u do...See More
February 20 at 10:11am · Like
Judy Sponaugle No I did NOT Netti. That is YOUR spin. People can still retain the dwarf genetics and not risk bulldog calves. They can keep carriers and non carriers and breed them together. There IS however science available that says if you are not careful abo...See More
February 20 at 10:12am · Like · 2
Elias Kyrt Watson To beter clarify my comment some ppl will not own a horned cow so I believe it is better to have the polled genetics than to just dehorn every single member of your herd...
February 20 at 10:13am · Like
Barbara Netti Judy you DID! perhaps you should go and reread what you wrote! I copied and pasted the quote to put on this forum.
February 20 at 10:17am · Like
Judy Sponaugle Sheri, thank you. I think anyone who works with me, no matter what they breed know I respect each and everyone no matter what they raise and I have never told any breeder what to raise or how to raise it. I advocate an informed membership in the bre...See More
February 20 at 10:18am · Like · 4
Hans Peterson Barb, I believe Judy's post was mainly directed at Kirk and others of his ilk. Kirk is an unabashed chondro hater and thinks they should be eradicated and removed from the registry. Though you don't approach it like Kirk, and you say "breed what you ...See More
February 20 at 10:36am · Edited · Like · 5
Barbara Netti Hans, I am just posting what Judy said.
February 20 at 10:30am · Like
Hans Peterson Funny Barb, I didn't see that in Judy's post, I believe these are your words. " The gist of Judys post was not only about polled Dexters, she is basically implying that if you Dexters are not dwarfs, than they’re not Dexters “you are making a new breed”. " So you added your interpretation and input to fit your narrative and cause.
February 20 at 10:33am · Like
Sheri Palko Hans Peterson, you summed up the dilemma very well.
February 20 at 10:37am · Like · 1
Barbara Netti NO Hans I am not, here is a copy of the post. Go to the second paragraph, well apparently paragraphs don't show up. Anyway Making a new breed are HER WORDS.......Darn it Kirk you are being redundant! Yes! Dexters were just organized into a breed i...See More
February 20 at 10:38am · Like
Sheri Palko And... without some constructive acknowledgements from all points of view, this topic will never be resolved. Just agreeing to disagree without being defensive and mud slinging would be a good first step.
February 20 at 10:42am · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Barb, I thought you didn't want to discuss it here. LOL
February 20 at 10:42am · Like · 1
Tanya Michelle We need to stop giving this any energy.
February 20 at 10:43am · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Sometimes it takes making a strong statement to raise awareness. Thanks very much to Dave Morgan for bringing an opportunity for many to learn something new! Knowledge and education are the basis of good decision making. Otherwise the Indians would still own Manhattan, hey!
February 20 at 10:46am · Like · 2
Judy Sponaugle Absolutely Tanya -- - don't let the truth get out!
February 20 at 10:49am · Like
Barbara Netti Please note everyone, as I previously stated. Judy will take facebook threads and put them on her forum. Which she has the right to do. Well she has done it with this thread.
February 20 at 10:49am · Like
Hans Peterson I agree Judy Sponaugle. You read here time to time that Dexter owners wish they would have had some of this information BEFORE they made significant investments in their herd. Many lament that they were given inaccurate information about chondro, pol...See More
February 20 at 10:51am · Edited · Like · 2
Judy Sponaugle By the way Tanya - did you know that FB not only gathers information on your writings and provides them to corporate interests and the government ( although the government is doing it as well) they are also taking your words and building an emotional a...See More
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February 20 at 10:52am · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Midhill Farm I think what Dave brought attention to is what YOU, and a few others think of breeders that don't breed what YOU like, and the venom you spout off about it.
February 20 at 10:52am · Like · 1
Hans Peterson Are you referring to me or Judy Carol?
February 20 at 10:53am · Like · 1
Midhill Farm To Judy.
February 20 at 10:54am · Like
Hans Peterson Ok, because I have a red polled bull too you know. He just happens to be a waist high one.
February 20 at 10:55am · Like · 2
Tanya Michelle The truth according to Judy, is not the truth for me or most other dexter owners. Her actions, her voice, appears to me as a darkness, a desire to separate and be right at all costs. It feels like a desperation bordering on insanity fueled by delusio...See More
February 20 at 11:02am · Like · 2
Midhill Farm I think Tanya summed it up very well. Outta here.
February 20 at 11:07am · Like · 1
Hans Peterson Anybody who breeds dwarf dexters breeds both. We have a registry, one of them being the ADCA. Polled didn't join until long after the chondro and long legged horned Dexters started it to begin with. So you want to join the game late, and then take our ball?
February 20 at 11:11am · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin Wow, Tanya Michelle. Your inappropriate "dark" remarks are not helpful to our discussion and to our association. I won't reply. Enjoy your beautiful day.
February 20 at 11:21am · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Tanya - I've never called you names. I have never cast any aspersions on you personally, or any of the others in this thread who feel like I am open season because I feel so strongly about a breed I adore I want them preserved in their natural state, and I want follks informed so they can make educated choices whatever those choices are.
February 20 at 11:32am · Like · 3
Judy Sponaugle Tanya, the truth I provide is taken from historical documents and records and I also provide the sources. You can believe that truth or you can believe fiction.
February 20 at 11:54am · Like
Luella Malone Now i dont say much but iam gonna Judy Sponaugle has been one of the most helpful people I know on Dexter information she has been attacked called a liar ect from many of you I happen to agree with her and ...See More
February 20 at 12:03pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko Tanya Michelle, regardless of of what it "feels" like to you, Judy is simply trying to preserve genetics. She has never said anything cruel to you that in aware of. Your post was not only cruel and inappropriate, it was not constructive in any way.
THIS is the sort of thing that creates divisiveness.
February 20 at 12:09pm · Edited · Like · 2
Barbara Netti Sheri I understand what you are saying and agree. However is this comment Judy posted in her thread appropriate? Comparing some to Hitler and ISIS?
Isn't there a better way things can be said??? (again quoted) "What YOU advocate and what Y...See MoreFebruary 20 at 12:15pm · Like · 4
Midhill Farm Sheri and Luella, Barb got there before I did. Why are you not condemning Judy for what she says and the way she says it, you both need to read what she wrote, pretty disgusting.
February 20 at 12:17pm · Like · 2
Luella Malone i read it and I know she was taking about genetic losing the old blood lines and have to say I worry about it also once there gone there gone so making it into something else other then genetic is wrong also...
February 20 at 12:22pm · Like
Marion Clements There is a lot of over-the-top stuff on 'that' board and it should stay over there. If any newer folks interested in Dexter cattle have not yet found it, there is a forum for useful discussion and sound info at:http://dextercattle.proboards.com/
Home | Irish Dexter Cattle
Visit our forum at: dextercattle.proboards.com
DEXTERCATTLE.PROBOARDS.COM
February 20 at 12:34pm · Edited · Like · 4
Marion Clements (Wait for the personal attack on me now, people....)
February 20 at 12:35pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko Much of this entire thread is inappropriate. But stirring it till it stinks accomplishes nothing.
February 20 at 12:36pm · Like
Tanya Michelle Sheri Palko, private PM
February 20 at 12:38pm · Like
Lesa Kinnamon Reid GoodnessGRACIOUS! And now . . . everyone on a Board of Directors has their own agenda and there is little to no transparency by any board? Whew! I am a member of your ADCA board of Directors. Your new Region 8 Director. I am transparent. I am ethical. ...See More
February 20 at 2:06pm · Like · 6
Joel Dowty I thought the original statement was really more about outcrossing than chondro vs non, & I've known we've owned mongrels according to Judy for awhile now. It raises my temperature occasionally when I read something new about it, but then I take a brea...See More
February 20 at 2:32pm · Like · 5
Sheri Palko Oh Lesa, I believe you took too many comments above way too personally. Please take the time to reread for clarification. First, they were general comments about past boards I've served on, second as a brand new director obviously none of the comments, even if they were in the present, could have pertained to you. They were generalities as to reasons for lack of enthusiasm for breed organizations.
February 20 at 2:57pm · Like
Sally Coad This has been going on for years. Yes, Education is the key. We tell everyone who comes to our farm, or who asks, that WE feel the polled genetics and perhaps even the color genetics of some of our cattle come from the European upgrade program allowed ...See More
February 20 at 2:59pm · Like · 10
Joel Dowty & for the record I enjoy dealing with Judy very much. She's always been honest & helpful, & I'd go to her farm any chance I could & give a big ole hug to her & any of her dwarf dexters that would let me, & she or anyone else for that matter is welcome to do the same at mine.
February 20 at 2:59pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson Frankly Lesa Kinnamon Reid, it's nice to see some new faces showing up in the ADCA leadership, it needs to happen more often. I sure don't have the temperament for it though!
February 20 at 3:00pm · Like · 4
Lesa Kinnamon Reid Sally Coad ... Yep. Sheri Palko ... just clarifying that "all boards" doesn't apply to our board
February 20 at 4:51pm · Like
Karrie Winebrenner There is a wonderful video of the Grinstead Herd on here somewhere. One of the premiere historical Dexter Herds. This is one of my favorite videos and I highly recommend it. Watch it, and see what conclusions you draw for yourself.
February 20 at 5:25pm · Like · 2
Marion Clements Yes, mostly all dwarfs, they got rid of the non dwarfs back then. You cannot have a true-breeding herd of dwarfs.
February 20 at 5:28pm · Like · 2
Gary Gustafson Kudos to Sally, love the variety.
February 20 at 9:10pm · Like · 2
Elizabeth Kiepe Ridings Thank You Sally and Lesa.
February 20 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
Dave Morgan I want to apologize for bringing the hateful rant from another board to this group. It was a mistake. It has served no purpose other than to renew rancor within our community and waste a lot your time. I was angry, and from now on that will be my queue to turn off the computer and count to ten. Again, sorry, I hate thinking about all the emotional energy that was wasted today.
February 20 at 10:52pm · Like · 4
Barbara Netti Dave, I understand where you’re coming from. I tried putting a squash on the thread after you mentioned it. Only to wake up the a.m. with 24 unread responses. So much for trying to stop things before they begin. Than of coarse what happens I get entrenched in the conversation. So instead of counting to 10, I’m going to follow what a past Dexter breeder used to say “going to go outside and sit on the porch.”
February 20 at 11:29pm · Like · 1
Louise Ball Dave Morgan, that is very big of you to apologise. I for one can understand your anger and why you responded that way, but it just gives more fuel to the fire. Now go and have a great day with your Dexters and family and forget about it all, there are far greater important things in the world than the bun fight.
Yesterday at 1:27am · Like · 2
Shannon Roberts Berrios Ok, color me clueless, but why is it necessary for any breeder to tell another that their breeding program is wrong? Breeding is about choices and selecting prefered traits. As long as we stay within the guidelines of the registry then we are not wro...See More
Yesterday at 3:38am · Like · 5
Hans Peterson Shannon Roberts Berrios, we personally have a number of dwarf Dexters and prefer this type over the non dwarf, like a number of others on here, so you know my position up front. However, I can point to many instances in other Dexter boards where a ver...See More
Yesterday at 8:30am · Like · 1
Shannon Roberts Berrios I didn't actually read through every post because, well, it got tiresome. I can't say who started the nastiness, but looks like both sides chipped in their fair share. I'm a fairly new breeder, and because I didn't fully educate myself at the onset, ...See More
Yesterday at 9:01am · Like · 3
Gary Gustafson Agree totally with Shannon, the ranters should stay on the pro boards, our experiences become our opinions,but that don't make them right, certainly not for everyone. Which is why I quite following the pro boards, mostly rants and little info.
Yesterday at 9:32am · Like · 2
Hans Peterson Gary, you hit the nail on the head with the statement, "our experiences become our opinions." Many who have extensive experience and opinions based on those extensive experiences are frustrated by those who have NO experience giving contradictory "expert opinions" and spouting "facts" based on hearsay.
Yesterday at 10:02am · Like
Shannon Roberts Berrios The thing you have to keep in the back of your mind is that the other person may be just as passionate as you in their opposite opinion. In that case, you will never change their mind. The other possibility is that they are a troll, and are only tryi...See More
Yesterday at 10:21am · Like · 2
Gary Gustafson Shannon, love your approach, Hans, I agree, but more experience only increases your chances of being correct, does not guarantee it. I live in the Great Lakes snow belt as you do, last winter I watched my chondro calves struggle getting thru the deep snow and didn't want to plow trails all winter, so that's my reason for going to non carriers. Right or wrong in others eyes shouldn't matter.
Yesterday at 10:42am · Like · 2
Marion Clements I have pretty much the same temperatures as Hans and we've had a ton of snow sometimes mixed with freezing drizzle. My non-dwarf cows do just fine.
Yesterday at 11:00am · Like
Susan Albritton Hans Peterson I love chondros. Steve and I have two and thinking about getting another. Also love Shamrock Mike. He is one of my favorite bulls. But I also love polled dun animals. And often the same ugliness you experience with your chondro animals Is...See More
Yesterday at 11:02am · Like · 3
Hans Peterson Gary our non chondro dexters simply walked over our (normally)48" high fences last winter because of packed snow depth The chondros stayed put. Just this morning our non carrier bull went over one because of the snow.
Yesterday at 11:21am · Like
Joel Dowty Hans, you who so adamantly argue your points so well all the time, don't have anything to say regarding the comments questioning your honor? Trading on the dexter name? Won't you & I both be part of the new breed that is being advocated? You've got that pesky MH designation running pretty rampant back there. What shall we name them?
Yesterday at 11:37am · Like
Karrie Winebrenner Hello, It would be so wonderful if we (as a breed) could look at this issue unemotionally; leaving our personal feelings behind and concentrate on the situation as it is. (I believe most of you know I am a traditional breeder, but we all need to try)...See More
Yesterday at 12:41pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson Joel, I think Judy's designations are very fair and accurate for the Dexter breed and truly reflect the status of the individual animals based on the pedigree. I wish it was used by the ADCA. I'm not suggesting that they be removed from the registry,...See More
Yesterday at 1:05pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson We breed all types here, and I'm careful to try to be respectful of the history and pedigrees of all of our Dexters, sometimes at a great effort. It's not easy feeding several different groups all year long. Just today a "modern horned" red non carri...See More
Yesterday at 1:13pm · Like · 1
Shannon Roberts Berrios See, that's why I don't believe in snow...I think it's a horrible, horrible thing and should be outlawed!
23 hrs · Like · 3
Hans Peterson People go to great lengths to see that species of insects and fish and birds don't go extinct. Artifacts of historical importance to us are restored and cherished. There are Dexter breeders who fear that Dexter, in their original form, are headed for...See More
22 hrs · Like · 2
Gary Gustafson Hans, you're using a new term to me, what is a modern horned ? Only heard of polled or horned! Thanks
22 hrs · Like
Sheri Palko The traditional horned do not go back to any polled animals. A modern horned has polled in its pedigree.
22 hrs · Like · 1
Gary Gustafson Thanks Sheri.
22 hrs · Like
Midhill Farm Gary you are right, you've either got horned or polled. The Legacy people invented all those terms to call their animals. They signify which sub group your animals may belong to.
21 hrs · Like · 2
Sally Coad The terms Modern and Traditional are not terms used by the ADCA or PDCA - they are terms that Legacy coined for them.
21 hrs · Like · 2
Sally Coad OOPS.., sorry I see Midhill Farm just answered that
21 hrs · Like · 1
Marion Clements IMO the sub-groups are genetic nonsense and just general nonsense and invented by one person.
21 hrs · Like · 2
Donna Jenkins Judy, I am so sick and tired of reading your rant and raves about us who choose to raise RED POLLED Dexters....And I don't appreciate your name calling either!......Why can't you just breed whatever the _ _ _ _ YOU want to breed and let us breed what W...See More
21 hrs · Like · 1
Mary Jane Phifer We raise both chondro negative and chondro positive Dexters and love them all, but as I consider the appearance of polled Dexters in just 25 years as a "recent phenomenon," we do call our horned cattle "traditional" in the sense that Dexters back 125 yrs ago were all horned. The polled factor is "modern" in comparison. Judy Sponaugle, folks is gonna do what folks is gonna do. I do enjoy your insights and admire your Legacy work. Readers can take it or leave it. However I always am worried about the "Westminster Effect" when something becomes popular to the point that inferior animals might be bred in order to keep up with what is "hot" in the market.
20 hrs · Like · 4
Luella Malone here here Mary Jane Phifer
20 hrs · Like
Mike Mendenhall Dave, you write a very fake apology. You are not sorry for starting this? the only thing you are sorry is that it didnt turn into the judy bashing you had hoped for. yes you did accomplish some of that but there is also some good discussion on here. Judy has helped so many dexter owners and has many friends and supporters.
20 hrs · Like · 1
Barbara Netti Mike Mendenhall NO one has said Judy never helped anyone. There are MANY on this thread who have spoken out who have helped or who mentor people. With that being said did you read Judys post? Were you not offended in some of the things she said? I was and I know quite a few other people were also. There are ways to get your point across. For Judy if she doesn't feel that she's being heard she goes for the "shock and aw" approach. Just my 2 cents
19 hrs · Like · 3
Gary Gustafson Wow, folks, I honestly didn't know what MH stood for so I ask, what I thought was a simple question and it got answered. No reason for ten assault messages to follow, this looking like the pro board I left a year ago.
Sent from my iPad
19 hrs · Like · 1
Shannon Roberts Berrios I was going to repeat myself about people acting like adults, but then I saw a titmouse land on the electric pole in the yard. So I watched it for a few seconds, and then I didn't care anymore...Lol!
19 hrs · Like · 2
Donna Jenkins AMEN Shannon!
18 hrs · Like · 2
Donna Jenkins Mary Jane, Are you saying that we polled breeders are breeding "INFERIOR" animals just to keep up with what is hot?.....I sure don't know about anyone else, But I sure am not...The fact that I raise polled red animals does not mean I am breeding" inferior " I do not and will not EVER go outside the Dextercattle to breed my animals...They will ALWAYS be Dexters..I would never intentionally buy anyDexters that were out crossed either....If I knew, I wouldn't buy them...
18 hrs · Like
Dennis Salyers We should start a Dexter Church, We could have conservatives, liberals, radicals heck we could even have snake handlers. My point is I love my Dexters and I think very highly of a lot of people in this discussion. Come to my farm and you will see all types of these little cows polled, horned, pha short leg long leg. ect there is something for everyone in this breed and nothing any of us can say or do is going to change that. We know this and yet we continue to have these spirited discussion. A many of good churches have been split over such discussions. My favorite most of you know are red short legs but that is not what I get calls for, so I have to breed to the market. I have no ideal what these cows where 125 years ago I just know what they are today, so there for I am going to continue to breed to the market and hopefully continue to as most of you do improve the breed as a whole.
18 hrs · Like · 4
Donna Jenkins Thank you Dennis...
17 hrs · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin After carefully reading all of the comments and considering all the passion displayed, I think it is clear that ADCA as an organization is deeply divided and conflicted. Is there a way forward so that both sides feel that their concerns are addressed b...See More
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 4
Barbara Netti Margaret Rawlings pretty much summed it up my feelings Yesterday at 4:27am with her comment “I cannot understand how breeders anywhere other than Au can carry on about purity of Dexters, there was no DNA testing or Parent Verification until very recently. Polled Dexters have a place in the marketplace I say build a bridge and get over it!! Thank you Marg.
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
Michael Foor-Pessin Barbara, What does"build a bridge" actually mean?
16 hrs · Like
Cassandra Coleman Mennone So are they going to dig up ALL the bones of the original Dexters and parent verify their stock back to the 1200's or whenever they honestly THINK the breed became a breed and that NO neighbors bull ever jumped a fence and bred their cow????I understand the want to make it seem one brand of stock is more pure or special but what this is doing is making newbies to the breed think twice about getting involved! What I see as a new owner is if a person loves the dwarfism they are gungho to make that the ONLY true Dexter. If they love horns then that is the ONLY trait they see. What I see looking at OLD pedigrees is the same thing I see when looking at OLDLINE Arabian horses. INBREEDING! LOTS of it! and then you see a line of all black cattle that suddenly have a red pop up out of nowhere. Sorry but to get red there has to be a red gene there somewhere and that means one of those inbred cows or bulls or both are not who they seem. There was a red bull in the hay pile! Why not move forward with the breed with what we have now! Require them to all be PV and DNAed for all the heritable diseases! If you love polled and the cow are bull fits the size requirement(which there should be a required height check at 3-4 years to prove they are not above the standard. I see bulls that are NOT small! If they are well over 4' at hip then they are not truly a SMALL cow/bull. I do not care what their lines say at that point they should NOT be allowed to breed and register offspring.If a cow they should be bred only to small bulls and if a bull then freezer camp! What I mostly want to see is the venomous infighting within the gorgeous fun breed to STOP! YOU PEOPLE are hurting the very breed you claim to LOVE!
16 hrs · Like
Dave Morgan Sorry you feel that way Mike. I have used Judy's services in the past for testing and had great experiences. I admire her dedication to and passion for preserving what she views as the ideal Dexter. What bothered me, is the language she used to denigrate people who have another view of the ideal Dexter. There is no excuse for it. The person who was discussing alternatives to using the Chondro gene is persistent, but always respectful, just as most people on this group are. My mistake was trying to shine a light on something that should have been left in a dark corner. Won't happen again.
16 hrs · Like · 1
Barbara Netti Michael, you can not take part of a phrase and get the meaning.
15 hrs · Edited · Like
Shannon Roberts Berrios Barbara Netti, while I got what you meant, the typo made me chuckle!
15 hrs · Like · 1
Barbara Netti HA HA, thank you Shannon Roberts Berrios it's been corrected.
15 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin Barbara, I read her entire quote. Her point isn't clear. Her tone is contradictory. "Building a bridge" suggests positive compromise; "Get over it" has just the opposite connotation.
15 hrs · Like
Barbara Netti Michael, you are being to technical. It is one idiom not two. "get over it" can mean. "Don't concern yourself with something that's already in the past; accept it and move on to more productive pursuits". There are several meanings. This is how I took it and is why I said that she summed up my feelings.
14 hrs · Edited · Like
Donna Jenkins Joel Dowty, what does the MH stand for?
14 hrs · Like
Louise Ball "build a bridge" is a colloquial term we use in Australia, it signifies getting over "the river", the "river" being whatever is upsetting you and you are carrying on about, it means "get over it and get on with it". Another term would be that you are all getting "your knickers in a knot", in other words carrying on and getting in a tizz about something insignificant.
We would tell some one to"go bulid a bridge".
13 hrs · Like · 2
Louise Ball You obviously don't have "build a bridge" as a colloquial term in the US.
13 hrs · Like
Joel Dowty Donna, the legacy registry designates cattle as legacy, traditional horned, modern horned (MH), & polled. I think that's all the categories. The designation the animal receives is determined by the bloodlines.
11 hrs · Like
Hans Peterson It seems to me the comment of build a bridge and get over it is directed at those who wish to keep some semblance of the Dexter identity and history intact, that they should just give up and deal with it A one way bridge so to speak. Food for thoug...See More
7 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
Hans Peterson To add a bit, I thank Steve LeGrand and Chis Ricard for the use of the beautiful horned Dexter at the top of this page. Click on that photo and look at the comments. I think that tells a story as well.
7 hrs · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin Thanks Hans. You understand the true tone of the colloquial term used here and capture my feelings. My ADCA number is 479. I have been raising Dexters for decades. As a member I was NEVER given the opportunity to vote on whether to accept polled animals into the registry. There are others in the association that know the deatils, but for me the whole affair was shrouded in mystery. Not allowing an open and informed discussion and a vote by the membership is, for me, the core of this issue. I harbor no ill feeloings toward any member who has registered polled dexters since then because you were following the new guidelines. I don't believe that ADCA as an organization has honestly and openly addressed this issue. Those of you who just want me to "build a bridge and get over it" should ask yourselves this question: What if the Board of ADCA, in the near future, decided to change the requirements again, this time excluding polled animals. No vote from the membership, just the Board. How would you feel? How hard would it be for you to "build that bridge"?
6 hrs · Like · 2
Mary Jane Phifer Donna Jenkins I did not say you or any other Dexter breeder was indeed breeding inferior animals to keep up with what was popular. In another couple years there will be so many reds that who knows? Maybe blacks and duns who carry no red will be all the rage? Ha!
6 hrs · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin That isn't the issue. The issue was the injustice done by the association that has not been sufficiently addressed. I believe that if the association is to truly embrace the diversity of what is now the dexter some changes need to be made, so that al...See More
5 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
Midhill Farm I'm thinking the ADCA don't have a problem, some of the members of the ADCA have some issues. However most of the people that have the issues with polled joined the ADCA knowing full well that they allowed polled animals. You may be an exception to that being a long standing member.
6 hrs · Like · 1
Hans Peterson At this time, there are only 4 traditional red Dexter cows in the U.S. Do we care about this? Does it alarm anyone?
5 hrs · Like · 1
Mary Jane Phifer It is what it is now; water under the bridge. Dexters come in enough colors, shapes, and now sizes to be attractive to just about anyone to suit their particular purpose, or multipurpose. Judy Sponaugle is working to keep the new and old lines from b...See More
5 hrs · Like · 3
Midhill Farm Hans, you are putting these animals in sub groups again, most of us don't. To most of us there are plenty of red horned animals about.
5 hrs · Like · 2
Luella Malone Many long time members should be the exception and there are many ...
5 hrs · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin Mary Jane and Midhill. Neither of you will acknowledge the injustice done in the past.Why not? Was it okay to make such a change without a rank and file vote? I personally would feel much better if ADCA took some responsibility for its actions in the past and admit that a mistake was made. Then, moving forward would be the next healthy step..
5 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
Mary Jane Phifer It cannot be undone- nothing will change that or make it better. What we can do is this; move forward- agree to promote our cattle, genotype the offspring, cull out inferior animals, and educate the new buyer.
5 hrs · Like
Hans Peterson Midhill Farms, perhaps there are only 4 traditional red Dexter cows out there precisely because "most of us don't put them into subgroups."
5 hrs · Like
Sheri Palko One of the long standing challenges BOD members have had is getting information to its members. The assumption over the last 10 years has been more sharing of information to the general membership due to social media. Instead two things have unexpectedly happened, with the ADCA and every other breed organization I'm a member of. First, the BOD feels that sharing every topic in detail is something the membership doesn't care about and/or is simply too much detail to bother sharing, and second there have been way too many outlets for communication on social media, that the membership has no way of knowing where the relevant information lies, and the "Web page" for each organization does not contain all of the information, nor should it.
So... the only solution we've found that works... someone "in the know" (usually a BOD member) needs to be willing to maintain a less public but easily accessible information center. This is tough because it's time consuming and those willing to dedicate their time are ineffective because they are not "in the know" and those in the know are already strung thin with their BOD duties (a few do the work while the majority complain so the work is always inadequate). Divisiveness among BOD members makes accomplishing anything productive even more of a challenge.
Distribution of this information should not be on the main club Web page because no club wants to air all their laundry. Establishing non public fb pages (or massive email lists but those are more labor intensive) is a good way too keep the membership informed. A place where all BOD meetings and even conversations, budgets, reports, etc, can be posted for those to keep up with what's going on. Newsletters are not effective for this kind of regular communication, they are too infrequent and frequently lack substance.
The way I see it is that those of us in this discussion are just a small part of the general membership. Most people (myself included) don't read all posts on forums like this. Frankly we don't care to read rants and bitching. Most dexter owners lack the knowledge to even test and register and much of that info is way too mysterious. A place to go for info, facts, and current issues with NO bitching which is closely monitored to avoid crap getting out of hand like this is what is called for. All BOD meetings and conversations should be scheduled week in advance and the general membership invited to listen.
The key to this club moving forward, not loosing members, and gaining new members, is establishing excellent communication options.
5 hrs · Like · 2
Sheri Palko I'm now unsubscribing to this thread because it is taking too much of my feed and is non productive. If the adca jumps up and takes the bull by the horns and decides to be proactive I'll consider rejoining the ADCA. I have waiting to submit my 2015 membership until after the annual meeting to simply see how things evolve. The older I get, the less time I am wrong to spend wading through crap to get the answers I want.
5 hrs · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin Mary Jane. Your ideas about the future are solid--I agree. What about Hans' suggestion? What is wrong with creating subgroups so that a potential buyer knows the genetic history of an animal? Let's put all of this genotyping to good use. To a long-time member like me the association needs to admit its mistake publicly. What was done was unfair, and words like "We are sorry." matter.
5 hrs · Like · 3
Mary Jane Phifer Sheri Palko, hang in there. The ADCA does need your input as do we all.
5 hrs · Like · 2
Hans Peterson so, because there are plenty of red modern horned Dexters out there, it's OK to have one of the three colors of our traditional Dexters become completely extinct? The grouping that Legacy created is NOT to determine what Dexters are good, bad, and bes...See More
5 hrs · Like · 4
Hans Peterson I don't love my modern horned Dexters any more or less than my traditional Dexters. I just see my traditional Dexters as a subgroup that needs to be preserved and I take a lot of pride in doing so.
5 hrs · Like · 2
Hans Peterson (Hans' wife, Sheril here) The subgroups are already out there, whether people subscribe or not. Knowing Judy, I don't think she and Legacy are going anywhere. So the question is, do you inform your buyers? And if not, how will they respond when they find out?
5 hrs · Like · 2
Luella Malone Here Here Mrs Hans Peterson
4 hrs · Like
Shaun Ann Lord Michael Foor-Pessin is correct........the early deceit and manipulation needs to be acknowledge by the ADCA and apologized for. Despite what Carol maintains, the Board at the time of polled introduction could no way allow the membership to vote for or ...See More
4 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
Midhill Farm Shaun, I don't know what you think I keep maintaining but none of us are responsible for what happened twenty years ago, we just aren't, BUT we are punished for it verbally by the likes of you and Judy, but it is what it is. If you guys feel you want an appology then you should all contact the Board and work with them on it.
4 hrs · Like · 1
Midhill Farm Hans, your red dexters are no different than other red dexters to us. There are only two sorts of red. If you want to put animals in sub groups over at Legacy go at it, most of us don't care, but don't force us to. Legacy is one persons creation, no Board of directors, not recognised by the ADCA. I just don't mind what you do over there, and find it surprising that you all mind what we do.
4 hrs · Like · 1
Shaun Ann Lord No, Carol, I have not participated in the name calling, saying ' polled pushers' in the past' isn't name calling. Don't lump me with Judy's choice of words in this thread. I've tried in the above post to explain the reason traditionalists are upset. Twenty years ago is not ancient history, we obviously are all involved with the repercussions today.
4 hrs · Edited · Like
Midhill Farm Hi Sheril, yes the sub groups are out there, but only in Legacy, the ADCA don't have them. Who knows they may catch on, but I support MY breed organisation and follow their rules not Legacys.
4 hrs · Like · 1
Midhill Farm Shaun, excuse me but didn't you once say on FB that "all polled breeders were bad breeders"? That's offensive to some, just as much as what Judy wrote.
4 hrs · Like
Michael Foor-Pessin As a association we are ALL responsible for what our association does--in the past and in the future. I understand you were not on the Board at the time, but any governing body of an organization is held accountable by the membership to all deciisions. We live in a democracy. I will approach the Board about this, but all members of the association should seek this justice. If injustice could happen to we old-time breeders, it can and will happen again. If all of us on both sides of the issue demand the ADCA to set the record straight the entire breed benefits. Midhill Farm and others who breed polled dexters, I am asking you to help me build a new bridge for ADCA. one that allows traffic to move in both directions.
4 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
Hans Peterson The groups or classes that Legacy has developed are not designed to be discriminatory in any way. They are designed to be informational, allowing breeders to select for their preferred type of Dexter without having to wade through pedigrees to find if there was an ancestor in there that was out of English upgraded lines.
4 hrs · Like · 1
Shaun Ann Lord Never said bad breeders. I have stated that in the haste to jump on the financial bandwagon poor examples of red polled are offered as breeding sires ( in particular) and still think that . You and I have discussed that messaging. Don't twist this.
4 hrs · Like · 1
Hans Peterson Sort of like CarFax for Dexters (Sheril's idea)
4 hrs · Like
Hans Peterson Maybe if Judy had called it CowFax it would gain more acceptance
4 hrs · Like · 2
Patti Adams His Mom Served Burnt toast , but he was shocked when his Dad said this. “When I was about eight or nine, my mom burnt some toast . One night that stood out in my mind is when she had made dinner for us after a very long and rough day at work, She placed a plate of jam and extremely burned toast in front of my dad. Not slightly burnt but completely blackened toast. I was just waiting to see if anyone noticed the burnt toast and say anything. But Dad just ate his toast and asked me if I did my homework and how my day was. I don’t remember what I told him that night, but I do remember hearing my mom apologizing to dad for burning the toast. And I’ll never forget what he said: “Sweetie, I love burned toast.” Later that night, I went to tell my dad good night and ask him if he really liked his toast burned. He put his arm on my shoulder and said, “Your momma put in a very long day at work today and she was very tired. And besides, A burnt toast never hurts anyone but you know what does? Harsh words!” The he continued to say “You know, life is full of imperfect things and imperfect people I’m not the best at hardly anything, and I forget birthdays and anniversaries just like every other human. What I’ve learned over the years, is that learning to accept each others faults and choosing to celebrate each other’s differences, is one of the most important keys for creating a healthy, growing, and lasting relationship. Life is too short to wake up with regrets. Love the people who treat you right and have compassion for the ones who don’t.” Enjoy Life Now.
4 hrs · Like · 5
Hans Peterson This is right off of the Legacy site (Judy) regarding testing for polled. Explain how this is a knock by Judy on polled Dexters... and why she deserves the ire some polled breeders have toward her.
Introduction...See More
4 hrs · Like · 1
Hans Peterson Some background on polled to add to Shaun Ann Lord and her post above. For those of you who would like a better understanding. www.thomasdexters.com/index.asp?ID=72
Thomas' Dexters
Addition of Polled semen to the ADCA from England: AGM July 17, 1993 - White River Junction, VermontOfficers:...
THOMASDEXTERS.COM
4 hrs · Like · 1
Shaun Ann Lord Have to laugh at my above post on name calling......yes, polled pushers is name calling but certainly not individual on individual. It's a generalization of those who actively participated in the pyramid scheme. Common terminology amongst us traditionalists.
3 hrs · Like
Hans Peterson Midhill Farms, but the question is, if informed, would your buyers care about the Legacy categories? Some people want Dexters because they are a heritage breed. Do these people deserve to know about Legacy? You've been on the record demanding that buyers receive full disclosure about chondrodysplasia and that all animals from chondro herds be genetically tested. Don't buyers also deserve full disclosure about the known upgrades in the pedigrees of Dexters they are purchasing?
3 hrs · Like · 1
Michael Foor-Pessin Thanks Hans for the history. Reading the actual minutes of the meetings is so enlightening. All members of the association should be concerned about such behavior. At the next Board meeting of ADCA, I wouuld like the curent Board to publicly distance itself from such egregous behavior and actively work toward saving our association from all of the confusion and in fighting. I am going to write the Board myself and make such a request. I would like others to do so as well.
3 hrs · Like
Shaun Ann Lord If other American institutions are not above apologizing for past bad behavior the ADCA shouldn't be either. I do think an apology for mishandling the introduction of polled genetics will go a long way towards healing the two decades of bitterness. Then through leadership reach out to both camps for compromise avoiding another twenty years of this issue.
3 hrs · Like · 1
Midhill Farm Hans, I think all the info new people could ever want about Dexters is out there. The question is, do they do enough research?
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone So are all the animals that will be considered legacy or the like be tested genetically against all the other genotyped breeds to prove that they carry no angus, shorthorn,jersey or other lines?
I know many people think their animals are pure. I also know I have run into many that when the DNAed the animals they did not match the parents on the papers... So how can you HONESTLY tell me that NO mistakes were made 20-30-50-100-150-200 years ago??? SERIOUSLY! We have a breed that should NOW be called American Dexter Cattle. We have been breeding for the traits we consider important and value! If you close the books now and say all must be PV then what you will have is a BREED that is bred only from those animals that are PV to the existing herd! I understand promoting the older lines but if it makes the breed and registry weak and seeming to have petty people you will not attract new breeder/owners. What made me fall in love with these small cows 20+ years ago and dream of owning them was not a damn piece of paper! It was a cow calf pair presented at the HLSR in Houston. It was a lady I met who LOVED her little cow! She talked about them with same type love I have for my oldline Arab and talked of making the breed truly great here. She said they were dual purpose and great for small farms and hobby cheese makers. She did not stand out in the isle bashing her neighbors red cow because she had a black horned cow with a dun calf. If I had seen that do you honestly think I would have wanted to get involved??? Why do you think many want their cows unregistered? It is not just price it is simply put why get into the breeding debate. I for one am not a fan of the shorties. A genetic fault should be bred out... but this is my opinion and many LOVE their shorties and breed for them. They are not wrong. For them the Shorties are what they love just like many adore polled! I have ONE polled goat of Boer breeding. I would not register her offspring as Nubian but I love that I do not have to burn the horns off my babies. I would love to add the polled gene to my herd of small cows for the same reason. I love the horns. They are so cute until they shake their head and me in a rib or the arm. So for me NOT having to burn,acid burn or surgically remove the horns would be a plus. And yes I realize that was a trait added. It is now accepted and bred for so instead of calling them IRISH(we are not in Ireland) Dexters lets call them American Dexters. If you want to have bloodline designation please do it in a way that is not derogatory to any breeders lines because remember what you love may be the same trait someone else hates. EACH breeder breeds for what THEY consider a perfect Dexter(Nubian,Nigerian Dwarf, Angus,ETC ETC!) Let all start forward to make this breed the BEST it can be not tear the registry apart and break all the cattle up into smaller registries that hate each other. If all the fighting continues many like me will simply STOP registering our cows... I will keep mine for my own use and sell the calves without papers and warn buyers off from dealing with the insanity. It is not a GOOD thing! I love my cows I am growing to HATE what I see within the group of breeders!3 hrs · Like · 1
Midhill Farm Shaun, if I come across that post I will message it to you, but certainly not trying to twist anything.
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Midhill Farm we can all argue until we are blue in the face, we have in the past, it gets us nowhere fast. The whole point from the OP was the diatribe from one person.
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Tanya Michelle Thank You Cassandra Coleman Mennone, RIGHT ON! ^ Like, Like, Like…….
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Bob Wellington Every bred of cattle (pig, goat, sheep,dog, cat rabbit, etc) (even happens in wild populations) has this happen! good god it's natural selection! Man just manipulates it. Give it a rest for gods sake!
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone Yes basically one person but it is on EVERY Dexter and cow board I go to! Trust me if the first things you see on any given board is VENOM you will go another way! I am glad I got my cows before I started reading all this or I would have bought Zebu!
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Hans Peterson So, Midhill Farms, by your statement, "Hans, I think all the info new people could ever want about Dexters is out there. The question is, do they do enough research?
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Hans Peterson are you saying that "buyer beware" with Legacy and peidgrees and upgrades, but anyone who breeds chondro needs to have contracts signed in blood saying that they informed their buyer that they have a chondro carrier on the farm?
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Pete Harper I'm new to Dexters and can see the passon on both sides of the argument. I thought I would comment on the tthread of breed education from a newbies perspective. Now days with the internet you would have to live in a cave not know about the controversy of polled vs non-polled dexters. Just google Dexters and you'll find hundreds of resources out there. Education is not an issue. The information is out there. Threads like this only serve to shed a negative light on the breed. Nobody likes to see bickering.
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone I think all breeders should be willing to talk to their buyers about the pros and cons of Chondros. I did all sorts of research asap when I got my girls because ALL breeds have their genetic weaknesses, things you need to know to avoid pitfalls and problems. So the first thing I did was type in Genetic faults of Dexter cattle in Google. Then Genetic testing. I have done the same research for my Arabian horses, my Nubian goats and we breed a herd of MIXED breed hair sheep that I keep breeding info on so we do not keep super inbred ewes. I consider that I need to be an informed breeder. I also read the standards and try to follow what they say the breed should be. BUT that said what I see is many who will willingly breed two chondros and I have to honestly wonder WHY?
Why take the chance when you have the info in your hands to avoid that heartbreak? I do not see how having dead calves even once in a while is good for a breeder or breed? JMO.2 hrs · Like
Hans Peterson Pete, I breed both polled and modern horned and traditional Dexters. I love them all. But the traditional lines of Dexters are becoming rare. I think buyers deserve to know that there are different classifications of Dexters based on the KNOWN upgrades in their pedigrees. To find out about such classifications AFTER purchasing is not fair to the buyer.
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Pete Harper For me personally, I did my homework before purchsing our first Dexters. For our small backyard operation I could see the advantages of raising polled stock. I remember as a kid helping my uncle dehorn calves. Not something I wanted to do if there was a better alternative. Next I looked at color. OK purely athetics for sure. But if you are going to raise cattle why not have something enjoyable. In our area Angus are the breed of choice. A black polled dexter looks too much like an Angus. I decided to go with red Dexters.
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone I love black... My mom wants dun and red. So I have my blacks and we are going to get her a red or dun polled heifer. or dehorned? But she wans the colour and that is just fine... But to me the gleaming black is just breathtaking!!!!
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Pete Harper Finally to put this all in prespective. On your dinner plate does it really matter polled vs non-polled, registered vs non-registered, black, red or dun.
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Midhill Farm Here ya go Shaun, someone told me when the post was. February 11, 2012 at 11:51am · Like .. Shaun Ann Lord I do regard polled breeders as bad breeders, never made a secret of that, and I'm not the only one. This disagreement is going nowhere.......you champion polled and I will continue to discredit it. The birth of seventy pound calves goes a long ways towards that discrediting. The three I mentioned it to were floored.......can't believe it and want nothing to do with polled in general. I had Lucifer genetics (Postal Patron) and did not have big calves, the only big calf was one of Lochinvars, he also had the smallest calf born here, less than twenty five pounds. Sorry the issue has come to this. February 11, 2012 at 1:15pm · Like
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Karrie Winebrenner Just a heartfelt comment --- In my community, the phrase "to build a bridge" has a strong meaning........ It is used when 2 different groups/individuals are at complete odds with one another. The lines have been drawn, sides are taken, and all is ready........ One would "build a bridge" - stop, reach out to the other in friendship and hope - looking to mend the relationship. It is always the hope that the other side meets at the bridge or better yet begins to build their own with the hopes of meeting together....... Just a thought?
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Pete Harper I applaude the efforts of the Legacy breeders, your efforts are admirable. The world is a big tent, there is plenty of room for everyone; Legacy, PDCA, and ADCA.
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Ruth Schihl With all the information that is out there, it can be quite confusing to the new prospective buyer. It would be much easier IF the ADCA followed the guideline of BOTH parents having to be registered before they could register any baby. And they would have to have their DNA on file for matching. Then the buyers would have no question of what they are purchasing. The Thoroughbred industry and the Friesian Horse Industry are top notch at this. There are "sub" registries for those who are not "100%" of their breed. Then everybody could be happy for the type of herd they are wanting.
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Midhill Farm Hans, Polled animals are classified on the online pedigree, but Chondro carriers are only classified if the owner tests and reports. So yes you bet buyers should beware!
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Hans Peterson Karrie Winebrenner (Sheril here). I applaud your words. I am off on vacation this week and thought it would be fun to be involved a bit in the "Dexter Cattle Enthusiast" page. When I wrote that there were only 4 red traditional Dexter cows left in the U.S, I thought the page would light up with concerned "Dexter Enthusiasts" being alarmed at the thought of having a historical part of the breed that they "love" so close to extinction... the posts that followed really disappointed me. So many breeders who basically said, "who cares?" It'd be like people from the audubon society not caring if there were only 4 Bald Eagles left in the U.S. and saying, "there are other Eagles out there; what difference does it make if they have a white head and tail?" Hans says that you are always working to try to bring people together. Keep up the good fight...
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Michael Foor-Pessin Karrie, You are absolutely right about buiding bridges. That's why I would like you to help me and others of a like mind ON BOTH SIDES of the issue to write to the Board and insist that they distance themselves from the 1993 decision that has led to this mess. Let's all sit down, use the new science of DNA, and come up with classifications that are relaible and clear to new buyers. We can not expect the new buyer to dig through all this material, not when we as a association have the means to provide this information for them.
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Joel Dowty Frankly, i think if I was someone looking to get into cattle, & had decided that this small breed of cattle was what I needed, & I visited a farm with all "types" of dexters like say yours, Hans, I doubt I'd buy them. I can imagine how it could go..."so there are legacy dexters which are horned & really rare, traditional dexters which are horned & quite rare, modern horned of which there are quite a few out there, & polled which are abundant, right? But the modern horned can descend from an animal that introduced polled to the registry, but can also descend from completely different animals, right? & I can't tell one MH from another MH from a TH, but it does matter, right?"
By the time we got around to pha & chondro, I'd be ready to go find a different breed or go somewhere that had less expensive grade animals with the traits I desired, rather then pay for registered stock. I had a conversation with a gentleman the other day looking for heifers. He couldn't find anyone close & went out of state for unregistered dexters. He didn't even know there were 2 assns., much less 4 different subgroups & a couple genetic issues to worry about. More power to those that can explain all this to someone looking for cattle & still convince them this is the breed they should go with. Please don't take this to mean that I'm advocating a misinformed buyer. I just don't see it helping the breed, same as the split. Lost animals will be the result. We're a breed for the small landholder, most of whom won't be willing to wade through it all.
I contacted someone fairly near to me recently that I learned had a passion for dexters. We emailed a bit, & after he checked out my fb page he asked "what type" I raised. I guess you can't tell from pics. When I sent him more info I heard from him no more. I wasn't trying to sell anything, didn't have anything TO sell. Just thought a like-minded dexter lover might like to visit. Nope. I guess my sneeches need stars upon thars
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Cassandra Coleman Mennone Thoroughbred is really tops... We raised racers and I can tell you if the foal does not match who the parents are you do not get papers till you prove the parents. No percentage lass than 100% is allowed to race! Arabian horse as well. I support PV if ...See More
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Ruth Schihl Joel Dowty, you are incorrect. I did visit Hans's farm and that helped me make my decision. I learned so much it is incredible! They have everything for every type of buyer. From one wanting top-notch show animals to the one wanting just an animal to raise for beef. I went personally for the higher quality animals with awesome pedigree's. Looking at it from the resale point of view that I want animals that produce top quality milk A2/A2, good quality beef, not to mention the nice conformation the animals have for future 4-h showing or showing in general.
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Joel Dowty That's awesome Ruth, I'm really glad you had that experience & I'm sure others have as well. I just mean for someone like me.
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Marion Clements Joel Dowty your sneeches comment really does cover it! All this sub-group nonsense has really harmed the breed. But...I guess it makes some people feel Unique & Special and it's all about attention, even if that attention becomes notoriety but for a few 'supporters' who have drunk the Koolade.
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Judy Sponaugle Marion - ha ha That isn't true. . .we both know it. The categories are a method to give people who want to purchase and breed Dexters the opportunity to KNOW the bloodlines. THANK GOODNESS. Legacy and traditional cattle are the US bloodlines previous to 1980 when Dexers with ancestors from the upgrading and/or experimental registries established in England in 1943 , Modern horned are the horned cattle with bloodlines which trace to modern imported semen to the US, and polled is rather self explanatory. The Legacy effort is to raise awareness. . . . . . 85% of ALL animals being registered in the US ( I think it is actually a bit higher now) are from the polled bloodlines ALL of which go back to Saltaire Platinum. That's not a good thing in ANY breed of cattle. It took less than 50 years to turn the horned Hereford breed into a primarily polled breed and when polled was introduced there were literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Herefords because in the 1920's forward they were the DOMINANT beef breed in American. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of living breeding Herefords. When the semen for Saltaire Platinum came to America his registration number was 6504. For all time we had only registered a few head over 6500. Were the bull not so problematic, and if the lies and deceit so prevalent it took TWENTY THREE years before ADCA would admit the truth of the outcrossings in that bull. . . . .and meanwhile. . . . .Dexters were being changed drastically in the US. Don't worry Marion. . . . it isn't far from a moot issue. Soon there will only be ONE category. MODERN POLLED. Science will confirm the statistics on that for you.
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Judy Sponaugle Let me tell breeders who are not aware of some Legacy facts. . Legacy established the first Dexter Cattle database of DNA samples at UCD in 2004. Legacy negotiated with the A2 Corporation with the permission of UCD to obtain A2 testing for the average cattle owner in America who were NOT permitted to test for A2. Legacy then negotiated with Australia for the rights to test for chondrodysplasia, and finally with Jon Beever and got the first permission for a public funded laboratory versus for-profit to do those tests. UCD then provided pricing for all these tests that was LESS than 1/2 cost of what owners were paying everywhere else, and it forced other labs to drop prices. Legacy provided the first opportunity for owners to have all tests available at one lab for exceptional pricing. And then, in the original intent to have all Dexters permently identified and their Legacy kept at one laboratory location. . . . .Legacy came up with the idea for DIRECT TESTING at UCD with CONTRACT pricing. .willing to take the decrease in business to afford owners control over their animals and results. THAT is what has the naysayers on here in a dither. the success and hard work and accomplishments for YOU, because Legacy nor me personally has ever benefited in any way. In any way folks. Their gripes are personality based, but they do not shun the benefits that Legacy has brought to them personally or to the breed. Legacy is working for YOU, whether you breed polled or horned. . .but the primary focus of Legacy was to alert Dexter owners to a crisis of numbers in the horned bloodlines. The very foundation of the breed.
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