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Post by jamshundred on Feb 26, 2015 18:44:00 GMT
LaDena MossDexter Cattle Enthusiasts I saw a post earlier about White Dexter Cattle with a link to an article. I clicked the link to read the article and my computer locked up and now I can't find it. Alley Dirks wow, never heard of white dexter cattle, but I do not much.. LaDena Moss Someone mentioned them to me this past summer and then it popped up this morning on FB with an article so I was curious. Carole Cogar Apparently someone deleted it. Was very interested also. LaDena Moss Carole Cogar, that must be why I can't find it. Carole Cogar When I get time I am going to try and Google it. LaDena Moss www.whitedexter.com/index.htmlWhite Dexter Miniature Cattle, an Old Breed with a New Color White Dexter cattle have all the qualities of the Dexter... WHITEDEXTER.COM Marion Clements Derived partly from Dexter Cattle but definitely not Dexters.Jacqulyn Ann Clevenger There actually white park cattle I believe dexters do not come in white Carole Cogar Thanks LaDena for the site. Will read up on these. Cassandra Coleman Mennone Cool...but still a total mixed breed! But hey if it floats your boat and people like them!Donna Jenkins Obviously an "upgrade"....Not for me....Vicki Solomon A cute "cocktail" cross, but not Dexters, whatever the breeders might like to call them. Both Dexter and White Park are old breeds, gene pools are limited. As long as some folks are preserving the old genetics...Janice McKim White Parks are very cute to me but I am just one of those that prefers to keep a breed pure if possible. To each their own, I just don't want to mix stuff up. I don't feel like I can improve on what is there - improve my Dexters to the best Dexters I can have, yes, but not improve a good Dexter.
Charlotte VanGenechten I thought I was being original.... Tia Hankins My Dexters came out all white. Carole Cogar I have a beautiful white cow that is half Dexter and half Charlois. Not my doing her black mom had been an escape artist. She is beefy. Same size as my dexters and every year had thrown a black calf although bred with registered red bull. Nine calves all black. This week she had a beautiful white calf out of the same red bull. Emily Boeve The "white Dexter" is a manufactured breed, started in the early 2000s. It's a cross between a White Park and a Dexter.Carole Cogar Tia what color are the parents? Patti Adams The White Dexter is actually a new breed, created through an upgrading process utilizing purebred Dexter cattle. The original cross was purebred White Park to purebred Dexter (so the resulting foundation animals were 50% White Park and 50% Dexter), and then subsequent generations were bred to purebred Dexter and the resulting offspring with the desired markings and color were selected for breeding the next generation, again to purebred Dexter. This is the same process that is followed by other breeds and that was actually done with Dexter cattle in other countries (England, Australia, and New Zealand) using an Appendix registry until full pedigree status was obtained in the 4th generation of breeding to purebred, registered Dexter bulls and keeping only selected, inspected females for registration, first as Appendix A, then their female offspring for Appendix B, and then their female offspring for Appendix C, and then finally their female offspring eligible for full pedigree status in the main herdbooks. Since the United States and Canada do not have an Appendix registry or allow for upgrading Dexter cattle, these White Dexters are not eligible for registration in the ADCA, PDCA, or CDCA. Marion Clements The idea of upgrading is to select for breed traits in each upgrade generation and to eliminate any animal exhibiting 'off' traits. Even if North American associations had an upgrading program, these 'white dexters' would not qualify, as they have been selected for a colour that is and never has been, part of the breed description.
Michael Snook Still only looks like a cross to me!Patti Adams But upgrading can also be used to create new breeds of cattle, utilizing the most desired traits and working towards a defined breed description. This is what has been done to create the White Dexter breed. As more progress is made in subsequent generations, there will be greater uniformity and predictability in the offspring that are produced by breeding "purebred" White Dexter bulls to "purebred" White Dexter cows. Registration is done and breeding records are kept with the Miniature Cattle Registry and not with the existing Dexter Cattle registries. For people that like the Dexter breed for its size, temperament, and dual-purpose traits, but that want the white color and interesting markings, it's a wonderful option off the beaten path. Marion Clements Too bad that the name 'Dexter' has not been protected.Midhill Farm For those wanting smaller cattle and wanting white for a warmer climate, then why not. One of the ladies that breeds them, Joanie Storck is an ex Director from the ADCA, nice lady. I suppose the name taken from both the breeds does make it seem like they are actually white Dexters, eventually one gets the drift though. Michael Snook Next thing will be Dexbu... A dexter and a zebu. I guess I'm about the only one that this bothers! Not trying to open a can of worms... But the general public will be totally confused and the White Dexter will ride our coat tails. Charlotte VanGenechten Mine are going to be called Skunkbacks! 25 mins · Like · 2 |
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 26, 2015 18:54:23 GMT
I posted this NOT to enlighten anyone as to White Dexters, ( they don't exist but there is a Gradwhol invention they are calling that), but to comment on comments that exemplify the problem facing the Dexter breed as it nears extinction. . . . worldwide! ( Save your keyboard - these outcrossed polled are absolutely no different than the white Dexters or the Pandas or anything else that SHOULD be called something else. . . .something else besides Dexters!)
I am struck by the hypocrisy. . . or lack of knowledge of the comments. Several of those who commented have the opinion they are definitely outcrossed and definitely not Dexters. However, the white cattle they are reading about were created with more deliberation and conscious choice than the POLLED lines which happened by accidental breeding. The English upgrading registry required an animal to go through upgrade A, B, C, and then the offspring was called purebred.
Saltaire Platinum's mother was a 50/50 cross. HE never went through the upgrading process, and there are THREE other outcrossings in his pedigree two of which also did not go through the appendix requirements. This bull was a GRADE bull by cattle standards, does not have the designed status of the White Park. . . . . and polled breeders are turning up their noses with negative comments.
No wonder there is a dilemmna of a grade bull wiping out a rare heritage breed. These folks do NOT get it! They cannot see the forest for the trees!
Judy
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 27, 2015 12:27:40 GMT
Yes Judy, the irony was very thick in that thread isn't it? It further reinforces the feeling that I have that color and polled status are the dominant traits that are being bred for today.
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Post by ladena on Feb 27, 2015 16:34:04 GMT
I feel I need to defend myself here which is odd because Judy and I get along fine,lol. There is just something about having your post from another board show up somewhere else just puts you on the defensive. At least for me it does but I'm pretty sure that is not the way it was intended.
Anyway, I posted that out of curiosity. I saw the original post by someone else before it was deleted and it triggered a conversation that I had with someone several months ago about a breeder breeding "white Dexters". I did go to the website and read it. They clearly state that the animals are upgraded and registered with the IMCBR, International Miniature Cattle Breeders Registry.
No conspiracy here, just curiosity........................... |
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 27, 2015 19:50:04 GMT
Hi Ladena, You bet from this end we get along great! It was not meant as a slam on you. You just asked a question. Being a person who wakes up with a question and goes to sleep with another one . . . curiosity is something I understand. . . big time! I also have the experience of having a thread I posted in transferred on the internet. My perspective was that it was an opportunity for discussion. I think everything is a discussion waiting to happen! You may have realized for the most part we have preservationists on this chat group. That philosophy is sorely lacking in the breed so we are small in number. Not everyone goes on FB and that thread was simply too good to let pass because it personifies the heads in the sand syndrome. A couple of the persons who commented on that thread have attacked me personally for my comments on the FACTUAL status of the introgressions in the bull Saltaire Platinum. They either ( 1) do not want to hear it (2) do not believe it ( even with proof) or (3) in denial (4) express the opinion it doe not matter. I thought it was ironic that people who find no problem with using bloodlines descended from a bull with FOUR outcrossings in a ten line pedigree and no process of upgrading through the standard purebred format, ( which is a genetic joke anyway). . . were turning up their noses and making the comments about the white park outcrosses. They don't realize those cattle are actually purebred when the polled lines were just a BIG LIE ! They are offended they are being called Dexters and feel the name should be protected and yet they were screaming bloody murder that I suggested the polled Animals (more outcrossed than the whites) should be seperate and given a new name. Anyway. . . don't take it personal. It was a perfect example of the hypocritical brick wall I've been bouncing off of for a few years. AND. . . . I brought you a present. It might give Donna nightmares though. ( As a side note. . . . I must say you have influenced me in ways that Charlotte did not. ( Charlotte's web). Now, when I wrap those little white cotton balls in a paper towel and toss them in the trash. . . I think of you and feel overwhelming guilt !   |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 27, 2015 20:25:29 GMT
LaDena, What Judy says is absolutely correct. Those of us who saw the thread knew exactly what she was speaking of, and her re-post wasn't in any way poking fun at you. I happen to have been in contact with the breeder of the White Dexter right now about a man in Germany who is looking for small Highland cattle. Apparently she is working with him also on a project to bring them, or a cross to something (it escapes me for the moment) to Germany. And from what I understand she's been doing as Patti had commented, using a pure registered Dexter bull over subsequent generations of the original crossbred Dexter/White Park.
That is not how polled was introduced to the Dexter breed. In the haste to get as many out there as they could, The original cross was not bred over and over to a purebred Dexter bull. In fact the opposite was done. A crossed AI bull was used over Dexter cows, multiplying the number of them considerably, and the polled progeny were then often used with other polled progeny from other breedings, which never really resulted in the dilution of the "other breed" that created the polled. It was more convienient to hide how it was created and call it a "novel fresh mutation" so as not to raise the red flags of those who understand what effect breeding crossbred to crossbred would have on the Dexter breed, (i.e. little to no further dilution of the "other breed").. And I think you see the result today. If somebody had wanted to do it correctly, they would have used a bull like Platinum (or any other nice crossbred bull that was polled) to develop a polled female crossbred, and then using a purebred Dexter bull over polled FEMALE progeny from her, then taking a polled female from that breeding and using a purebred horned Dexter again over her, and so on and so on. That is how you dilute the "other breed" genetics over time. But as you can imagine, that takes a lot of time, 10-20 years before you have ONE female or male that has a very small percentage of the "other breed". Look at the pedigrees of some of the breeders of exclusively red polled Dexters...they are full of the same ancestors over and over again, cookie cutter pedigrees.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 27, 2015 21:02:55 GMT
PS - LaDena, you probably know it. . . but that is an Australian Peacock spider. ( reference to Donna and nightmares - she's from Australia. Ever actually seen one Donna?).
Hans. One of the people who commented on the White Dexter thread said that even if outcrossing was allowed in the North American registries, ( more irony - we are registering about 90% outcrossed animals), the Whites would never be allowed because they are a color that has never been part of the standard. Ahem. . . . well, polled cattle were never part of the standard either. Dexter cattle are a HORNED breed. Just because some money grubbers or up-to-their-eyeballs with outcrossed lines folks want to change the horse in the middle of the stream. . . there are those of us who cry FOUL!. LaDena, . . . .out of the mouths of babes!
LOL. I have read that thread so many times. . . .I am now a bobble-head. Honestly, they don't get it! Actually, there are a few who really do NOT understand the polled animals they are breeding are from a grade bull. . . and then there are those who know. . . .. have known for years. . . . . and worked desperately to keep others from finding out the truth. Both types were present in that thread trashing "out-crossed" Dexters. I should send you flowers every year on the anniversary of that thread. LOL. ( Or a pretty spider). ( Or an ugly spider because I have much more access to those).
Judy
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Post by cascade on Feb 27, 2015 22:36:09 GMT
This actually has very little to do with outcrossing and is all about selection. You could do something very similar WITHOUT outcrossing and only using the most pure legacy dexters. You'd be shocked at some of the recessive genes we could find hiding in the purest of "Legacy" dexters.... If we selected for those hidden recessives, we could create some very tall, mean, white-spotted, cattle that don't look or act like dexters at all. The ONLY thing that keeps dexters as "Dexters" is a well-written breed standard, and constant selection for those standard traits. Here's a short little purebred dexter with Saltaire Platinum on the pedigree 17 times.... Looks pure Dexter to me.  |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 28, 2015 0:32:14 GMT
Do you have some other photos of this heifer? If I were you I'd post those instead of this one if they are better. Frankly she looks rather sickly and not thrifty in this one. It's a very rough coat, her eyes look lifeless and myopic, and her horns do not show evidence of health or vigor at all. I'm sure others on here with horned cattle have probably noticed the same about the horns.
I suggest getting some blood tests done to evaluate the possible causes for the rather unthrifty looking animal you have pictured here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 2:12:21 GMT
Do you have some other photos of this heifer? If I were you I'd post those instead of this one if they are better. Frankly she looks rather sickly and not thrifty in this one. It's a very rough coat, her eyes look lifeless and myopic, and her horns do not show evidence of health or vigor at all. I'm sure others on here with horned cattle have probably noticed the same about the horns. I suggest getting some blood tests done to evaluate the possible causes for the rather unthrifty looking animal you have pictured here. IMO there is nothing wrong with the condition of that heifer. This board is populated by several very hostile regulars and the above post is an example of only one of the many attempts to discredit the owner of the heifer. This board as represented by it's regulars will be the author of it's own demise. Very negative stuff. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 28, 2015 3:26:25 GMT
The fact that "Saltaire Platinum is in the pedigree seventeen times" notwithstanding, if that photo was sent to me as representative of one I was considering purchasing I would pass. Kirk has the ability to take another photo of the heifer and post it here if he so chooses. Who is this one Kirk? (ADCA number)
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Post by cascade on Feb 28, 2015 5:37:06 GMT
Other than her required bucellosis shot, she and her mother and grandmothers and great grandmothers have had ZERO vet care, no shots, Zero shelter other than trees, no grain, they have grass and hay and minerals only, 100% problem-free calves born in bad weather on pasture year after year after year. No lameness and not even a sniffle. She's in great condition and will be dropping a calf (likely in the freezing rain) soon with no help. I'll get a picture with the calf and with a person so you can see how short she is.
But, I'm not here to debate her particular qualities.... The POINT of showing this cow is to counter the misinformation being spread that SP has giant angus-looking descendants. This cow doesn't look like a giant Angus, and neither do hundreds of other S.P. descendents that I've seen.
Again, the ONLY thing that makes dexters "Dexters" is continual selection for traits that fit the Dexter standard/breed description. The "White-Dexter" is white because that's what those breeders purposefully selected for generation after generation after generation... it's NOT an accidental byproduct of outcrossing, it's purposeful selection.
There are all sorts of hidden recessives in the purest of dexters... 99.999% of ALL dexter's genes come from other breeds... You can get "White-Spotted" dexters from the most pure of "traditional/legacy" dexters if that's what you select for.
The good news in this, is that if you fans of "traditional-looking" dexters would do a good job of educating folks in what "traditional-looking dexters" should look like and how they should behave, you could win more people over to saving those "traditional" traits that you prefer.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 28, 2015 5:37:17 GMT
Ladena,
I am thinking of becoming an "indian
-giver" and taking back my gift. Every time I scroll past that photo I have to stop and stare. That is the most unusual insect. It simply has to be kin to the Tasmanian devil!
Judy
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Post by cascade on Feb 28, 2015 5:59:39 GMT
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Post by Donlin Stud on Feb 28, 2015 9:34:16 GMT
No Judy - haven't seen the illusive little peacock spider and will be very happy that it stays north too  |
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Post by Donlin Stud on Feb 28, 2015 9:36:00 GMT
Cascade - the heifer pictured pls tell me it's not her calf there?
Her horn development has me wondering how 'young' she was when that photo was taken
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Post by cascade on Mar 1, 2015 5:46:46 GMT
Cascade - the heifer pictured pls tell me it's not her calf there? Her horn development has me wondering how 'young' she was when that photo was taken That's not her calf... she's getting ready to have her first calf now. You can't see her horns well, because it's mostly a side shot.. Her horns are fairly substantial Photo was approaching age 2 I'll take another picture when she has her own calf. Again, my point in showing that picture, is to dispel the myth that Saltaire Platinum descendants all look like huge angus. Truth is that half of Saltaire Platinum's offspring were horned dexters, and many were fairly short, since Saltaire Platinum has tons of Woodmagic in him. |
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 1, 2015 19:10:58 GMT
Kirk,
Saltaire Platinum has as much or more Parndon as Woodmagic. Parndon animals you see in photos are dwarf cattle as were the Atlantic herd.
Here's the facts .. . . . and it pains me to have to tell you Kirk. ( LOL - OK it doesn't).
The animals in the Platinum pedigree that have Woodmagic were all but three born BEFORE Mrs. Rutherford closed her herd and focused on breeding non-chondro. The ONLY thing you can say with any percentage of accuracy about the SP pedigree ( besides the fact he was NOT a purebred bull), is that MOST of the animals in that pedigree were likely DWARF cattle from herds whose photographed animals were mostly all very small dwarf cattle.
Judy
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Post by ladena on Mar 2, 2015 14:34:03 GMT
Hey, Judy, thank you so much for the spider,lol. I knew right away what it was and I think they are beautiful. Go ahead and take it down and I'll send you a pic to replace it. I already have a picture in mind but I have to find it first and I promise that you will love it, seriously. |
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Post by cascade on Mar 2, 2015 22:44:48 GMT
Kirk, Saltaire Platinum has as much or more Parndon as Woodmagic. Parndon animals you see in photos are dwarf cattle as were the Atlantic herd. Here's the facts .. . . . and it pains me to have to tell you Kirk. ( LOL - OK it doesn't). The animals in the Platinum pedigree that have Woodmagic were all but three born BEFORE Mrs. Rutherford closed her herd and focused on breeding non-chondro. The ONLY thing you can say with any percentage of accuracy about the SP pedigree ( besides the fact he was NOT a purebred bull), is that MOST of the animals in that pedigree were likely DWARF cattle from herds whose photographed animals were mostly all very small dwarf cattle. Judy Thanks!... Appreciate your historical knowledge I don't think that Beryl Rutherford of Woodmagic invented short non-chondros out of thin air. I think that earlier folks who truly liked smaller dexters, just got rid of any of their taller longer-legged cattle and that left them with some non-chondro true-shorts mixed in with their chondro-dwarfs. If you're selecting for all shorter cattle without the knowledge of the chondro-gene and without the ability to test, you're going to get a good number of both true-shorts (naturally short without the chondro-gene) and chondro-dwarfs (with the chondro-gene). I think that Beryl just capitalized on those preexisting naturally true-shorts and built a line around them. What makes a dexter a purebred is being accepted into a purebred registry. Saltaire Platinum is 100% purebred dexter..... He's accepted into all major registries as purebred. That makes him 100% purebred. That's the very definition of "purebred". 99.99% of all dexter genes come from non-dexters. All dexters have 100% outcrossings in the their distant pedigrees. What makes dexters, "Dexters" is selecting for dexter-like traits and culling out any animals with non-dexter traits. But while all dexters have out-crossing in their distant pedigrees, some purebred dexters have more recent outcrossings in their pedigrees, than others do. The most recent 4 or 5 generations is what really matters according to geneticists. If we look at Saltaire Platinum's five generation pedigree, are there any non-dexters? They all appear to be Dexters. Exactly which of the animals on the first page of this pedigree, are non-registered-dexters? dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=6504 |
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Post by lonecowhand on Mar 2, 2015 23:20:04 GMT
If counterfeit money is accepted resulting from trickery, is it now legal tender?
"Accepted " is only as good as the information available at the time. If it's by oversight,it's a mistake to be righted.
If it's through chicanery, it's fraud, and needs to be redressed.
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