Jill Woodruff
June 29 at 1:55pm
As a Dexter newbie I will ask what is all the bickering about? In my internet research, it seems to focus on horns. I assume because horns were in the first dexters and polled is introduced, not a mutation as some propose.
There is a lot more to cattle than horns, so I would love to hear the battle explained politely.
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5 people like this.
Cory Blystone you might as well forget the politely part lol
June 29 at 2:08pm · Like · 7
Sheri Palko People simply love to bicker. You will find many argument about horned vs polled, and even more arguments about chondro vs non-chondro. Opinions... everyone has them.
June 29 at 2:09pm · Like · 5
Jill Woodruff Hope not. But I'm using polled Dexter to upbreed Jersey to hornless.
June 29 at 2:10pm · Like · 2
Jill Woodruff Upbreeding is a matter of strong opinions for sure.
June 29 at 2:11pm · Like · 2
Cory Blystone personally i could care less if they have horns or not its about performance for us how well does the cow raise a calf and does the bull promote the body type we are shooting for people think your ruining the breed with the polled cattle but its really a matter of what your trying to achieve on your farm same goes for color (pretty sure what under the hide/meat has nothing to do with what color it is on the outside) and the chrondo issue hope i didnt offend anyone wink wink nod nod i really dont care it i offended anyone or not lol
June 29 at 2:18pm · Like · 4
Sheri Palko And keep in mind... Unless your dexter is homozygous polled you still have a 50% chance of getting a horned calf.
June 29 at 2:19pm · Like · 1
Tanya Michelle In my opinion the bickering is a real turn off. I breed what I want and don’t get involved. I will say, it is getting real old real fast. It appears its going to be a ongoing issue forever.
June 29 at 2:24pm · Like · 11
Jill Woodruff I certainly have no use whatsoever for horns and since my friendly Dexter bull has charged twice I'm even more glad he's polled. But every time I see the argument, it seems to focus on horns. I guess that Lucifer of Knotting was a Jersey dilute, but I never had a Jersey charge at me. I know that too Sheri, I always have dehorning paste on hand. It seems the kindest time to eliminate horns. And I know it burns, I usually get it all over me too.
June 29 at 2:25pm · Like · 4
Jill Woodruff I agree Tanya. How many breeds of any 'same' animal have 3 registries?
June 29 at 2:27pm · Like · 2
Sheri Palko So see?... everyone has different priorities. I prefer polled or dehorned... But neither is as important as temperment to me... Any bull or ram who makes one aggressive move here ends up in the freezer in less than 24 hrs - not negotiable.
June 29 at 2:27pm · Like · 5
Jill Woodruff Mine is going there, I'm just not done with him yet.
June 29 at 2:28pm · Like · 2
Sheri Palko Ok... so question. .. Why would you breed him? Why pass that on? Just a difference in priorities... And I respect that difference... I'd simply love to know what characteristic he has that is more important that can't be found in a bull that would have a better temperment?
June 29 at 2:30pm · Like · 2
Jill Woodruff My cows are good enough to counter balance I hope. I bought him as a weanling and in 500 or so days of ownership, he has charged twice. It's the way this cookie crumbled, and the freezer is the backup plan. And I don't have room at the moment.
June 29 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like · 2
Shauna Eastwood Following, great info and agreed on every point thus far, and really appreciate the politeness thus far.
June 29 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
Mike Lord Jill.......the Irish Dexter was always known as a horned breed ( regarded so in British Isles Vet and early cattle textbooks, records ) and at one time, rare. Around twenty years the polled gene was introduced in the opinion of many, fraudulently. Claimed to be a mutation gene. The Traditionalist are saddened over the disappearance of the original genetically horned Dexter, not only the loss of the especially noted beautiful black tipped horns but the loss of dual purpose characteristics. Therein lies the bitterness. The solution is realistically a division of the two types. Other specie associations have parted ways over horns, it would end the bitterness and bickering. You'll get others in on your question because there are a lot of opinions and there will be disagreement with what I said but as a breeder of traditional Dexters for twenty years, that's my read on it. I regret losing the originality of such a unique and special breed. Shaun....Someday Maybe Farms.
June 29 at 2:38pm · Like · 3
Jill Woodruff So Shaun, it really is about the horns. I can acknowledge a reason for bitterness when it is felt to be a dishonest introduction. I'[ve wondered why one registry doesn't just make a polled section and the tradtional? Seems it would be better to have just one registry with mandatory genetic tests always. Polled is supposed to be a dominant trait, is the original mutant/cross identified or were there several?
June 29 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko I believe you will find that the Legacy database does just that. Even their registration numbers indicate whether an animal is "traditional horned". While non traditional and polled animals are permitted in the database, they are all identified specifically.
June 29 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
Jill Woodruff Are their fees the highest and do they upcharge the lab fees? Haven't been there for awhile, but it looked like the most expensive group if I remember. And it seemed they were the elite and the not so elite cattle. That is how I remember interpreting that website.
June 29 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
Mike Lord Apparently several unknowns and Angus, Red Poll. There are definite gaps and foggy pedigree gaps in the English upgrades. Now here's where the arguments got nasty........the claim by those that introduced the poll gene was a " mutation". Others researched the muddy English pedigrees and said not so fast. So, back to my personal reason for not introducing polled in my herd......I happen to be lucky enough to visit the well known, well respected English breeder Beryl Rutherford (Woodmagic Herd) just a little over a month before she was admitted to the hospital in Barnstable. At the end of my long visit I asked her about polled and she said it never happened, consider the source. I left with that in mind, reinforced that I was doing the right thing staying Traditional. Legacy doesn't have the capacity to issue Registration papers at this time or the software required but I think that might change. Actually, Legacy encouraged genotyping of both male and female Dexters at reduced prices long before the ADCA mandated males be DNA genotyped. Not sure what you mean by elite? S
June 29 at 2:59pm · Like · 1
Mike Lord When the Association split years ago the ALBC thought it was over Polled, they were late realizing it was a power struggle as the ADCA was growing in leaps and bounds but those who were in control had no intention of allowing a more professionally run organization. In a sense, it's surprising a split over polled hasn't happened! S
June 29 at 3:07pm · Like
Tanya Michelle IMO whats done is done.. Polled is a REAL part of the breed. Thats never going to change. No amount of infighting is going to change that. I have no use for horns and will never ever breed for them. If polled was not a part of the breed, I would have never gotten into Dexters. Many others are the same. At this point history is history is history. Time to get over it and move on. But of course that will never happen because as someone already said, people love to bicker. If not about horns then about everything else.
June 29 at 3:07pm · Like · 5
Jill Woodruff Has Legacy changed their site in the last year? I don't know what I meant either Shaun, I just visited and it doesn't look like I remembered. I can see your position, esp coming from the endangered days. So is Legacy trying to do a division of old and new? Seems to me in general Dexters are plentiful, if not being a purist?
June 29 at 3:08pm · Like
Mike Lord Tanya, polled is a part of the breed now, but don't you think the original genetically horned Dexter should be preserved for all the reasons I mention. They are rare again, has nothing to do with moving on and everything to do with preserving the original Dexter. S
June 29 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
Tanya Michelle Mike, the legacy group is already doing that. So I guess I dont understand your question. I personally have no interest in preserving the original Dexters because I wont be breeding horns. But I have no issue what so ever for those who love them and want to do that. In what Ive read throughout the years its the traditionalist who are AGAINST the polled folks, not the other way around.
June 29 at 3:19pm · Like · 3
Mike Lord LegacyDataBase@aol.com, as far as I know. Not sure about a division. I think Legacy identifies pedigrees carrying polled genes. Shaun
June 29 at 3:19pm · Like
Jody Jess Of course it's that way Rare bred Dexters are the Horns just like they were A HORNED BREED Polled is fine but do not calling them "IRISH" ANGUS is not IRISH
June 29 at 3:21pm · Like
Cory Blystone thats fine Shaun if thats what you want to do but there are to many people/traditionalist in my opinion that are throwing stones as for the splitting of the registry The Hereford Assc. combine the polled and horned i got on these Dexter pages to learn more about the breed in general becuase i come from a family that raised full size breeds and was unfamilair with the Dexters over the course of the last couple months it has become a complete turn off how some talk down to others for one reason or the other
June 29 at 3:23pm · Edited · Like · 4
Shauna Eastwood While health and temperament are paramount on our farm, and we like the variety of Dexters, the idea of preserving the traditional aspect of the breed has always intrigued me, and i respect this idea. When we got started, there just were not any traditional dexters available to us within reason, money location etc. i just went to legacy out of curiosity and filtered on traditional horned and it returned 530 animals, was not clear if that included deceased. Shaun, how many traditional dexters do you think are out there? Looks like enough for good genetic diversity, although i dont know much about genetics. Are the traditionalists trying to band together to try to promote this aspect of the breed, more positive marketing, events, fb group etc .....? To generate more positive interest...
June 29 at 3:24pm · Like · 2
Sheri Palko I think an important consideration when discussing "hot topics" is that regardless of the reason something is hot, loosing some of the original genetics because hot topics are the "in" thing is always a danger. People have a tendency to become so single minded that they forget to breed "the whole animal". We've discussed horned and temperment, but there are other examples such as chondro and A2 status. Consider A2 status for a minute... certainly the current "hot topic". But how many people are breeding for A2 status alone and foresaking other qualities?
Everyone has to establish their own list of priorities when breeding, but how many people do that relative to the overall improvement of the breed. We can all list our priorities... But those breeding for A2 status, or polled, or color, etc, ABOVE health, soundness, structure, and temperment, are, imo, doing a disservice to the breed by eliminating quality genetics.
For us it is the four qualities listed above as the first priority. Followed by those 4 is forage conversion - let's face it, some animals are better at this than others and this is an important trait for us.
"After" those first 4 traits should come the other factors. Because without them, color, horns, milk status, etc are all irrelevant.
It doesn't matter if someone thinks they are improving the breed by breeding only horned or breeding only A2, etc, if the animals they ate breeding are not quality animals to begin with.
June 29 at 3:25pm · Like · 9
Mike Lord Tanya, Legacy doesn't issue Registration papers or have the software for a Registry. It's operated by one person. Shaun, not my husband Michael.......one Facebook account is enough! You're probably right about the Traditionalist being "against" the polled breeders as those breeders are the ones who changed one of the most beautiful features of an ancient breed! Shaun
June 29 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
Mike Lord Shauna.......no idea but Legacy just released the numbers........I saw the chart but was too busy to absorb the numbers. The Traditionalist are a loose group....when I get an order for one of my traditionalist AI bulls semen I get an earful regarding the loss of the original Dexter but no attempt at organizing has come together yet. Legacy is the closest to helping identify non polled and point those wanting to buy horned in the right direction. S
June 29 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
Tanya Michelle Its all about ones personal opinion Mike. I think that the polled animals are the most beautiful and on my small farm, the most useful. Im not turned on by the horns at all. But I totally respect your opinion on the horns 100%. As I hope you will respect mine.
June 29 at 3:30pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson Jill, it isn't just about the horns. When a different breed's genetics are crossbred into what was an established breed like the Dexter, other traits also made their way into what the Dexter had been for many years. Now there seems to be single trait selection for polled, which is further changing the phenotype of the Dexter into something quite different than what was originally created, because those traits are carried along with the polled, and emphasized with repeated breeding of polled to polled.
June 29 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
Jill Woodruff I found the Legacy page that was such a turn off to me., too many 'legacy" pages. But maybe it belongs to someone here. If I link it will really offend. So I have to ask, what is wrong with modernization? All breeds change with the times. Polled has been a convenience of modern cattle handling and maybe that is why traditional dexters ARE fading. There really isn't any reason to have horns for most people.
June 29 at 3:35pm · Like
Mike Lord You're missing the historical point and I don't want to argue, far from it.......special note was made about the beauty of the Dexter with their black tipped, white horns. There are around one hundred sixty horned ( about a dozen had their horns removed before I owned them) purebred Dexters here and those who see the fields of them are amazed at the distinct beauty of what they see, the uniqueness. I hear it all the time. Give some credit to unique, not common. Shaun
June 29 at 3:36pm · Like · 2
Tanya Michelle Now isnt that the real argument here Hans? The traditionalist such as yourself say polled is a INTRODUCTION and the polled folks say its a mutation. I say, who cares, no one is ever going to know for sure. One thing is for sure. Polled is here to stay.
June 29 at 3:40pm · Like · 4
Mike Lord We have predators......as the Dairy and grape farms go out of business the forest comes back here in Western N. Y. Dexters use their horns on predators and wandering dogs. They scratch themselves with their horns but beyond that, no purpose. Yes, I've been hurt twice by an overprotective cow, not seriously and not enough to have my Vet remove all horns. Shaun
June 29 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
Mike Lord As for modernization.......years ago there wasn't a huge selection of breeding stock to select from, you took what you could get. That changed as numbers and interest increased. A breeder can improved the old lines now, udder and feet, tail set, without imported up grades. I've heard that argument before and it no longer applies. S
June 29 at 3:45pm · Like
Hans Peterson Let's say you breed a Poodle and a Cocker Spaniel. You get a Cockapoo. It has characteristics from both breeds. You can never get back to either a Poodle or a Cocker Spaniel that you started with. So it does make a difference whether it is an "introduction" or "mutation." If you're breeding for polled, you'll never escape the other traits that polled introduced into the breed. It's like breeding Cockapoo to Cockapoo and expecting to get a Poodle (or Cocker Spaniel) again. So you're always going to get horns unless another one in a million "fresh mutation" appears again and you can finally find another line of polled to breed to.
June 29 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko I will add one other consideration that is an important factor here... We milk. Getting cows with horns into stanchions is a complication - ok... That's an understatement - they simply do not fit. LOL. So, while I do have some horned genetics, they are all dehorned.
June 29 at 3:47pm · Like · 3
Mike Lord So far, all civil, how's that? Shaun
June 29 at 3:48pm · Like · 3
Tanya Michelle Im with you Sheri, we milk each and every cow on our farm that freshens. No exceptions.
June 29 at 3:49pm · Like
Hans Peterson Yes, if you're prepared for it, dehorning is no more difficult to do than banding, ear tagging, tattoo, or any number of other things that we have to do as cattle owners.
June 29 at 3:51pm · Like
Jill Woodruff I think it comes back to breeding philosophy. If one wants to preserve it will be for a niche market. Yes prices might be higher due to rarity but it couldn't reach 'commercial' scope of business. The Dexter images that show rangey cattle, body type much like longhorns, who also have a niche market, don't appeal to 'real' cattle people. Dexters are a hobby breed, could we all agree on that?
June 29 at 3:53pm · Like
Sheri Palko When we dehorn we use a goat dehorner/burner when they are 3-4 weeks old. I simply dislike dehorning but that has been the quickest, least painful, and most effective way we have found.
June 29 at 3:55pm · Like · 2
Mike Lord Sheri......I understand your point of breeding for one trait. I don't breed just for horns.....far from it, I want a dual purpose animal for quality beef and a great milk cow. They will still be genetically horned. S
June 29 at 3:55pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson One other note Tanya, if you are such an advocate of polled Dexters, you should steer every horned bull that is born from polled genetics. Stand by your convictions.
June 29 at 3:58pm · Like
Sheri Palko Hmmm... I'd have to disagree with that last statement Jill. With a background in Holsteins, Angus, and Herefords, I'd consider us "real" cattle people. But we are blessed to live where we have plenty of rain and quality year round forage and made the change to Dexters because of their forage conversion abilities. This is not a hobby. Nor are the Polypay or other animals we breed.
June 29 at 3:58pm · Like · 3
Mike Lord Not sure about those high prices for rarity.......the horned Dexter is rare again from recent counts but It certainly has no effect on the amount of beef that is sold off the farms here. We probably are in the top five in the Country for Dexter beef production. Our USDA personal farm sticker doesn't say rare beef on it. Made me smile.......Shaun
June 29 at 3:59pm · Like · 2
Sheri Palko Mike Lord... I guess I just like em all.
I've said this many times... I don't care if it's pink with purple polka dots... a good cow is a good cow.
June 29 at 4:01pm · Like · 3
Midhill Farm I don't know why it goes down hill all the time, I suppose people are passionate about what they like. There are only a few people that breed polled animals that tend to join in any debates online that's because some of the polled bashers get vicious with their verbal attacks, so why would they join in? It's my feeling that whatever the horned people want to change they would be best served by lobbying their Directors and or the ADCA or PDCA. Polled was in the breed when I got into it 14 years ago, it is accepted by every breed society in the world. I can't alter what happened 20 years ago when Platinum was let into the registry, I don't mind what other people breed, I think it's great people want to save older lines or concentrate on red or breed just dun or..... but don't disrespect someone elses choice just because it doesn't follow your party line.
June 29 at 4:01pm · Like · 9
Jill Woodruff Letting tempers flare is what halts communication. Hans the Cockapoo would be an F1. If you keep breeding back to ONE of the parent breeds you do get back to acceptable purity of either the poodle or cocker. That is the "theory" of breed improvement. Sheri, seriously? Do you think we can talk Dexter herd genetics with a feedlot contractor or dairy coop?
June 29 at 4:10pm · Like
Sheri Palko Jill, I think you lost me on this last comment
June 29 at 4:12pm · Like
Jill Woodruff Sorry. I was wondering about our difference in definition of hobby vs real cattlemen. Around here Dexters are not taken seriously for meat or milk, they are a hobby breed.
June 29 at 4:14pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko I'm not sure how they're taken "around here". Doesn't matter though since we are our own family business. Even when we miked Holsteins it was not a coop, just private sales. And when we milked 150 ewes we made and sold cheese... From our own milk. We direct sell beef, lamb, chicken, and rabbit. We don't wholesale.
June 29 at 4:20pm · Like · 1
Shauna Eastwood Perhaps among the conventional cattlemen, i have a waiting lost 3 years long for grass fed beef and we are just getting started.
June 29 at 4:20pm · Like · 2
Jill Woodruff Grass fed beef if a niche market isn't it? And Dexter 300# or less hanging weights are hobby size? That is what is good about Dexters and I think Hans pointed that out months ago, don't need multiple buyers for Dexter beef.
June 29 at 4:21pm · Edited · Like
Sheri Palko I don't believe it is niche. I believe more and more all the time it is conventional and will be the way of the future. Traditional grain fed beef will be a thing if the past out of necessity. Necessity demanded by consumers who refuse to eat gmo feed animals, and necessity of the farmer who will not be able to afford, justify, or have access to a lot of grains.
June 29 at 4:26pm · Like · 3
Paul Duke I think folks get a little worked up because they read all the online stories about what great little cows Dexters are and then pay extra for pedigreed stock thinking they are getting what they read about. But all those articles are about the original bloodline Dexters before the upgrades and no one bothered to tell them anything about it. I see it as a failing of the ADCA not to get the information out to everyone and not making the legacy classification of any Dexter readily available even though their current data indicates polled or horned that is not enough to determine the bloodlines. Just dumb luck on my part that I ended up with legacy Dexters because I was clueless when I bought them. It matters because without proper attention there may not be a traditional vs modern choice much longer, every American Dexter will be modern in genetic terms. Traditional will pass by the way just as legacy qualified, for all practical purposes, already have.
June 29 at 4:29pm · Edited · Like · 1
Jill Woodruff Paul, it is about more than horns to you? I had a lesson in friendly halter broke bulls that can get aggressive, and I don't know the bloodline. I've dealt with several registered/grade cattle breeds and this is the first breed where I've wondered, maybe I did need the bloodline.
June 29 at 4:35pm · Like
Paul Duke Yes, it's more than just the horns because the polled gene set is only one of how many? Probably at least thousands. Size, temperament, longevity, hardiness, and the list goes on. I was talking to a lady in OK a few days ago that has 25 year old Dexter cows still calving which is just amazing. For example compare with modern breeds made for feedlots, maybe 13 or so years and they done. So it's not just horns.
June 29 at 4:41pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson Agreed, Paul. It's much more than just horns. We dehorn nearly every calf born on our property (we have a few that are purchased as oxen each year, where horns are needed so they don't back out of their yokes). We've raised Angus before... the phenotype is exactly the opposite of a Dexter's. If I want a Dexter calf without horns, it's a really simple process to dehorn them. But I get to retain ALL of the characteristics, exactly as is, in my Dexter calf. All of the good, without the horns. For the sake of a 10 minute process (it takes longer to heat up the iron than it does to dehorn the calf), I get to retain EVERY characteristic of the breed I love. Sheril (Hans' wife)
June 29 at 4:49pm · Like · 2
Jill Woodruff Not just the horns, yet the horns are part of it. I hate dehorning. I think it is cruel on adults, and can be unreliable on calves. The best breeding advice I heard on dehorning was "use genetics". I will criticize horns in that they will use them against you, tear up fences, need more room, & interfere with the headgate, I can't come up with one good reason to have horns on cattle. I think that is the detriment of the legacy cattle because what horned breed is popular?
June 29 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
Paul Duke I like to grab my bull by the horns
June 29 at 4:51pm · Like · 2
Jill Woodruff Yes, I"ve wondered about mine, if he only had horn I might could drape a cape on his head.
June 29 at 4:52pm · Like
Paul Duke Seriously though, I run them thru the squeeze and headgate with horns and it just takes a little longer but I don't get in a hurry anyway. I've only ever been poked once and that was by a cow that wanted what I had in the bucket I was carrying. Didn't really hurt that much and I yelled and chased her and she's never done it again.
June 29 at 4:54pm · Like
Hans Peterson We dehorn at 2-3 weeks of age. Done this early, it is extremely fast and we've NEVER had one turn out poorly.
June 29 at 4:55pm · Like
Jill Woodruff It isn't so bad if you have all horns or all polled, but having both is a big inconvenience with the head gate. I don't really know what the span of Dexter horns is tho.
June 29 at 4:55pm · Like
Paul Duke I have a polled too and she goes into the head gate a little easier but I don't find any issues with either.
June 29 at 4:57pm · Like
Hans Peterson Problem with polled is that you can get horns... and these horned calves don't necessarily get horns when a normal calf's horns bud out. They can be several months later. Dehorning a calf that is several months old is NOT fun for either the person doing the dehorning nor the calf. We are not strangers to polled... we've had/have both polled and horned, so we speak from experience.
June 29 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
Jill Woodruff I do think the earler the better too, Hans. And that variation in bud showing is a problem. Don't you have to change the adjustment to get horns thru yet hold the hornless in the headgate?
June 29 at 4:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
Paul Duke I don't, the horned will turn and twist to get their head thru the gate. Set the gate so it will close when they hit it with their shoulders and just wait. Sometimes one gets away and I have to go get it and try again. But I don't have a big operation or tight schedule so I'm ok with it.
June 29 at 5:01pm · Like
Shauna Eastwood Sorry this is getting ot but just fyi on terminology. Conventional is
typically grain fed gmo could include antibiotics hormones etc. Organic is
the other method non gmo all grass etc. And then there are some with sort
of a hybrid approach. Absolutely know what you are saying. The demand for organic grass fed beef is amazing.
June 29 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
Hans Peterson We have a squeeze chute that we use for our dehorned Dexters and even our Highlands (long horned breed); they all fit into the same chute with no modifications necessary. The horned cattle are very adept at getting their heads through the chute, but the horned cattle also lock in a lot better than a dehorned bovine.
June 29 at 5:04pm · Like · 2
Jill Woodruff Yes, I think it is more a problem getting horns in. And then keeping the polled in. But I also have big size variation too. Now Highland is not a breed for me, too much hair and horn. Did the little Highlands come from Dexter genetics? Had a friend with a big Highland cow, never did envy those horns.
June 29 at 5:09pm · Edited · Like
Sheri Palko Organic here is given little to know consideration. Why? Because it is nothing more than a bunch of government hoops. You technically cannot use the word organic unless you are certified. I refuse to certify. My practices would permit an organic cert, but it is a matter of principal. Different subject... Don't get me started on that one.
June 29 at 5:16pm · Like · 2
Sheri Palko Grass fed is also misleading. Too many people are now using it to mean. .. My cows eat some grass. Management practices are very specific to region but more importantly the consumers are finely beginning to ask all the right questions.
June 29 at 5:18pm · Like · 2
Hans Peterson Highlands are another dual purpose heritage breed, but from neighboring Scotland. They are very hardy. The long hair keeps the flies from bothering them. Like the Dexter, they have a dual coat and store less fat under the skin, so fat is marbled throughout the meat. They do best in more northern states. We have a very rare Kyloe Highland bull. At 7 years of age, he is smaller than our long legged Dexter bull, weighing in at just 750 pounds. Kyloes are from the islands off of the coast of Scotland where the weather was more harsh and the food even more sparse, so they are smaller and have more hair than mainland Highlands. Highlands are normally significantly larger than a Dexter. Mainland Highland bulls weigh in at 1800-2500+ pounds at 7 years of age. The horns actually help them to regulate their body temperatures in the heat. They know exactly where they are and can scratch an itch well with them. They also weave their heads into feeders like pros.
June 29 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
Mike Lord I have to disagree regarding removal of horns. If done right, (which doesn't mean the old wild way of basically big clippers, blood spurting every where) through several options I have never noticed the animal traumatized. We band when someone buys and wants the horns off or have the Vet surgically remove them. No fuss, no muss. If I ever thought for a minute the Dexter was harmed in any way the horns would stay on. It does take us three days to run all the Dexters three times a year ( calving pastures in the Spring, sorting for who goes with what breeding bull August 1st., and weaning usually in November) through the squeeze chute to do whatever we need to. You go slow allowing the horned heads to turn and settle into the headstall. Sometimes we miss closing on the shoulder but all in all it's carefully done. You make allowances for horns, it's called animal husbandry. Shaun
June 29 at 5:29pm · Like · 1
Mike Lord I thought this was a civil discussion, wasn't going down hill at all. What changed while I went to the woods? Shaun
June 29 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
Hans Peterson Jill, we had a little shorty heifer, Nina, born at the end of October out of a polled cow. No horn buds at all at birth. No horn buds at all in December... figured she was polled for sure. With the sever winter here in Michigan, we did chores about as fast as we could in the cold. In April, I noticed the "tufts" of hair on the sides of Nina's head... yep, horns. Now I have a 6 month old heifer that needs to be dehorned. Much more traumatic for the calf and much more traumatic for us. And we are experienced and set up to dehorn.
June 29 at 5:36pm · Like
Hans Peterson When we dehorn at 2 weeks of age, they act like nothing has happened immediately afterwards. We use an iron. At 2 weeks of age, it takes very little time. We also pull hairs for DNA testing, do ear tags, and give BoSe shots at the same time. They make just about as much fuss when we shave the hair over their horn buds as they do when we burn the horns off. There is no after care, and we've never had re-growth when done at this age. Their heads look perfect as soon as the hair grows back in. Our vet uses an anesthetic, but I think they dislike the shots more than the dehorning... so we stopped doing the shots.
June 29 at 5:41pm · Like
Hans Peterson "Jill Woodruff Letting tempers flare is what halts communication. Hans the Cockapoo would be an F1. If you keep breeding back to ONE of the parent breeds you do get back to acceptable purity of either the poodle or cocker. That is the "theory" of breed improvement. " Jill what you've said is true, however that isn't what is usually happening. Polled are being bred back to polled, (like breeding a Cockapoo to Cockapoo) and in the further quest for homozygous polled it's now extensively on both sides of the pedigree. There isn't much genetic diversity in that. They all come out of ONE animal, and most of the polled pedigrees are indistinguishable from each other. In order for the polled breeders to get back to the Dexter phenotype, they need those who are breeding the traditional lines to continue to furnish them with horned Dexters.
June 29 at 5:59pm · Like
Alicia A. Bentley Hehe. I leave my computer to go spend time with my cows for 2 hours, and 84 posts later, everyone is having the same discussion. I'm surprised we get even ONE newbie to be interested in our small cattle,the way we carry on so.....
June 29 at 6:18pm · Edited · Like · 4
Denise Harvey Depends which country you are coming from !!! In Australia we have a grading up program and many of us used polled animals as our base, which meant we could breed and grade up to poll purebreds in 4 generations. Other countries have different rules
June 29 at 6:38pm · Like · 2
Barbara Netti Wanted to post this comment here also: For those that have commented on the purity of your animals. Please explain how you know this? For the first 60 plus years Dexters were here in the US, the early 1900's there were no parentage verifications done. Even in this modern day and time we are still seeing wrong parentage. I can't imagine what it must have been like way back when Dexters first came here. Some Dexters that came across on the boat were accepted by inspection. For goodness sakes folks believe what you want to believe, breed what you want to breed, but quite trying to say something that can not be proven. Stop this constant bickering between polled/horned, non-carrier/carrier & colors. Be happy with what you have and let everyone else do the same
June 29 at 6:42pm · Like · 15
Elizabeth Kiepe Ridings Amen Barbara
June 29 at 6:51pm · Like · 3
Paul Duke I don't think mindless extinction of a heritage bloodline is a trivial matter.
June 29 at 6:53pm · Edited · Like · 3
Duncan MacIntyre Highland Cattle in Scotland are most defininitely not a dual purpose breed, and have not been for over a hundred years. They are very firmly in the beef camp, or as tourist attractions. I went for Dexters because I wanted a house cow which would produce useful beef calves. I am also not aware of any such thing in Scotland today as a Kyloe. The Kyloe was a generic term for cattle from the West Coast and Islands of Scotland before breeds became defined and recorded. The Highland breed of today is a very much improved version of the Kyloe of 150 years ago.
June 29 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
Marion Clements Hey Hans, It's entirely possible to have a polled cow with typical "Dexter phenotype', I've got one who got her polled from one ancestor, I'm sure there are many out there. Think on this: Many breeders who selected for polled were probably interested also in selecting for beefiness. It would also have been possible (and indeed it has been done)..to select for beefiness in horned stock. But in a beef type herd there would be the advantage of polled. Therefore the shape would be as a result of selection for body type and not because of the polled trait.
June 29 at 7:07pm · Like · 2
Mike Lord Must have missed a comment on purity......I never claimed it, I know mistakes are made on farms but the overall with early horned genetics was to breed genetically horned Dexters. Those farms were estates, the wealthy imported and expanded Dexters.....they payed employees to keep things straight......mistakes were probably not as rampant as polled breeders want everyone to believe. I don't know of a single recorded polled Dexter through those decades. Let's stick to Jill's original question..........Shaun
June 29 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
Marion Clements I believe it is possible that Esmeralda was a polled mutation. I think that if a proven polled mutation occurred now, it still would not be accepted by the purists.
June 29 at 7:13pm · Like · 2
Mike Lord She wasn't according to Beryl Rutherford... Shaun
June 29 at 7:18pm · Like
Marion Clements But that's just hearsay as well. We will never know for certain. I feel that the drive for paper purity is sometimes not rational. I don;'t know if it's changed at all, but when I was a goatlady, goats that were upgraded for many generations (and bear in mind most of those original goats in the country were Saanen or Toggenburg imports from generations before and certainly predating any registries.. incredibly typey, milky old girls..) there were still buyers insisting on papered 'purebreds' rather than papered (so called 'upgraded') to 31/32 and higher, Canadian of Breed, that were 'upgraded' using purebred bucks, from these originals.
June 29 at 7:42pm · Edited · Like
Sheri Palko I've enjoyed the fact that this entire thread has been polite and and yet represents different opinions.
June 29 at 7:50pm · Like · 5
Mike Lord Marion, we are remaining polite and I appreciate that.....I sat across from Beryl and for hours we yapped about Dexters. My question to her was her opinion of polled and that's what she replied........it never happened and consider the source when I asked why it didn't happen. Not hearsay by any means. She did not approve and as an insider knew far more than any of us. Shaun
June 29 at 8:05pm · Like · 2
Marion Clements Shaun, with respect, You got Beryl's opinion and 'consider the source" leaves it open to interpretation. I have also read Beryl elsewhere with somewhat different wording. I think what many have difficulty with is the type of language used by several very vocal breeders, that only a select few are 'pure' enough to be considered real Dexters. Nothing wrong, in fact a good thing, to keep lines distinct. But it can be done without the need to make one's chosen line be seen as "special" by the unrelenting attacks on others.
June 29 at 9:07pm · Like
Barbara Netti Here is what Beryl had to say in 2005 Woodmagic, nov 13, 2005
"In the beginning polls were not recorded, so the Herd Book does not provide an answer. Pam assured me all Esmeralda’s calves were polled. I agree that any introduction from another breed means the reduction of Dexter genes, but discriminating by horns or the lack of them does not provide the answer."
June 29 at 9:10pm · Like · 3
Paul Duke Have to agree with Beryl on that. We are fortunate to live in the modern age with DNA testing so we don't have to guess.
June 29 at 9:19pm · Edited · Like · 1
Mike Lord I often pondered what Beryl meant when she said "consider the source"......the conversation was dropped, it was the end of a long day. Total interpretation. Beryl was not the type of person to gossip about fellow breeders, careful with her words. Two things, did she mean the source of the gene or the person who introduced polled in the North America? I'll never know. I have never claimed "purity" in my herd, I know better after being a Director and hearing all of the problems breeders in my Region experienced. Others do claim purity. I was on the farm of a top long time breeder and the fences were down and two bulls bellowing at each other with the cows. Woke me up to how some breeders lacked infrastructure on their farms. I have some of those offspring from years ago. They have been genotyped for generations now and parent verified......I laugh about the scene now. You really don't think the beautiful Dexter horns aren't special, unique, amongst cattle breeds? Shaun
June 29 at 9:20pm · Like · 2
Denise Harvey have a look at the spanish fighting bulls horns hmmm
June 29 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
Hans Peterson Mike, we have several black Dexter cows with horns. We'll have to send you some photos of them. Absolutely beautiful!!
June 29 at 9:22pm · Like
Marion Clements No doubt horns are beautiful. But impractical for most smallholders who do a lot of close work with the cows. I'm not about to breed for polled at this stage of my life, I choose semen based on other traits to try for the best match for the cow. But if I could wave a magic wand and have all the calves naturally hornless, it would be a blessing for them.
June 29 at 9:28pm · Like · 3
Nadine Taylor If I want a Dexter I want it to look like a Dexter......Just saying
June 29 at 11:52pm · Like · 2
Jill Woodruff Random thoughts. It sounds like Australia's registry has sorted it out. I only found one UK registry and it allows polled. My two polled dexters have Celtic markers, isn't that Irish? Other breed registires I've googled are focused on the future and not the past. All breeds have changed since the early specimens. A Corriente/Criollo bull in black looks just like a Dexter to me and the description fits too. The magic wand to hornless is here, its genetic testing. It is great to preserve but that is probably why they were almost lost. Better to let some modernization to occur so it isn't repeated. It is worth looking at other registries for the US to find ways to resolve the dispute and move to the future instead of dwelling on the past.
June 29 at 11:55pm · Like · 1
Mike Lord Jill, I don't think that is the reason they almost became extinct.......again....wealthy American "gentry" wanted a unique, cutesy breed on their acres. They were copying the English estates idea of park cattle. Their estates are and were huge so cattle and other species roamed the acreage. Historically, the early imports did not start out in a back yard kept in by one strand of barbed wire. The Clove Brook estate on the Hudson River is an example......takes your breath away. They all had hired help......lots of it. Just looking at them didn't help promoting them, numbers dropped. Eventually Dexters became available to the "commoners" financially. Numbers remained low and steady for several decades. When Dexters became more available, numbers increased and then exploded in the 90's. I have always believed that in order for the breed to prosper they have to be used.......and that means marketing milk products and beef. An owner with Dexter pets never impresses me as much as an owner who is successfully marketing those products. That is what keeps the breed exposed to the public, and thereby influences the demand for more Dexter product. Marketing is a whole different ball game for discussion.........Shaun
June 30 at 7:25am · Like · 7
Sheri Palko Shaun has a good point. And as much as I hate to admit it, showing is a fantastic marketing tool. I dislike showing. But I do it some because it legitimizes the breed to those who don't know better. So showing does help support the breed. On the flip side I believe it also encourages characteristics that aren't truly "dexter". Because most US judges are meat judges who are not familiar with Dexters (apparently "dexter judges" don't exist), the dexter in the ring who is frequently rewarded is that which is the biggest on not necessarily the most correct. Sad, but true. So while showing is a form of marketing, I believe it also encourages incorrect breeding in some cases - another two edged sword.
June 30 at 7:45am · Like · 7
Jan O'Dell Bothwell On the showing -- I have to jump in here and agree with Sheri -- I used to raise Oberhasli dairy goats -- a "Mid size breed" .. but in the show ring I would constantly hear: " she's very nice but not as long and tall as".... very frustrating when it is comparing apples and oranges .. and just as Sheri said .. some breeders started 'adding' into their lines some genetics to fit that one standard all breeds were being judged against. Maybe instead of showing to win a ribbon, breeders should consider "exhibition" showing: displaying a beautiful Dexter with lots of information available to the public?
June 30 at 9:52am · Like · 3
Mike Lord A great website (which obviously early Dexter breeders didn't have) has contributed to promoting the Dexter. Ours is as good as most, could be improved, and really attracts inquiries. The majority of calls asking about Dexters are a result of that website......they see the cleanliness, productivity of the farms, and of course photos of all the livestock especially Dexters in a natural habitat. Makes a difference. Shaun
June 30 at 10:38am · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Jill - Simply put. When Dexter cattle were gathered and organized into a breed, they were a horned breed small in stature based on their dwarf genetics. The Kerry breed was organized at the same time and very, very similar in appearance so I believe the non-carrier Dexters were most likely added to the Kerry breed. ( This seems to have substance based on a recent DNA project in Ireland) So the long legged/ longer faced animals were called Kerry, the short dwarfs with the wide dished heads were Dexters. Once the pedigrees were established the non-carrier offspring of the Dexters likely grew in numbers or may have been culled as early photos primarily show dwarf cattle. The were a niche breed always small in number.
June 30 at 10:38am · Like · 3
Judy Sponaugle Note: AT no time in history has upgrading been permitted on American Dexter farms. However, in the late 80's the first upgraded bull was imported to get the RED color mostly lost to the American herd. Lucifer of Knotting. Members were not told in a clear and understandable format about the outcrossed genetics. He took over 50% of the pedigrees. In the early 1990's the bull Saltaire Platinum, POLLED was imported. American breeders were told he was a PUREBRED bull from a novel mutation. LIES! An investigation of the herdbooks and other information shows error/fraud with the registration of the granddam, another granddam, and neither Saltaire Platinum nor his sire Migh Poldark qualified for registration in the original herdbooks based on existing rules at the time. So . . .. the purebred American herd, where upgrading is NOTpermitted, now has over 85% if all Animals with upgraded genetics. For those of us who love the breed. . . our foundation genetics are being CHANGED forever by genes from Angus, and Jersey, and we don't know what else because the English didn't record the breeds involved.
June 30 at 10:46am · Like · 2
Sheri Palko You know... I always hear Lucifer brought up in the same context as Salataire, yet Lucifer was horned. What is the correlation?
June 30 at 10:52am · Edited · Like
Jill Woodruff I wish other newbies and other countries would join in more. I'm in Mo surrounded by corn and cattle. A man moved to our area w/ Dexters and tried to market grassfed beef, then had to turn to the salebarn, where black baldies prevail. I heard him numeruous times complain about 'getting nothing'. The 90's were a time when money was rolling and animal breeding of anything became lucrative. If you would look at your marketing, it is going FOR the small guy, the niche guy, the hobby guy. Angus, the Business Breed and Jersey are marketing results. As a newbie, just look who you are attracting, people wanting a family cow or to raise their own beef. It just isn't about showing it is about meeting a need.
June 30 at 10:53am · Like · 2
Sheri Palko I have only one cow who does not have Salataire somewhere and have thought more than once how nice it would be to breed her to a bull who did not go back to Salataire. But the logistics if that for only one cow is simply not practical... I finally gave up my search and quit fighting it. She had had 3 calves now... Always bred to a different bull with Salataire somewhere. Hard to avoid
June 30 at 10:58am · Like · 1
Barbara Netti So has anyone been able to find out the "facts" on Parndon Bullfinch? Wasn't he also an upgrade? I heard to a Guernsey. Who knows maybe that's one of the possibilities on where the white spotting gene came from
June 30 at 11:11am · Edited · Like · 1
Jill Woodruff Judy that was a great summary of the history. The pic I've seen of Lucifer looks like Jersey influence to me without a doubt. But I cannot believe a a group of breed enthusiasts continue to dwell in the 80's & 90's. No wonder the breed is divided and struggling.
June 30 at 11:09am · Like · 1
Mike Lord My experience is, once you have established your market, based on quality of the product, it has helped to produce beef from an unusual breed. We set up cork boards at Farmers Markets with one board being a complete photo display of the Dexters......all ages, all weather conditions. Draws attention which leads into discussion of the breeds beef qualities including not being necessary to use antibiotics or hormones. Dexters don't necessarily translate to limited small markets once you are established. It becomes a "be careful what you wish for" as the demand is there. Right now in order to finish the two Farmer Markets we participle in during the summer ( we do one winter market too) we need at least twenty more finished steers and do not have them. A dilemma! Shaun
June 30 at 11:10am · Like · 1
Sheri Palko We have the same dilemma here.... I simply cannot produce enough steers. Consequently I am selling weaned heifers and buying 4-5 weaned steers to replace them.
June 30 at 11:13am · Like · 2
Mike Lord White spotting has been basically settled through the centuries ago known history of Viking white spotted cattle brought to the British Isles. Patti Adams has researched white and other cattle historians suspect the same. S
June 30 at 11:14am · Like
Jill Woodruff Shaun sounds like you have a very successful marketing strategy, are you in an urban area? Farmer's Markets are marketing locally grown and not trying to compete commercially. It is a perfect example of a bigger carcass would help:)
June 30 at 11:14am · Like
Mike Lord Not really......luckily near a college town, Fredonia, ten miles away. It's fifty miles to Buffalo but we have avoided setting up there as sales here are active enough. None of us are keen on that drive for a market establishment. We sell privately (ha...See More
June 30 at 11:19am · Like
Barbara Netti Shaun what have you heard about Parndon Bullfinch being an upgrade to a Guernsey?
June 30 at 11:19am · Like
Mike Lord Yes. I don't have knowledge one way or the other........at least not decisive. I did own for a short while the only living son of Parndon Bullfinch (I say short time because he was a carrier and someone else wanted him to take their chances breeding as...See More
June 30 at 11:26am · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Barbara, You have your facts wrong. It is his sire who was supposedly an outcross to a Guernsey bull. That is very much discussed and documented in variouis chat sites on the internet, and it also was proven by science to be mere rumor - because Par...See More
June 30 at 11:29am · Like
Barbara Netti Sheri Palko, there has been on occasion a Dexter Judge who has owned Dexters, I can't remember her name but I met her at one of the AGMs and she was from New Zealand. The larger Dexters have just recently started winning in the show ring, in the past ...See More
June 30 at 11:32am · Like
Sheri Palko Judy or Barb.... Or anyone. .. so what is the history/theories on Lucifer?
June 30 at 11:33am · Edited · Like
Judy Sponaugle I don't accept either rumor. Why are you willing to insinuate and publish a rumor you know was disproven on the internet and yet spend years trying to discredit another breeder who relies solely on documented herd book records? The actual probl...See More
June 30 at 11:34am · Like · 1
Paul Duke Nice post Judy if you just scratch the "why" question. No need to start anything.
June 30 at 11:37am · Like
Judy Sponaugle Barb - The white spotting genetics were in the breed from the beginning. Because the breed standards did not permit white markings behond the udder and organs of origin, I assume animals were culled. In the earliest herd books however there are cows ...See More
June 30 at 11:39am · Like · 2
Jill Woodruff I will ask why worry, how many generations ago are those issues? you get half, quarter, 8th, 16th....it's time to let it go otherwise some of us just aren't going to shell out money for any registry because it might be the wrong bloodline? This feud is not helping anybody is it?
June 30 at 11:41am · Like · 2
Barbara Netti Judy I am asking just a question, I have heard nothing about Pardon Bullfinch in the last few years so please don't get all huffy!
June 30 at 11:42am · Like
Paul Duke You too Barb, if you and Judy want to throw insults at each other use messaging, not here.
June 30 at 11:43am · Edited · Like
Barbara Netti Paul, with all do respect. Where did I insult anyone. If I new how to do private messaging I would message you ask you this question. instead of posting it.
June 30 at 11:48am · Like
Mike Lord We've all been doing well, an interesting discussion to me anyway........I learn something every day. Shaun
June 30 at 11:49am · Like · 1
Jill Woodruff What I have learned is that some REGISTERED UK cattle came to the US and contaminated purity here way back in the 80's and early 90's.
June 30 at 11:52am · Edited · Like
Judy Sponaugle To those who say why does it matter? It is like an heirloom seed. They are protected and preserved because of genetic value NOT present in modern seeds. That is why it is important ot preserve original Dexter genetics, because the characteristics...See More
June 30 at 11:53am · Like · 1
Paul Duke Ok Barb, and I would prefer you message me with that question.
June 30 at 11:54am · Like
Judy Sponaugle Shaun, They put Max ( son of Bullfinch) down last year. He is however collected for international distribution. He was a gorgeous bull and semen is available!
June 30 at 11:57am · Like · 1
Marion Clements What has not been mentioned is that Lucifer was from the Atlantic Finbar line, and Finbar was the product of a (failed as they didn't understand the mode of inheritance way back then..) breeding experiment to try to eliminate chondro from the breed, as...See More
June 30 at 11:59am · Edited · Like · 1
Barbara Netti I guess I still have that unique calving ease trait in my Dexters, because I've only had to pull one calf out off over 110 calves born.
June 30 at 11:58am · Like · 3
Jill Woodruff I agree Judy. Didn't someone say there are only 500 some of the legacy/pure left? That is a very small breeding pool regardless of anything. And, very interesting you mention problems, when the very Dexter foundation is based on dwarfism. Usually cross...See More
June 30 at 11:59am · Like · 2
Sheri Palko So will someone please define what animals in a pedigree are thought to disqualify a line from being pure? And why?
June 30 at 12:04pm · Edited · Like
Paul Duke Goog point Jill, unscrupulous breeders can add in other breed genitics anytime. Probably a good idea to require not only sire verification but dam also if this is to be prevented.
June 30 at 12:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
Paul Duke Sheri, check the bottom of the legacy home page -
www.dextercattleamericanlegacy.info/legacyhome.htmlJune 30 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko Wow. I have never noticed that list before. Thank you Paul.
June 30 at 12:11pm · Like · 2
Marion Clements So Saturn of Knotting is now on the suspect list?? Doesnt say it on the Legacy page, but it is implied. Saturn of Knotting is in the pedigree of Elmwood Mackoy, who is considered Original Population. Here's the link:http://www.uksireservices.com/siredata.asp?ID=MACKOY
June 30 at 12:21pm · Like
Midhill Farm We will always dwell on these topics because we can't prove anything beyond any doubt from years ago. Rumors from other countries, bad record keeping from some breeders, the English registry had and still has some inconsistent entries in it. Moving for...See More
June 30 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Sheri - Breed associations historically and currently issue pedigre certificates at the time of registration. Unless a pedigree is amended by it's issuing authority or science proves it to be in error it is the only record available to determine puri...See More
June 30 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle To the question of purity. The Dexter breed was only established in 1876 with the original herdbook entries in England, that being absorbed by the Royal Dublin Society a few years later and included in their herdbook # 1. ( This herdbook and a number of years after are available on Google and for sale at Abebooks.com).
June 30 at 12:24pm · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Oops hit the wrong button. Animals were included into the breed records "upon inspection" so that they had to "look" like the breed standard ( phenotype) have horns, and one would assume be healthy and a good speciman. This practice also took place...See More
June 30 at 12:28pm · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle This upgrading program known as the "appendix registry" began in 1944 and continued until the 2000's when it was discontinued. It relied on three generations ( A B C) in the appendix category and then the fourth generation was registered as purebred. The first generation A would use a registered Dexter and it could be bred to ANY breed and the calf was registered in the A category.
June 30 at 12:30pm · Like · 2
Jill Woodruff That is a very good study of history and breeding philosophy. I think there are two names, phenotype which is appearance and I can't remember the term for line/pedigree. Now we also have genotype available. But is this the ADCA and not all Dexter registries?
June 30 at 12:48pm · Like
Judy Sponaugle The first genotyping was established by Legacy with the Legacy effort to preserve the earliest American bloodlines, ( so few in number they could mostly be found only in one herd) and those of Woodmagic which were imported to Canada in 1978 and then ex...See More
June 30 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko You know what would be awesome (Judy will kill me for suggesting this). It would be great if we could get pedigree from the legacy database in a less pretty form such as excel, but one that would permit us to see ALL generations as far back as they are recorded.
June 30 at 1:38pm · Like
Sheri Palko Sorry the software engineer in me just couldn't resist... and I'm so anal I have all of my printed out (and it's a pain!)
June 30 at 1:38pm · Like
Judy Sponaugle Sheri, It can be done but it ain't pretty! You might know . . .. of all people. . . I'd be more anal than you wanting to print out extended pedigrees and asked about it. I will find the info and send it to you by email.
June 30 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
Sheri Palko I simply have all of mine entered in excel. Once a herds foundation stock is entered it's very easy from there...
June 30 at 2:25pm · Like
Little Heritage Farm Was the Colorado herd a traditional herd. I thought it was supposed to be one of the biggest legacy herds in the States? I do not know if this is true or not. I was just told that and wonder if someone can clarify it??
June 30 at 4:13pm · Like
Judy Sponaugle The Colorado herd was established in the mid 1960's from THREE cows with the first name Lady and Peerless Irish the bull. Later another cow was added Juletta Dee, and in the early 70's a new bull from the Bradys Run herd. FIVE animals. At that poin...See More
June 30 at 7:05pm · Like · 2
Judy Sponaugle Just as a note - The Colorado herd and the Woodmagic herds are the only two herds I know of that were closed and so intensely line bred from within. Would you like to see a current photo of a Colorado cow?
June 30 at 7:06pm · Like · 5
Cory Blystone i would Judy out of curiosity
June 30 at 7:07pm · Like · 1
Shauna Eastwood Yes, photo pls
June 30 at 9:01pm · Like
Paul Duke Me too
June 30 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
Alicia A. Bentley me too.
June 30 at 9:52pm · Like · 1
Little Heritage Farm Didn't the Colorado herd have a lot of the white spotting gene in it? The person who said they were legacy said they had a lot of white. Don't you have pictures of that?
June 30 at 10:10pm · Like
Judy Sponaugle Holly. Yes a couple of the Colorado animals had white markings. I contacted to Ted Olsen at the Univ of Fla because
July 1 at 12:05am · Like · 1
Judy Sponaugle Continued. I contacted Ted Olsen. He is a color researcher in cattle and authored.a chapter on color in the book "Genetics of Color". He said it was to be expected in a herd with such a small gene pool and so inbred for years. He gave it a name but I cannot recall off the top. He told me to talk to Dr Phil Sponenberg of VT but he was involved with horse color research at the time. I have a couple cow with white in the area of the udder, and just discovered within the past two weeks that a bull I used last year was carrying recessive when I just had a little heifer born with white on her lower throat/brisket area.
July 1 at 12:13am · Like · 1
