Kirk's Research Theory

[jamshundred]

Kirk:  >>>Correction:

While there were NO POLLED BULLS on the farm that bred Godstone Esmeralda in 1983 and the only breeding bull was Woodmagic Pine Martin, it looks like there was a POLLED FEMALE on that farm. Appendix B cow, Finney Jubilee, was heterozygous polled and lived on the Godstone Farm with Broadridge Dawn (the non-polled dam of record for Godstone Esmeralda). Finney Jubilee's dam was Vycanny Orphan Annie, A239, a polled Appendix A Dexter, that was sired by a registered polled Dairy Shorthorn bull, Swinsongrange Challenger, #0222549.

Godstone Esmeralda was VERY Woodmagic dexter appearing and was nearly 100% certainly sired by Woodmagic Pine Martin...

But it could be possible that Godstone Esmeralda was out of the polled Appendix B cow, Finney Jubilee, B182.

At the Godstone herd, they had three black Dexter heifers, all sired by Woodmagic Pine Martin, born within 6 days in May 1984:

C242 Godstone Emily F 11/MAY/1984

F10532 Godstone Effie F 07/MAY/1984

F10531 Godstone Esmeralda F 05/MAY/1984

The dam of record for Godstone Esmeralda, F10531, is Broadridge Dawn, F09211, a black 1977 cow. The dam of record for Godstone Emily, C242, is Finney Jubilee, B182 (polled)

By having three black heifers born in the same week at the Godstone herd, all sired by the same bull (Woodmagic Pine Martin), it would have been very easy to mix them up if they weren't tagged as soon as they were born. Since all three dams calved in the same week, it would have been very likely that they were put into the same area, so the opportunity for the cows to switch calves, even without the owner knowing, was a real possibility.

The reason that Godstone Esmeralda was Dexter size and of Dexter character was because she would have been an Appendix C cow, being the daughter of Finney Jubilee, an Appendix B cow and by a purebred Dexter bull (Woodmagic Pine Martin).

So take your pick.... Either Godstone Esmeralda's polledness was due to a fresh mutation, or she was the daughter of the polled cow Finney Jubilee, and was switched at birth... I'm leaning toward the latter... the chance of a polled mutation is perhaps 1 in 20,000.... the chance of two black calves born within days of each other getting mixed up might be 1 in 50.

Moved to a new thread.

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

Interesting info and theory. Certfies the 99.2% purity ADCA was willing to confirm and the source. Did I spell Patsie right? Strange though the importer has been remarkably silent on this for months now.

I agree there is an introgression, just find it interesting that it is being adjusted to increase the degree of purity. There have been several theories out of England. This might be the best. It could explain the red that Saltaire Platinum carries, and the excessive white that comes in on some of these lines. . . especially when the presence of another imported bull is in the pedigree, and it gives an easy answer for the polled.

Hooray! I am all for this theory. It solves everything, and I DO mean everything! That is. . . . if the rules are followed as they should be.

Judy

[cascade]

Judy, perhaps you could present this information to DCS and ask them to consider a correction...
Or at least you can put a corrected version in your legacy system with a note.

Duncan MacIntyre of the UK had this to say about it, and there are a bunch of polled animals in the UK that descend from the polled milking shorthorn bull "Swinsongrange Challenger"


"Postby Duncan MacIntyre » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:18 pm
Some thoughts on polling. There are probably more sources of polling in dexters than is generally realised. Unless all calves had been DNA profiled prior to registaration in the past, which clearly did not happen, there are likely to be instances of mistaken parentage. Mutations causing polling are going to be extremely rare, so rare in fact that we can probably discount this as a source of new polled animals. That polled individuals have existed without being recorded or indeed recognised is without doubt true. Croitachonie Bruin, a red polled bull who left a very large number of descendants in the north east of England and later in the south, was son of Cuerden Cindy. She had previously produced a polled calf in a different ownership, and as I understand it the council of the time refused to register it. But in fact Cindy herself was polled. I bought her as a thirteen year old cow, with Bruin at foot. When my enquiries revealed that the calf had not been dehorned, but was in fact polled, I looked very closely at Cindy and she did indeed have a polled head. Her pedigree goes back to an appendix animal sired by a shorthorn bull. The shorthorn bull, Swinsongrange Challenger, was in fact polled."

While ALL Dexters have scores of non-dexters in their distant backgrounds, it's nice to know that the non-Dexter in Saltaire Platinum's background is very likely an excellent Milking Shorthorn AI Bull.

[cascade]

Here's the pedigree of  "Swinsongrange Challenger"

www.shorthornonline.co.uk/%28S%28vmfkzsctbwypwkp5n1tlwaad%29%29/ShorthornAnimal.aspx?Ident=69297

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

I think there is already some action being worked on " over yonder" to correct mistakes in the records. 

I believe that on this side of the pond the leadership has restarted the clock on the statute of limitations for the collusion that took place in keeping the truth about these introgressed genetics hidden from the membership until finally admitting last year the truth that there was introgression.  There have been many breeders damaged by having to compete with animals they could not breed on their own farms in America, not to mention the animals themselves that have been lost to the breed due to unfair competition with animals purported to be something they were not by members and leadership.  There has been no effort to mitigate or find solution to resolve the situation they perpetrated either.

Judy

[jamshundred]

Judy, perhaps you could present this information to DCS and ask them to consider a correction...

Or at least you can put a corrected version in your legacy system with a note.

Duncan MacIntyre of the UK had this to say about it, and there are a bunch of polled animals in the UK that descend from the polled milking shorthorn bull "Swinsongrange Challenger"


"Postby Duncan MacIntyre » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:18 pm

Some thoughts on polling. There are probably more sources of polling in dexters than is generally realised. Unless all calves had been DNA profiled prior to registaration in the past, which clearly did not happen, there are likely to be instances of mistaken parentage. Mutations causing polling are going to be extremely rare, so rare in fact that we can probably discount this as a source of new polled animals. That polled individuals have existed without being recorded or indeed recognised is without doubt true. Croitachonie Bruin, a red polled bull who left a very large number of descendants in the north east of England and later in the south, was son of Cuerden Cindy. She had previously produced a polled calf in a different ownership, and as I understand it the council of the time refused to register it. But in fact Cindy herself was polled. I bought her as a thirteen year old cow, with Bruin at foot. When my enquiries revealed that the calf had not been dehorned, but was in fact polled, I looked very closely at Cindy and she did indeed have a polled head. Her pedigree goes back to an appendix animal sired by a shorthorn bull. The shorthorn bull, Swinsongrange Challenger, was in fact polled."



While ALL Dexters have scores of non-dexters in their distant backgrounds, it's nice to know that the non-Dexter in Saltaire Platinum's background is very likely an excellent Milking Shorthorn AI Bull.

Kirk,  I changed the SP pedigree yesterday where Godstone Esmeralda is entered.  I gave it thought and you were right.  I left the entries that are recorded in the herd book and for which I had verification and left off any parentage for Esmeralda. . . . because there are now two theories, and your's ( or Duncan's) makes for good reasoning and mutation is simply not scientifcally supported.  As I said yesterday, it most assuredly answers the questions about color, and white spotting and phenotype, but it does still create a sticky situation if rules were followed.  

I will get the herd book page that lists Esmeralda's birth and copy here.    

I commend you for thinking outside the box many of you were placed in by those who knew better and being willing to look for, and accept a more plausible explanation.

Judy



 

[lakeportfarms]

I haven't really dug into this extensively, but on the surface this seems to be a very plausible theory and as Judy says, out of the box thinking by Kirk.  I could easily see the calves being mixed up with calving dates so close together.  Is Kirk coming over to the "Dark Side" by hanging out with us too much?   I'm looking forward to seeing here the first oversized photo he posts of a dwarf cow grazing happily in his pasture!  


Sort of related, a lot of red polled Dexters that are heavy with polled on both sides of the pedigree seem to run A2/A2.  Obviously with a lot of the same animals showing up it's going to be the case anyway, but I wonder if the Milking Shorthorn as a breed has a high percentage of animals as homozygous A2 which started the trend?

[cascade]

Remember... We still have two competing theories here and they are both still valid. It's just that one is much more likely than the other. The fresh polled mutation may have occurred, but the odds are perhaps 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 20,000. The other theory (the swapping of two black calves, one of which could have a polled gene from a polled shorthorn great-grandsire) may have odds of 1 in 50.

Milking Shorthorns do carry A2 genetics, but my skimpy research shows that they have about the same rate of A2 as Dexters, perhaps a little less. But let's take a look at the chance that ANY of the shorthorn genetics would have been passed down through the generations.

Keep in mind, that because the polled gene is dominant and always displays, one can select for this gene to force it to pass down through the generations, while other genes not specifically selected-for are washed out.

Swinsongrange Challenger (registered POLLED Shorthorn AI Bull)
Vycanny Orphan Annie (50% chance of having any particular shorthorn gene)
Finney Jubilee (25% chance of having any particular shorthorn gene)
Godstone Esmeralda (12% chance) 1 in 8 chance of having any particular shorthorn gene
Migh Poldark (6% chance) 1 in 16
Saltaire Platinum (3% chance of having any particular shorthorn gene other than polled)
S.P. Son or Daughter (roughly 1 in 64 chance of having any shorthorn genes other than the polled gene)
S.P. Grandson or Granddaughter (roughly 1 in 128 chance of having any shorthorn genes other than the polled gene)
S.P. Greatgrandson or GreatGranddaughter (1 in 256 chance of having any shorthorn genes at all other than the polled gene)

Under this theory, there was only a 1 in 32 chance that Saltaire Platinum inherited any genes at all other than the polled gene, from his likely great, great, great polled grandsire (the polled shorthorn bull).

Including linebreeding, most folks who have Saltaire Platinum genetics are at about the great-grandson level or less of S.P. genetics (so most are at 3% - 12% Saltaire Platinum). That means that there is only a 1 in 256 chance to 1 in 1000 chance that their animals have any shorthorn genetics other than the polled gene itself.

Further, keep in mind that Shorthorns and Dexters likely share 99.999% of the same genes. There are likely only a tiny few genes in Shorthorns that you couldn't already find somewhere in the "purest" of Dexters, and remember too that the "purest" of Dexters likely have a good number of Shorthorns in their distant backgrounds in the Dexter foundation stock.