FB page

[jamshundred]

Most of you are aware of the new FB page started by Michael Foor-Pessin.       For those who are not:  it is:
TRADITIONALLY HORNED DEXTER CATTLE

if you use FB please join and support the preservation effort of traditional breeders. 

It it is beginning to feel as if all the cogs have shifted into place and more and more breeders ARE getting it!  We are on the very cusp of losing something extraordinary...and now there IS hope we are turning it around. 

Exciting times!   


Judy

[lakeportfarms]

The more attention this all gets the better, IMHO. I think all most are asking for is that there is some recognition and equal stature given to those Dexters that have long been the basis of the breed. The English designate "Experimental" and "Upgrade" in their registrations, am I correct?

[wvdexters]

It's a great page!!

[lonecowhand]

Judy, I think thanks to your and a few others' efforts on their behalf, traditional horned Dexters ARE receiving the recognition that will be important to their preservation in the long haul.
I'd say, thanks to you all,we are on the cusp of preserving and protecting something extraordinary!

Bill

[cascade]

I support this if it stays honest, and scientific, and positive.

I have people calling me regularly who are looking for horned dexters. I'm working with one person who wants to fence his place with hedge rows for fencing and wants horned dexters.... I love the concept. I may sell him my one and only horned dexter at some point, after I get a polled daughter or two out of her.

He learned about Dexters from me, and liked my horned Dexter.

I had another person buy a horned dexter (out of two heterozygous polled dexters) from me a few years ago because they were interested in Biodynamic Farming in which there is a farming ritual that involves the use of cattle horns (they use the horns from slaughtered steers for a fertilization technique).

Some people want horns, some people insist on polled..... both types of folks can coexist nicely.

I'm happy that there is a movement to preserve horned Dexters for those who want to raise them.

[lonecowhand]

It's the genetics upon which the horns grow that need to be saved!

[cascade]

May 22, 2015 23:29:25 GMT lonecowhand said:

It's the genetics upon which the horns grow that need to be saved!

Due to genetic drift and the loss of 50% of genes each generation, you can't save genetics unless you precisely identify, in terms of genotype and/or phenotype, those genetic features you wish to save, and then you must select for those features generation after generation (or they will be lost).   It's very challenging to save old genetics (except on paper, which is NOT effective and NOT meaningful).

Beyond horns, do you have a specific list of features/genes you're attempting to save?

[lakeportfarms]

Kirk, we're sorta busy over on the FB site to get into all this here. You know one of the traits I'm trying to save...hint: You don't have them.

[cascade]

May 23, 2015 10:30:56 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Kirk, we're sorta busy over on the FB site to get into all this here. You know one of the traits I'm trying to save...hint: You don't have them.

The ONLY trait/genes i'm missing on our farm is the Chondro and PHA lethal genes.... we've got all the other good traditional stuff. 

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

Simple truism-you would not have Dexters without the dwarf gene. It isn't too lethal......the breed has survived while the non carriers did not.  It is the traits that are connected to chondro that we value.  Your short cattle are missing at least one of the most valuable ones.  

The non carriers will be doomed to the same fate as the KERRY cattle with time

judy

[wvdexters]

Kirk you are right when you say you have some good original Dexter stuff in your herd. But unfortunately the truth is you have so much more. All of the upgrading/outcrossed genetics are mixed in there too. This is the problem.

[cascade]

All traditional dexters have tons of non-dexters in their backgrounds.

Did you know that the Peerless Herd was primarily a Shorthorn Cattle Herd?    Peerless had relatively few dexters compared to their large shorthorn herd.   It's hard to say how many shorthorns found their way into the backgrounds of American Traditional Horned Dexters.  

The good news is that ongoing selection for dexter traits, will keep traditional dexters looking and behaving like dexters even though they all have some non-dexters in their backgrounds. 



PS.  The polled gene is simply the best way to dehorn dexters.   Horns look great on Dexters, but if you must dehorn, then you should use the polled gene to do it.  Physical dehorning is being banned in some places.      

[jamshundred]

Kirk

i AM really disappointed in you.  First off, I have said before I think you are being "used" and I am just annoyed enough at this moment to tell YOU .....to tell the witch that has been feeding you the propaganda you post to have the courage to do her own darn dirty work.   I have never once in a public format suggested that any animal is not what appears unless there IS a herd book entry which supports it.   To cast aspersions on the herd that saved Dexters in America is really crass.  Too bad the person who fed you that little historical tidbit did not have the courage to risk her own reputation and say it.   I am a researcher Kirk.  I do not think for a moment you have the same amount of years, time, or super-duper search engine for some of the information you have posted....but I sure as heck know who does!!   The last person who was used to this degree, ( sorry-you are not the first) was dumped when the usefulness ran its course and ended up leaving Dexters, completely disheartened by betrayal.  

Do NOT do the dirty work of others!   

I would expect ADCA to denounce the very disappointing insinuations taking place here and elsewhere.......except......they started it with the Sheppy article.  Sadly, the leadership style has not changed a bit.  What a disgusting pattern!

judy

[cascade]

I support saving the best registered horned dexters. If their pedigrees aren't perfect, they're still worth saving.... If the best of them have some accidental outcrosses in their backgrounds, they're still worth saving.

It's their great features that are worth saving... The pedigree is useful, but secondary.


PS.   If you google "John Logsdon Cattle"  (peerless herd) you get more hits on his extensive Shorthorn Cattle herd, than his relatively insignificant hobby dexter herd.  The good news is that shorthorn cattle are a very nice breed and very compatible with dexters, so if Peerless Dexters have a little shorthorn in them, it's not a problem.    

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

I am willing to wager I am the only person on this board to have owned Peerless cows.   My favorite breeding line is the Bally line which descends from Peerless though a couple of other lines in my herd also descend as well.  John Logsden did not come by his first Dexters easily and he gathered and saved the major breeds in America, and it was through his reduction sale that Dexters went mainstream.  I believe him to have been a man of integrity.  I have heard repeatedly for ten years breeders of polled descendents of a GRADE bull that did not qualify for registration under the rules and regulations of that time or this time,  consistently try to elevate their descending animals by insinuating against the horned herd in the US.   To have witnessed members of leadership set the standard for these insinuations is truly disappointing to me because it gave permission to carry on!  The detriment and demise of the heritage horned Dexter breed stems directly from a leadership incapable of leading.  

I have liked animals I have seen in your herd and I think your plans for your herd are good ones.  I just do not think they belong in the horned Dexter herd Kirk, that they should have been kept as their own seperate breed.   Like the White Dexters and the multitude of other breeds developed on the backs of the Dwarf cattle.   That would have been just fine.  The market could have chosen.  Instead, in less than 15 years this breed has lost hundreds of cows to the slaughter houses because they were dwarf carriers ( Dexters are a dwarf breed) or they were horned.  Genetic engineering.   Surely you know what has happened is wrong.  It is wrong to support wrong!

Judy

[cascade]

I support preserving horned dexters. I support preserving important useful heritage traits in farm animals. We have a heritage farm and that's pretty much all we do. In our Icelandic Sheep, some are polled and some are horned, yet they are all 100% pure from Iceland and isolated there for 1000 years. Some of our American Guinea hogs grow big tusks, and some don't, but they are 100% pure.

One person contacted me who was proud of his traditional black horned dexters but he was told by the radical preservation fanatics that his beautiful traditional black horned dexter was no longer considered traditional by the radical purists, because his cow had a distant polled ancestor. He was thinking of slaughtering his beautiful horned cow even though she was a perfect traditional specimen. I explained to him that polled genetics can NOT be passed down to horned animals. The polled gene can NOT hide. He felt betrayed by the radical purists because they never explained that to him before. He felt he had been tricked into believing that the polled gene could hide in horned animals.

It seems like your radical purism is driving good people away from horned traditional dexters and the only people who are sticking around your group of radical purists are a tiny shrinking handful of folks with bad attitudes and poor cooperation skills.

I'll bet you'd be FAR more successful if you simply promoted the traits you feel are traditional... you might even get some current polled breeders to move toward those traditional traits. You might start by encouraging polled breeders to stop de-horning their occasional horned calves if they are using a heterozygous polled bull.  Encourage them to find homes for those horned animals.   It's the traits that are important, not some distant paper illusion. Yes, pedigrees are useful, but they are secondary to the animal standing out in the field.

When I select for dexters, I try to select for the traits that folks feel are traditional. I like to think my cows are just as traditional as any de-horned "legacy" dexters. If more purists would help educate people concerning those traits..., you'll win them over, and in time, you'll see more of those traits show up in both horned and polled dexters.

I hope the radical purists can turn their attention to traits and physical descriptions and NOT drive more folks away by paying too close of attention to distant ancestors on pedigrees.

[genebo]

Karrie,

You said that kirk has some good original Dexter stuff, but that is not true. It only takes a few minutes to check that. Every single animal that he has registered with the ADCA has Saltaire Platinum in it recent background. By no stretch of the imagination could that be called good original stuff. No matter what he claims.

He says, "I support preserving horned Dexters." No he doesn't. He is fully committed to polled genetics. His story of the Platinum descendant that couldn't qualify to be called Traditional was proper. It's only in kindergarten that everybody gets a gold star, even if they fail.

He says that he wants us "radical purists" to accept cattle as being fine dexters if they have good traits. After going to the auction, picking up a good looking animal, you should be able to register it as a Dexter? How disrespectful of the breed.

Kirk, instead of spending so much time, money and effort undermining the Dexter breed, why don't you join those of us who work within the rules. Could the answer be money? Did you spend a lot buying the wrong stuff and can't afford to do right? Sell your hybrids to others who don't follow rules and get the very best Dexters that meet the rules? You'll sleep better knowing that your contribution to the dexter breed has become a positive instead of a negative.

When thinking up your next derogatory insults try to be rational. There is no state beyond purity. There are an infinite number of states of impurity, but pure is pure. Picking that as your focus for your "radical Purist" label is no better than your past failures.

I am a purist and proud of it. I am a traditionalist and resent you appropriating the label to apply to mongrel cattle. I don't like you claiming to run a heritage farm using non-heritage livestock. You make so many claims that sometimes people think the rational thing, that no one could be wrong about everything, so they don't bother to check. You count on that, don't you.

Ironically enough, it is your zealous need to destroy all that is good about Dexter cattle that has exposed what is truly right and what is truly wrong about the pure and impure cattle registered in the ADCA registry.

I get phone calls, too. People that I don't know call me for aid in finding real, genuine Dexter cattle. They read your rants and react in the best way. The biggest complaint is that traditional Dexters are so very scarce.

One woman answered an on-line ad for traditional Dexters. She said they were HUGE! She had not seen a Dexter before and came close to giving up her goal of getting some traditional Dexters. However, she went home and looked up the pedigrees of the cattle she had seen. That revealed that these weren't traditional Dexters at all, but were Modern animals. She had read the back and forth bickering you love so well, so she knew what a traditional Dexter really was.

Just think, you were responsible for her determination to buy real traditional Dexters. Backfired on you, didn't it. You couldn't sell that lady a subway token, much less a counterfeit dexter.

[wvdexters]

Gene you are entirely right in your statement. The point I was trying to make was that while many of the animals in Kirk's herd have ANCESTORS  from bloodlines that go back to some wonderful quality traditional Dexters, the hard truth is that through SP (a cross breed bull that didn't even qualify for registration and NEVER should have been allowed into the herdbook) these original lines are now so mixed and intermingled with grade stock they have been forever lost to the traditional dexters.  Thanks for pointing that out and helping me be more clear.

[jamshundred]

"Radical purist"  Wow!  I kind of like that moniker.   RADICAL DEXTER PURIST     I think I will make me a T-shirt for the AGM!   LEGACY RADICAL DEXTER PURIST.

I know there are those of you who get very annoyed by Kirk's comments and would have him banned from participation, and you get very annoyed with me for my stance on censorship.  I grew up in the greatest country ever founded by man and the greatness has it's roots in freedom.  Freedom to think, and freedom to express those thoughts verbally or in print. 

I had questions and opinions and facts that most did not want to hear.  I asked, commented, and presented and I annoyed.  Some of you may have forgotten, some of you may not have been active at the time, but there were those who did not like my questions or my commentary and they were, if only briefly, successful in silencing me.  That type of influence is repugnant to me.  It was supported by leadership and that misuse of power is more objectionable.

I have my own positions and opinions yet sometimes they are more clearly defined by the debate between opposing viewpoints, and sometimes they are amended by listening to opposing viewpoints.

That is a prelude to saying that on several occasions on this forum the interaction between Kirk and others has given me perspective it might have taken me a long time to reach on my own, if at all.  This last post Gene made is one of those times.

I have been struck over time by what I consider to be intellectual dishonesty.  If a truth is evident, yet denied, I deem that intellectual dishonesty. 

The easiest comparison to make with regard to what takes place in cattle and is readily accepted is to use the example of pedigreed dogs as many Dexter owners also raise registered dogs.  I see them show photos and I see they are proud of their dogs and their pedigrees.    Is there  a single one of them who would be agreeable to a fellow breeder using an "upgrade" program to improve their particular dog breed?
Why has it been so hard for polled breeders to accept and admit that those of us who are "radical purists" have watched this practice being accepted in a most unique and special heritage cattle breed, so small in number the breed has been genetically engineered and all but been wiped out in less than 20 years. We are labeled and called names for the effort to try and preserve the very small numbers of those that remain.

Gene nailed it.   I see extraordinary GRADE cattle on the floors of auction barns.  Saltaire Platinum was no different than they are.  We cannot ( in the US)  register those sale barn cattle and turn them into Dexters. Yet, no polled breeder seems willing to accept or admit this.  In England they did just this.  They agreed to take a grade animal into the registry.   The rules were broken, and polled breeders are supporting that breach.   

Judy

Judy

[Deleted]

kirk, it is you who betrayed this person by selling your fairy tail. As a side note I would never advise someone to butcher there favorite cow because it did not have a traditional pedigree. It is there decision to make not mine or yours. I have some polled line cows and for now I keep them and register them but every bull calf they have is steered.

 

[lonecowhand]

Judy, I understand your position on censorship, and it is admirable.

The Face book page isn't meant as a forum, isn't looking for opposing viewpoints, rather it is a "call to arms", and looking for action, in response to inaction from the ADCA . It is apparent that arguement will not accomplish anything with those who stand to lose something, either credibility, Power or Funds.

Even if all it succeeds in is getting the category of Traditional Horned Dexters recognized, that will accomplish something!

[lakeportfarms]

Very well said Bill.

[cascade]

It's an illogical call to arms that is focused on paper pedigrees that are full of holes, while NOT paying attention to preserving actual traditional traits.

The extreme illogical focus on certain ancient pedigrees and a lack of focus on physical traits does NOTHING to support traditional features in dexters. It just shows a complete lack of understanding of genetics.

If you really want to preserve traditional traits, then make a list of traditional traits (along with photos) and encourage everyone including polled breeders to consider working to preserve as many of those traits as they can.

Polled and horned dexters can have exactly the same traits, except the horns.  If you don't understand that, then you need to study genetics.

[lonecowhand]

I'm not going to reiterate Gene's perfectly succinct explanation regarding introgressions from other Breeds. We're (at least I'm ) having a hard time thinking you can't fathom this concept. Sorry...

Don't start with me about "all dexters have tons of other breeds", etc.

Take a Great Dane, add a Chiquaqua get a Great Wah-wah. I'm throwing you a bone here! Take it!

Good day, Bill