Seeking Advice...

[bffarms1]

We had a bull calf that passed away yesterday, our first loss.  It was heartbreaking to say the least, and now I am left with concerns and wondering.  


Let me give you a little background, two weeks ago one of our larger cows had a very difficult time delivering a (different) bull calf.  It was a very long process and finally was at the point that we thought intervention was going to be the only option.  However, she manage to deliver a very large bull calf.  Weight was well over 50lbs.....closer to 60 than not.  


Fast forward two weeks to our current situation......one of our Chondro cows delivered late Sunday evening, early Monday morning.  This bull calf was also very large right around 55 lbs.  


I'm having concerns over the size of the calves.  We had 7 from him last year and they all were nicely sized most running around 40 pounds.  This spring we have had 3 from him so far, one chondro heifer (non-tested, but sure she is) and two big bull calves, one that didn't make it.  I have one more cow to deliver from him, she is a chondro as well.  I am extremely concerned about her for the delivery.  I'm perplexed over the much higher weight difference from last year, I honestly have no idea what to do but worry about using him for breeding again.   

Advice or thoughts?

[otf]

Sorry that you lost the calf. It's never easy to lose one, no matter the cause. Unless you have a necropsy done, there is no definitive way to determine the cause of death. Your vet can do a field necropsy, which is easier on your pocketbook than hauling a dead calf to the state lab. But it has to be done right away.

This is not to say that birth size was not the cause, but you might be surprised at what a Dexter can deliver. Was it able to stand and nurse within a reasonable time?  Did the cow mother it well?  

Forty pounds would be nice every time, but it doesn't always happen that way. How old was this calf when it died? You might confine this last cow as she gets closer to calving (with a buddy, and hay, water, shelter) where you can keep a close eye on her progress; share your concerns with your vet and keep his number on speed dial.

[Deleted]

what do you feed and how much? To much food can cause big calves. what is the pedigree some do produce big calves.

[jamshundred]

I know your bloodlines.  They are not lines where it is usual to hear of any calving issues.   We just came through a long winter.  Were you supplemental feeding besides hay?  Could weight gain be attributed to external factors?
Gale is correct. . . . I would have a necropsy.  Here in MD the health department charges $100 for calves.  You will get a very detailed report as to the condition of the calf.  

Judy
 

[cascade]

The first place to start looking for a cause is also the easiest place to look.... Are the animals getting COMPLETE minerals and vitamins appropriate for your area and time of year?..... Iodine, Selenium, Copper, Phosphorus, Magnesium....etc... also, Vitamin A and Vitamin D and vitamin E which can all be short in late winter in some foods and in some areas.

[lakeportfarms]

It's possibly too late to arrange for a necropsy now. Maybe earlier in the year with cool weather it would have been doable, but the weather has been pretty warm as of late.
I'm afraid I'll agree with Kirk on this one. In the Midwest and East, it was a cool wet summer last year, and a cold winter this year, following a cold snowy winter the year before. The winters with hay feeding are pretty taxing on the vitamins and mineral levels of your herd, because stored hay loses anything it has within a month or two. They need mineral and vitamins first, but often times the solution many use is to feed them more without rather than providing adequate levels of vitamins and minerals. What you can do is have a blood test on a couple of cows that are representative, and get an accurate assessment if they are deficient in anything. At a minimum I'd get a BoSe shot into your expectant cows as soon as you can.

[bffarms1]

Thank you everyone for your replies and advice. I'm sorry I haven't posted sooner, it has been very busy both on the farm and at work.

All of our cattle have access to the minerals at all times. Though we do grain our cattle, it is not a daily staple for them. Unfortunately, it was to late to have a necropsy done...it was way to warm that day, and honestly it was a very hard loss for all of us. I didn't take all the time I needed to really think about the situation, we went ahead an buried it right away.

Kirk, I took your advice and checked with our vet on the minerals that we use as well as checking on the over all health. He said that we are using in right for our area (and it better be since it was his recommendation to being with), and everyone is healthy.

I spoke with a our vet and then a vet that I know well who has experience with dexters, and there is no clear answer why we had the two large bull calves. So at this point since we can find no clear cut answer and not wanting to take the chance of a repeat we are going to discontinue use of the bull in question.

Thank you again for all of your advice, we learned tons with this situation and I hope it doesn't happen again or at least if it does I will be better prepared.....I hope.

[lonecowhand]

Hi bffarms , sorry for the loss. Is this your own bull , or AI, or a neighbors?
If you don't mind, who is he? Perhaps the question is inappropriate,I'm not sure, so don't answer that one if you feel that way.

Bill

[lakeportfarms]

Bffarms, how did the last calving go? It's probably prudent to select another bull at this time. Unfortunately it seems the learning curve is rather steep with livestock, even if you're doing all the right things. The only thing I'm trying to figure out (as you have been) is why there has been a change between the first year and the second? I just can't think of anything else other than environmental conditions that are mostly out of your control or shouldn't play much of a role.

[bffarms1]

We are still waiting the last calf to be born from this bull....waiting very anxiously. I will tell you last year this cow was 6 weeks after everyone else so I'm thinking she is going to be the same this year. We did have another calf last week, another bull calf...but the momma was bred to our chondro bull. Very easy birth no issues.

We have come to accept that we will never know the reason behind these birth weights, and though we hate to play the "blame game" with the bull.....we just cannot take the chance. We have 5 heifer calfs to breed this year, and one is chondro....plus 3 chondro cows we need a tall bull...and we are not willing to take the risk with using our current tall bull again.

Thank you all so very much for your replies, we greatly appreciate it. Now...if any of you out there could send the bull calf fairy my way.....and I will forward our heifer fairy on to whoever needs it. And I'm not complaining mind you....just don't want to be selfish and keep that heifer fairy to long...I think our turn is over...lol.

[cascade]

In cattle there is a measure called Calving Ease Direct. This measures the ease in which a mother can have a calf (regardless of the calf weight). In the past, all the focus was on calf weight and they focused on selecting sires that would throw smaller calves, but they found that this took the focus away from selecting for mothers that can easily have robust calves.

If you put all your attention into trying to have smaller and smaller calves, you might also be accidentally be selecting for weak mothers who are unable to give birth to healthy robust calves.

In my opinion, all dexter females should be selected for the ability to easily have calves up to 60 pounds, but we should also be selecting for robust calves that are down in the 40-50 pound range. This gives you compact but robust calves, AND gives you mothers that can easily handle any occasional outliers that might approach 60 pounds.

If I have a mother cow that can't easily pass a 55 pound calf when the mom is 23 months old, I'd just as soon cull the mom because she likely lacks the genetics to easily have calves in a range of sizes, and I don't want her to pass her weakness on to her descendants.

[otf]

Unfortunately, Dexters don't have EPD's -- not that they're any guarantee of calving ease. But here's an interesting thread from the Cattle Today boards about "starving a calf out of a cow."

www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5495&p=26881


Gale

[wvdexters]

Hey Bffarms,

I'm just a little South of you down in WV so if you could pass that along to the heifer fairy I'd be more than happy to send our bull fairy up your way for awhile. LOL!!