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Post by cascade on May 28, 2015 4:27:30 GMT
From Facebook:
Shaun Ann Lord: "Why would a quality breeder use a bull that is being used over and over by the majority of Dexter owners anyway?"
Well, Ace of Clovebrook has 157 registered offspring in the ADCA alone
Saltaire Platinum has a mere 65 registered offspring in the ADCA..... 65 offspring in 25 years is NOT an overused bull.
I'm not saying that Ace of Clovebrook isn't a good bull....... I'm just saying that some people are hypocrites.
PS. I can't reply on the new facebook traditional dexter group because they censor everything because they are afraid of facts. Their story falls to pieces in the light of real facts.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 28, 2015 9:26:55 GMT
Banned from the FB group "Traditional Dexter Cattle" Kirk? Too bad. Probably because you don't have any Traditional Dexters or have anything constructive to contribute. You're only there to stir the pot, as you are here.
With respect to Platinum AND HIS IMMEDIATE descendants, most within a few generations both polled (and horned out of polled) constitutes 93% of the current 2015 registrations in a registry, well...you have a problem. I happen to own some Ace of Clove Brook daughters, and they are very nice cows. With horns. As it should be. But I can assure you that he or his descendants are NOT in 93% of 2015 registrations, so your argument is specious.
Many of us are disturbed that the motto of the Dexter breed is now "whatever you define it as". This is almost supported by the recent messages from the ADCA President in recent bulletins with the "celebrate the diversity" statements. I think black, red, dun, short legged, and long legged are enough diversity already for a breed without adding polled to the mix as well.
Like it or not, there will be a division. Whether it happens within the ADCA with a special classification and recognition acceptable to the Traditional Horned breeders (which the ADCA has rejected once if not more times) or through another association (likely if the ADCA doesn't change their ways) is difficult to say for now. The cracks are showing in the polled breeders armor. Perhaps it just hasn't been said, or perhaps you're only now realizing it, but to provide legitimacy to the HERITAGE "Dexter" name for your animals you need the consent of the HERITAGE OR TRADITIONAL horned Dexter breeders (those without Platinum in the pedigree).
More and more of these traditional breeders are starting to withdraw their consent, and make known on social media what the original Dexter has been prior to 1994.
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Post by cascade on May 28, 2015 15:47:51 GMT
That facebook group is becoming a laughing stock as they ban anyone with real genetics knowledge, and just hang onto radical fundamentalist folks, with poor genetics knowledge, and poor cooperation skills. They deleted photos of lovely black horned dexters posted by one of the most knowlegable traditional black horned breeders on the planet, and they banned her too. They deleted those traditional black horned dexter photos out of ignorance about genetics. 100% of horned dexters have ZERO polled genes, regardless of ancestry.
The radical fundamentalists are painting themselves in a corner by saying that any black horned dexter with possible polled ancestry are not allowed..... That's over 99% of all horned dexters since over 99% of horned dexters have possible POLLED ancestors. The radical fundamentalists will do as they always do, they'll chase everyone away except for the handful of folks with bad attitudes and poor cooperation skills.
By the way, the original dexters did NOT allow dun.... Just black or red.
The original dexters did NOT allow "long legs and short legs" they were supposed to ALL have shorter legs (can't do that with chondro, but you can do that with true-shorts).
The original dexter description didn't say "HORNS MAY NOT BE REMOVED".... so they always allowed dexters without horns for those who choose to remove horns. Those who remove horns by burning or cutting may soon be banned from doing so as is the case in many European countries... They'll be forced to use the ONLY 100% humane method which is the polled gene.
I support folks preserving horned dexters and that's very easy to do... If it's a registered horned dexter, then preserve it. You can start by NOT cutting its horns off. Looking back on ancient pedigrees will do NOTHING to preserve traditional features in today's horned dexters.
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Post by jamshundred on May 28, 2015 17:16:42 GMT
Kirk,
I have to agree about Ace. You have to remember that Shaun had a HUGE herd, and even using several bulls he is going to have large numbers. You are being a bit hypocrital yourself though. In another thread you tout the current owner as being the most superior of all of us. ( Maybe. . or maybe whats in the textbook is not what's in nature). I see lots of calves coming with her herd identifier. You cannot have it both ways. Have you suggested she cease and destroy the semen as it is not something you find positive for the breed?
Let's take it a step further. The herd identifier of Ace of Clove Brook leaves the impression he is a bull from an early Dexter breeding line. That isn't the case. He is a nice bull with nice bloodlines, but he did not descend directly thorugh the early American lines established early by the owner of the Dover House herd, whose daughter Mrs. Ingalls established the Clove Brook herd, which later continued under that herd name by her daughter, Sandra Van Heerden. However, if you look closely at the pedigree. . . . . .
Ace of Clove Brook is primarily an ENGLISH bull but his ancestry in America is primarily Peerless. Didn't you just have some comments on that herd just the other day.
On the other thing mentioned in this thread. . . .it pains me at the thought of losing friends and colleagues over this issue but I have to be " to my ownself true".
Censorship in any form exists to silence opposition. There are countries where it is effectively implemented with imprisonment or death.
The very first forum I ever saw or read on the internet was an animal rights forum on Compuserve. It was HSUS, PETA,ans ASPCA. That was an excellent forum. it was informative. I was learning much just from the interaction of the seperate interests. A few conversations became intensive and complaints were made to the "moderator" and conversations began to be moved and/or censored. There was so much to be learned on that forum. About animals, and rights, and humans, and group interests and self interests and power and duplicity. The wielding of power and control of content ruined that forum. Those who made the dicussions informative and interesting left. The forum collapsed.
I think it is counter productive to discourse to remove one side of it.
Judy
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 17:37:04 GMT
kirk the FB site is for the goal of preserving traditional horned dexters. You were not contributing to that you were only arguing as to why we should not preserve them. That is not helpful to the goal. I have no idea why you wanted to be on that site anyway none of it applies to you unless you are planing on selling out and string over with traditional dexters.
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Post by cascade on May 28, 2015 20:57:42 GMT
kirk the FB site is for the goal of preserving traditional horned dexters. You were not contributing to that you were only arguing as to why we should not preserve them. That is not helpful to the goal. I have no idea why you wanted to be on that site anyway none of it applies to you unless you are planing on selling out and string over with traditional dexters. Huh? I was arguing that any excellent registered pedigreed horned dexters with excellent traditional horned traits, should be worthy of saving. Having an polled ancestor is meaningless in horned animals... if an animal is horned, it is guaranteed to NOT have any polled genes. Polled genes are dominant and can't hide. I'm thrilled that some folks are saving horned dexters.... I'm saving one myself, and I refuse to dehorn any dexters born with horns. |
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Post by genebo on May 28, 2015 22:11:55 GMT
Everybody else in the world can understand that the outcrossed genetics that brought the polled trait, also brought other traits from that other breed. The polledness is an indicator that there are other genetics at work, too, but the fact that horns reappeared on the offspring of hetero polled cattle does not mean that they have been miraculously scrubbed clean of the other impurities. Can't you get that?
You come to us from Olga's board and go back there to be refueled. That is the most censored board of all, and has done more censorship than it would be possible for any other venue to match. You should be very grateful to Judy Sponaugle and her deeply ingrained American sense of fair play and her dedication to the first amendment. If it weren't for her, you would be banned from here, too.
You are a guest here. Try to respect the rules, "keep your nose from growing", and contribute something positive.
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Post by cascade on May 28, 2015 23:06:26 GMT
So you want to ban all horned decendants of Parndon Bullfinch because he had outcrossed genetics?
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Post by lonecowhand on May 28, 2015 23:16:03 GMT
Proud to be one of the "laughing stock" of Radical Fundamentalist Preservation Fanatics! Nice buzz phrase.
I haven't been called radical in years!
Judy, let's see that shirt when you have it done! There may be big demand.
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Post by cascade on May 29, 2015 21:46:07 GMT
Lonecowhand, I support your drive to preserve traditional traits in Dexters .... Can you give us a complete list of the traditional traits you personally are preserving? Do you understand that 50% of your cow's genes are lost each generation?
In my own traditional herd of mostly naturally hornless dexters, I have a long list of traditional traits that I'm preserving, including strong immune systems, natural resistance to parasites, ability to live in terrible weather without shelter except trees, easy calving, long lives, compact frames, ability to stay in condition on forage alone, no vet work required, super friendly animals, etc... I'm even preserving SOME horns, just in case I want some draft animals some day.
What are you preserving?
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