Parndon Bullfinch = Overused Bull? Polled Ancestors?

[cascade]

Looks like Parndon Bullfinch is on upwards of 99% of pedigrees and he likely has polled ancestors.

His great grandmother, Limbury Fan seems to have descended from polled ancestors in the 1940's... there's no record that she had horned ancestors and many oldtimers used polled stock as foundation for dexters.

Looks like the radical fundamentalist purists have a big problem on their hands...   The more we look at the backgrounds of Dexters, the more we find that most all horned dexters may have polled ancestors.   But smart folks with good genetics knowledge can tell you that is NOT a problem.... the fact is, that 100% of horned offspring out of polled ancestors have ZERO polled genes....  So if you want horned dexters, get yourself some horned dexters and stop worrying about polled ancestry.   The polled gene can NOT be passed down via horned animals.   The polled gene is DOMINANT and can NOT hide, and can NOT skip generations.

By the way, It's funny that Limbury Fan's mother is listed as a "Foundation Cow" in the 1940's...    

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?sec=1&aid=258

Again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with these animals....  I'm saying that the radical fundamental purist approach is nonsense.   If you want to save horned dexters, then select some horned dexters with the great traditional horned traits that YOU appreciate, generation after generation.   Polled breeders aren't interfering with your right to do that.   Out here where I live, we polled and horned breeders get along very well together and support each other.



PS.  I fully accept the diversity of dexters and we need to be 100% honest about them.

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

I composed a very lengthy response to you. I thought I would share with you what is readily shared with all who ask.  The facts.    I have spent untold minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, more than a decade combing thorugh books and pedigrees and talking to breeders while reserching Parndon Bullfinch.  I asked questions of breeders who owned his offspring and his offspring's offspring.  Above all else I am honest and tell it like I know it.  You, for instance don't even have the information correct.  And then after paragraphs and paragraphs of my research, a little voice in my head told me it was a waste of time, you don't really care, you are just baiting me.  ( I didn't answer the voice. . I swear!).   

You, polled breeders, and the ADCA leadership are willing to go to any lengths to disparage that which many of us sincerely revere, to see if you can "level the playing field".   That is all it's about.  I don't think a one of you revere this breed, are concerned in the physical changes you cannot help but see,  give a second of thought to the changes taking place internally, and they ARE because *I* do see and listen.   You want what you want and you want it at the cost of something special.   You are not willing to be fundamentally honest or intellually honest.  Many of you will scream about GMO's, Round-up, restrictions on the sale of raw milk, poultry regulations. . . but you will not stop for a moment and give thought to the wrong that is being wrought on the Dexter breed, similar if not the same as what was done to the original Aberdeen Angus, another beautiful animal in it's original form.   Now even their owners have anything good to say about them beyond their commercial value for beef and bank accounts.

Instead of the paragraphs of research and information I wrote to share with you that you won't take in the context it was written I will just say this.   The DNA markers of Parndon Bullfinch are consistent with the Legacy cows I have owned that do not have him in the pedigree.  Explain dat.  

I notice you have missed smearing a beloved  bloodline in the preservation effort.  I wonder why?  ( I really don't . .. I know why).

Judy

[cascade]

It's very likely that there is a good dose of Angus in most all LEGACY dexters. The La Mancha dexter herd in Ireland was reported as doing extensive cross-breeding experiments with Aberdeen Angus, Red Poll, Kerry, Dexter and other breeds. The La Mancha herd was also doing significant exporting of FOUNDATION Dexters to the United States and England in the late 1800's and early 1900's. There are a number of animals listed in the 1921 Volume One of the American Kerry and Dexter Cattle Herd Book that indicate "Sire Unknown" and "Dam Unknown" for entries from Mr. Robertson's La Mancha herd.

So it's not surprising that Parndon Bullfinch with his likely polled Angus roots (mixed with Kerry and others), would match the DNA of legacy stock and their likely polled Angus roots (mixed with Kerry and others) via the LaMancha herd and others.

The British breeds of cattle have lots of overlapping.... that's NOT a slam against our wonderful Dexters.... that's just history. I'm just happy that legacy Dexters have traditional Angus and Shorthorn in them, and NOT those giant nasty European breeds.

If you want to save traditional Dexters, come up with a list of detail traits and photos and behaviors that we should ALL be selecting for. Polled breeders can select for the exact same traits as horned breeders (except the horns).... Then any horned calves born to hetero-polled dexters, will be just as traditional as any others. Wouldn't that be wonderful? I hope you'll steer the FaceBook crowd toward focusing on selecting traditional traits instead of paying too much attention to ancient old pedigrees.

If we all worked on selecting for traditional traits, then polled dexters and dehorned legacy dexters would be roughly the same.


PS. you've got me curious about the bloodline I missed... give me a hint.... but remember, the reason I'm raising this is to remind folks that the pedigree approach to traditionalism is too full of holes to be effective.... so that leaves the trait selection approach as the best approach to save traditional dexters.

[lakeportfarms]

Kirk, we know you don't have your face in the herdbooks, so who is feeding you this information? Why don't they come on here themselves and post all this stuff that was supposed to take place long before I was born, or for that matter, before my parents and some of my grandparents were born? So I can't really verify or refute what you say, because they are now deceased.

PS. I was well into voting age when Saltaire Platinum was admitted to the ADCA, and there are still more than a few current members around that can personally tell you face to face how that all came about. One in particular with a long history in the ADCA that I won't name, but who doesn't participate here, PERSONALLY told me it was a terrible decision with a lot of politics involved. It took a while, but they caved and have used a bull with Platinum in his recent pedigree in recent years.

I firmly believe that Platinum is a bigger problem, in that when polled became an acceptable and even desired trait and was earning big bucks for some owners compared to horned, that a lot of cheating took place using other breeds to increase the odds of polled calves to sell and retain. Tell me it didn't happen, heck, tell me it DOESN"T HAPPEN NOW, and that they were too concerned about the purity of the breed when a breeder could easily sell every polled bull they produced before they were weaned! You've said yourself here that Platinum has only 60 something progeny. Half of those by odds (I'm not looking it up) are female, half of the male progeny would have horns, (unless owners culled them because they didn't want horns). That practice would certainly explain the dramatic change in phenotype of many polled Dexters that you see.

Perhaps one of the reasons that the ADCA is so concerned with genotyping females now is to curb the practice of using another polled breed to increase the odds of polled. Now that they have their numbers of polled, perhaps many of the polled breeders are wishing to close the barn door on others who would do the same.

[cascade]

It's the year 2015 (not 1985).... There are lots of herdbooks and other data sources available online with simple google searches. That's also how I found that the Peerless Dexter herd was actually a substantial Shorthorn Cattle herd with a few dexters mixed in.... so legacy Peerless Dexters are almost certainly part SHORTHORN cattle, possibly even part POLLED Shorthorn cattle. Google "John Logsdon shorthorn" for more info.

I personally spoke several times with the wonderful person (Fred Chesterley) who pushed to import the EXCELLENT compact Saltaire Platinum from the UK home of Dexters. Fred was a terrific cattle breeder and he wanted to save future Dexter calves from the torture of de-horning. The polled gene is a simple stand-alone gene that simply switches off horn growth. Fred (among others) helped to save tens of thousands of dexter calves from the TORTURE of dehorning. Many countries are banning dehorning via cutting and burning, and the polled gene is the ONLY alternative.

Homozygous polled purebred Dexter bulls (in Red or Black) have been widely available for many, many years. When we started looking for one in 2003, we just asked around and were offered our choice of two of them. We didn't have a shortage of options. The one we chose was Red, Homozygous Polled, and A2/A2, and he was family-tree DNA tested.... (and NON-Chondro and Non-PHA) The breeder of those excellent polled dexter bulls was doing extensive family tree DNA testing at the time, going back several generations. So we had very good evidence of his purebred status.

,
PS. With so many polled dexters available today and so few horned dexters around, are some of you radical fundamentalist legacy horned breeders secretly bringing in horned cattle from other breeds to secretly create horned dexters? No wonder some of you radical fundamentalist traditionalists are fighting AGAINST parentage testing in the ADCA.... I don't think this is the case, but that's what you have wrongly accused others of doing.

[lonecowhand]

I've read Fred Chesterleys quotes, he couldn't have cared less about preservation of lines, just about money!

Any color, any shape, any size, whatever the market will bear, there's a sucker born every minute!