A favour request please

[Donlin Stud]

Hello I would like to ask a huge favour from you being would you mind ‘liking’ our Facebook page please?

To have 100 likes opens the page up for in-depth statistical information which at this point in time would be very beneficial as we try and separate the actual interest from the ‘lurking’ interest.

We currently have 81 likes.

It is the introduction of yes, a second Dexter association in Australia that will have less than half price membership fees, a reduction of up to 31% for DNA testing, the offer of bundling tests for the first time to Australian breeders, a choice in the use of animal genetic labs and the introduction of a commercial registration tier (category) as demanded by many, for many years.

The Registry will also be open to welcome, support and generously assist the many Dexters grazing in paddocks whose owners left the only association many moons ago due to financial reasons (the 10 year drought was devastating and has entered its fifteenth year in three key parts of Australia) and now do not have a history of DNA parent verification.

Im going to say thank you in advance of your support

Heritage Dexter Cattle Registry of Australia Inc

[cascade]

Having multiple associations in the US has COST us dexter breeders a ton of money and confuses new people and has done NOTHING to help dexters.

Many folks have had to double-registered animals... double registering is NOT cheaper, it's MORE EXPENSIVE.
For a while, we registered our animals in both the PDCA and ADCA not knowing which would win out. It became clear pretty quickly that the PDCA would dwindle and we stopped double-registering in the PDCA... but it cost us a TON of money.

Those secondary registries always die-off in the long run, and that hurts the breed, and can leave tons of animals stranded in a dead registry.

It's better to stay in one strong association and learn to cooperate and negotiate and be a little flexible.

My guess is that if you split off, then the main registry will just out-compete you and drive you out of business down the road.... it's better to stay in the main registry, roll up your sleeves, and see if you can make it work in a FRIENDLY MANNER. You might not get things exactly your way, but maybe it will be good enough.... that's how cooperation works.

Since Australia allows upgrading, it seems like you already have a solution for unregistered dexters... They can be bred on purebred dexter bulls, and offspring will eventually reach purebred status.

If everyone with a slightly different approach to doing things, ran off and started their own registries, we'd have as many registries as we have breeders. That's painful and costly and harmful to the breed.

[jamshundred]

I kind of like a CHOICE in my life.  When there is no competition there is NO choice. . . . and when you get a single-minded unresponsive cult determining the direction the road will be built. .. .NOPE.  .. not MY idea of America.   And since I don't like Arbies at all,  avoid McDonalds like the plague unless I cannot resist the pull for french-fries.   . like a loaded Baked potatoe on occassion so Wendy's gives me that option,  I am glad there is a choice and I can choose Burger King for my nasty fast food on the occasions I need a quick CHOICE.

AMERICA was built on competition.  Legacy is responsible for every innovation connected to testing and registration. . . and every change in ADCA is built on that success of Legacy.   And Legacy just keeps on WOWING ! !    Herd book 1936 should be up by the end of the week.   

Isn't it wonderfull that in America, thanks to the individual entrepreneur, you can have have yoiur choice of Burger, or computer. . .or car?   What a great country!

Judy

  

[genebo]

Let the truth rain down and inundate the land!

There ain't much of it in Kirk's post. We could use a deluge.

Kirk registered 7 of his animals with the PDCA, between 2008 and 2012. The total cost of these registrations would have been $140 if he registered them one at a time. If he registered them as a herd transfer, all at one time, the cost was $5. That is a one-time benefit that I used. Neat, huh?

$140 was less than the cost of having a bull calf registered, with genotyping, chondro testing and color testing done at the Gus Cothran Lab and PHA testing done at Agrigenomics. The cost through ADCA was $170 in 2008. I have my receipts. I was required to have these tests done in order to list a bull in the AI Bulls page.

Meanwhile, Judy was at work. She arranged for the PHA test to be licensed to UC Davis. Together, we convinced the A2 Corporation to allow A2 testing of privately owned cattle in the US. That was also done at UC Davis. UC Davis already had a very large database of Dexter cattle, since they had been doing the work since 1985. Judy arranged for every test you would normally do on a Dexter to be done from a single sample of tails hairs. This was a revolutionary advance, One that so many people welcomed with open arms. The total cost to register a Dexter with Legacy, have it genotyped and parentage verified, was $25. Add color, dun, A2, chondro and PHA and the total cost was $105. Judy has worked to have that cost lowered. Today I buy registration, genotyping, parentage verification, A2, chondro, PHA, color and dun for $95.

There are other tests that can be bundled with the ones I get, such as polled and two other milk types, useful in making cheese. I never use these tests, since I never make cheese and all my Dexters obviously have all their horn genes in order.

New tests may be discovered and become desirable. You can go back to UC Davis with your case number and ask for the new test without submitting a new sample. How cool can it get?

The ADCA and the Gus Coithran Lab was forced to cut their prices for DNA testing. The annual statement used to be listed in the Dexter Bulletin. You could easily compare the "Income from DNA Testing" to the "expense of DNA Testing". Before Judy, the difference was large. After Judy, the difference has shrunk. No wonder they don't like what she does! They had a gold mine prior to the Legacy Dexter Cattle Registry began offering reasonable prices.

[Donlin Stud]

Hi Cascade. I wonder why you believe the sole association is a strong one?

Owing a registered Dexter in Australia is now available only to the few that have a high deposable incomes.

Over half the current membership owns less than 8 animals. More than two-thirds are either retired or their main source of income is from the farm.

Members pay a (renewal) membership fee of $170pa.  Registration with mandatory DNA testing of an animal is up to $135 totalling $305.

HDCRA offers membership and Registration with the same mandatory DNA testing of an animal for up to $145 (without an applied discount).

The new association creation is solely a financial one, and to think or assume otherwise is to bury ones’ head further in the sand. The business plan evolved over a very long period and is based on factual trends and statistical information – not that of emotion, tantrums or whims as some would prefer to believe.

And Cascade, your post resembles what I have recently heard as a response to the new association, ‘surprisingly’ by those in charge of DCAI.

Do be careful of Chinese whispers.

[lakeportfarms]

That's too funny Gene! Does the PDCA still have the option of the "herd transfer"? Kirk, your first 3 heifers next year are going to cost more to register than ALL of your PDCA activity over a 4 year span. I guess you'll be going to raise another breed or drop out of registration of your Dexters in future years?

Before you say "just raise your prices", remember that SOMEBODY is spending that money, even if it isn't you. If you thought the "cant eat papers" phrase was used a lot before, just wait a couple of years.

[genebo]

Find the email address of Rosemary Fleharty on the PDCA site. She is the registrar and will be able to tell you if the herd transfer option is still available for one-time use.

I've already used it, so it's not available to me.

[cascade]

Judy has done a ton of good things over the years.... it's just too bad that all that good wasn't focused in a single registry.... You don't have to start your own registry to accomplish good things, it's better to stay put and make changes for the better FOR EVERYONE. Yes, it's much harder to get some of your good ideas implemented in a larger organization, and certainly, it's easy to do things your own way if you just run away and start your own upstart registry... but those small off-shoot registries typically fail sooner than later.

Two or three duplicate registries can NOT be run as cheaply as one. Sure, if you have some unpaid volunteers to do all the work, you can bring the cost down in your tiny upstart organization.... but unpaid volunteers can die off and leave you holding the bag. Small volunteer registries are high risk for failure.

Why not sit down with the primary registry and discuss your issues? Why not see if you can brainstorm some novel ideas that might appease most everyone (maybe not perfectly, but good enough)? I'd do almost ANYTHING to avoid splitting up an organization... splits are messy and risky and do more harm than good.


PS. Whatever money I spent on DUPLICATE registries in the past was 100% unnecessary DUPLICATE costs.... I gained ZERO from it. Those duplicate registries are dying out now (as they almost always do).... I'd love to see all the people come back to the main registry and we can all work out our differences, and get along, and ELIMINATE duplication, and eliminate the costs associated with duplication.

[wvdexters]

Hi Donna,

Yes. We'll be happy to help out. Our internet has been down for days here so I am "catching up". Fingers crossed it stays on for a while now. I guess it's all part of the fun living out in the country.

[lakeportfarms]

Jun 2, 2015 18:10:09 GMT cascade said:

Judy has done a ton of good things over the years.... it's just too bad that all that good wasn't focused in a single registry.... You don't have to start your own registry to accomplish good things, it's better to stay put and make changes for the better FOR EVERYONE. Yes, it's much harder to get some of your good ideas implemented in a larger organization, and certainly, it's easy to do things your own way if you just run away and start your own upstart registry... but those small off-shoot registries typically fail sooner than later.

Two or three duplicate registries can NOT be run as cheaply as one. Sure, if you have some unpaid volunteers to do all the work, you can bring the cost down in your tiny upstart organization.... but unpaid volunteers can die off and leave you holding the bag. Small volunteer registries are high risk for failure.

Why not sit down with the primary registry and discuss your issues? Why not see if you can brainstorm some novel ideas that might appease most everyone (maybe not perfectly, but good enough)? I'd do almost ANYTHING to avoid splitting up an organization... splits are messy and risky and do more harm than good.


PS. Whatever money I spent on DUPLICATE registries in the past was 100% unnecessary DUPLICATE costs.... I gained ZERO from it. Those duplicate registries are dying out now (as they almost always do).... I'd love to see all the people come back to the main registry and we can all work out our differences, and get along, and ELIMINATE duplication, and eliminate the costs associated with duplication.

 
Let's all just get along Kirk?  You may recognize a few quotes over the past few years:


 "I'd propose that we pick a future date like 2018 or 2020 or 2022 to start rejecting carrier calves and that would help us gather information and educate breeders concerning the carriers and give everyone PLENTY of time to learn and prepare. But, if we really want a PURE breed, then we've got to do some purification sooner or later." 


"When we find these hidden defect genes in dexters, will the dexter associations allow breeders to combine chondrodysplasia with syndactyly and hypotrichosis to create hairless, mule-footed, dwarfs? (oh, they are soooo cute and 100% pure dexter too!, maybe even legacy!).



Or will the dexter associations take a stand against promoting the spread of genetic diseases that other cattle breed associations are trying to eliminate?
"

"If you reread all my posts above, you will see that I proposed KEEPING ALL CURRENT defective animals in the registries FOREVER. I even proposed allowing defective new calves to be registered until 2018. That means that a defective calf born in 2017 could be registered and bred from from until 2040.


Here's one from the official publication of the ADCA from last summer:

"Our Dexters have benefited

in that testing for two serious

breed problems, pulmonary hypoplasia

with anasarca (PHA) and chondrodysplasia

(CD), now enables us to circumvent

and eventually, one hopes, breed

these death-dealing defects out of our

cattle."

So my question is,  how long do you propose that I wait around, sending in my dues and spending considerable sums of money registering my "lethal death dealing" dwarf Dexters with the ADCA, while other members in the association continue to constantly bad mouth what I choose to raise and breed for.  Either it's going to happen or it isn't.  If it's going to happen then I'm wasting my money and would be better off trying to encourage others who are like minded to form an association that heralds the Dexters that attracted us to the breed in the first place.  If you say it's never going to happen, then please retract and apologize for your comments in the past.

[cascade]

Hans, I'll bet we could hammer out something workable if we rolled up our sleeves.   Neither side might get their way exactly, but I'll bet we could come up with something satisfactory for both sides....   Here, I'll give it a stab:

"Over a century ago, the originators of the dexter breed wanted to create a breed of short, stocky, easily managed, dual purpose cattle based on mostly Irish and British breeds of rugged dual purpose cattle.  They visually selected the best and shortest specimens from crosses of other breeds like the Irish Kerry Cow, and a good number of other British breeds mixed in.  In selecting for shorter cattle, they unknowingly often selected some that had a form of dwarfism called Chondrodysplasia, along with some that were just naturally short (without dwarfism).  Without DNA tests, it was impossible to tell for certain which was which.   Over time, some folks were drawn to the features of the dwarfs, while some were drawn toward the truly short animals without dwarfism.   

The dwarfs had a drawback in that they could not breed true so they would only have dwarf calves like themselves 50% of the time.  This confounded some breeders who wanted ALL their calves to be short, but other breeders found some advantages in these mixed taller and shorter calves.    The dwarfs also had another drawback in that the gene turned out to be a "Lethal Gene", so named because if the calf inherits one of these genes from both parents, then the calf is deformed and aborts late term... But since 2002, there have been easy DNA tests available to help dwarf-favoring breeders keep from breeding dwarf to dwarf and thereby avoiding the lethal aspects of the gene.  

Some breeders have discovered that some smaller dexters, can breed true 100% of the time and do NOT have dwarfism.  Those breeders are focusing on creating naturally shorter dexters.

The organization supports the diversity of Dexters and supports personal choice, but strongly encourages all potential buyers to examine all options and educate themselves in the pros and cons of the various options before making a purchase"

Further, I'd require all animals being transferred to new owners, to be proven and recorded as Chondro vs. Non-Chondro before the transfer was completed. 

But that's just my own personal attempt at making something workable.

[Deleted]

Jun 3, 2015 3:35:33 GMT cascade said:

Hans, I'll bet we could hammer out something workable if we rolled up our sleeves.   Neither side might get their way exactly, but I'll bet we could come up with something satisfactory for both sides....   Here, I'll give it a stab:

"Over a century ago, the originators of the dexter breed wanted to create a breed of short, stocky, easily managed, dual purpose cattle based on mostly Irish and British breeds of rugged dual purpose cattle.  They visually selected the best and shortest specimens from crosses of other breeds like the Irish Kerry Cow, and a good number of other British breeds mixed in.  In selecting for shorter cattle, they unknowingly often selected some that had a form of dwarfism called Chondrodysplasia, along with some that were just naturally short (without dwarfism).  Without DNA tests, it was impossible to tell for certain which was which.   Over time, some folks were drawn to the features of the dwarfs, while some were drawn toward the truly short animals without dwarfism.   

The dwarfs had a drawback in that they could not breed true so they would only have dwarf calves like themselves 50% of the time.  This confounded some breeders who wanted ALL their calves to be short, but other breeders found some advantages in these mixed taller and shorter calves.    The dwarfs also had another drawback in that the gene turned out to be a "Lethal Gene", so named because if the calf inherits one of these genes from both parents, then the calf is deformed and aborts late term... But since 2002, there have been easy DNA tests available to help dwarf-favoring breeders keep from breeding dwarf to dwarf and thereby avoiding the lethal aspects of the gene.  

Some breeders have discovered that some smaller dexters, can breed true 100% of the time and do NOT have dwarfism.  Those breeders are focusing on creating naturally shorter dexters.

The organization supports the diversity of Dexters and supports personal choice, but strongly encourages all potential buyers to examine all options and educate themselves in the pros and cons of the various options before making a purchase"

Further, I'd require all animals being transferred to new owners, to be proven and recorded as Chondro vs. Non-Chondro before the transfer was completed. 

But that's just my own personal attempt at making something workable.

you can put a rose in a cow pie but it still smells bad.

As to your previous post comrade kirk those are some pretty communist sounding ideas you have. 

[lakeportfarms]

Your own personal attempt is still loaded with biased statements and is nowhere near a workable solution.

As far as the recording of chondro and PHA for transfers or registration, I would happily list all of my chondro carriers (and do).  However, I would like to have the same privileges as the polled breeders and state that my cow, bull, or calf that I am registering IS chondro positive, WITHOUT the need for a test.  Why do you get to claim polled status without a test?  I CAN'T claim any of mine are chondro positive without a test, even though most if not all of my carriers are as easily identified as a polled Dexter ever would be, and actually harder to hide the chondro positive status.  

In fact, I can take a calf born of two heterozygous polled Dexters that may be horned, and dehorn them so well as a young calf, that I could easily pass that calf off as polled by 2 months old.  The calf is out of two polled parents, so who would ever know. If the calf constantly produced horned calves later in life, I guess it must be bad luck, right?

[jamshundred]

NO, NO, NO.  That would be called a "novel mutation".

Kirk, the best solution was always the easiest.   Saltaire Platinum and all descendents should have been entered in a seperate registry or category.  That seems such a viable concept to me that I simply don't understand why the suggestion has caused spasms in polled breeders.

Judy

[cascade]

Jun 3, 2015 15:08:10 GMT @dexterfarm said:

As to your previous post comrade kirk those are some pretty communist sounding ideas you have.

Nearly every livestock association in America works hard to eliminate lethal genes over time.   Are you saying you would like to preserve PHA and spread it around freely?  or would you like to have a plan to eventually eliminate PHA, over time?     If you favor hanging onto all the lethal genes that we'll eventually find, we'll eventually have a big mess on our hands. 

That said, I'm saying that if a large enough number of folks have an affinity for a certain lethal gene (chondro) and if they have a method to manage it and contain it, then those folks would be smart to stay in the one large organization and negotiate with that large organization to take a moderate approach.    But, If you run off and start your own tiny offshoot registry, then that will leave the primary registry in a position to take a very hard approach against ALL lethal genes including chondro....   Then when your tiny offshoot registry goes under (as they always do), the animals in that tiny offshoot registry will be lost.

While I personally support the eventual elimination of all lethal genes from dexters,  I could support a more moderate negotiated plan, and under that negotiated plan, I would feel the need to support that plan (even though it doesn't perfectly match what I personally would do).

PS. Concerning Hans' idea of DNA testing polled animals... I could even support that and support recording their hetero-polled vs homo-polled status online.

The point is that if we stick together and work hard to hammer out agreements, it's better that splitting off into a bunch of tiny organizations that will fail.

[cascade]

Jun 3, 2015 18:22:42 GMT jamshundred said:

Kirk, the best solution was always the easiest.   Saltaire Platinum and all descendents should have been entered in a seperate registry or category.  That seems such a viable concept to me that I simply don't understand why the suggestion has caused spasms in polled breeders.

Judy

Should we also add an indicator for any animal that has Grinstead Dora 16th as an ancestor since she likely has polled ancestry? (owners of the Grinstead Herd also kept Red Poll cattle).   Grinstead Dora 16th and Dora 6th have tons of unknown parentage (perhaps red poll).

 legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EF5448

Seems like if we make special indicators for animals with certain ancestors (for anyone who wants such an indicator), we could have a VERY LONG list of special indicators.

We already have an indicator in the registry for all animals that are Polled vs. Horned and that works pretty well.

I'm going to be looking into bringing in a bunch more polled purebred Dexter bulls from Australia and the UK that don't have Saltaire Platinum on the pedigree at all and they will meet every import requirement of the registry.   All these new NON-Saltaire Platinum polled purebred dexter bulls and their new polled descendants will also be entered into the polled category  (but wouldn't be in your requested Saltaire Platinum descendant category idea that was rejected).  



   

 

[Donlin Stud]

I just have to explain - unpaid volunteers is not a strong foundation nor is it financially sustainable for any business plan.

HDCRA wont be relying on unpaid volunteers to keep costs down. Nor will it ever require an expensive third party provider who will financially suck dry this association as it is doing the 'original'.

Its called technology - welcome to the 21st century!
Its not new to business but its new to animal associations - what we have enabled and continue to enable could also benefit such online services as Legacy (For Judy: Go Doug!

[Donlin Stud]

At least in Australia with DNA parent verification on both sides of the family tree since 1992 there will be no disguising or instigating rumours of a miracle polled Dexter from horned parents.

Instead it is clear where the polled gene will have come from (Angus, Galloway, Jersey...........so on) even with the absence of Platinum in a family tree.

It would be better to buy polled Dexters from the UK - where to this day, slipping in another breed is easily achieved.

[wvdexters]

Hi Donna,

Good news!! I see you are almost there. Just a couple more.

[cascade]

Jun 3, 2015 21:45:19 GMT Donlin Stud said:

I just have to explain - unpaid volunteers is not a strong foundation nor is it financially sustainable for any business plan.

HDCRA wont be relying on unpaid volunteers to keep costs down. Nor will it ever require an expensive third party provider who will financially suck dry this association as it is doing the 'original'.

Its called technology - welcome to the 21st century!
Its not new to business but its new to animal associations - what we have enabled and continue to enable could also benefit such online services as Legacy (For Judy: Go Doug!

So, if going with better technology and not using an expensive third party provider, will bring YOUR costs down, then what's going to happen when the regular Australian Dexter registry (DCAI) also goes with the better technology and switches providers and brings their costs down?   Then you'll have no reason to exist, and your animals will be lost in a tiny dying registry, and you'll be here complaining about how the large registry drove you out of business.... I've seen it happen that way MANY MANY MANY times.

You're better off staying with, and working with the regular Australian Dexter Registry (DCAI) and encouraging them to get better technology and to use lower-cost providers.  Yes, it's hard work to negotiate in a larger organization, but it's worth it in the long run.

Those who split things up, will go down in history as hurting the breed.   Those who stay and negotiate and help make one larger solid efficient organization, will go down in history as helping the breed. 

[lakeportfarms]

Jun 4, 2015 4:28:59 GMT cascade said:

Jun 3, 2015 21:45:19 GMT Donlin Stud said:

I just have to explain - unpaid volunteers is not a strong foundation nor is it financially sustainable for any business plan.

HDCRA wont be relying on unpaid volunteers to keep costs down. Nor will it ever require an expensive third party provider who will financially suck dry this association as it is doing the 'original'.

Its called technology - welcome to the 21st century!
Its not new to business but its new to animal associations - what we have enabled and continue to enable could also benefit such online services as Legacy (For Judy: Go Doug!

So, if going with better technology and not using an expensive third party provider, will bring YOUR costs down, then what's going to happen when the regular Australian Dexter registry (DCAI) also goes with the better technology and switches providers and brings their costs down?   Then you'll have no reason to exist, and your animals will be lost in a tiny dying registry, and you'll be here complaining about how the large registry drove you out of business.... I've seen it happen that way MANY MANY MANY times.

You're better off staying with, and working with the regular Australian Dexter Registry (DCAI) and encouraging them to get better technology and to use lower-cost providers.  Yes, it's hard work to negotiate in a larger organization, but it's worth it in the long run.

Those who split things up, will go down in history as hurting the breed.   Those who stay and negotiate and help make one larger solid efficient organization, will go down in history as helping the breed. 

Kirk, until a year or so ago the ADCA was exclusively using Gus Cothran at TAMU for their "official" testing for all things Dexters. I had some tests done there in the early years and it literally took months to get results back in some instances.  

Then I found Legacy, who was using UCDavis and the process was simple, inexpensive, fast, and accurate, not to mention much more integrity.  It did take a little extra effort to navigate the process of having the tests submitted to the ADCA, but I attribute that to the ADCA and not UCDavis or Legacy.  

I guess that those of us who have been using Legacy and UCDavis for all these years are all going to be in a lot of trouble when Gus Cothran implements the new technology and lower cost providers too, am I right? All of our genotypes are going to have to be duplicated there. 

Where do you do your testing?

[lakeportfarms]

I'm going to add this...Kirk, you are partially correct that if there is a split similar to the PDCA/ADCA then there is an uphill battle for the smaller of the two associations to survive, and more often than not the weaker one will ultimately fail.

I will ask, what did the PDCA do that was different from the ADCA over all these years?  I know all about the personality and power struggles, and certainly that played the major role, but I had heard from some that it was in part formed to eliminate chondrodysplasia from the Dexter ranks. Did that work?  I had also heard that the focus was going to be on polled Dexters.  Oops, looks like that plan didn't work either.  Other than that the only plan was to try to out compete the ADCA.  The odds were long

At this point in time, the ADCA has cast it's lot with the polled Dexter, which basically descends from Platinum.   For all intents and purposes you have created a new breed by concentrating on polled genetics.  The only thing keeping polled from becoming a full fledged breed is dipping back into the older genetics of the Dexter, pre-Platinum.

Some of us are upset at the "theft" of the Dexter identity by breeders who are breeding NOTHING that resembles the Dexter you'll see in the historical photos. 

The fact is, you need us.  The gulf between the two types is, in my opinion, too large to span now, and it was predictable that with enough publicity and members that a move to split and recapture the identity of the Dexter as it has been know for a hundred years would evolve.  We have a distinct goal and identity and purpose, unlike the other "examples" that you claim have occurred and failed in the past.  Though it may be a smaller group without the financial resources, (which by the way was also built in part upon our memberships and registrations and transfers that we are now facing losing) it has a devoted following and will attract new members who value the heritage lines and characteristics of the original Dexter.

I'll end with this example...here is a video of one of the "new" Dexters that has been created from the repeated breeding of Platinum descendant to Platinum descendant (according to the pedigree at least).  I'll put up ANY of my one year old horned bulls against this one to the newcomer to the breed who is looking to start their own herd.  The problem is that in the mind of the ADCA, this ONE YEAR OLD bull and the ones I raise have equal merit and are both representative of the breed.  I disagree!!!

Worse yet, the owner is committed to having this bull collected, based in large part on the test results and color.  Without getting into all the conformation problems and size for a yearling bull, he scares me with his high strung behavior.  This is what I have been repeatedly saying here...Kirk, you need to be getting after your own kind and what they breed.  NOT US!!!

[lakeportfarms]

Jun 3, 2015 20:42:10 GMT cascade said:

Jun 3, 2015 18:22:42 GMT jamshundred said:

I'm going to be looking into bringing in a bunch more polled purebred Dexter bulls from Australia and the UK that don't have Saltaire Platinum on the pedigree at all and they will meet every import requirement of the registry.   All these new NON-Saltaire Platinum polled purebred dexter bulls and their new polled descendants will also be entered into the polled category  (but wouldn't be in your requested Saltaire Platinum descendant category idea that was rejected).  

And you wonder why there is a movement by a group of breeders toward a distinct association that serves Dexters not out of polled (recent and proven, if you must) lines?

By the way, I thought you were so poor that you had to choose between dental work on the kids and genotyping your Dexters on a voluntary basis.  Did you recently win the lottery or something to allow you to import from Australia and the UK?

[jamshundred]

Oh my goodness.  That is a quote you would never see flow from my keyboard.  That was Kirks comment.
I AM sure it is coming.   It is inevitable 

Kirk,  legacy is a registry and testing service. It was set up to record and identify animals in the preservation effort and animals that had been genotyped to give recognition to both.

Early on it was intended that the genotype effort would save Dexters from being lost from the breed.  It was maligned from the beginning by polled breeders and supporters who went to any lengths to try and hide the fact the polled lines were NOT what was being represented. 

i am positive most of you are know what has happened is wrong.  Would you support a grade polled bull being introduced into the Kerry breed as well?

Judy

[cascade]

Jun 4, 2015 10:04:27 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Kirk, until a year or so ago the ADCA was exclusively using Gus Cothran at TAMU for their "official" testing for all things Dexters. I had some tests done there in the early years and it literally took months to get results back in some instances.  

Then I found Legacy, who was using UCDavis and the process was simple, inexpensive, fast, and accurate, not to mention much more integrity.  It did take a little extra effort to navigate the process of having the tests submitted to the ADCA, but I attribute that to the ADCA and not UCDavis or Legacy.  

I guess that those of us who have been using Legacy and UCDavis for all these years are all going to be in a lot of trouble when Gus Cothran implements the new technology and lower cost providers too, am I right? All of our genotypes are going to have to be duplicated there. 

Where do you do your testing?

TAMU is NOT the ADCA.....    TAMU is a vendor of the ADCA.....    I never get in bed with vendors.   I personally worked with both TAMU and VGL to try to get them to start doing polled testing before either had the ability to do that.   I recognized that we needed ALL DNA tests to be done at a single lab.   When VGL announced the ability to do polled testing  (and TAMU still could not do it), then that sealed the deal.  It further sealed the deal that VGL has excellent administrative processes.  

Then, I started campaigning within the ADCA to get the ADCA to adopt VGL as the ONLY DNA-testing vender...  we partially won that battle and VGL was accepted as one of two vendors...   I'll continue to argue that ALL testing should be done at a single lab... and it should be the lab with the best processes and the lab that is most likely to survive the competition, and clearly, that's VGL at UC Davis.   The more we stay and argue that point, the faster it will happen.

That's how all good large organizations should work...  Smart folks in the organization have to push the organization in the right direction... but when smart folks cry like babies and run off and start their own splinter groups instead of staying and pushing and negotiating, it's a form of selfish behavior.   When the crybabies run off to get their way in their tiny splinter group,  they actually SLOW the progress of the primary organization and hurt the breed.

Imagine where we'd be today, if you and Judy and others had rolled up their sleeves and built relationships within the ADCA and brought clear discussions to the table at ADCA and didn't get frustrated when you hit some brick walls, but instead, continued to push for smart things over the years.   The progress would be difficult and slow as it always is in larger organizations, but there would be clear progress.  

By running off and starting your own thing,  you hurt dexters in the long haul.  When the larger primary organizations start to make smart progress (As the ADCA is doing with parentage verification), the splinter groups fearing for their own survival, then start to fight AGAINST the primary organization doing the right thing (as Legacy type folks are fighting against ADCA implementing parentage verification)... why is Legacy fighting AGAINST parentage verification in the ADCA?.... because Legacy knows that if ADCA does it, then Legacy can no longer claim "We're the only ones doing it".   If the Australian splinter group goes off on their own, they'll likely fight against the DCAI when the DCAI tries to implement smarter technology and better venders.

Come back in 20 years and you'll see that we are almost certainly left with one single organization in the US (ADCA) and one single organization in Australia (DCAI)... so we might as well face those facts and roll up our sleeves and do some tough negotiating and be prepared to NOT exactly get our own ways, but arrive at something that's workable enough, and pretty good for 95+% of us all.

Good friendly negotiating can be exhausting, but extremely rewarding. 

[lonecowhand]

Unfortunately, the 95% for whom it would be "pretty good" would be the polled breeders. Without advocacy from a traditional horned breeder group, there would be none left in 20 years. I find it amusing that the polled breeders suddenly have so much interest in what the crybabies, whiners, and what was it? Oh yeah,... Radical Purists are doing!

[cascade]

Jun 4, 2015 18:26:10 GMT lonecowhand said:

Unfortunately, the 95% for whom it would be "pretty good" would be the polled breeders. Without advocacy from a traditional horned breeder group, there would be none left in 20 years. I find it amusing that the polled breeders suddenly have so much interest in what the crybabies, whiners, and what was it? Oh yeah,... Radical Purists are doing!

I actually agree with you...  If you horned breeders don't stay and advocate for horned dexters, then your cause will eventually be completely lost.   Why aren't you horned breeders submitting pictures of your wonderful horned animals to regularly be on the front page of association websites and association newsletters?  Why aren't you horned breeders showing pictures of horned draft dexters doing work, regularly on the website and newsletter?   YOU have to make that happen and it takes work and effort.  Instead, you withdraw and whine about being a minority and run off in tiny splinter groups and bash polled dexters.    

Why aren't more of you horned breeders running for office in the ADCA?   Why aren't more of you forming alliances with polled breeders.  I strongly support my local director and she is a horned breeder, I send customers her way all the time, and she sends some my way.  It's a win-win.   Most of us polled breeders LOVE the idea that there are some horned dexters in the world.   We'd hate to see them be lost.  I am personally saving some horned genes on our farm for when we want to produce some occasional draft animals to help do work on our farm.

If we negotiate something workable for most everyone, the 95% who will think things are pretty good, will be the reasonable people who can live with a little give and take and can live with real genetics SCIENCE to guide their opinions.   The 5% who will never be happy no matter what, are those folks that can't live with a little compromise and can't support their opinions with sound logic and REAL genetics science.




PS.  One of the stupidest things that will kill the horned movement, is focusing too much on a 30 generation pedigree, while not paying enough attention traits of the animals standing in the field.   Yes, pedigrees and registration are useful.   But to disqualify a really great traditional horned specimen because you don't like one of the remote ancestors on paper, is unscientific, and silly, especially since every pedigree contains at least a few errors due to the lack of parentage verification in the past. 
  

[lonecowhand]

Hi Donna, I see you got 102! Congratulations!

Bill

[Donlin Stud]

Jun 4, 2015 4:28:59 GMT cascade said:

So, if going with better technology and not using an expensive third party provider, will bring YOUR costs down, then what's going to happen when the regular Australian Dexter registry (DCAI) also goes with the better technology and switches providers and brings their costs down?   Then you'll have no reason to exist, and your animals will be lost in a tiny dying registry, and you'll be here complaining about how the large registry drove you out of business.... I've seen it happen that way MANY MANY MANY times.

You're better off staying with, and working with the regular Australian Dexter Registry (DCAI) and encouraging them to get better technology and to use lower-cost providers.  Yes, it's hard work to negotiate in a larger organization, but it's worth it in the long run.

Oh Kirk, thank you for the laugh

Don't you think there have been many who have tried to get "(DCAI) also goes with the better technology and switches providers "??
But instead they continue to pay out over $50,000 a year - and that figure is increasing with the level of service decreasing along with the membership and the number of 'active' Dexters in the registry.

You really have no idea of what has been happening down-under and for many years, with the numerous upon numerous members over this time trying to turn things around.  We have fallen in membership from over 750 to barely 300 in just 5 years. And I don't want to calculate the number of Dexters that have gone with them.

HDCRA is on a recovery mission

And similar to Legacy being a registry so is the business plan of HDCRA.

[Donlin Stud]

Thanks Bill And thank you to everyone here who has helped get that number up.
Im amazed at the stats available and I do have to say, the response is more than we had hoped for.