When did Dexter Societies Start Allowing Dehorned Dexters?

[cascade]

The primary dexter organizations say that horned and de-horned dexters are of equal merit.  

When did Dexter organizations start allowing Dehorned Dexters?  

I've seen ZERO difference between dehorned dexters and polled dexters,
except that the polled dexters are MUCH happier because they are born 100% NATURALLY hornless, instead of having horns cut, gouged, or burned off.

[lonecowhand]

That's one good reason the primary Dexter organizations need some healthy competition. Physical dehorning does not genetically modify the Dexter, as you know.

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

You are looking through rose-colored glasses.

Judy

[cascade]

Jun 3, 2015 18:28:19 GMT lonecowhand said:

 Physical dehorning does not genetically modify the Dexter, as you know.

Physical dehorning mutilates the dexter physically... that's why physical dehorning is being banned in many places.

The polled gene naturally switches off horn growth, and does NOT genetically modify the dexter in any other way.

I've had horned, dehorned, and polled dexters and don't see any difference except the presence or absence of horns.

Horns are beautiful, and useful for draft animals....   Those who don't mind horns, should keep them on...  Those who don't want horns should consider the 100% natural polled gene.   There are lots of traditional and legacy polled dexters these days with all those lovely traditional traits (except the horns). 

[lakeportfarms]

Well, lets ban castration then. And ear tagging sure causes the calves to jump. Of course we should ban showing bulls altogether so they don't need to have a sharp object jammed through their septum to insert a nose ring. Or eliminate the nose ring requirement and tell those who attend the fair that they may get crushed by an out of control bull who breaks free and runs around the fairgrounds.

These all cause physical mutilation as well don't they?

Putting them outside in -30 temperatures and blizzard conditions for days on end like we have in Michigan without a heated barn is not something I'd like to experience. And for those down South, out in the blazing hot sun in 100 degree temperatures for days and days sure must be uncomfortable.

Out west they brand their cows either with a hot iron or freeze branding, so no more free range, they should all go into pens and have collars with numbers or something on them so they can be identified.  Or learn to come by number or name when called.

We should let the cows and bulls decide when they need to be culled, as somebody else putting a bullet in their head definitely causes physical mutilation to the head.

[cascade]

While other countries are banning dehorning, The US is considering making dehorning a procedure that can only be done by vets with doctor-administered pain relief (they may do the same with castration and nose rings).

The decision to allow hornless dexters to be considered EQUAL to horned dexters made the breed BOTH A HORNLESS AND HORNED BREED.

I'm pretty certain that the decision to allow for hornless dexters, was made before any of us were born. If you don't like it, you should move to a breed like Texas Longhorns that would disqualify you for hornless cattle.

Dexters are a horned AND HORNLESS breed, just like they are a black and a red breed, and folks fighting FOR the right to de-horn, while fighting against the 100% humane and natural polled gene certainly are confusing.

[lakeportfarms]

The decision to allow polled Dexters was made by people, who changed the decision made by people prior to them. Some don't want to accept the more recent decision, it's as simple as that.

This is a free country, at least for a while longer, and people are free to form their own associations and groups.  There are all kinds of breeds.  Lowline Angus are Angus cattle in a smaller size.  Miniature Herefords are a Hereford in a smaller size.  There are Galloways, and there are Belted Galloways.  Devons and Milking Devons.  They all have separate associations.

The Dexter breed has become all to encompasing, anything goes it seems, and the result of the decisions made by some in the past 30 years now the breed is faced with the same decision to make as some of the other breeds have done in the past.  Those of us who raise the traditional Dexter haven't done this to the breed, it's the polled breeders who have done so.  If you want polled...have at it.  Use the Dexter name like you have.  But if you continue to expect to have your cake selling polled for big bucks, and eat it too by selling your horned "rejects" for the same price and equal to the all horned lines, you're going to get some push back from the breeders who have stuck with the non-Platinum lines and horned Dexters only.  The people behind this movement are now saying you have a choice to make in the direction you are breeding.

There really isn't any more to discuss about it.

[cascade]

The ONLY difference between naturally hornless polled dexters and de-horned dexters, is that the polled dexters weren't subjected to cruelty.

If you form a Horned-Only Dexter Registry, I assume that you will ban de-horning and ban any members who de-horn.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of us decent Dexter breeders support both horned and hornless dexters EQUALLY as per the breed descriptions. We're NOT at war... We support each other. The first question I ask a newbie is "Do you want horns"... if they do, I send them to a horned breeder. If they want horns, I don't try to talk them out of horns. Someone offered to buy my only horned dexter, and I turned them down, because I can't bare to part with her, so I sent them to a horned breeder.


PS. There are TONS of non-Platinum polled dexters in the UK and Australia, waiting to be imported to the US and they meet the qualifications of the major US Registries.

[Deleted]

kirk why are you so obsessed with what we do after all you say we are the minority and you are in the majority. Just go off and breed your polled dexters. I dont care what you breed. why are you so worried about what a small minority does when you are not a part of that minority. 

[lonecowhand]

You are in denial,being a farmer I'm sure you get the concept of "Half breed" in any other organism, why so difficult here?

You haven't excised the polled gene and implanted it in an otherwise intact Dexter, you have outcrossed the Dexter with another breed.

Your choice, don't lament the loss of the original if you like yours better. But don't say they're the same thing.

The impending tons of non-platinum UK polled Dexters will not find welcome amongst traditional breeders, either.

[cascade]

Jun 5, 2015 15:53:34 GMT @dexterfarm said:

kirk why are you so obsessed with what we do after all you say we are the minority and you are in the majority. Just go off and breed your polled dexters. I dont care what you breed. why are you so worried about what a small minority does when you are not a part of that minority. 

Some people in the minority are dis-informing other people with misinformation.   If those folks simply said "Horns are beautiful and horns are functional for draft animals", that would be 100% true and 100% supportable and would be a good marketing approach.

Instead, a handful of radicals go to great lengths to make up stuff that isn't supported by any scientific facts at all.

The radicals say "the polled gene is ruining dexters by completely changing everything about dexters"

That's 100% false.   The polled gene is simply a switch that turns of horn growth and that's all.  Other than that, it doesn't change dexters at all.  

The radicals say "Polled dexters have non-dexters in their background, so that completely ruins all their dexter traits"

That's 100% false...  ALL dexters have non-dexters in their background... Dexters only remain as dexters via continual selection of animals best fitting the breed description.

Imagine if a radical polled breeder said "All horned animals will immediately gore you and kill your entire family".... would you just stand by quietly, or would you try to correct that misinformation?   

We're all minorities in the organization.  I raise my herd very differently than the way most other folks raise their herds.  If we split the organization up based on everyone's differences, we'd have a thousand different tiny organizations, failing left and right.

If you and I compared notes, you'd see that we agree in far MORE areas than we disagree.   I'd send someone to you to get a draft animal, in a heartbeat.  I hope that before you'd let someone dehorn one of your horned dexters, you'd send them to me for a naturally hornless one.

[cascade]

Jun 5, 2015 16:34:47 GMT lonecowhand said:

You are in denial,being a farmer I'm sure you get the concept of "Half breed" in any other organism, why so difficult here?

You haven't excised the polled gene and implanted it in an otherwise intact Dexter, you have outcrossed the Dexter with another breed.

You are denying genetics science.  

Yes, it's true that a first generation cross with another breed is a "half breed"
But the second generation is 75% purebred
the third generation is 87.5% purebred
the fourth generation is 94% purebred
the Fifth generation is 97% pure
the 6th generation is 98.5% pure
the 7th generation is 99.2% pure

Those are just AVERAGES without any selection going on... if you include good selection FOR dexter traits and select AGAINST non-dexter traits, you can reach 100% purebred in just 3 or 4 generations.

Because there is a 50% chance that each gene will be lost each generation, it's very difficult to carry a gene forward in time and nearly impossible to carry more than one gene forward from a distant ancestor through the generations.   You should try it sometime.   

Further, via poor selection or genetic drift, even the purest legacy dexters can lose their dexter traits over a few generations, while via good selection, dexters with non-dexters in their recent backgrounds, can be more PURE in reality than the purest legacy dexter.    

PS...   All dexters have tons of non-dexters in their backgrounds.... just go look at all the holes in Judy's database.... what breeds are in all those gaps?



legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=A&regno=631

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EF5448





 

[lonecowhand]

See , that's where we have a difference of opinion, of which we are both entitled. The first generation, you agree is a half-breed. Now here's where we disagree...If you bred the next generation to a less than purebred dexter, you are not at 75% on the next, or the next.
You would have to have bred the next generation to a purebred to get back to 75%. Etc. I haven't looked , but I think you keep breeding back to Platinum, so those numbers don't work.

Save the "all dexters have tons" speech for someone who doesn't know what they want.

[lonecowhand]

Duplicate

[cascade]

Here's our answer...

"In the 1960's, the Dexter Cattle Society (DCS) in England had a lot of discussion about de-horning. In the mid-sixties, this eventually led to the DCS informing judges that "no points should be deducted for dehorned cattle." At that point, the DCS breed standard began to allow for Dexter cattle in the show ring without horns. For breeders of registered Dexter cattle in England that eventually allowed for polled Dexter cattle to be accepted into the DCS main pedigree registry. In the United States, there wasn't a Dexter breed standard until 1982-83, when at the 1982 ADCA Annual General Meeting, the membership adopted the "Description and Standards for the Dexter Bull". In that description, item 5 addresses horns, as follows: "Horns - these should be moderately thick, springing well from the head, with an inward and slightly upward curve. Removal of the horns is allowed without penalization." The "Description and Standards for the Dexter Cow" was adopted by the membership at the 1983 ADCA Annual General Meeting. In that description, item 5 addresses horns, as follows: "Horns - These should be moderately thick, springing well from the head with an inward and slightly upward curve. Removal of the horns is allowed without penalization." The ADCA Breed Standard (which had not been used as a criteria for registration) was formally redefined as a non-enforceable "Breed Guideline" in 1995."

So Dexters without horns have been part of the British Standard since the 1960's and part of the US Standard since 1983. Anyone having a problem with hornless dexters being part of the breed, needs to go back 50 years in a time machine and complain. Good luck!


PS. It was the dehorning folks who helped us get polled dexters, in case you missed that part.

[lakeportfarms]

Bill, you are correct about breeding back into Platinum lines and the effect it has on the percentage of "purity".  Kirk obviously is going to avoid that simple math equation.  

However, the bigger problem in my opinion is once polled was let into the Dexter breed and became the goal of some breeders, and more profitable and easier to sell because of their initial scarcity, there were less than scrupulous breeders that further introduced polled breeds into their breeding programs to more quickly increase their numbers of polled to sell and our breed from.  It has only recently that parent verification has been mandatory in bulls, and there still exists the opportunity to do it with females.  Under the proposed rule change with the ADCA, it will still be possible to do it with females for the next 15 years or more, although the advantages for doing so has now all but dissapeared with the glut of polled now available.

Kirk likes to say "Why would you do it when you can get homozygous polled bulls?", but 20, even 10 and 5 years ago the majority of Dexters were still horned.  It wasn't easy until UCDavis obtained the polled test to tell whether you had a homozygous polled bull or cow.

Allowing polled into the Dexter breed and not requiring PV of ALL existing Dexters and their progeny opened the floodgates (sorry, bad analogy for you there in California) to the introduction of any kind of breed into the Dexter population.

If it's going to actually happen, I actually wish that the ADCA genotyping and PV requirements were more strict and didn't "grandfather"  (or "grandmother" ) the existing females prior to 2016.  If traditional Dexters become desirable again, the very folks who cheated their way into the polled ranks, would probably try to do the same with the Traditional Dexter!  It's all about money, and not the protection of the breed to them.  History is littered with people who have been burned by others when something becomes in short supply, and in demand.  Shortcuts are commonly employed.  Why would we think that all Dexter breeders and owners are above that?

[cascade]

Jun 6, 2015 10:47:21 GMT lakeportfarms said:

Bill, you are correct about breeding back into Platinum lines and the effect it has on the percentage of "purity".  Kirk obviously is going to avoid that simple math equation.  

However, the bigger problem in my opinion is once polled was let into the Dexter breed and became the goal of some breeders, and more profitable and easier to sell because of their initial scarcity, there were less than scrupulous breeders that further introduced polled breeds into their breeding programs to more quickly increase their numbers of polled to sell and our breed from.  It has only recently that parent verification has been mandatory in bulls, and there still exists the opportunity to do it with females.  Under the proposed rule change with the ADCA, it will still be possible to do it with females for the next 15 years or more, although the advantages for doing so has now all but dissapeared with the glut of polled now available.

Kirk likes to say "Why would you do it when you can get homozygous polled bulls?", but 20, even 10 and 5 years ago the majority of Dexters were still horned.  It wasn't easy until UCDavis obtained the polled test to tell whether you had a homozygous polled bull or cow.

Allowing polled into the Dexter breed and not requiring PV of ALL existing Dexters and their progeny opened the floodgates (sorry, bad analogy for you there in California) to the introduction of any kind of breed into the Dexter population.

If it's going to actually happen, I actually wish that the ADCA genotyping and PV requirements were more strict and didn't "grandfather"  (or "grandmother" ) the existing females prior to 2016.  If traditional Dexters become desirable again, the very folks who cheated their way into the polled ranks, would probably try to do the same with the Traditional Dexter!  It's all about money, and not the protection of the breed to them.  History is littered with people who have been burned by others when something becomes in short supply, and in demand.  Shortcuts are commonly employed.  Why would we think that all Dexter breeders and owners are above that?

Saltaire Platinum is a 100% purebred dexter....  Just like the descendants of Parndon Bullfinch are 100% purebred. 

If you believe that Dexters can never be made pure over several generations of good selection for defined dexter traits, then you MUST wrongly believe that NO dexter is pure dexter.  All dexters have TONS of other breeds in their backgrounds.   All dexters started as 100% NON-DEXTER.   Even the purest of "Legacy" dexters have tons of blanks spaces on their pedigrees in the early 1900's with unknown breeds mixed in.  The pure-breeding process is all about starting with other breeds, and creating new breeds via a pure-breeding process.   Are you saying that every dexter with Parndon Bullfinch in the background is only a half-breed dexter?   If you're saying that, then you have zero understanding of genetics, selection, and the pure-breeding process, AND you're misleading others. 

When we were deciding on a heritage breed of cattle a dozen years ago, we considered both Scottish Highland Cattle, and Irish Dexter Cattle for their rugged heritage qualities .....   We chose dexters as our breed of choice because Dexters have recognized Horned and Hornless as EQUAL in writing since the 1960's and because dexters are friendlier and safer, AND because dexters are dual purpose. 

When we looked into polled dexters 11 years ago, we were offered our choice of two red homozygous polled bulls with DNA tests proving they were homozygous polled.  The one we selected, Belle Forche Frasier,  was not only Homozygous polled but was also A2/A2.   He also had extensive family tree parentage mapping.  This friendly Homozygous Polled, Red, A2/A2 PUREBRED DEXTER bull with great milk genetics was MUCH lower priced than black lowline angus with poor milk genetics and poor behavior too.

We had 100% polled (mostly red) calves from traditional horned moms for many years from Belle Fourche Frasier and he is still pumping out calves at age 11 in the rugged mountains of Idaho  (our starter herd, sold as a group, is still together and still producing).   Other than horns, we saw ZERO difference between the horned moms, and the polled calves.    The ONLY difference between polled and not-polled is the horns.

Here's the homozygous polled test from the DNA testing lab that many dexter breeders were using a dozen years ago.


 


PS.  Did you know that the Peerless Herd in America was primarily a Milking Shorthorn Cattle Herd and they had a relatively small handful of Dexters mixed in as a hobby breed?....   Without parentage verification, you can bet that "LEGACY" and "TRADITIONAL"  dexters have all sorts of other breeds mixed in.    Don't forget, the owners of the Grinstead Herd also kept Red Poll cattle.   Oh, and the source of Dexters from Ireland to America also did lots of crossing with Angus.   But if you undertand the purebreeding process, and select for DEXTER traits generation after genertation, that's NOT a problem.