Traditionalists Reject Black Horned, But Accept Red Hornless

[cascade]

Some of those radical irrational horned traditionalist folks on the Traditional Horned Facebook group are currently considering rejecting this beautiful registered traditional horned black bull and all of his traditional black horned descendants.




But they are accepting this HORNLESS red bull and also many of his red hornless descendants




Both of these genetically horned bulls, have polled ancestry.  Both have great great great grandparents with outcrossing.

Sure seems irrational for the traditional HORNED dexter group to reject the black horned bull, but accept the red hornless bull.   I hope they do something rational, or their cause will be lost.


PS.  Most of my herd looks a lot like the accepted red hornless bull, so I guess that makes me MORE traditional than folks with black horned dexters?
 

Here are the pedigrees of the two animals above:

www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=14339&ParentID=8221&Page=2&Sort=6 

www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=3182&HorseName=lucifer&Page=1&Sort=0 

[jamshundred]

Right will always rise just as the cream crowns the milk.

In a ten line pedigree Licifer of Knotting reflects one introgressionwhich did not remove the horns from the horned breed.
In a ten line pedigree Saltaire Platinum records FOUR introgressions, breeds unknown (dear lord what will happen if even one of the many possible genetic recessives hits those bloodlines?) and he did not enter the Dexter world as a purebred animal. He was a GRADE bull. Not one post, not one hundred posts, not a thousand posts will ever change that fact.

Judy

[cascade]

Parndon Charlie Pudding is on 99% of "Traditional" pedigrees.

On his 10-Line Pedigree, he literally has HUNDREDS of introgressions of non-dexters.

He did not enter the Dexter World as a PUREBRED ANIMAL.

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EM1928

His grandfather, Round Chimneys Roly Poly, isn't even 50% dexter

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EM1633

He did not enter the dexter world as a Purebred dexter

The dexter breed isn't some heaven-sent angel of purity. Even the "Purest" of of "Legacy" dexters have a historically colorful background filled with many other breeds of cattle. That's what makes them dexters. What keeps them as dexters, is continued selection for traits we identify as dexters AND registration in a large and long-lived Dexter Registry.

Hypocrites cry about naturally hornless animals born naturally without horns, yet they gouge, cut, and burn horns off their own "Traditional Horned" dexters.

Hypocrites cry about introgressions, yet they accept tons of "Traditional" animals with introgressions far WORSE than Saltaire Platinum.

Anyone who has ever dehorned a dexter or kept a dehorned dexter, gets full credit for changing dexters into both a horned AND hornless breed. The polled gene simply eliminated the inhumane horror of physical dehorning.

[jamshundred]

Goodness ! !    It looks like Legacy has become the "go-to-place" for pedigree records.  Pretty impressive for a registry you think should not be recognized.   LAUGHING OUT LOUD !

I have yet to meet a polled breeder that didn't ooze hypocrisy Kirk.   YOU had a fit when the Legacy registry filled in the correct information from the herd books on Saltaire Platinum, but the current known information on a traditional line you proclaim to the world.

Should ALL of the errors known in the ADCA registry be corrected to show the known or unknown status of animals?    If yes, that's the answer, if No, please state why.

What IS the current policy, rule/regulation in the ADCA registry IF an animal does not confirm to the recorded parentage?  Do you know?


Judy

[cascade]

The online Legacy database definitely is a terrific resource for looking at ancient old historical records online....THANK YOU Judy, for putting that out there where we can all see it and enjoy it, and thanks for the thousands of hours of hard work.

I've NEVER had a fit with you noting a correction in your historical database if you have 100% factual evidence of better data. But I did have a fit when you replaced the official record, with an uncalled-for comment, instead of using better data. If you have a corrected record and label it as corrected (with a professional note explaining your correction), then I 100% support that in your historical database. While you're at it... please remove "Horned" from any animal that you don't have evidence that they indeed were horned... either leave it blank, or say "Horned or Polled"

I wouldn't mind having you put a corrected version of Saltaire Platinum's pedigree out there with his likely registered polled Milking Shorthorn great great grandsire, with a note saying "This isn't proven, but represents one strong theory of a mix-up of calves"

Concerning correction of data in the Official ADCA registry, I don't believe that the ADCA should single-handedly change records that have come from a foreign registry, without working with that foreign registry to have THEM initiate the change.  If the ADCA makes a single-handed change, it could cause a ton of confusion. 

I believe the current policy is that if the ADCA finds an error that originated in THEIR records, and if they have 100% proof of better data, then they will make the correction. But if an error is reported in data from a foreign registry, then the ADCA won't consider changing that foreign data until the foreign registry makes the change.

All that said, old historical data out beyond 4 or 5 generations is mostly meaningless according to genetics experts. Each generation, 50% of each ancestor's genetics are lost. It's VERY difficult to get even a single gene to pass forward more than 3 or 4 generations, and nearly impossible to get 2 or more significant genes to pass forward 4 or 5 generations.

So while those old historical pedigrees are historically interesting, they are practically useless in selecting for the traits we love in our wonderful dexters. A well-selected dexter with lots of outcrossing out 4 or 5 generations, can be MUCH more pure in traits, than a poorly selected dexter with a 30 generation "Pure" pedigree. We're not breeding paper-dexters, we're breeding real dexters that happen to have papers.

If you want to save traditional traits, then make a list of those traditional traits and work with people to select for those traits, generation after generation.


PS.  I believe more horned calves were registered last year than polled calves.... It doesn't seem that we're in danger of losing horns.