Define Traditional Without the words "Polled" or "Platinum"

[cascade]

I find it amusing that the radical fundamentalist preservationists are unable to define their "Traditionally Horned Dexters" without using the word "Polled" or the name "Saltaire Platinum".  

They're so obsessed with the naturally hornless (polled) feature in Dexters, and obsessed with the super excellent bull Saltaire Platinum, that they can't stop thinking about them, and they feel they must include those words in their definition of "Traditionally Horned Dexters".

Here, I'll take a stab at defining "traditionally horned dexters" WITHOUT using the words "polled" and "platinum"......


"Traditional Horned Dexters are dexters with horns and other traditional traits including dual or triple purpose features  (beef, milk, work)"


Wow!  That was easy....   Notice that I didn't use the words "Polled" nor "Platinum" 

Feel free to use it, if you like it.

 

[jamshundred]

I am sooooo sorry that you invested both your financial and emotional resources into someone else's deceit Kirk. It is a tragedy for you but for the Dexter breed, a little horned breed of dwarf cattle, gathered from the hills of Ireland, treasured for their uniqueness, and now nearing extinction in America.   

You ou are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. You are no different than Richard Gradwhol who used the original Dexter to develop anumbers of new breeds, with the exception that he was honest and gave them new names. He did not try to trade on the foundation breed by calling them something they are not.  

Not one post, not a hundred posts, not a thousand posts will change the fact that Dexter cattle are a treasured breed of HORNEd cattle, unique and special.


Judy

[cascade]

I have VERY friendly, compact, dual and triple purpose registered dexters in black and red, that completely meet the breed description. I just got back from getting some milk from them. I've provided people with horned working oxen born on my farm. I NEVER dehorn calves. Most of mine are 100% naturally hornless. I've got a good number of short dexters, but they are 100% naturally short (True-Short), without the lethal chondrodysplasia dwarfism gene.

Meanwhile, the radical "purists" in the "Traditionally Horned" Dexter facebook group can't even agree that "Traditionally Horned" dexters should have horns as they continue to burn, cut, and gouge horns off of their "horned" animals, and they proudly post pictures of "Traditional" dexters that are 48" tall at 2 years of age, and proudly post pictures of "Traditional" dexters with white on the forehead, and proudly pictures of LARGE working oxen, and they happily breed from animals that have tons of outcrossing from Parndon Bullfinch who is on 99% of pedigrees. I don't see a big problem with any of that... good continued selection can improve those animals in the long haul.


I'm very happy with my really great herd of 100% purebred, compact, dual-purpose dexters... You should come see them. They hang out in the woods in the heat of the summer day, and head out into the meadows to graze when hungry. NONE of them have ever seen the inside of a barn... they were all born in the woods and meadows. They calve VERY easily.... we just go out to the woods and find mom with her newborn. We've had nearly 140 calves born and NEVER had a vet involved.

Gotta love Dexters.... they're great WITH horns, and they're great 100% naturally hornless (polled).

[bruff64]

"radical fundamentalist preservationists", "burn, cut, and gouge horns off", "radical purists". PETA would love you. And they could care less if your cattle are polled. Regardless of where anyone stands on the horned/polled issue, your comments are destructive to the breed and the ADCA.

[cascade]

I'm Just pointing out hypocrites who are radically fighting against 100% Naturally Hornless Dexters, while cutting, burning, and gouging horns off their own Dexters and still claiming that Dexters are supposed to have horns.

The "Traditionally Horned" dexter group can't even define their Dexters as having horns, because so many have been cut off.

The Traditional group also can't define their Dexter's as short in stature because they have some 48" giant females at two years of age that they are "preserving".

The group is falling flat because they can't even make a simple list of traits that "Traditional" Dexters must have to be considered Traditional.

[jamshundred]

Dexter cattle are a horned breed.   That there are folks in the breed who have cattle that are dehorned.  ..    .they are folks who were not instructed to value the heritage of this horned breed or not to fear the horns.  The LEADERSHIP of this breed is solely responsible for what has taken place.  I know of two members who were very, very, early polled breeders who were afraid of horns.  Rather than move to a breed that has no horns, they made a decision to have their cake and eat it too .. . . at the expense of a RARE, small-in-number, minor heritage breed of unique and special cattle.

After the horns, the Dexter owners must be taught that Dexter cattle were established on a dwarf phenotype, and both the dwarf- and non-dwarf offspriong should continue to be bred so that these genetics which carry unique traits in the breed are not lost.

All of the traits you list as important Kirk, but with NO modern genetics interspersed, because . .  .there is a law of nature that cannot be denied.  For every action there is a reaction.  When the glass is full to the brim and you add a single drop, another single drop spills from the glass.  

We can see with our eyes the phenotype of Dexters has not only changed. . . . but changed drastically.  In pictures of old it was a simple matter to find a Dexter in any mix of cows, and not only because of the size, but because of the unique phenotype.   In modern photos, it is an absolute impossibility to place a large number of the Dexters I now see in photos in a mixed field of Angus black and red, Jersey, Brown Swiss, lowlines, and not see that the breed resembles them all.  

We are now also beginning to see through the eyes and words of others the drastic drift in this breed internally.   Case after case of dystocia births and dead calves.  Saw another one today.  There seems not a week that passes, and this is simply NOT a trait of Dexters.  Chat boards are full of reports of calling the vet for various illnesses.  Dexter cattle were renowned for their  good health and strong immune systems.  I was told that when hundreds of thousands of cattle were stacked and burned in England when the hoof and mouth disease raged across the country, the Dexter breed avoided the crisis.  There is no way that the forage and conditions and constant graining that the modern Dexters are receiving isn't changing their forage genetics.    

I am sorry Kirk.  You have nice cattle, and you and other polled breeders should have (1) been informed from day one that they were outcrossed and downgraded several times because I am betting you would have thought twice, (2) discovered them through a seperate registry or category that gave them the new identity they should have, (3) been able to find somewhere, . . . anywhere. . .  . . .information on rare minor breeds and the reasons to preserve them. 

Darn it Kirk, when they are gone.  .. . they are gone forever.   We didn't breed the Eagle to a Condor to save it or to increase it's numbers.   Had that been done, very few Americans would have accepted the offspring as eagles.  It is no different with the polled Dexters.  They are NOT Dexters.  They are descendents of a grade cow that through ignorance, error, or fraud, was brought into the breed to satisfy the willfulness of some, and a couple other outcrossed animals that did not qualify to be registered.  There is NO longer even a vestige of pretense.  Science is exposing the deceit that a lazy or greedy leadership failed to find in the herd books.  What's it going to take?  Do Americans have to file complaints with the DCS and the European Union to FORCE action that in all likelihood would be drastic if successful, or couldn't owners of polled animals stop pretending now. . .. and help the leadership make some changes  to save the breed on their own?  There IS now enough evidence, both circumstantial and documented to overturn the "error" that is destroying the breed.

Judy 

[jamshundred]

I find it amusing

PS.   I don't think you find it amusing.  It sounds to me like you are seething.  You should be.  There are people responsible for your plight still making bad decisions in this breed and you are supporting them.

Judy

[cascade]

Saltaire Platinum is far MORE pure than Limbury Fan.... and Limbury Fan is on 99% of supposedly "Traditional" pedigrees.

Limbury Fan isn't even 50% dexter.

Limbury Fan and all of her descendants are 100% "Modern" by YOUR defintion

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O®no=EF6088


Looks like the irrational traditionalists better ban all dexters that have LIMBURY FAN on the pedigree....

OR... the irrational traditionalists could come to their senses, and judge traditional dexters by their TRAITS which is the ONLY rational approach that is backed by genetic science and animal science.

[lakeportfarms]

Here's a nice red polled Dexter bull near you Kirk:

eugene.craigslist.org/grd/5057284403.html

Here is another one. They also have Lowline Angus. Interesting that they have both breeds at the same farm isn't it?

fayar.craigslist.org/grd/5038284215.html

This posting expired, but here is the text. If that Dexter bull is registered and genotyped those cross calves could be sold as Dexters. All you need are a few registered Dexters that had steers this year and assign the calves to them. They could even be genotyped and parent verified to the sire!


"Miniature bulls
Apr 26, 2015 ... Also have a 3 year old dexter bull that has bred some of my low line angus".

[cascade]

But Hans, You have horned Scottish Highlands on your farm, and hornless Dexters too.... and you cross them regularly, don't you?

Did you know that the supposed "Legacy" Horned Dexters that were imported into the US in the early 1900's, were crossbred with Angus in Ireland in experimental breeding?

Did you know that the owners of the famed Peerless "Legacy" dexter herd were primarily Milking Shorthorn Cattle breeders with relative few dexters mixed in?

If you want some pure Dexters that fully meet the breed description including being DUAL PURPOSE, let me know, I've NEVER had anything but 100% purebred registered Dexters on my farm. Many of mine are almost TOO milky... I doubt they have any angus in them. My original homozygous polled dexter bull had extensive family-tree DNA mapping, and he threw VERY milky daughters.


PS. With so many folks having multiple breeds of cattle on their farms, it's a good thing that the ADCA will be implementing full parentage verification sooner than later.

PPS. I still find it very funny that NONE of you can define TRADITIONAL dexters without using the words "Polled" and "Platinum".

PPPS. I do wish you lived nearby... I think you have a very good eye for cattle, and I'd love to have you visit my herd and help me work on selection.