Parndon Bullfinch = Modern British Import, Outcrossed

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Sorry, fundamentalist traditionalists....  most ALL your supposed "Traditional" animals have been found to contain Modern British Imports with tons of outcrossing. 

Parndon Bullfinch is a VERY heavily used bull on 99% of your pedigrees, multiple times in many cases, and he's a MODERN British Import with far MORE outcrossing than Saltaire Platinum.  He was heavily used in the 1970's.

Parndon Bullfinch has a NON-Dexter great grandmother, possibly polled.  That makes him at least 1/16th non-dexter. 

Here's Parndon Bullfinch's pedigree, notice his non-Dexter Great Grandmother "Limbury Fan" with a completely unknown dam  (was she a polled angus?... nobody knows).

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=A&regno=1361


Here's Parndon Bullfinch's grandsire's pedigree...  He's not even 50% dexter

He's got more holes in his 5 generation pedigree, than Swiss cheese.

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EM1633


Looks like you're going to have to go back to the drawing board to define traditional dexters based on their TRAITS... not their pedigrees, since all your wrongly labeled "Traditional" pedigrees have now been found to contain Modern British Imports with loads of non-dexters on their pedigrees. 

The very good news is that what really makes "Traditional" Dexters "Traditional" is selecting for traditional TRAITS, generation after generation... So if you really want to preserve dexters.... then make a detail list of important traits you're afraid of losing and preserve those traits.

If you love horns, then select horns,  if you love black, then select black..  If you want great udders, then select for that.... If you want super friendly cows, then select for that.  If you want extra compact dexters, then select for that....  It's really much easier than you're making it out to be.




  

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By the way, here's an interesting note to me from the late, great Beryl Rutherford (Woodmagic) back in 2007, concerning the non-dexters in Parndon Bullfinch's background

Postby Woodmagic » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:47 am

"Kirk, The only one of the three that I personally knew was Charlie Pudding. He was owned for many years by Phillippa Laing, and his breeding convinced her that he was in fact a cross with a Guernsey. She bought him as pure and showed him very successfully, when I first saw him I was not satisfied; there was something about the head that wasn’t right. What clinched it was when he was run with a Guernsey herd and produced a string of Guernsey calves. I suggest you contact Phillippa who will confirm this, as soon as she knew there was something wrong, she contacted the society, but it was already old history by then. Much too late to remedy it. I understand the breeder belatedly confirmed the cross."
Woodmagic


So, for you traditionalists, don't worry too much about the Guernsey genetics in your not-so-pure "Traditional" dexters, because via ongoing selection for "traditional" dexter traits, you can gradually eliminate any Guernsey features from your dexters.



PS.  WE MISS YOU, BERYL !!!!

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

Your trade is gossip. You keep demanding FACTS and then YOU trade in GOSSIP.  There is certainly a feeling of seething frustration and desperation in your recent posts.  

The other gossip ( from the same source) about Parndon Bullfinch is that Dr. Thrower brought THREE bulls from the GASK herd of Scotland (fullblood Dexters it is said ) into his herd in England. He did not transfer the registrations but he used the bulls substituting identities with his own bulls.  So, which gossip do you believe. . . . that PCD was part Guernsey or that his sire was FULLBLOOD.
  
You proclaim yourself sufficiently adept in science. Then why are you trading on gossip? I AM confused. Let's trade on the science. DNA science. Every member of ADCA was given the DNA markers on Parndon Bullfinch and you certainly have enough contacts to get a copy.   Half would have came from his sire, half from his dam. His markers are consistently DEXTER. Unlike Lucifer for instance, who has a strange marker ( 95) in TGLA227, Bullfinch is consistent with early Dexters where he is not an ancestor. THAT IS SCIENCE . . . NOT GOSSIP.

I am sad that in one discussion you want to debate that gossip should be ignored and science relied upon, and yet you and ADCA use gossip to try and buffer the GRADE statis of the polled lines by using gossip to devalue the breed value of the traditional lines.  That's not leadership.   FOUR outcrosses of unknown heritage in a TEN line pedigree for Saltaire Platinum when his granddam wasn't even purebred. . . well that IS a disaster. .. .Kirk. . .. so I understand the SEETHING FRUSTRATION you seem to be experiencing. However, you keep forgetting this bull is ALSO in your lines. . . . .and if the gossip were true. . . . then you would have FIVE introgressions in the 10 line pedigree.  What are you gaining with your gossip?


Back to the gossip. Do you think Dr. and Mrs. Thrower were out there working the herd, or do you suppose they had a herd manager?

( Hint - the last is correct). Mrs. Thrower was taken out, gotten drunk, and convinced to "confess" her husband turned a Guernsey bull in with the cows. Thus. . . .PCP was 1/2 Guernsey.. . . . . . . . What a horrible thing to do to a widow who probably rarely ever set foot in the paddocks.    BUT WAIT. . . . . . . how much credence are you really willing to give that confession Kirk? YOU are the one who claims scientific knowledge and experience, right? Hmmmm. Well, take a look at the dam of Parndon Charley Pudding. She was. . . . . .RED ! ! ! Guernsey cattle are genetically RED. OOPS. That mating would have meant PCP was a RED BULL. He was black Oh dear! Science of red color came along ( back in the time this fairy tale was adapted it was not available) and blew the story apart.   Are you fully cognizant that the fairy tale was developed when there was no testing for color patterns in cattle and it was destroyed as soon as there was?  And here you are, the resident scientist. . . .  repeating gossip that cannot be scientifically accurate.


So, why did they get the notion that there was a Guernsey in the mix? Because Mrs. Laing loaned her bull to a herd of dairy cattle and there were white markings. ( You missed another story but I'd let you find it by yourself - wouldn't want to ruin your fun). So. . . . immediately it is assumed there was an outcrossing. I was the first person to suggest to Philipa Laing that there had been white markings in the Dexter breed from the foundation animals carrying recessive and as you know can carry for generations, then breed an animal to other animals with the same recessives ( or expressed) and you get a double dose and the markings get expressed.  I am sincerely surprised that Mrs. Rutherford would be party to gossip. . . . especially since her herd was so often the victim of the same type of lack of knowledge gossip.   It is easy to say someone said something. . . but I prefer it in writing.   I've already experienced a master of deceit contributing comments to Mrs. Rutherford that I know she could not have made, but it is very difficult to disprove a "he said, she said" when someone is dead and cannot confirm or deny.  I'm very surprised, based on everything I've read that she has written and in shared emails that she would make such a comment.  Why don't you try to find the photos of the GASK bulls and see if you can find a resemblance.  I have been studying photos of Dexters for years and years and outcrossed Dexters and seen them in person.  Prove ( or disprove) the gossip.  That's what a good researcher sets out to do.


Let's move to the American herd. If Parndon Bullfinch was carrying those Guernsey genes, where did the red go Kirk? He is ED/ED. And where did the Guernsey markings go? I spoke with every living breeder I could find and none of them had cattle born with white markings down from this line. I spoke to breeders who bred those animals. . . same results.
 And even in lines where Lucifer is present, unlike when Lucifer and SP are in a pedigree together, white markings do not explode on the offspring.  Explain that.


There is much more research I could relate as to PCP and Parndon Bullfinch. . but you are in "spread the gossip" mode rather than a "scientific mode". What a pity. A GOOD scientist never permits their emotions to override their good judgement and scientific research skills and your seething frustration is diminishing your credibility.



However, Kirk, perhaps you could research SGF STIT Blaze and tell us where these Guernsey markings came from? It takes two parents both carrying the genes you know.      Is there a SIXTH outcrossing yet to be discovered in these lines?

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The spotted calf pictured above has the bull "Brian O Briar Hill" on the Pedigree 4 times (on both sides of the pedigree) also has Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy on both sides of the pedigree, and has Parndon Charlie Pudding on the pedigree many many times.... when you say "These lines  have spotting" are you talking about the O' Briar Hill lines? or the Parndon lines?   or Wee Gaelic lines?

Science tells us that there are lots of different possible alleles at the spotting locus that call for more or less spotting in various degrees, and also call for placement of spotting. All these alleles are recessive to the No-Spotting allele. It works that way in sheep, cattle, goats, dogs, cats etc..

Science tells us that a certain percentage of ALL dexters including "legacy" and "traditional" dexters carry various spotting genes.

Science tells us that nearly 100% of ALL dexter genes came from other breeds (the rest are MUTATIONS within the breed).

Science tells us that the Dexter breed never went through a "Purification" process to remove all those hidden genes, so most of them are still there at certain frequencies.

Science tells us it's silly to worry about an occasional old introgression on old pedigress, because Dexters already have scores of genes from other breeds.... that's what make Dexters "Dexters" is all those genes in the Dexter gene pool, AND ongoing selection for Dexter traits.

Science tells us that ongoing trait selection against a list of detailed Dexter traits is the only way to keep dexters as "DEXTERS"

Science tells us that studying old pedigrees is entertaining and historically interesting, but mostly useless in breeding for "Dexter" traits.

Saltaire Platinum was very well selected for his dexter traits.

Parndon Bullfinch was also very well selected for his dexter traits.

Both are Modern Imports from the UK

Both have some modern outcrossing on their pedigrees.

Bullfinch was selected to NOT have his father's key Guernsey traits.

Saltaire Platinum and his sire were selected to NOT have their Milking Shorthorn ancestor's key traits

Both throw EXCELLENT dexters with excellent dexter traits.

Because both of them are well selected for Dexter traits, both of them are highly desirable.

Bullfinch is on 99% of today's pedigrees, Platinum is on fewer pedigrees.

Both of them are ancient history.

What matters today, is ongoing selection for excellent dexter traits and ongoing culling of any non-conforming traits.


PS.  Historically, Guernseys had blacks among them.  They didn't settle on Red-only, until later.   Many folks still had some blacks. 


PPS. Folks who started dehorning dexters eons ago, are responsible for changing the dexter breed into both a horned and hornless breed. Saltaire Platinum simply eliminated the pain and agony of dehorning.