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Post by jamshundred on Jun 29, 2015 11:16:57 GMT
Craig Turpin Traditionally Horned Dexter Cattle
In commenting on another thread, I was reminded of a VERY significant comment that Dr. Sponenberg (from the Livestock Convervancy) made at the AGM last week. I asked him if he regarded Dexters as a legitimate breed in their own right, or if they were actually an amalgamation of several breeds in Ireland, with no particular claim to unique heritage. (A claim that a prominent Dexter breeder told me, in order to persuade me to forgo my Legacy preservation efforts. Interestingly this same individual, who showed so little regard for Dexters, is a very frequent poster on this page that is intended to support preservation efforts of the very animals that she tried to convince me were unworthy of earnest preservation efforts.) Dr. Sponenberg was quite clear in pointing out that ALL breeds start somewhere prior to being a recognized breed, and that Dexters are in fact much purer than MANY other breeds. Hopefully this expert proclamation, not to mention results from the Cardiff study, can put this slander of the original Dexter bloodlines to rest once and for all.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 29, 2015 16:39:24 GMT
Go Craig!
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Post by cascade on Jun 29, 2015 21:58:42 GMT
Of course Dexters are a breed in their own right... but that doesn't mean they didn't come from an amalgamation of this and that and the other. Most breeds come from an amalgamation of this and that and the other. The foundational roots of stock are usually NOT yet purified, so trying to "Preserve" the foundation isn't a good thing. Usually the early breeders had a target in mind and expected to take many, many, decades to get there. For example, the early breeders of Dexters hoped to purify and stabilize the breed to all be truly compact and shorter legged (but Chondro interfered with that).
"Purity" is a fuzzy subjective concept. A truly "Pure" breed would look like clones of each other.... all the same color, all the same size, all the same features, all the same attitudes and behaviors. Pure breeds have tons of the same homozygous pairs of genes across the entire breed. That certainly doesn't describe dexters. The lethal chondro-gene itself hugely interfered with Dexters becoming "Pure" in traits because chondro dexters can't even breed true and chondro is lethal in the homozygous condition.
Sure, dexters may be more pure than some other breeds, but they are also LESS pure than many, many breeds.
Paper purity and actual purity are two very different things (especially since none of the old papers are accurate due to a lack of parentage verification).
Preserving papers and preserving actual animal traits are two different things.
There is only ONE way to preserve actual traditional Dexters, and that is to make a detailed list of traits you are preserving and select for those traits generation after generation after generation. Burying your nose in ancient questionable pedigrees is historically VERY interesting, but serves no practical purpose in preserving the traits of a breed.
Exactly what traits are you afraid of losing? Exactly what traits do you want people to "preserve"?
I'm preserving all the great traits of dexters on my farm... VERY Friendly, relatively safe, compact, sturdy, productive, beefy AND milky, shorter legs, little or no veterinary care needed, no assistance in calving needed, little or no shelter needed, solid red or black (a little white on underline).
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Post by cascade on Jun 30, 2015 20:12:10 GMT
Dr. Sponenberg at the ADCA AGM also said
" if you are arguing over 3% impurity in the breed; You need to find a new hobby!"
That triggered huge applause from the crowd.
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 1, 2015 2:05:05 GMT
I don't believe you have your hearsay correct. Let's pretend it's close. The GRADE bull, Saltaire Platinum, can't make it to 97% with a miracle from his maker. He isn't even purebred.
If you are desperate for 97%. I am sure there is a sale barn near you with small red angus that you could breed down further in size and they would be very similar to what you are working with now.
You need to come on over and be a radical Kirk. .. . . . . .BE part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Help SAVE a rare heritage breed, almost lost to indiscriminate outcrossing, deceit, and filthy lucre.
Get a cause! Anyone can easily get and breed grade animals. Finding, saving, and restoring, rare horned Dexters IS a cause worthy of an effort. Go for it!
Judy
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Post by cascade on Jul 1, 2015 4:29:49 GMT
Saltaire Platinum is likely 1/32 Superior Registered Polled Milking Shorthorn (on paper) due to a likely calf mixup in one of his 4 great grandmothers. 31/32nd pure dexter on paper, makes him 97% pure on paper.... but selection for excellent dexter traits over 5 generations makes him 100% purebred dexter. His sons and daughters are 99% pure on paper. His grandchildren are 99.5% pure on paper. PS. Parndon Charlie Pudding is only about 85% pure on paper legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O®no=EM1928Not saying there is anything wrong with him, he might have been well selected for dexter-like traits. PPS. I want to be part of the solution by working toward making better Dexter Standards to help people select for true Dexter traits. Good ongoing selection against a standard, is critical to maintaining a breed. PPPS. The old historical pedigrees are INCREDIBLY interesting and I'm thankful to have access to them online.... but they aren't useful in making today's breeding selection decisions. |
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Post by lilbitty on Jul 7, 2015 5:23:45 GMT
I whole heartedly support the idea of breeding "toward making better Dexter Standards to help people select for true Dexter traits" so that the animals shown and winning at the AGM look like the Dexters of old, and actually meet the breed standards (this should be a REQUIREMENT in order to show in my opinion).
This is what I plan to do with my herd.
I ALSO believe in preserving the early bloodlines that the Dexter breed was originally based on, because... THIS is what the breed was based on. This is why breed associations and pedigrees were invented... DUH!
The ADCA has NEVER accepted upgrading for just this reason.
Despite the fact that the ADCA has NEVER accepted upgrading a few folks slipped in some UK animals with upgraded pedigrees to advance their own personal fortunes at the expense of breed integrity. In one notable case the BOD at the time explicitly voted to EXCLUDE one of these animals, only to find when they reconvened a year later that the very same animal and his progeny were NOW ADCA registered, and interestingly those folks who outmaneuvered the BOD had obvious financial motivations for doing so. Go here for a first hand account: www.thomasdexters.com/index.asp?ID=72 Not only was the breed purity intentionally perverted in the '90s, but it was done so in an EXTREMELY underhanded (and probably illegal) way.
If none of this bothers you, then go ahead and breed from those blood lines, and PLEASE try to keep them looking as "Dexter" as possible, because unfortunately these 1990's steps cannot be undone, only remediated.
I have discussed breeding goals with MANY MANY Dexter breeders over the years, and I have heard statements like "Milking traits aren't useful..." or "Beef traits aren't useful..." or "Coat color traits aren't useful..." or "A2 milk traits aren't useful..." "... too my breeding goals." I have never once argued those statements because they are made by individuals about their own goals.
Unless you would like to amend this statement: "The old historical pedigrees are INCREDIBLY interesting and I'm thankful to have access to them online.... but they aren't useful in making today's breeding selection decisions," by inserting "to me" after the word "useful," I must disagree to an extent I am incapable of describing in writing.
What makes you think that you have the right to dictate what other's breeding criteria should be?
For my part (as well as a few others), we prefer to maintain not only the Dexter Phenotype, but ALSO the Dexter Genotype, so I totally disagree that historical pedigrees "aren't useful in making today's breeding selection decisions." For me, and others they are a VERY significant part of our breeding decisions.
For me, it is important that old genetics are preserved for a very long list of reasons (many of which you can learn more about on websites such as these (to exhibit just a few):
www.infoplease.com/spot/farmanimals1.html
accokeekfoundation.org/education/livestock/
www.halcyon.com/tmend/heirloom.htm
www.livestockconservancy.org/
sospecies.org/
journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0040415
www.esasuccess.org/
www.hobbyfarms.com/livestock-and-pets/raising-rare-breeds-livestock.aspx
www.esasuccess.org/
If you choose not to preserve old genetics, fine. Just stop trying to convince those of us that ARE preserving them that we are wrong, and stop obstructing our efforts at every turn.
PLEASE find something CONSTRUCTIVE to do with your Dexter interests rather than continually trying to subvert ours.
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Post by lilbitty on Jul 7, 2015 5:28:54 GMT
BTW, I TOTALLY agree with Dr. Sponenberg and the uselessness in arguing about some level of impurity in a breed.
I don't WANT to argue about it.
I want to be able to breed to my goals, and communicate with folks who share those goals in a forum intended for that purpose without someone constantly interjecting their contrary thoughts that we are ALL already VERY well aware of.
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Post by cascade on Jul 7, 2015 16:39:44 GMT
I whole heartedly support the idea of breeding "toward making better Dexter Standards to help people select for true Dexter traits" so that the animals shown and winning at the AGM look like the Dexters of old, and actually meet the breed standards (this should be a REQUIREMENT in order to show in my opinion).
This is what I plan to do with my herd.
I ALSO believe in preserving the early bloodlines that the Dexter breed was originally based on, because... THIS is what the breed was based on. This is why breed associations and pedigrees were invented... DUH!
The ADCA has NEVER accepted upgrading for just this reason.
Despite the fact that the ADCA has NEVER accepted upgrading a few folks slipped in some UK animals with upgraded pedigrees to advance their own personal fortunes at the expense of breed integrity. In one notable case the BOD at the time explicitly voted to EXCLUDE one of these animals, only to find when they reconvened a year later that the very same animal and his progeny were NOW ADCA registered, and interestingly those folks who outmaneuvered the BOD had obvious financial motivations for doing so. Go here for a first hand account: www.thomasdexters.com/index.asp?ID=72 Not only was the breed purity intentionally perverted in the '90s, but it was done so in an EXTREMELY underhanded (and probably illegal) way.
If none of this bothers you, then go ahead and breed from those blood lines, and PLEASE try to keep them looking as "Dexter" as possible, because unfortunately these 1990's steps cannot be undone, only remediated.
I have discussed breeding goals with MANY MANY Dexter breeders over the years, and I have heard statements like "Milking traits aren't useful..." or "Beef traits aren't useful..." or "Coat color traits aren't useful..." or "A2 milk traits aren't useful..." "... too my breeding goals." I have never once argued those statements because they are made by individuals about their own goals.
Unless you would like to amend this statement: "The old historical pedigrees are INCREDIBLY interesting and I'm thankful to have access to them online.... but they aren't useful in making today's breeding selection decisions," by inserting "to me" after the word "useful," I must disagree to an extent I am incapable of describing in writing.
What makes you think that you have the right to dictate what other's breeding criteria should be?
For my part (as well as a few others), we prefer to maintain not only the Dexter Phenotype, but ALSO the Dexter Genotype, so I totally disagree that historical pedigrees "aren't useful in making today's breeding selection decisions." For me, and others they are a VERY significant part of our breeding decisions.
For me, it is important that old genetics are preserved for a very long list of reasons (many of which you can learn more about on websites such as these (to exhibit just a few):
If you choose not to preserve old genetics, fine. Just stop trying to convince those of us that ARE preserving them that we are wrong, and stop obstructing our efforts at every turn.
PLEASE find something CONSTRUCTIVE to do with your Dexter interests rather than continually trying to subvert ours.
1. I spend my life "preserving" heritage breeds of livestock and heritage methods of raising them. So I know all about the importance of saving our heritage genetics. Our farm was instrumental in rescuing American Guinea Hogs from the brink of extinction. We "preserve" Dexters by understanding their important useful heritage traits and selecting for those important heritage traits generation after generation. One of dexters' MOST important traits is friendliness and relative safety (compared to the larger and less friendly breeds). Over the past century or two, MANY folks have removed horns from dexters to improve safety, and natural hornlessness is the ONLY humane way to do that. Horns are great, but if you're going to remove horns, then natural hornlessness is the way to go. 2. Ancient old historical pedigrees are historically interesting, but they aren't useful in making today's breeding selection decisions ACCORDING TO GENETICS EXPERTS. Certainly a 3 or 4 or 5 generation pedigree can be useful, if you know something about the traits and genes of those immediate ancestors, but much beyond that, is mostly useless for practical purposes. That's especially true since ALL pedigrees contain some errors due to lack of historical parentage verification. 3. What makes Dexters, DEXTERS is certain alleles in certain combinations. You can't maintain allele combinations via pedigree. Each generation, a random 50% of an ancestor's genes are lost and a random 50% are kept, and occasional mutations occur and this messes up genotype frequencies and combinations. There are only two ways to attempt to maintain a genotype, either by phenotype selection each generation (phenotype won't guarantee genotype, but it helps), or by DNA testing selection each generation). 4. You can't "preserve" old lines, unless you exactly replicate EVERYTHING that the originator of those old lines was doing, including his/her local environment, feeds, breeding selection decisions, etc... and that's nearly impossible.... but you CAN create your own new lines based on heritage traits that are important to you. Exactly WHAT ARE THOSE TRAITS? 5. Radical "preservationists" are being hypocritical when they whine about hornlessness, but they continue to support dehorning. 6. Radical "preservationists" are being hypocritical when they whine about modern UK imports, but they have TONS of modern UK imports with outcrossing on their own "Traditional" pedigrees via animals like Parndon Bullfinch (a MODERN UK IMPORT WITH OUTCROSSING).... Even many "Legacy" animals have some modern English imports from the decade in which I was born (I consider that to be modern), and those modern English imports have outcrossing. 7. Hypocritical Radical "preservationists" like to claim that their pedigrees are perfect, but those supposed "perfect" pedigrees have more holes than swiss cheese. Hypocritical Radical "preservationists" like to point out holes in other folk's pedigrees, while sweeping their own pedigree holes under the rug. Bottom Line: If you are concerned that we are losing important useful traits, MAKE AN EXACT LIST OF THOSE TRAITS and select for them. I'll wait here for that EXACT List of important useful traits you want to preserve. |
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Post by lilbitty on Jul 24, 2015 22:17:01 GMT
Kirk, thank you for your continued input regarding Dexter preservation efforts.
Please know and understand:
WE GET IT!
You don’t need to continue to tell us all that there are holes in the pedigrees of nearly every Dexter afoot (most of which occurred when the English were more concerned about the potential need to learn German than they were the need to keep up with cow registrations).
WE GET IT!
You don’t need to continue to propose that these holes can mean only one thing in your opinion (that those owners were trying to cover up their cross-breeding efforts). A curious idea since in general, in the UK of that era there was a general acceptance of the practice (as exemplified by the Appendix and Experimental registries.)
WE GET IT!
You don’t need to continue to then conclude for all of us that those animals with documented crossbreeding are just as “Dexter” as those without in your opinion.
WE GET IT!
You don’t need to continue to pretend that Saltaire Platinum and all of his polled descendants look just like every other Dexter. (They DON’T HAVE HORNS… DEXTERS ARE A HORNED BREED!!!!)
We GET IT!
In short, you don’t need to continually demonstrate that you do not support Legacy Dexter or Traditional Dexter breeding efforts in any way shape or form.
WE GET IT!
Now why don’t you start using ALL of the time and energy you devote to harassing our productive efforts for something productive of your own? Is trying to get all of us to realize that you are an opinionated and obstinate ass the highest calling you have? If so, you can stop now:
WE GET IT!
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