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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 29, 2015 21:21:26 GMT
Genebo, I just read your summary of the ancestry of Mrs. Fermoy. You suggest that the breeding of Adam One to Legacy Eve and/ or Dara Inion could produce American Red.
Are these three available to each other, nowadays? I can't keep track of who you have at Paradise Farms, but pretty sure you still have Eve, who's got the others? Do you folks have an arrangement for the breeding program, as in live cover or will it be an AI thing?
The logistics of this are fascinating.
Bill
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Post by cascade on Jun 30, 2015 6:01:25 GMT
Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy's Pedigree has more holes in it than swiss cheese. legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=A®no=4270Who is Thornwood Peggy?  what breeds are her parents? How about Dark Moonbeam? Angus? Holstein? All Dexters including so-called "legacy" and "traditional" dexters have tons of gaps in their pedigrees denoting outcrossing/upgrading. The good news is that what makes them dexters, is ongoing selection for dexer traits, generation after generation. So don't please fret about all those non-dexters in Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy's pedigree. Just keep selecting for pure Dexter traits. |
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Post by jamshundred on Jun 30, 2015 12:22:47 GMT
I don't see any holes.  You got them blinders on again? |
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Post by cascade on Jun 30, 2015 14:08:50 GMT
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Post by jamshundred on Jun 30, 2015 14:25:45 GMT
These are foundation bloodlines in the US. Are you suggesting that the legendary Professor Plumb who organized the animals in America into a herd book that was the precursor to ADCA was in some way corrupt or less than diligent with his efforts? Or the owners of these early lines, Guggenheim, and Satterley, ( daughter of the banker J.P. Morgan) were dishonorable? These folks were the wealthy elite in America. They had imported the most unique and special cattle in the world. They just didn't have a registry for them until Professor Plumb began one. No different than the beginnings in Ireland, or England. Waayyyy back nearly a century ago. Bit different than a multiple outcrossed grade animal born 20 years ago.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Jun 30, 2015 19:39:46 GMT
There would have been no need for the old-timers to be dishonest. Smart folks know that Dexters started from tons of non-dexter sources. Most new breeds are formed by starting with all sorts of other breeds. ALL Dexters have tons of other breeds in their fairly recent ancestry. What makes them purebred dexters today, is a process of selection for standard dexter traits, generation after generation. Pure-breeding is an ONGOING PROCESS. This great grandparent of Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy from 1944 has tons of non-dexters on the pedigree... this is 1944 (not hundreds of years ago). legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=A®no=641If you want, we can go slap the word "Foundation" on Saltaire Platinum's great great great grandparents, as you have done with all the holes in your "legacy" and "traditional" pedigrees. But all this fussing about purity is silly.....Dr. Sponeneberg at the ADCA AGM said " if you are arguing over 3% impurity in the breed; You need to find a new hobby!" That sure got a lot of applause. |
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Post by lonecowhand on Jun 30, 2015 20:48:52 GMT
Hogwash. Were you there at the AGM?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 30, 2015 21:55:39 GMT
Given the members who were in attendance, and the type of Dexters they own and breed. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of applause.
If I showed up with a fully registered and genotyped 50% Angus/Dexter polled bull or cow (or Milking Shorthorn if you prefer) I'd probably be applauding too, but secretly thinking that the good Dr. Sponenburg was probably a bit too optimistic about the lack of additional crossbreeding other than Platinum into the polled Dexter population during the past 20 years,whether intentional or purposeful.
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Post by cascade on Jun 30, 2015 22:29:44 GMT
FRIENDLY, Compact, Red, Homozygous Polled, A2/A2, dexter bulls with very milky genetics, and extensive family-tree DNA profiling, have been around for a long time (at relatively cheap prices)... It would be silly to let an Angus get into the mix.
If you want a purebred, homozygous polled, FRIENDLY dexter bull, let me know... I'll be happy to DNA test him for breed purity for you.
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 1, 2015 1:45:49 GMT
I don't believe it. I don't believe it was said in the context the hearsay is being reported. Dr. Phil Sponenberg knows very well there is no grade bull in America that is 97%. That is the daydream of the polled breeders.
Gosh. They are so desperate. . . grasping at straws to legitimize a grade animal that can be bought on any given day at any sale barn in any color.
They need to get back to the foundations of the breed and then WE will applaud too.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Jul 1, 2015 16:45:30 GMT
Saltaire Platinum was a near perfect dexter specimen, selected for his near perfect dexter traits, including being 42" at age 3 and having VERY milky genetics.
Due to likely calf-swap incident, One of his great great great grandparents was likely an excellent registered, polled Dairy Milking Shorthorn bull, Swinsongrange Challenger (Herd Book Number 0222549).
An animal has 32 great great great grandparents.
31 of Saltaire Platinum's 32 great great great grandparents were purebred Dexters.
On paper, That would make Saltaire Platinum 31/32 pure dexter... or 97% pure (even though he is 100% purebred via proper selection)
If you disagree with this percentage, then please lay out the exact facts and exact calculation of a percentage that you believe it to be.
PS. if it will make you feel better, we could just slap the word "Foundation" on that hole in his pedigree in the legacy system, since that's what has been done for many many many other "legacy" and "traditional" animals.
PPS. We don't want to get back to the foundations of the breed, because the foundations weren't pure and foundations contained MANY non-dexters... foundations for breeds can take a good number of generations to purify into a true breed. Breeding to a pure STANDARD over many generations, is the ONLY way to purify and preserve a breed.
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 2, 2015 19:42:31 GMT
LOL! Near perfect speciman. He doesn't even breed true. According to you he is supposed to be a fine example of a "Dexter" bull, yet the majority of his descendents I see in photos look like BEEF breeds to me. or. . ABD ( anything but Dexters). He was such a "perfect" speciman that he has ONE adult photo that anyone has ever seen, and since few of his offspring look like that. . . . .how do we know the picture isn't a fake too? And. ... what happened to the "novel mutation" Kirk? For TEN years I've been trying to tell people it was a big deceit, and . ... . suddenly. . .. . no one is saying it anymore. It is as if no one pretemded and propogated that lie for two decades. The SAME excuse they could have used TEN years ago, is now the new mantra. The only given in the deck of SP cards is that there is not one, . . . .but four. .. non-Dexters tucked away in his wood pile. He is such a near "perfect" speciman that on any given day, in any given color, you can find one just like him or better, in any sale barn in America.
The breeders who are breeding polled, unless isolated away from any contact with other breeders, now know that the polled is an outcrossed trait. They are chosing, knowingly, to be party to the destruction of a unique and wonderful little rare heritage breed of horned cattle. You should think about this, for common sense is all that was needed, but with the lack of that .science is proving the deceit and ignorance that has wiped out this extraordinary breed, and those of you who participated in the pretence, and made excuses for, well, you will not be lauded in the annals of agricultural history for your compliance and duplicity in changing something exceptional into something commonplace, rather, in my opinion you will will be stained with the brush of deceit and lack of foresight. History will record the truth. Make no mistake about that.
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 2, 2015 19:48:30 GMT
PS. Why do you parse the truth? There are NOT 31 of 32 pure ancestors. He has FOUR recorded introgressions which take away not one animal, but more. . . . . .and you want to add another one, and ADCA wants to add three more for a total of EIGHT. So, could you be a little more consistent with your skewing? You have no credibility with the preservationists, and I don't see how the conflicting stories you tell could leave you with any credibility with the non-preservationists. What you have . . . . . is a couple folks who feed you lines and info and a peanut gallery hi-fiveing your efforts ane urging you onward. But, they. like you, know the truth now. You are are still cheering the big lie. How desperately sad that is.
Judy
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jul 3, 2015 1:44:52 GMT
LOL! Near perfect speciman. He doesn't even breed true. According to you he is supposed to be a fine example of a "Dexter" bull, yet the majority of his descendents I see in photos look like BEEF breeds to me. or. . ABD ( anything but Dexters). He was such a "perfect" speciman that he has ONE adult photo that anyone has ever seen, and since few of his offspring look like that. . . . .how do we know the picture isn't a fake too? And. ... what happened to the "novel mutation" Kirk? For TEN years I've been trying to tell people it was a big deceit, and . ... . suddenly. . .. . no one is saying it anymore. It is as if no one pretemded and propogated that lie for two decades. The SAME excuse they could have used TEN years ago, is now the new mantra. The only given in the deck of SP cards is that there is not one, . . . .but four. .. non-Dexters tucked away in his wood pile. He is such a near "perfect" speciman that on any given day, in any given color, you can find one just like him or better, in any sale barn in America. The breeders who are breeding polled, unless isolated away from any contact with other breeders, now know that the polled is an outcrossed trait. They are chosing, knowingly, to be party to the destruction of a unique and wonderful little rare heritage breed of horned cattle. You should think about this, for common sense is all that was needed, but with the lack of that .science is proving the deceit and ignorance that has wiped out this extraordinary breed, and those of you who participated in the pretence, and made excuses for, well, you will not be lauded in the annals of agricultural history for your compliance and duplicity in changing something exceptional into something commonplace, rather, in my opinion you will will be stained with the brush of deceit and lack of foresight. History will record the truth. Make no mistake about that. Judy Ouch! I have to agree with Judy. Platinum either doesn't breed true (according to that ONE photo), or there has been a whole lot of other stuff you don't know about mixed in during subsequent years. Which one is it? |
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Post by cascade on Jul 3, 2015 2:37:04 GMT
Parndon Bullfinch (A MODERN UK Import) has scores of non-dexters on his pedigree and he is on EVERY "Traditional" Dexter pedigree Here's his grandsire legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O®no=EM1633He's not even 50% dexter and he's on ALL "Traditional" pedigrees. Hypocrites love to find old outcrossing on other people's pedigrees, but sweep their own outcrossing under the rug. Here's a Photo of a Direct Saltaire Platinum Daughter (looks 100% pure dexter)  Here's a direct son of Saltaire Platinum (looks 100% Dexter)  Here's another direct son of Saltaire Platinum (looks 100% Dexter)  |
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Post by lilbitty on Jul 24, 2015 22:19:27 GMT
Kirk, thank you for your continued input regarding Dexter preservation efforts.
Please know and understand:
WE GET IT!
You don’t need to continue to tell us all that there are holes in the pedigrees of nearly every Dexter afoot (most of which occurred when the English were more concerned about the potential need to learn German than they were the need to keep up with cow registrations).
WE GET IT!
You don’t need to continue to propose that these holes can mean only one thing in your opinion (that those owners were trying to cover up their cross-breeding efforts). A curious idea since in general, in the UK of that era there was a general acceptance of the practice (as exemplified by the Appendix and Experimental registries.)
WE GET IT!
You don’t need to continue to then conclude for all of us that those animals with documented crossbreeding are just as “Dexter” as those without in your opinion.
WE GET IT!
You don’t need to continue to pretend that Saltaire Platinum and all of his polled descendants look just like every other Dexter. (They DON’T HAVE HORNS… DEXTERS ARE A HORNED BREED!!!!)
We GET IT!
In short, you don’t need to continually demonstrate that you do not support Legacy Dexter or Traditional Dexter breeding efforts in any way shape or form.
WE GET IT!
Now why don’t you start using ALL of the time and energy you devote to harassing our productive efforts for something productive of your own? Is trying to get all of us to realize that you are an opinionated and obstinate ass the highest calling you have? If so, you can stop now:
WE GET IT!
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Post by cascade on Jul 28, 2015 5:09:00 GMT
You don’t need to continue to pretend that Saltaire Platinum and all of his polled descendants look just like every other Dexter. (They DON’T HAVE HORNS… DEXTERS ARE A HORNED BREED!!!!) Are you suggesting that ALL Dehorned Dexters be removed from the registries because they aren't Dexters in your opinion because they lack horns? Are you suggesting a ban on dehorning Dexters? EVERY official Dexter breed organization on the planet says that Dexters are both a horned and hornless breed and they accept BOTH equally. Here's a link to the terrific LEGACY TRADITIONAL HORNLESS Cow "Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy" from the Legacy Database.... I think she's terrific. Most all of the cows on my farm descend from her and look a lot like her.  |
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Post by lonecowhand on Jul 28, 2015 15:31:31 GMT
On Planet Kirk.
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Post by lonecowhand on Sept 15, 2015 21:00:51 GMT
Any News on the Traditional Red front? Karrie of wvdexters?
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Post by wvdexters on Sept 17, 2015 1:32:17 GMT
Hi Bill, Things are really good here. It's been a weird season weather-wise, but the Dexters are handling it fine.
Macklynn is growing into a really nice little bull, and has his ladies bred for late Feb/Mar calves. So we're expecting to add 3 more names to the project soon. If we are very lucky - possibly 2 of them REDS!!
Triu Inion and Vera J of Paradise (Gene's heifers) are beautiful; and should produce some really cute calves. I can't wait, it is very exciting.
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Post by lonecowhand on Sept 24, 2015 19:43:37 GMT
Great, Karrie! So Macklynn has another heifer or cow besides Gene's to dote on? Who's the other?
We'll all be waiting anxiously for March, thats a long time to hold your breath in anticipation!
Any ideas on the A1 -A2 possibilities?
Bill
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what breeds are her parents?
You got them blinders on again?