Alice of Old Orchard Less Pure than Saltaire Platinum

[cascade]

Yikes!!!! have you seen Alice of Old Orchard's pedigree? It has more holes than swiss cheese.



Here's her 5 generation pedigree:



legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=A&regno=4751


She's linebred to Parndon Bullfinch and Parndon Charlie Pudding.



They are modern UK Dexters with tons of outcrossing on their 5 generation pedigrees. They are far less pure than the superstar bull, Saltaire Platinum.



Here's Parndon Charlie Pudding's pedigree... Notice his grandmother "Limbury Fanny" isn't even 50% dexter.



legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EM1928





Here's Limbury Fanny's pedigree, It looks like she's only 25% dexter and 75% something else



legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EF6088





The good news for everyone is that ALL dexters, including so-called "Traditional" and "Legacy" dexters have holes in their pedigrees representing tons of non-dexters. There is no such thing as absolute purity in Dexters. They ALL have tons of other breeds in their backgrounds and tons of holes on their pedigrees. What keeps them looking and behaving as dexters, is ongoing selection for dexter traits, so focus on selecting good dexter traits and stop worrying about old holes on pedigrees, since ALL dexters have holes on their old pedigrees.



PS. I find it interesting that the irrational purists like to point out holes in other people's pedigrees, while hiding the holes in their own pedigrees.



PPS. If you'd like me to point out the holes on more "Traditional" or "Legacy" pedigrees, just let me know.... It's TONS of fun and I thank Judy for making all these interesting records available in her database, so everyone can find the holes in so-called "traditional" pedigrees.

[jamshundred]

Alice od Old Orchard belonged to me.  But I suppose you knew that, right?  She was murdered because I was naive and un-informed by a leadership that charged themselves with caretaking a breed yet made no effort to educate themselves.  Blind led the blind.  A dreadful mistake on my part of which I have never forgiven myself. 

i repeat Kirk that I am dreadfully sorry that you and the herd of Dexters you adore have been caught in the deceit perpetrated on the US herd.  It is even more egregious that the public promise to destroy the US herd is now nearly fulfilled.  You may continue to try and seek revenge against those not party to the lies and deceit, but you cannot change the fact that Saltaire Platinum is a GRADE animal whose non-dexter ancestor is genetically engineering a small and rare breed of unique horned heritage cattle into extinction.  It is a lose-lose.  Both you and the breed are stuck with having to excuse lies and deceit.  Perhaps evil as well.  Dexters are so special...and yet like mankind itself..the forces of evil appear to be winning.

You can count on me to try to derail the devil's progress.

judy

[cascade]

But all Dexters in America are graded-up Dexters....they ALL have holes in their pedigrees.

The good news is that Dr. Sponenberg says that grading up is an excellent way to preserve Dexters, so you can be relieved that we are ALL saving Dexters.

www.oocities.org/horsesnewmexcom/gradingup.htm

[Deleted]

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

Kirk looks like you missed the boat on that one

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

If, in fact, Dr. Sponenberg is such an advocate for uprgrading why has he spent so many years of his life working with preservation groups trying to preserve original bloodline animals?

Why was the presentation at the ADCA AGM centered around the preservation of the Legacy and traditional animals? 

When you permit yourself to be a pawn of those who deal in deceit.  .. it rubs off.  ( The flea thing again).  

Let's go back and start with the pre-school version.   ALL cattle breeds descend from the Auroch, and along the way man decided he had a better idea than the creator and he has been dickering with and screwing up most things since.   There have been a few stubborn hold-outs through time and a little breed of dwarf cattle survived the hardships of cattle life in the mouontain regions of SW Ireland., to thrive and build wondrous immune systems, survive on the barest of forage, have their calves with ease and protect them from the elements and predators, and charm humans with their extraordinary intelligence and personality. They were so unique in size and phenotype they caught the eye of men with jingle in their pockets and the rest of the story unfolds, sadly, across the decades of men using these special cows to breed every other existing breed imaginable to try to instill in other breeds the unique qualities of the Dexter 

Like the labrador dogs whose lifeline has been cut almost in half by man, or bulldogs who can no longer birth their young, or Persian cats and crosses who cannot breath with ease because their faces are so smooshed to achieve a look that was "different" or the Holstein cow who can barely drag around the huge udder between her legs and lives usually four or five years,  or other species now extinct.   . .man, in his arrogance keeps failing to improve on the original.   Dexters though, well there was a little dwarf breed that has been hard for man to conquer.  Until now.  Now we begin to hear of farms where the vet visits frequently, cows who have to have their cows pulled, dead calves littering the pastures.    YOU may pretend all you wish that what is happening in Dexters in an improvement, but there are those of us who know better and we mourn the continuting destruction of something inique and special.

That some of you are buying into the lie.  ..  ..  .when your hearts know it IS a lie. .. .  well, that should have a unique and special Karma of it's own. 

Judy

[cascade]

Jul 13, 2015 17:42:36 GMT jamshundred said:

Kirk,

If, in fact, Dr. Sponenberg is such an advocate for uprgrading why has he spent so many years of his life working with preservation groups trying to preserve original bloodline animals?

Why was the presentation at the ADCA AGM centered around the preservation of the Legacy and traditional animals? 

Preserving heritage breeds is very important work, but at the ADCA meeting, Dr. Sponenberg said that 97% pure on paper, is pure enough and he warned folks that if they are spending their lives fussing about the other 1 or 2 or 3% on paper, then they are wasting their time.  

You should consider that to be very good news, since 99% of all dexters including "Traditional" dexters have fairly recent grading-up via UK Bull Parndon Charlie Pudding and his grandmother Limbury Fan who looks to be only 25% dexter.

Sponenberg would NOT agree with your strict paper-only definition of "Traditional" and "Legacy" purity....  I don't even know if YOU have a clear objective definition of those paper terms because any definition I've seen, can be shot down with 3 minutes of pedigree searching (finding pedigree examples that run counter to the definition). 

Sponenberg's presentation was NOT about preserving perfect paper pedigrees, it was about preserving important valuable traditional traits, and grading-up is a valuable tool that can be used to do exactly that in some cases.  Blank entries and old historical grading-up is on EVERY old Dexter pedigree and that is NOT a problem, as long as breeders continue to select and cull against a detailed breed description and select for good general cattle conformation. 

Preservation is all about preserving IMPORTANT TRAITS, in a breed that can breed true and reproduce itself consistently.   In the hands of a skilled breeder, within 4-5 generations after an out-cross, one can easily have excellent pure-breeding animals that can breed true to the breed standard.  I'm NOT suggesting that we need to open the door to outcrossing, I'm saying that the many cases of historical outcrossing (including in "traditional" and "legacy" dexters), has helped form the Dexter breed.

Since the irrational paper purists have so many glaring holes in their own pedigrees, it seems like they should be happy to agree with Dr. Sponenberg that the final 3% on paper is meaningless as long as we are selecting animals according to a detailed breed standard.

What traditional traits are you afraid of losing?   We have more genetically horned dexters today than we've ever had in the past.  

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

Dr Sponenberg laments that comment.  I have it in writing.  He feels he meant it one way and the context was taken another.   I am sure of it.   I happen to know the origins of the 97% comment.

Kirk, I am diligent as possible regarding truth and actuality.  If I err, it is an absolute honest mistake, or a lack of resources/ knowledge.   At all times I try to be intellectually as well as factually honest.


For weeks you have been plastering this board with animals with bloodlines in the preservation effort, animals who all descend from missing paperwork which dates from the late 30s or early 40's ( And guess where you are getting your ammunition - from the ONLY place where it is availabe - LEGACY).   That paperwork dates to  THREE-QUARTERS of a century ago when bombs were descending from the heavens onto the rural and the urban landscapes of England.  Paperwork on cows was not the immediate urgency at the time, and most of the males who managed the cattle were in uniform.    Legacy discovered this issue, has worked to try and  resolve it, has had no success to date, and all the animals with this Limbury ancestor in the pedigree are listed as TRADITIONAL      However, In England, which evolved into the "mother-country" of Dexters. . . . . . this same bloodline is permitted in their "Legacy" animals.    Their Original Population Project does . .  .. NOT.  .. . . . . . consider this an issue.  They consider these war times and earlier pedigrees all to be pure.

It would be easy to follow in those footsteps which would be followed anywhere England is the registering authority.   It would add quite a few animals to the Legacy designation.  All of my herd for instance.   However, there is a level of pedigrees in the US that DOES go immediately back to foundation animals in the US, England, and/or Ireland, and they deserve the recognition of time.

I am sorry you are willing to try and discredit an attempt to preserve the earliest bloodlines in order to buffer the standing of an imported bull that is NOT purebred, who WILL NOT qualify for registration under any existing rules then or now, because of his sex,  and is changing the phenotype, and I believe it will eventually be shown the genotype of the original Dexter.   You can not with any creditbility tell me you cannot see the changes with your eye.  And if you are paying any attention at all, you will have many comments regarding phenotype, forage conversion, size of calves, ease of calving, pulled calves, dead calves.   

*I* am not responsbile for this dreadful LIE but I have certainly taken the heat for it. . . . . . for years. . ..  .. . imagine that.   That is the state of our society today.   Excuses are made for LIARS, and those who uncover the lies are SCORNED by the supporters of the LIE.    In which generation did the requirement for personal conduct based in honor leave us?  

Judy

[cascade]

Let's look at Sponenberg's direct quotes from a published article:

"Grading up is an interesting and useful process for animal breeders. It is often seen as a threat to purebred stock, when in fact it is one sure way to ensure breed survivability over long centuries of purebred breeding"


"At higher levels of grade, which for my thinking certainly includes 31/32 or anything higher, the influence of outside genetic material is minimal, and the animals are performing and breeding like most purebreds. These upgraded animals may have a slight advantage in overall vigor, and in fact do offer breeds enough of a breath of fresh air (or fresh genetics) that can be a great boon to some very rare breeds, while at the same time posing minimal threat that any of the genetic uniqueness of the breed will be lost. This hearkens back to the principle that breeds are valuable because they are consistent and predictable. Any breeding practice that does not threaten the consistency and predictability of a breed does not threaten its status as a breed, and that certainly includes upgrading."

That means that he's saying 96.8% purity (31/32) is usually as good or even better than 100% purity (if breeders do a good job on selection for consistent breed traits through the process).

www.oocities.org/horsesnewmexcom/gradingup.htm


The war story about Limbury Fanny is a very cool historical snippet (and sincere thanks for sharing it), but none the less, there is still a big gaping hole in her pedigree (her mother is missing).  There are all sorts of interesting reasons for holes in animal's pedigrees, but it doesn't take the hole away and I'm not going to let pedigree purists point out holes in other pedigrees while sweeping their own pedigree holes under a rug with emotion-filled war stories to make excuses. 

Limbury Fanny's son, Round Chimney's Roly Poly (on 99% of "traditional" pedigrees), appears to have even more problems in addition to his likely non-dexter mother.   His Great Grandmother on his sire's side is named "Crocus" and seems to be a non-dexter.   Roly Poly (a 1950's bull) has more holes on his  pedigree than swiss cheese. 

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EM1633

PS.  Remember that I'm agreeing with Sponenberg that "97% purity" is often as good or better than "100% purity" on paper.   Selection for dexter traits over 4-5 generations can result in VERY pure dexters.  So I'm agreeing with Sponenberg that these old holes in pedigrees are NOT important, and what IS important, is selecting for consistent breed traits, generation after generation. 

PPS. Again, SINCERE thanks for all the hard work of putting these interesting old pedigrees online and sharing them with the world.

[lilbitty]

Kirk, thank you for your continued input regarding Dexter preservation efforts.
Please know and understand:

WE GET IT!

You don’t need to continue to tell us all that there are holes in the pedigrees of nearly every Dexter afoot (most of which occurred when the English were more concerned about the potential need to learn German than they were the need to keep up with cow registrations).

WE GET IT!

You don’t need to continue to propose that these holes can mean only one thing in your opinion (that those owners were trying to cover up their cross-breeding efforts). A curious idea since in general, in the UK of that era there was a general acceptance of the practice (as exemplified by the Appendix and Experimental registries.)

WE GET IT!

You don’t need to continue to then conclude for all of us that those animals with documented crossbreeding are just as “Dexter” as those without in your opinion.

WE GET IT!

You don’t need to continue to pretend that Saltaire Platinum and all of his polled descendants look just like every other Dexter. (They DON’T HAVE HORNS… DEXTERS ARE A HORNED BREED!!!!)

We GET IT!

In short, you don’t need to continually demonstrate that you do not support Legacy Dexter or Traditional Dexter breeding efforts in any way shape or form.

WE GET IT!

Now why don’t you start using ALL of the time and energy you devote to harassing our productive efforts for something productive of your own? Is trying to get all of us to realize that you are an opinionated and obstinate ass the highest calling you have? If so, you can stop now:

WE GET IT!