AI Bull "Lir" has Modern UK Imports with Upgrading

[cascade]

The AI Listing on the ADCA Website advertises that this bull has "No Upgrading or Outcrossing".... but that's NOT true 

- - - - - - -copied and pasted July 16, 11:45 am - - - - - - -
LP Lir
ADCA #: 033929
Genotype: On file at UC Davis
41” at hip at 2 years
PHA free, condro free
Red carries dun (E+/E+, B/b)
A1/A2

Lir is one of a VERY few Traditional red animals (No Upgrading or Outcrossing.). He is EXTREMELY gentle, friendly and curious. Very high fertility. Tested negative for all major diseases.

$75/Straw
- - - - - - - - - - 
www.dextercattle.org/adca/adca_ai_bulls.html


This fine bull descends from a Modern UK Import from 1966 (Parndon Bullfinch) that has tons of unknown ancestry, outcrossing/upgrading

Here's "Lir's" pedigree,  Notice Mar nell's Black Magic on the upper right hand side

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?sec=1&aid=1652


Here is Mar Nell's Black Magic's Pedigree

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=A&regno=1804

Notice Parndon Charlie Pudding, Round Chimneys Roly Poly, and Limbury Fanny, they are all "grade" dexters with questionable unknown ancestry 


Here is Round Chimney Roly Poly's pedigree (more holes than swiss cheese)

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EM1633


Further, "Lir" is linebred on those "grade" dexters which means he has doubled up on his "grade" ancestry. 


"Lir" may be a fine bull, but he has holes in his pedigree just like the excellent Lucifer of Knotting and Saltaire Platinum and most all other bulls do.

The good news is that expert heritage breed geneticists tell us that graded-up dexters can be just as good or even better than theoretically "pure" dexters.


www.oocities.org/horsesnewmexcom/gradingup.htm

[jamshundred]

I think you should direct your comments to the UK.   They consider this bloodline pure, and animals with Sylvan Ebony, His sire Round Chimneys Roly poly and the connecting Limbury line to be foundation bloodlines.   Animals with these ancestors are accepted in the UK preservation effort OPP. (Original Population project).  

How long before you realize you are failing.   More and more folks are learning the truth thanks to the many more opportunities for them to learn about the polled fairy tail and seek Traditiomal bloodlines.   Even polled owners can see the difference that the polled descendents of SP have brought to the breed.  Newbies visiting the AGM have made comments about the animals on display and how they looked more like certain beef breeds than Dexters.  The biggest proof of the lie are the animals themselves! 

The mistake  was made at the beginning when opportunists permitted greed to color their thinking.  If polled was a desired trait they should have imported the bull, made an effort at honesty and called them by the new breed it was ( because,it was anything but Dexter with four, and maybe five, and all your commentary says you believe it is SIX outcrosses in the pedigree and perhaps SEVEN, (geeze what a mess), with a new breed name... something like Platinums or Salties.  Then you guys could Have  properly established your new breed of Platinums and that would have been that.  Actually, the new breed should be named Antoinettes cattle, because, like the unfortunate Queen, polled breeders want their cake and want to eat it too!  Your animals cannot stand on their own four feet- - apparently would be a dismal failure without trading on, and pretending to be the unique and special little breed of heritage horned cattle known as Dexters.

every negative comment you make is magnified at least SiX outcrossed times.  Maybe seven.  goodness, there aren't even that many different beans in the bean soup package at the grocery store.   Tough hill to hike trying to buffer that mess Kirk.  if it were me and I wanted to raise small polled cattle I would be looking for some real ones .....like Lowlines.  With the money that is being thrown around to get these non-dexter animals, owners could stock their fields with red polled Lowlines and trade on a name that means something in the meat world----Angus!  Pseudo polled Dexters are never going to gain the respect of real cattle men who laugh so hard they leak, so it is a lose-lose.  They aren't Dexters and they are not anything else..because the big lie blew it for all time.  

Judy

[jamshundred]

I had to smile at the Mar Nells Black Magic insinuation, that is the foundation of Sandi Thomas's herd prior to the addition of Lucifer. Every animal in her herd descends from one or the other. The Lucifer issues are tough enough, but you are piling on! Maybe you should give some thought to Lowlines.....I think you are are likely not winning friends or influencing the people power structure with the games you are playing. Every time your fingers touch the keys.....you are dissing or causing their herds to be dissed. Yikes!

Judy

[cascade]

The UK considers Parndon Bullfinch and Saltaire Platinum and Lucifer of Knotting to be purebred.... because they are purebred. Purebreeding is a process. Dr. Sponenberg tells us that 97% pure (with good selection) is as good or better than "100% pure" (100% purity is a myth in dexters). Most of us purebred Dexter breeders aren't radical "pedigree purists", but rather, we are practical purebred breeders. Old holes on our pedigrees are meaningless.

Selection for good Dexter traits is 100 times more important than worrying about ancient old pedigrees entries. Those old pedigree entries are VERY historically interesting, but are mostly meaningless because of the way that genetics work. Beyond 4-5 generations, old pedigrees don't have much practical application in breeding.

The bull in the subject of this thread certainly is a fine purebred dexter, but he has holes in his pedigree, just like Saltaire Platinum and Lucifer of Knotting have holes in their old pedigrees and just like ALL dexters have holes in their old pedigrees.

Hypocrites like to point out old holes in other people's pedigrees, but they sweep the holes in their own pedigrees under a rug.


PS. It's possible that Saltaire Platinum's holes in pedigrees are 100% purebred dexters (just not recorded). Do you have proof otherwise?

[lonecowhand]

Lack of Horns

[cascade]

The holes in SPs paper pedigree from many generations earlier have nothing to do with horns or lack of horns. If you disagree, then please give an EXACT mapping in his pedigree and explain in genetically sound terms.

Meanwhile, supposed "Traditional" Dexters have a big gaping hole on their pedigrees that completely spoils your own self-made myth of paper "purity".

[jamshundred]

Kirk,

Saltaire Platinum is an inexcusable and unacceptable fait accompli in the States.  Promise made - promise kept.  In England they were used to upgrading, but the American herd has never permitted it, and now almost the entire darn herd descends from a NON-PUREBRED bull.   How can you not see the injustice of that?   How can you turn such a blind eye to the horrendous changes both outside and now those on the inside which are beginning to appear in our breed?

There is no right side of the argument for you.  Deceit has placed you right smack dab in the middle of a horrendous injustice perpetrated on the most wonderful little breed of dwarf cattle ever developed by nature. 
It is incomprehensible to me that even one single person thinks there is no harm in continuing the changes and destruction to a breed once so special.  

Judy

[cascade]

Parndon Bullfinch is a Modern 1966 UK import with many blank spots on his pedigree via grandsire Round Chimneys Roly Poly. He is on 99% of American Pedigrees and is far LESS "pure" than Saltaire Platinum.


Meanwhile, here's a photo of a "American Legacy Horned Traditional" cow from 1991 (Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy)



Here's a typical red polled dexter  (sure seems like today's red polled breeders are simply copying the look and feel of one of the old legacy American Traditional Cows



What "Horrendous Changes"  do you see??  I don't see any.

[Blessings Farms]

I can only say two things,
1 You need a eye check up or
2 You are of your rocker
if you really feel those cattle look alike in all aspects.

[cascade]

If you don't want Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoys photo to be public, then have Judy remove it from her public registry.

Meanwhile, Ms. fermoy is a great looking cow and the model for red polled Dexters, right down to her lack of horns.

I'm happy that the late great Fred Chesterley saved her from oblivion and made her one of the key dams of red polled Traditional Dexters. Fred saved Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy by breeding her on the great Superstar bull, Saltaire Platinum.


legacydextercattleregistry.com/a_info.php?sec=1&aid=264

[lakeportfarms]

We could sat up a 'Go Fund Me" page to retain legal counsel to file a copyright infringement lawsuit...

[lilbitty]

Kirk, I have no idea if you were at the AGM or not. If so, I'm sorry I did not meet you in person, because it has been my experience that the ugliness that you and others exhibit here is hard to sustain when meeting face-to-face. (Which probably explains why most of those people DON'T bother to meet face-to-face.)

Regarding your insistence of the need for proof that SP's lack of horns is a sign of lack of Dexter purity: Dr. Sponenberg addressed this fact quite directly at the AGM, and did so quite decisively. The FACT that SP's polled gene is IDENTICAL to a polled gene found in other breeds is PROOF. The odds of this exact same mutation occurring in exactly the same way in two different animals is astronomically small (like a million to one or more.)

BUT WAIT he did NOT say it was "Impossible," so I guess you will take that as a "green light" to keep running ahead with the fantasy, and you will continue to try to discredit legitimate Dexter preservation efforts by pointing out that not every single animal has a completely documented pedigree going back to 1890 (or whatever date you choose). THAT is a HUGE difference from documented purposeful efforts to "improve" the breed by introducing another, or genetic evidence that proves the presence of non-Dexter ancestry.

HUGE DIFFERENCE!

[lilbitty]

Kirk, thank you for your continued input regarding Dexter preservation efforts.
Please know and understand:

WE GET IT!

You don’t need to continue to tell us all that there are holes in the pedigrees of nearly every Dexter afoot (most of which occurred when the English were more concerned about the potential need to learn German than they were the need to keep up with cow registrations).

WE GET IT!

You don’t need to continue to propose that these holes can mean only one thing in your opinion (that those owners were trying to cover up their cross-breeding efforts). A curious idea since in general, in the UK of that era there was a general acceptance of the practice (as exemplified by the Appendix and Experimental registries.)

WE GET IT!

You don’t need to continue to then conclude for all of us that those animals with documented crossbreeding are just as “Dexter” as those without in your opinion.

WE GET IT!

You don’t need to continue to pretend that Saltaire Platinum and all of his polled descendants look just like every other Dexter. (They DON’T HAVE HORNS… DEXTERS ARE A HORNED BREED!!!!)

We GET IT!

In short, you don’t need to continually demonstrate that you do not support Legacy Dexter or Traditional Dexter breeding efforts in any way shape or form.

WE GET IT!

Now why don’t you start using ALL of the time and energy you devote to harassing our productive efforts for something productive of your own? Is trying to get all of us to realize that you are an opinionated and obstinate ass the highest calling you have? If so, you can stop now:

WE GET IT!

[cascade]

So you agree that the AI Bull LP LIR has Documented HOLES on his pedigree from the MODERN 1966 UK Import Bull, Parndon Bullfinch and his Grandsire Roly Poly who doesn't even appear to be 50% Dexter   -   He has 18 blank spots (out of 32 ancestors) on the last generation of this pedigree.   He's a LOT less pure than Saltaire Platinum according to the pedigrees.

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=O&regno=EM1633