Cornahir Outlaw new info

[jamshundred]

A few years ago Cornahir Outlaw was withheld from,the preservation list of AI Bulls because it was reported that there was upgrading in his modern ancestry.  Those records were not found and other  information that there was no upgrading was unfortunately accepted as truth.

The Records of the appendix upgrade have been locatedmthough the upgrade falls within the years that the UK accepts within the OPP preservation effort. Cornahir Outlaw is not on the Legacy list of semen recommended for preservation efforts with Legacy status.  Traditional status is temporarily on hold while the pedigree is being completed

Judy

[jamshundred]

I am hearing there is renewed discussion in England on the bull Shadwell Robert based on scientific findings, and those in the US planning to purchase or use this semen might wish to investigate further.

[jamshundred]

In the book "Symposium" published by the Dexter Cattle Society, there is information given that semen of Shadwell Robert has been laboratory tested and evaluated and he is  declared to be a crossbred Dexter.  

[cascade]

Every old Dexter in the past started out as non-dexters. Pure-Breeding is a process that purifies a breed over the generations.

Every pedigree has lots of non-dexters in the past...

Today's descendents all test as purebred Dexters.

[jamshundred]

I am so sorry to be the one who has to tell you this because you should already know it.

EVERY animal of EVERY breed began with unknown heritage.   How come you try to make it appear it is only Dexters?  Does that more fit your agenda of trying to legitimize the non-legitimate?   

[cascade]

Yes, every Dexter has non-Dexters in their past, same as all breeds.

The purebreeding process consists of selecting for key breed traits, generation after generation, until today's animals breed true for their breed defining traits.

So if we find some old distant holes in old pedigrees, those old holes are meaningless, since all Dexters have old holes in their pedigrees.

What's important is whether the animals we have today, are purebred for their key traits. If they aren't, it's easily fixed via a few generations of appropriate selection.

[lonecowhand]

"Holes" are different from Deliberate Outcrossing to an animal known to be a different breed, with the intent to modify the breed.

"Holes" may or may not have been erroneous matings. One assumes that if people appreciated the attributes of their Dexter herd, they would be careful to avoid out of breed matings. The holes you point out mostly coincide with folks being preoccupied with minutia , like avoiding bombs while underground.

The nonsense you keep spouting tells us that you can breed a Dexter from , say, a pair of Angus. Or an Angus and a Jersey.

Just Mix, select for those Key Traits, and a few generations of appropriate selection. Voila! Dexters.

[cascade]

That's exactly how Dexter's started as a breed. In the late 1800's and early 1900's they continued to let any cattle of any breed into the new Dexter registry, as long as those animals had key Dexter features (shorter legs, thick beefy build, under 900 pounds). In fact, you could enter a short Angus or other breed into a Dexter show and if it got a ribbon, it was allowed into the registry.

Even when they imported "Dexters" into America in the early 1900's, they just loaded any short cattle of any breed onto ships and called them "Dexters".. that's why you can't fully trace American Dexters back to Dexter Herdbook #1 in Dublin.

The point of all this messy history is that the idea of Dexter absolute purity is a myth.

What makes Dexter's "Purebred Dexter" is several generations of selective breeding, selecting for Dexter traits such that the resulting Dexters, consistently throw calves with Dexter traits.

Since there is no such thing as an absolutely pure Dexter, Traditionalists should be happy to hear that the old holes in pedigrees are not a problem, as long as they continue to select for traditional traits.

[lonecowhand]

You missed the point. You are welcome to believe any Myths you can make up. You're not finding any takers here.

One has to wonder what, other than the selling of your herd, you waste your time and energy on such an(apparently) unremarkable breed for? You needn't answer.

Yes, some Dexters are mutts as you well know! The more muttly, the less of those cherished Dexter Attributes are passed on to the next generation. Perhaps that's why you are not so attached to the traditional breed as most here?

You persist in trying to impugn the pedigree of all Dexters, and your unique narrative on timeline keeps getting more recent with each passing post. Soon, you'll say Dexters will have been made a breed in 1994.

I prefer the Myth which includes dwarf, black tipped white horned Corriente type cattle swimming to shore from a Spanish shipwreck. If I'm going to believe myths , this one's more ancient and romantic!

[cascade]

Dexter's have a mishmash of breeds in their backgrounds, including Spanish breeds and African breeds, because Ireland was visited by so many ships from those places, and most ships carried livestock.

With the Kerry breed, the old timers made an attempt to select for old pure Kerry stock in forming the registry. But with Dexters, they accepted anything and everything with short beefy builds.

What makes Dexters special, is that they are perfect for non-cattle people. Friendly, compact Dexters can be easily and safely kept by novices with no experience, little equipment, no shelter other than trees, and little effort. Dexter's can thrive without modern vet care and without modern supplements. Due to their compact size, Dexters can be easily processed at home, for beef, with minimal tools. Dexter's CAN be milked, but don't NEED to be milked.

The only way to preserve those ideal features is to raise Dexters in such a way that you continue to select for those features, generation after generation.

All my animals are selected for those features.

When I see a 4 generation pedigree of my Dexter's, I pretty much know every animal on the pedigree, and that information is useful, but information beyond that, isn't all that useful (but it's historically interesting).

[lonecowhand]

More conjecture.

The "Mishmash of Breeds" had stayed pretty stable historically for a century or two, until Some Fred decided that Dexters did not need horns, and surreptitiously bred them to a polled animal, proclaimed it a Miracle, and continuously sold the semen to folks who did not care that Dexters were a Horned Breed.

The only way to preserve those unique ideal features is to prevent outcrossing from other breeds who don't share those attributes.

Your Four Generation theory has been proven incorrect, but you persist...

[cascade]

Actually, Marcia of the Old Orchard herd was among the many folks who decided Dexter's didn't need horns long before Fred came along.

Most Dexters. were being dehorned long before the polled gene became popular.

Fred didn't do anything "surreptitious". Fred openly imported a DNA proven pure polled Dexter Bull from the UK. Fred did this to save Dexter calves from the torture of dehorning.

DNA experts have proven that old outcross genetics are mostly lost in 4-5 generations unless you specifically select for certain genes to carry forward.

[lonecowhand]

You can name it altruism, I see it as greed at the expense of a Heritage Breed. The American herd did not allow polled, or "upgrading" to achieve it.

And by the way, when someone threatens a sitting board with lawsuit to get their way, even though they know they are wrong, they have crossed over the threshold of chicanery to coercion.

[cascade]

You've got the story wrong...

Here's the real factual history.

The real history is that Dexter associations had long ago (since the early 1960's) made hornless Dexters equal to horned Dexters. The majority of Dexter owners supported that because the majority were interfering with horn growth on at least some of their Dexters.

Also, in the 1950's and 60's and 70's and 80's, Americans had been importing Dexter's from foreign registries, and some of those imported Dexters were hornless.

So the rules clearly allowed for hornless Dexters to be imported.

The rules said NOTHING about preferring one method of interfering with horn growth, over any other. The rules simply said that horned Dexters and hornless Dexters are equal.

Since breeders had already been importing hornless Dexters from foreign registries, Fred requested that he be allowed to import one himself.

Some of the not-too-smart board members tried to block Fred's request, but they had no valid reason to do so. So the association's own attorney reviewed the case and the association's own attorney told the not-so-smart board members that they were breaking the rules.

Fred didn't need to threaten to sue, because the association's own attorney could see that a handful of wrong-headed board members trying to block Fred's request were in the wrong.

The moral of this history lesson, is that if you want to force a breed to have horns, then you shouldn't have allowed ANY hornless animals to be registered.

It was the folks who dehorned their Dexters in the 1950's, 60's, 70's, 80's that converted Dexters into a largely hornless breed.

[cascade]

Here's a hornless foreign Dexter that was imported into  the US a decade before the hornless Saltaire Platinum was imported.

This is Trillium Cluny.

[lonecowhand]

"Hornlessness" is not the same as crossbred "Polledness".

Hornlessness does not affect the outcome of genetic breeding, the future progeny have not been altered.

Polledness does affect the future progeny, it changes the breed, especially when the polled gene is introduced from an animal outside the breed. The polled trait comes with at least half of the genetics of the donor breed. It makes the progeny half breeds, diluting the genetics that the breed is based on.

There were rules, good ones, in place to protect the Dexter breed in America from "upgrading", or mixing with other breeds. The "Not-to-Smart" (your words) board members you refer to were following the rules, For Good Reason.

Your unique version of "real factual history" does not square with statements made at the time by seated board members. Members who did not stand to gain by the inclusion of Saltaire Platinum.

Your last statement is complete fallacy, as you cant see a difference between a crossbred animal verses a purebred one whose horns have been docked for whatever reason.

Does a Rhinoceros stop being a rhinoceros once his horn is trimmed? Does it affect it's ability to breed? Did docking change it's genetic potential?

[cascade]

America only had one rule:

Only Dexters born to two registered Dexter's (in any official registry), may be registered in the US Registry.

Both of Platinum's parents were registered in the UK Dexter Cattle Society Registry, so he was eligible.


Parndon Bullfinch was imported from the UK in the 1960's... He had two registered parents in the UK Registry, but he had tons of blanks on his pedigree. He's on most all "Traditional" pedigrees.

legacydextercattleregistry.com/pedigree.php?registry=A®no=1361