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Post by jamshundred on Dec 4, 2015 19:42:40 GMT
A fellow breeder asked privately if there were signs to watch for if a homo dwarf were being carried by a mother Dexter. I can only suggest one thing. Watch the girth of the cow.
I have seen 6 bulldog calves born on my farm. I "think" I may have had one aborted early this year. . as a dwarf cow is late in her calving pattern. ( The percentages are not in sync with the mathmatical predictions). I have noted on two occasions that cows who later calved a non-viable fetus were very large through the girth. Looking from the rear or the front both sides were extended quite noticeably late in pregnancy. There is a breeder in England who breeds chondro and he keeps records and reports a 6% loss. ( That is LESS than our national governement quotes for normal death rate in herds of non-dwarf cattle so stop letting the naysayers scare you. . . . .death happens in all breeds and types, Lord knows the internet has been full of normally formed Dexter calves this year and not a single report of a bulldog calf).
I am always willing to take the percentage of chance. The chondro cattle are so unique and special.
This was a good question. . . . and I am wanting in the answer department.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Dec 5, 2015 0:51:05 GMT
Dwarf simply means "unusually short stature". Lots of different things can cause plants and animals to have unusually short statures. Dwarf Nigerian goats have short statures and they don't have Chondro. Lots of short Dexters are truly short and don't have Chondro.
You can breed non-chondro shorts to non-chondro shorts and have 100% live healthy short calves with all those wonderful short features that you love, without the hassles of the Chondro lethal gene.
If you breed Chondro x Chondro, 25% will fail to be born alive and healthy....if someone has a record of only 6% failed pregnancies in breeding short to short, it's because many of their short animals are likely Non-Chondro, true-shorts.
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Post by wvdexters on Dec 5, 2015 4:36:37 GMT
Hi Kirk, I believe the use of the word "dwarf" was quite proper in the above post.
Dwarf -a person who is of unusually or abnormally small stature because of a medical condition; a person affected by dwarfism. - A person with a usually genetic disorder resulting in atypically short stature and often disproportionate limbs.
It is incorrect to state that the word simply means "unusually short stature". As it means far more. And as fellow Dexter breeders we all must acknowledge the fact that our breed has 2 body types.
Personally I believe this is a very good thread. One that many breeders will find very interesting and informative. Whether they choose to own dwarf dexters (chondro) themselves or not. Whatever their own personal breeding practices are. The fact is that these animals have always been a very important part of the Dexter Breed both historically and are still today.
I truly hope we as a group can keep to the intended topic - Signs to Watch for if a homo dwarf were being carried by a mother Dexter........................... and not degrade it to another disagreement about chondro. We've already done that so many times. I don't think there is truly anything left to say.
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Post by cascade on Dec 5, 2015 19:20:59 GMT
Dwarfism (unusual shortness) can be caused by many different factors. All sorts of genes can cause a plant or animal to be "dwarfed", also poor nutrition in youth can cause dwarfism, Childhood disease can cause dwarfism. In plant and animal breeding terminology, the term dwarf simply means "Short of Stature" and it gets applied to all sorts of shorter breeds of plants and animals that can breed true. www.rareseeds.com/dwarf-grey-sugar-peaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_African_Dwarf_(sheep)en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Dwarf_goatThere's even a dwarf African breed of cattle called "Ghana Dwarf Muturu" he's the one on the far left.  These dwarf breeds typically come from areas where soil/climate is limited, so selection favors smaller animals that can thrive. Sometimes animals that live on islands with limited resources develop into a dwarf breed. Elephants trapped on islands long ago, developed into dwarf elephants. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_elephantIn cattle, all sorts of things can cause them to be dwarf (short). There are two different chondro genes, other lethal dwarf genes, poor nutrition, disease, and other genetics that can cause them to be short. In the 1800's, Dexters didn't exist as a separate breed. They were one of the two types of Kerry Cattle.... Regular-Kerry vs. Dexter-Kerry. The term "Dexter" was used to describe shorter things. So "Dexter Kerry" meant shorter Kerry. It was Kerry cattle that had "two body types".... Dexter Kerry were meant to ALL be shorter and rounder and beefier with shorter legs, while Regular-Kerry were meant to be a little taller and more dairy built. When Kerry cattle were finally split into two separate breeds, they simply visually selected the shorter animals to be in the Dexter group. The animals in this group would have included many naturally shorter animals along with chondro-dwarfs, nutritional-dwarfs, etc.. The naturally shorter animals could breed true and have 100% naturally shorter offspring, but the chondro-dwarfs and nutritional-dwarfs could hide much larger genetics and throw much larger calves. Rather than solving the problem of having Dexter Cattle (which means "Short Cattle") sometimes having Regular-Kerry sized offspring, many breeders just started accepting the taller offspring. But some breeders like Beryl Rutherford (Woodmagic) sorted it out and selected for true-Dexters.... All truly shorter in stature. But even then, Dexters don't have two body types..... they have tons of different body types. Some very short, some sorta short, some with VERY long legs, some with very long bodies, some with less long bodies, etc.. The "Two Body Type" language is completely misleading. Back to subject of this thread...... "Dwarf" doesn't always mean Chondro, and not all Chondro's are dwarfs (based on some the pictures I've seen). So the title of this thread might better have said "Chondro X Chondro Breeding". Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics did many breeding experiments using dwarf peas. |
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Post by karenp on Dec 5, 2015 21:48:39 GMT
slightly off topic, but is there a non-dwarf Nigerian goat with the same features, but larger?
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 6, 2015 0:27:00 GMT
Speakimg of science a d the errors..........hasn't modern science determined that research of Mendell believed to be absolute for centuries is not'
Karen, I have been thinking of you the past week as January is just around the corner. I was supposed to take Christmas back to PA last month but he injured his leg and is visiting local. I am not sure who will make the trip north.
i have only seen small Nigerian dwarf goats. They are larger than pygmys but still small.
judy
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Post by cascade on Dec 6, 2015 0:33:40 GMT
Karen,
There are a couple of newer breeds of goats based on the dwarf Nigerian. The Dwarf Nigerian is rather impractical... too small for meat and too difficult to milk.
Mini-Nubians are a terrific breed that have the best features of Nubians and the best features of Nigerian Dwarfs.. Their size is perfect, their milk and meat is terrific, they aren't as noisy as pure nubians, and they have great personalities. Mini-Nubians were created generations ago by crossing Nubians with Nigerian dwarfs, then, via 5 generations of selection, making a new pure breed that breeds true.
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 6, 2015 0:47:09 GMT
I think the Kinder goats developed late last century in Washington State are a breed to be considered. They were also developed with Nubiams. I started with Kinders as Nubians are my favorite goats and I am partial to anything small and then I made the mistake of buying a goat that brought absesses into my goat herd, and eventually I gave up on goats. (I thought I was rid of escape artists as well but the Dexters as just as good at it).
judy
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