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Post by cascade on May 14, 2016 20:42:51 GMT
The 1900 breed description says ALL DEXTERS should have " legs short (especially from knee to fetlock), strong, and well placed under body, which should be as close to the ground as possible". It says NOTHING at all about having some with long legs and some with short legs. Some of the example cows posted on that same page on your website don't fit that old breed description at all. It's obvious that the old 1900 breed description was talking about True-Breeding True-Short Dexters (all with shorter legs) and NOT talking about Chondro-Dwarfs (a mix of long and short legs). When was the 1900 breed description altered to allow for Dexters with long legs? Were you too busy looking at this cows horns to notice that she has VERY long legs and doesn't meet the 1900 breed description?  PS. Will you be banning dehorning in your new club? |
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Post by bruff64 on May 14, 2016 20:53:57 GMT
Kurt, you and your fellowship have successfully converted the oldest historical Dexter cattle association into a Lowline Angus club. I don't see the point of you continuing to intrude on those that wish to work on the original lines and pick up the torch that was dropped by ADCA. ADCA is a polled faux miniature Angus club now, that has been accepted by this group and the funeral is over. We are not hovering over the gravestone and have moved on so why don't you as well.
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Post by bruff64 on May 14, 2016 20:56:56 GMT
"Lowline cattle are a breed of small, polled beef cattle which were developed by breeders in Australia from black Aberdeen Angus cattle.[1] They are small without having a specific dwarfing gene. They are now popular in the United States."
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Post by bruff64 on May 14, 2016 21:00:56 GMT
Phenotype:
Mature Lowline bulls will generally fall into a range of 40-48 inches measured at the shoulder and weigh from 900-1500 pounds. Mature cows should measure from 38-46 inches and weigh between 700-1100 pounds. Certain individuals will fall outside of these parameters. Judgment should be made on quality and confirmation rather than size.
The most discriminating feature of the head should be a well defined prominent poll. The eyes are large and prominent. Females should show no coarseness about the head, which should be angular, of moderate length with a broad forehead. Jaws should be clean and the throatlatch free of excessive skin. Ears should not droop, be of medium size and fully haired. Often the face of both sexes will have a slight dish.
The neck should be smooth, of moderate length and blend smoothly at the top of the shoulders. The dewlap should be of modest size with a full brisket in finished cattle. The mature bull should possess masculinity about head and neck without coarseness of shoulder.
The top line of a Lowline should be straight and long. The fore rib should be well sprung with fullness beneath the crops. There should be depth of both front and rear flank and the barrel should be deep and uniform from end to end. Width should be carried from front to rear and the loin should be long and deep with adequate length from the hooks to the pins. The rump should be well muscled in the lower round and stifle.
The Lowline should stand squarely on sound feet and legs of modest length. The rear leg should have a slight angle at the hock when viewed from the side. The feet should be relatively round, have an adequate depth of heel and uniform length of toes. Knees and hocks should be smooth and clean with feet pointing forward. Lowlines should have freedom of movement and length of stride.
Lowlines are predominantly black in color; however, a red gene (e) and a wild allele (E+) expressing red color have been identified in the breed. Red cattle are accepted for registration. White markings on the underline are not uncommon but should be restricted to the area behind the navel. A white scrotum on bulls is not desirable.
Bulls should show masculinity, libido and adequate scrotal development. The sheath should be trim and free from excess skin showing a retracted prepuce. Females should be feminine, showing longevity with a well-balanced level udder and small teat size. Both sexes should be docile and easy to handle.
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Post by bruff64 on May 14, 2016 21:01:55 GMT
I frankly don't see why Cascade Farms went with Dexters to begin with.
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Post by cascade on May 15, 2016 0:05:55 GMT
Dexters have quite a bit of milk to share with humans.... Lowlines don't
Dexters are much more hardy and disease resistant than Lowlines
Dexters weigh less than lowlines and are easier on soggy pastures
Dexter bulls and cows are much more friendly and personable than Lowlines
Dexters are much safer than Lowlines (I've got 70 dexters including many, many bulls and I've never been injured).
Now, back to my question. Your new website says you want to stick with the 1900 description of Dexters, but that 1900 description says ALL dexters should be true-shorts with short legs and it says NOTHING about dwarfism. When was the 1900 breed description altered to allow for the Chondro mix of short legs and long legs? Seems like you guys are ok with altering the breed description for some things, but not other things.
PS. Why do so many of you "traditionalists" dehorn some of your dexters? We leave the horns on ALL of ours that are born with horns.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 15, 2016 2:22:39 GMT
Kirk, would you like to explain why a very prominent breeder of registered Dexters would also keep a fair number of Lowline Angus cows at their farm? Just wondering...
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2016 12:56:13 GMT
Kirk if I thought there was any sincerity in your questions I would respond to them. It is clear you are just trolling. We have all watched you play these sad little games for years. I have yet to figure out your need to be the center of attention or why you feel such a need to comment on something you have made it very clear you want nothing to do with.
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Post by cascade on May 15, 2016 14:49:17 GMT
I don't understand why anyone would ever have anything but Dexters on their farm...Dexters are terrific. Why do some Dexter breeders have other breeds such as Highlands, and why do they cross them with Dexters?
All of my posts are absolutely sincere. The new Legacy club announced that they want to use the 1900 breed standard with zero changes. I see no problem with that if they follow every word of it. But the Legacy club is picking and choosing which parts of the 1900 description to follow, and which parts to ignore.
You are brushing off my sincere questions because my questions show a serious flaw in the basis of your new club.
What year was Dun added to the breed description?
What year was the dwarfism term of long-legged (vs. Short-legged) added to the breed description?
Were dehorned Dexters ever banned and excluded from the registry?
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Post by wvdexters on May 15, 2016 16:00:48 GMT
Hi Kirk,
It's been a while since you have been on here. I hope everything is going well with your herd this spring.
I see you are interested in Legacy Dexter Cattle Breeders group. It is such exciting news!! For all of us.
With the old lines disappearing so quickly, I believe most would agree that preservation is a positive goal, and definitely a positive step for this heritage breed. And with the word getting out and the growing number of breeders interested in preservation, the outlook is improving for these productive animals to be here for future generations.
LDCB is growing and I believe will become a very positive voice in the Dexter community.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 15, 2016 17:24:09 GMT
I don't understand why anyone would ever have anything but Dexters on their farm...Dexters are terrific. Why do some Dexter breeders have other breeds such as Highlands, and why do they cross them with Dexters? Highlands are terrific too. Very durable and disease resistant. I'd say even more so than Dexters. The Highlands love our winters here in Michigan. But we love the size of our Dexters, especially the carriers. Highlands take a long time to mature... We like the carrier gene so much that we're breeding it into our Highlands to get the long hair and short stature of the chondro Dexter, and maybe a little faster maturity. I have three chondro carrier 96% Highland bull calves born this year on the farm. I've already had offers to buy any one of them for $7000 from a buyer in Colorado. That little bull calf would purchase a lot of hay for this upcoming winter. However I don't pretend that they are 100% Highlands, and I certainly don't try to register them in the AHCA! However, when a prominent polled Dexter breeder has (this is a fact, not speculation) Lowline Angus on their farm, I get suspicious...many polled Dexters that I've seen look an awful lot like Lowline Angus. Think of it...all the hard work has already been done over the past 40 years of careful selection and line breeding to produce that short Angus cow or bull that crossed with a Dexter still has some of the Dexter characteristics. Some of them behave like Angus too...I know somebody who has a cow from that farm with the registered polled Dexters, and the cow went after and attacked their young son. There wasn't even a young calf of that cow nearby. Is that Dexter behavior, or Lowline Angus behavior? I do know that there was tremendous incentive to produce polled Dexters in the past 8-10 years. You could 100% have polled "Dexters" if a polled Dexter bull was used over a Lowline Angus cow. No need to worry whether a bull was homozygous or not. No need to worry because the Lowline Angus was homozygous, so 100% would be polled calves. And it would increase the prospect of getting homozygous "Dexter" calves too. And, rather than being a small fish in a big Lowline Angus pond, you can be a big fish in a small Dexter pond. That appeals to some people... |
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Post by cascade on May 16, 2016 14:10:51 GMT
UC Davis Genetics Lab has an easy DNA test to determine if a Dexter is pure Dexter. False claims that polled Dexters have Angus genetics have been dismissed by genetics experts.
Purposefully spreading lethal genes, like Chondrodysplasia, to create "cute" designer pets is being outlawed in many places.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 15:35:16 GMT
genetic test are not 100%. Some are very accurate and some not so much. A test that produces a result that is known to be false is not worth much.
In case you did not know your polled test also falls into that group. It has already given several false results.
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Post by lonecowhand on May 16, 2016 18:25:45 GMT
Well spoken, Karrie! Your kindness seems unbounded.
Cascade, you have a way of getting folks to engage, Good for you on that front. Occasionally everyone needs to get passionate about something, and here, that passion is Original,Unsullied Horned Dexters. No polled genetics for this crew!
The UC Davis lab did not use Legacy Qualified Dexters as their control group, their control group contained animals be-smerched with Platinum, so results are suspect, at the least.
Clearly, Mr Dexter selected Dwarf cows to start his breed, doing so for hardiness, economy of scale, and temperament. Back then no one wanted "cute" expensive "pets". They wanted to Eat! and Milk! and Plow!
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Post by cascade on May 16, 2016 18:25:52 GMT
genetic test are not 100%. Some are very accurate and some not so much. A test that produces a result that is known to be false is not worth much. If you can't mostly trust genetic tests, how are chondro breeders avoiding dead calves? and how are "purists" assuring that their calves aren't sired by other breeds? |
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Post by cascade on May 16, 2016 19:07:58 GMT
Well spoken, Karrie! Your kindness seems unbounded. Cascade, you have a way of getting folks to engage, Good for you on that front. Occasionally everyone needs to get passionate about something, and here, that passion is Original,Unsullied Horned Dexters. No polled genetics for this crew! The UC Davis lab did not use Legacy Qualified Dexters as their control group, their control group contained animals be-smerched with Platinum, so results are suspect, at the least. Clearly, Mr Dexter selected Dwarf cows to start his breed, doing so for hardiness, economy of scale, and temperament. Back then no one wanted "cute" expensive "pets". They wanted to Eat! and Milk! and Plow! 1. I fully support your drive to preserve some dexters with horns. 2. I fully support your drive to attempt to follow the 1900 breed description, if you follow every word of it and don't pick and choose. 3. There is no such thing as "Polled Genetics".... the polled gene is a stand-alone gene... no horned cows have "polled genetics" 4. The UC Davis lab only included horned dexters in the control group of their first run of the test, but there were a tiny number of horned animals that had a tiny bit of platinum back on their pedigrees. That would not have affected the test substantially, but UC Davis reran the test removing those animals from the test group, and got the same result... Saltaire Platinum is pure Dexter. Ask Judy to share that rerun results with you. 5. There was no "Mr. Dexter"... that's a myth.... The word "Dexter" in Ireland, meant smaller or short and stocky..... In the early days they used the term "Dexter Kerry" and that simply meant "Smaller/Shorter Kerry". The original Dexters were selected by how they looked. If they were short and stocky, then they were considered "Dexters". In selecting short and stocky animals, without the aid of DNA testing, you would select some chondro dwarfs and some naturally short and stocky non-chondro animals. The 1900 breed description makes it very clear that they were talking about 100% true-breeding short and stocky dexters, not Chondro. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 19:27:21 GMT
once again you read what you want to. some test are extremely accurate and some are not. A genetic test has to prove to be accurate before you can assume it is. the chondro and PHA test have been around long enough and used extensively. The only inaccurate results I have heard of came from an iffy lab. Color test also seem to be accurate but I am not so sure there would be much concern if some of them had resulted incorrectly.
I know the polled test is not accurate there have been incorrect results on that come back.
and a test that claims a Dexter is pure who has documented upgrades can not possibly be an accurate test. It is just common sense.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 16, 2016 20:12:49 GMT
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Post by cascade on May 16, 2016 20:49:16 GMT
Hans, are those your dehorned cattle? I know you dehorn many many animals because you don't really like horns all that much.
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Post by cascade on May 16, 2016 21:04:39 GMT
a test that claims a Dexter is pure who has documented upgrades can not possibly be an accurate test. It is just common sense. If you understand genetics, you understand that each generation, 50% (on average) of an ancestor's genes are erased and lost. Theoretically, you have 8 great grandparents and you theoretically should have 1/8th of each great grandparent's genes..... But the reality is that you may have a BIG dose of one great grandparent's genes, and NONE of another great grandparent's genes. You might not even be genetically related to some of your great grandparents because all of their genes may have been lost in the 50% gene-loss each generation. A DNA test for purity, can look to see if an animal has a dose of genes from an off-breed ancestor or not. All Dexters have non-dexters in their backgrounds. Saltaire Platinum's genes look just like any other typical Dexter and show no remaining sign of angus or any other breed from the past. His genes are just as pure as a "legacy" dexter's genes. Further, Saltaire Platinum has no recorded off-breed cattle in his paper backgound.... If he does, then please give me the breed name. |
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Post by lonecowhand on May 16, 2016 22:51:55 GMT
Cascade,
(1) Our drive is to preserve all Traditional Dexters which have the capability to replicate their original features, including horns.
(2) You cannot fully support the attempt to follow the description while breeding polled, outcrossed animals.
(3) There certainly is, since polled is a dominant gene. If you want to split hairs on semantics, it won't help your case.
(4) Saw that, still don't buy the "Miracle of Polledness" There would be a different result against Legacy Qualified control.
(5) You were there? Someone selected the type, and I believe the available documentation to be correct.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 17, 2016 0:20:22 GMT
a test that claims a Dexter is pure who has documented upgrades can not possibly be an accurate test. It is just common sense. If you understand genetics, you understand that each generation, 50% (on average) of an ancestor's genes are erased and lost. Theoretically, you have 8 great grandparents and you theoretically should have 1/8th of each great grandparent's genes..... But the reality is that you may have a BIG dose of one great grandparent's genes, and NONE of another great grandparent's genes. You might not even be genetically related to some of your great grandparents because all of their genes may have been lost in the 50% gene-loss each generation. A DNA test for purity, can look to see if an animal has a dose of genes from an off-breed ancestor or not. All Dexters have non-dexters in their backgrounds. Saltaire Platinum's genes look just like any other typical Dexter and show no remaining sign of angus or any other breed from the past. His genes are just as pure as a "legacy" dexter's genes. Further, Saltaire Platinum has no recorded off-breed cattle in his paper backgound.... If he does, then please give me the breed name. Kirk, you entirely avoided my question...don't you have any reservations about the integrity of a polled Dexter that may come from a farm that also had more than a few Lowline Angus cows and/or bull calves, even if and especially because there was a registered polled Dexter bull on site? |
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Post by cascade on May 17, 2016 0:31:38 GMT
Cascade, (1) Our drive is to preserve all Traditional Dexters which have the capability to replicate their original features, including horns. (2) You cannot fully support the attempt to follow the description while breeding polled, outcrossed animals. (3) There certainly is, since polled is a dominant gene. If you want to split hairs on semantics, it won't help your case. (4) Saw that, still don't buy the "Miracle of Polledness" There would be a different result against Legacy Qualified control. (5) You were there? Someone selected the type, and I believe the available documentation to be correct. 1. My herd of dexters has the ability to produce horns, I just use a polled gene to dehorn them. If I want more horns, I can just use one of my hetero-polled bulls to give me some horned calves. If your new club is completely banning dehorning, then I guess I can't be part of your 100% horns with no-dehorning allowed club. 2. All Dexters come from non-dexters. The 1900 breed description said nothing about out-crossing. All Dexters in 1900, came from parents or grandparents that weren't purebred registered dexters. 3. There is a polled gene, but any animal that has horns, has ZERO polled genes (polled gene can't hide). So horned animals can NOT carry "polled genetics". 4. The "Miracle" of Polledness" is simply a broken horn regulator gene. Genes break all the time. That's what cancer is. It's just a broken gene. 5. The original Dexters that were used to form the original registry, were simply selected on sight.... If they looked short-statured, then they included them in the original registry for Dexters, if they were bigger, they were counted as Kerry cattle. This would have put the Chondros and True-Shorts (shorter non-chondros) all together into the Dexter registry... but would have excluded longer legged cattle. |
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Post by bruff64 on May 17, 2016 0:45:56 GMT
True-Short Lowline Faux cattle. You have done a good job. You can work on polled White Dexters next as I suppose it is cruel to have black cattle in the sun.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 17, 2016 1:23:48 GMT
Hans, are those your dehorned cattle? I know you dehorn many many animals because you don't really like horns all that much. Well since those are polled Lowline cows and bulls, I think they resemble yours more than they do mine. Even the ones that I dehorn as young calf have a traditional Dexter appearance to their other features. But I have quite a few that look like these: goo.gl/photos/cHWi2AcsXjgGo4pR8 |
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Post by jamshundred on May 17, 2016 14:02:44 GMT
Kirk,
You know, and you have stated, that the great-great grandmother of Saltaire Platinum was not a mutation. We all know it now. There is no supportive science behind that error. The English fell flat when they used that method to bring in polled because the premise was likely originally based on error which may have taken a turn to fraud at a later date. Adding to the egregious actions of a few, there were two other errors/fraud registrations which lackadaisical and unprofessional leadership in the US managed to "overlook". It is a travesty that the breed has been wiped out by a GRADE animal. Most would never seek or buy a dog from a breed you desire with such a convoluted pedigree. You would seek a true representative of the breed. Too bad cattle to not engender the same allegiance and respect. Is it that we do not eat our dogs that we place more value on the honesty of their pedigrees?
The polled test at UCD has been reviewed. You can no longer consider the determination you published to be accurate. When samples of only Legacy animals are used there is a different result. I am pretty sure you know this and your credibility suffers when you keep repeating that which you know not to be true. . .. . . because it serves your interests. . . . and not the interests of the breed itself. We are caretakers of the breed developed by nature on the hillsides of Ireland. A magnificent creation of form and function we should respect and seek to preserve.
White Dexters were mentioned in the thread. It is unfortunate that they have been called "White Dexters", just as it is unfortunate that the polled animals are called "Polled Dexters". There is no difference in their origin. Both were developed to set characteristics found in a different breed. I understand that trading on the attributes of the Dexter breed has value, but it is still not accurate. Both efforts would sustain less controversy if they were to give the new breeds developed a new identity and let the breed stand on it's own merits rather than trading on those of Dexters.
By the way, I have heard they are developing polled "White Dexters" with a polled bull. The polled breeders are going to experience some stiff competition. You have developed your "breed" from a grade animal, pretended them to be the equivalent of the traditional Dexters when they are not, and more and more owners who have experience of both are speaking out as to the noticeable differences. When those attractive polled "White Dexters" begin to grow in numbers and hit the market. . .. . the fad buyers, fickle anyway, will be filling their pastures with white. I no longer concern myself with red polled Dexters. .. . . .the people who have ran the gamut of profit on them will discover their customers find the white with the dark points to be far more appealing. You should begin to worry yesterday. If I were breeding to establish the White Dexter breed, I'd go out and buy a passel of cull Dexters, flush my top "White Dexter" cows and plant embryos as fast as the vet could place them in the wombs. What difference in polled "White Dexters" and polled red and black Dexters? NONE! Actually, if they develop them correctly, the White Polled Dexters would have more claim to Dexter traits than the polled Dexters as polled was never properly developed and there are FOUR outcrosses in those lines. Yep. Polled breeders should be scrambling. As a matter of fact, I hear a few well-known breeders not currently involved are already looking into "White Dexters". They have nothing but a big old controversy of error/fraud to offer potential buyers of black/dun/red polled Dexters. . . . and the polled White Dexters have some big time curb appeal to market and we certainly have our share of opportunists who will find the appeal of this new breed a guaranteed profit maker for those in the supply chain. Worry. Be very worried. The polled black/red/dun Dexters are about to be the fad of yesterday.
Judy
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Post by cascade on May 17, 2016 14:48:00 GMT
There are two primary scientifically backed possibilities for Saltaire Platinum's polled gene, and we will never know which one occured for certain...
1. Mutation (broken gene)
2. Accidental calf swap of an ancestor with a Dairy-Shorthorn bull sire.
We will never know for certain which occurred... But we do know that Saltaire Platinum tests as pure dexter by genetics experts and is the only DNA purity-tested Dexter bull so far. Both tests run show no genetics from other breeds.
White Dexters don't meet the breed standard.
Dexters without horns DO meet the breed standard.
Will the Legacy Club ban hornless dexters?
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Post by cascade on May 17, 2016 15:01:21 GMT
[quote author=" lakeportfarms" said: don't you have any reservations about the integrity of a polled Dexter that may come from a farm that also had more than a few Lowline Angus cows and/or bull calves, even if and especially because there was a registered polled Dexter bull on site?[/quote] Why would anyone use an udderless Angus, when red homozygous polled A2/A2 purebred dexter bulls and cows with substantial udders have been easily available for more than a decade? I've got 10+ red homozygous polled A2/A2 bulls out in my pasture if you want one or two. |
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Post by bruff64 on May 17, 2016 15:12:21 GMT
"Will the Legacy Club ban hornless dexters?"
Genetically polled = yes
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 15:45:16 GMT
To clarify for any one other than Kirk that might read this we will not be "banning" anyone. We are dedicated to preserving Legacy and traditional dexters. AI Listings and for sale listings are only available for dexters in those categorys.
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