Will Legacy Breeders Ban Dun Dexters?

[cascade]

The new Legacy Dexter Club says they want to follow every word of the 1900 Breed Standard but that standard says only black or red are allowed.   Some big old-time breeders said they had these dirty oak table colored (dun) dexters and they culled them. Others had had them, too, but the color wasn't accepted, and they mostly all got culled, except those few that looked VERY red. 

The ADCA accepts dun, and I'm ok with that (even though I don't personally want any because they add to DNA testing costs).  

Is the new Legacy Club also accepting them (and ignoring the 1900 breed description)?      

[Deleted]

wow you seam quite obsessed over something that does not concern you at all. 

[bruff64]

This cow, TinRoof Poppy
Registration # L21127TH-13HH
Is descended from old lines without incidence of upgrades. Sire and dam genotyped 3 generations prior to the ADCA's adopting of the practice. She is not eligible for ADCA registration, or I should say she was registered with the ADCA but they chose to revoke/rescind the registration. Her sire was a genotyped bull registered with Legacy who's sire and dam were also genotyped. There are multitude of examples similar to this out there. Yet your polled red cattle qualify with upgraded genetics. This is one of the root causes to this ongoing conflict. The upgraded genetics were introduced after the BOD voted against it and it seems under threat retreated when they showed up in the registry. So no more double speak about the rules being the rules and traditionalists needing to suck it up. Polled cattle will always be regarded as non pure Dexters if for the sole fact that deception was used to introduce them into the Registry. The ADCA will never escape this fact and because it chose to go with a hard line on this issue created a fissure that will only widen with time. Folks like pure bred. Legacy Dexter Breeders own that history and the polled cattle will always be upgraded admixtures. Keep up the rhetoric and the cattle call for Traditional Genetically Horned Dexters of historically pure breeding will get louder.

[lonecowhand]

Sort of acting like someone who was not invited to the party, so feels the need to impugn those who were.

[cascade]

It does concern me. I'm very interested in preserving the wonderful features of dexters and I pretty much follow the 1900 breed description. I select for red or black only (no dun), I select toward shorter legs in ALL my dexters and I consider long legs to be a fault to be corrected (just like the 1900 breed description says). I'm considering becoming a member of the Legacy Dexter Org so I can vote. I might even run for a director position.

[cascade]

May 17, 2016 22:34:26 GMT bruff64 said:

This cow, TinRoof Poppy
Registration # L21127TH-13HH
Is descended from old lines without incidence of upgrades. Sire and dam genotyped 3 generations prior to the ADCA's adopting of the practice. She is not eligible for ADCA registration, or I should say she was registered with the ADCA but they chose to revoke/rescind the registration. Her sire was a genotyped bull registered with Legacy who's sire and dam were also genotyped. There are multitude of examples similar to this out there. Yet your polled red cattle qualify with upgraded genetics. 

In the case of Saltaire Platinum, he was presented for acceptance in the ADCA a quarter of a century ago.  His purity was checked and the UK considered him pure, so the entire debate of whether to accept him or not, involved his polledness NOT his purity.  I've gone back and looked at all of the records and nobody challenged his purity at all, but they did strongly challenge bringing in a polled animal on the grounds that polled should NOT be allowed in the US.   The importer successfully argued that if the ADCA allowed physical dehorning of Dexters, they must also allow genetic dehorning of Dexters, because there was no restriction on dehorning dexters nor the method of dehorning.  

Saltaire Platinum followed ALL the rules at the time of acceptance:

 1. His purity was checked and approved (with NO disputes on that).
 2. His hornless status was hotly debated, but there were no rules against hornless dexters and many people already had hornless dexters, so Directors were forced to accept him whether they liked it or not (rules are rules).   They couldn't accept SOME hornless dexters and reject others.   The folks who were dehorning dexters, made it possible to argue that polledness must be accepted. 

Animals being rejected today are NOT following all the current rules (or they would be accepted).

The ADCA has a set of rules and we follow them.  The process was followed with Saltaire Platinum, and the process is being followed with today's registrations.  

    

[lonecowhand]

Ghost Writers in the Sky...

[bruff64]

Addition of Polled semen to the ADCA from England:

AGM July 17, 1993 - White River Junction, Vermont
Officers: Pres- Phil Martz Sr, VP- Harry Julian, Sec/Treas/Registrar - Rosemary Fleharty
Board MembersPresent: 1- Jim Mitchell, 2-Sandi Thomas, 3- Bonnie Boudreau, 4- Mary Springer, 7- Jim Johnson, , 9-Wes Patton, 11-Sophia Stillerman, 12- Amy Record, 13- W.B. Goodson
Absent: 5- Sylvia Stan, 6- George Branson, 8- Ernst Gulzau, 10- Cliff Heistad,
Directors at Large: Donna Hutchinson, Jim Moody
Carol Davidson requested the BOD accept semen from a polled bull from England.
A handwritten letter was presented claiming the bull was the result of a mutation. We were told the animal had been accepted & registered in England.
The motion was denied. The discussion and decision revealed the desire of the BOD was to keep the Horned Dexter status w/o the Polled intrusion….mutation or not.
AGM June 11, 1994 - Chico California
Officers: Pres- Wes Patton, VP- Amy Record, Sec/Treas/Registrar - Rosemary Fleharty
Board Members Present: 1- Jim Mitchell, 2-Sandi Thomas, 3- Bonnie Boudreau, 4- Mary Springer, 7- Jim Johnson, 9-John Hays, 11- Kathleen Smith, 12- Vacant.
Absent:VP Amy Record, 5- Sylvia Stan, 6- George Branson, 8- Ernst Gulzau, 10- Phil Martz Sr, 13- Jim Nerenhausen
Directors at Large: Carol Davidson, SophiaStillerman
Note: Soon after arrival in Chico for the 1994 meeting I was approached by Dean Fleharty and was told the decision made by the BOD regarding the polled bull semen at last year’s AGM had been overturned on advise of an Attorney. The bull had been accepted and was already registered.
The Director's were informed at the Friday evening’s BOD Meeting that our decision from the year before had been “overturned” , there wouldn’t be any further discussion about it, the subject was closed.

Offspring from Platinum, born (prior to this AGM announcement) in April & May 1994 had already been recorded in the ADCA Registry (not published at the time of the 1994 meeting)
The record of Saltaire Platinum offspring up to 3/1/1999 are pasted here:

[bruff64]

I would like to see your sources for the claims you make. Can you post the records that contradict the above and show us where Carol Davidson successfully changed the minds of the BOD?.

[cascade]

I've heard several slightly different versions of the story.. It wasn't Carol who was primarily pushing to import the semen, instead is was the owner of the Llanfair herd, Fred Chesterley (now deceased) and his son, who were primarily trying to import the bull (with Carol's Help) for their use in their Llanfair herd .

Many people were de-horning their Dexters back then and Fred was tired of doing it. He discussed the idea that the polled gene is just another dehorning-method. The argument to the board, was that since all Dexter registries allow de-horning (by any method), then Fred should be allowed to dehorn his Dexters using the very best and humane method... the polled gene. Many people were opposed to allowing the import of a polled dexter. But there were NO rules against it.. In fact, the rules specifically stated that dehorned dexters are equal to horned dexters.

While the board would have liked to have blocked the import request, the ADCA's lawyers said that the bull met all the rules for import to the best of everyone's knowledge at the time, so it had to be done.  

Every slightly different version of the story I've heard agrees on these basic points:

1. An ADCA member requested approval for import of S.P.
2. The board wanted to turn it down because they didn't want polled.
3. The board's distaste for polled was NOT a legally valid reason to turn it down.
4. The request went through, to avoid possible legal liability.
5. NO ONE questioned the purity of Saltaire Platinum's pedigree until many years later.

Bottom line: Once you allow for hornless dexters, you can't keep the polled gene from being used.  There are now many other sources of the polled gene, that could be imported according to the current rules.  

[bruff64]

One thing you seem to consistently ignore is the fact that the elected BODs voted not to accept the import from another Registry. That act was overturned not by the membership or the BODs but by an attorney. And was that Attorney an ADCA paid Attorney or hired by another party. You seem to pride yourself on factual information, where is the rest of the story?

[cascade]

Jun 9, 2016 23:26:18 GMT bruff64 said:

One thing you seem to consistently ignore is the fact that the elected BODs voted not to accept the import from another Registry. That act was overturned not by the membership or the BODs but by an attorney. And was that Attorney an ADCA paid Attorney or hired by another party. You seem to pride yourself on factual information, where is the rest of the story?

A true "Vote" should never have taken place.   They should have simply read the existing import rules and applied the existing import rules.  The Board of Directors does NOT have the power to vote for things that are illegal or against the existing rules and regulations.  It is illegal for the board to deny an import request, unless there is a clear rule in place that would prohibit that import.  They had no clear rule in place to deny the import.     

After the board voted (improperly), they then consulted with their own attorney who showed them that their "vote" was out of compliance with the rules and regulations of the organization.   The rules and regulations of the organization do NOT give directors the freedom to freely pick and choose animals they will accept or not. They MUST follow the rules in place at the time.