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Post by jamshundred on Jul 10, 2016 13:47:32 GMT
As mentioned elsewhere, ADCA has arbitrarily raised the height guidelines yet again, ( and Kirk, I am confident they did not give you a vote on it so don't tell me yet again you have a voice). 50 inches for bulls! I think cows are 46 or 48. These sizes occur in Dexters, but they should not be guidelined as normal. They occur when breeders veer away from the dwarf genetics that established the breed and they occur, on occasion, when two dwarf cattle create a non-dwarf. My opinion is that the breed guideline or standards should NOT have a height requirement. It should have the original WEIGHT requirement. This solves most size issues. When the guideline quotes and permits larger heights they are trending the breed larger. That will cost us the breed. You can hype the personality and the forage conversion and the other DWARF traits that kept this breed viable through more than a century, but unless you keep the DWARF genetics in the breed. . . .. you lose the traits that made Dexters such a viable and valuable commodity. One cannot deny that probably 75% of the appeal of Dexters were the small size and personality, and the other dwarf traits were a bonus most gave little thought or attention during modern decades. With the campaign against the foundation genetics the animals that most people see and are hyped as Dexters are growing to the size of Jersey and Guernsey cattle, but they do not produce commercially. . . . so in the long run would a homesteader pay a more reasonable price for one of those for their milk cow when there are no longer small producers for dairy that gobble up weeds and thrive as if on blue grass? . . . . or would the savvy and budget conscious buyer chose an Angus or Angus cross when the size factor is neglible, yet the commercial profit 50-70 cents a pound more than the faux Dexter? The danger of removing the downsizing genetics of the dwarf which also preserves the dwarf traits and smaller size is the LOSS of the market. Dexters. . . . . . .a real Dexter. . . . . can never move into the commercial cattle circles. They must be accepted, preserved, and promoted as a niche heritage breed. . . . whatever their height. It is the dwarf traits, whether the animal is small, medium, or large that define the breed and have kept it valuable for small farmers. Miniaturizing them does NOT retain those characteristics. Less emphasis on the size because retaining the dwarf will resolve that in the general population. It will be as it always has been. . . . .very small. . . . . . small. . . . . . .medium. . . . . . . large.. . . . . .extra large. Those that do not perform to the brochure will usually end up culled. (Or perhaps dead because they will not have the celebrated immune system of the dwarf cattle.  ) Immune system. That's a topic that never gets discussed even though the instances of sick cows and calves and dead cows and calves seems to be trying to catch up to the problems of other breeds. When I had Jersey cows. . . . . I had to deal with mastitis and milk fever and on two occasions a prolapsed uterous. I have never had a dwarf Dexter, or a non-dwarf ( though I know of two cases) that has ever had mastitis or milk fever nor a prolapsed uterous. Today's breeders simply do not understand the extraordinary hardiness of the dwarf cattle. It is good that those of us who have stood up for the dwarf cattle are getting the word out. . . .. .it will likely save the breed in the long run. Judy |
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Post by teatpuller11 on Jul 10, 2016 17:06:49 GMT
Judy, are the leaderships of the various Dexter assns. aware of your information about hardiness, personality and immune systems found only in the original dwarf selection? Why not? I gather you have done a lot of research. Are they ignoring this, or are they just unaware of it?
From my readings, though, I do question your opinion about height. If we are selecting for dwarfism, that's one trait. Why not select for size, just another trait, so that all Dexters will be small--or smaller? I do agree that raising the height standard to match what we have is not the way to go. If Dexters are some form of old Kerry originally, and old Kerries were a small breed, then it follows (I think) that Dexters shouldn't be that tall? Unless of course there was lots of non-Dexter genetics added before the American foundation animals arrived here.
I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. |
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 10, 2016 18:31:38 GMT
Well I would certainly hope they had some knowledge of history and traits of the breed, but it is my experience that most of the members of leadership have little or none, heck, many of them jump into these positions to salve their egos when they have little experience or knowledge of Dexters. You have a President and some board members right now that have barely lost their Dexter baby teeth (still newbies) with little knowledge or concern for the preservation of a unique breed with unique traits. Just trending the breed to 50 inches as OK shows their lack of knowledge, and any foresight to the future devastation they invite.
Immune systems? hardiness? It is a trait of the breed that has been celebrated in brochures, pamplets, and articles through the decades. When Hoof and Mouth created burning mounds of thousands and thousands of destroyed cattle in England, how many Dexters were in the ashes?
Any time breeders select and breed small animals for shorter height they are "breeding down" and creating miniatures. Dexter cattle are not a miniature breed. They are a dward breed, and with dwarf genes there will be a variance in size between dwarf and non-dwarf. Don't you suppose that is why the earlier breed standards defined weight and not height? The weight restrictions determined size as did the dwarf genetics. Further more, the miniaturized cattle do NOT retain the forage conversion traits of the Dexter dwarf.
If Kirk would take a miniature from his herd and take a dwarf of the same size and place them on limited forage for a month and take beforeand after photos, he would then get the picture!
Judy
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Post by cascade on Jul 11, 2016 5:18:19 GMT
The dexter world is so full of myths.... it's a good thing I'm here to straighten them out.
1. Dexters indeed started as a miniaturized breed... they started as miniature Kerry cattle.
2. How do you create a miniature version of an existing breed? You simply go into the existing breed, select the shortest animals among them and isolate them from the regular breed. Presto! You've got a new miniature breed.
3. In the late 1800's, Kerry Cattle had a range of sizes and size genetics within them like all breeds do. The smallest among them were called "Smaller Kerry".... but in the local Irish dialect, the word for "smaller" was "dexter"... so they were known as Dexter-Kerry. The founders of the Kerry and Dexter-Kerry registries, created two isolated breeds out of one single land-race breed. They created the regular Kerry breed and they created the Dexter-Kerry breed (Miniature Kerry).
4. The founding Dexter-Kerry breeders selected animals for their shorter heights (some had chondro, while many were naturally short), the taller animals were put in the regular Kerry registry.
5. Shorter cattle breeds are usually more efficient at producing beef, just like shorter men can often put on muscle and weight easier than tall lanky men.
6. We Dexter breeders of today like to brag that our breed isn't a miniature breed like mini-herefords, but our breed did start as a miniature breed in the late 1800's. Dexters were one of the first miniaturized breeds... but that was so long ago that we no longer think of Dexters simply as miniature Kerry cattle, and we divorced the name of Dexters from Kerry cattle (we stopped calling them Dexter-Kerry a long time ago and we made completely separate breed registries).
7. Because the miniaturization process took place so long ago, we've mostly forgotten about it.
8. Like most shorter animals (and most shorter people), the shorter animals on my farm (including pigs, sheep, chickens and Dexters) all put on weight very easily with no supplements, while the long leggy animals have a harder time keeping in condition. That's why I want an entire herd of short-legged (non-chondro) dexters and don't want any at all with long legs.... (same with pigs and sheep.... I hate leggy hogs and leggy sheep)
9. My herd is stunningly healthy and thick with no vaccinations (except the required brucelosis shot for females), no deworming, no pesticides, no antibiotics, no shelter except trees.
10 You don't need a lethal defect gene to shorten the legs of animals, and chondro does a very bad job of it, since it only works 50% of the time.
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Post by cascade on Jul 11, 2016 5:51:49 GMT
The ADCA did NOT raise the height guidelines... In fact, if anything, they lowered them.
Here's the new words:
Cows: Typical range in height is 34 - 46 inches, with a majority in the range of 36-42 inches, measured at the hip.
Bulls: Typical range in height is 36 - 50 inches, with a majority in the range of 38-44 inches, measured at the hip.
breeding programs that consistently push animals to extremes in either size direction are not encouraged.
The previous version said the guideline for bulls was 38-44 inches at age 3 and cows were 36-42 inches at age 3
Now they are saying that the normal range for bulls should be 38 inches to 44 inches in older age and cows 36-42 inches in older age. That's shorter than before because they removed the "age 3" wording.
Further, in the past they said nothing at all about discouraging breeding animals outside the normal range. Now they are saying in writing that breeding programs that push animals to extremes in either direction are not encouraged.
If most bulls are supposed to be 38" - 44" in older age, that means that a 47+ inch bull would certainly be extreme and is NOT encouraged. In the past, they said nothing about enforcing the guidelines in any way... Now they have wording saying that ignoring the guidelines is NOT encouraged.
PS. I'm thrilled that they got rid of that dumb old language that said dexters come in two types... short legs and long legs..... that was dumb.
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Post by cascade on Jul 11, 2016 6:07:14 GMT
Did you notice this: " their size of bone, depth of body, and shortness of leg should compose a consistently uniform harmony
throughout the animal’s body. A Dexter should look balanced and smoothly blended with proportions that result in a uniform,
harmonious, graceful animal. Characteristics that determine the feeding ability, reproductive capacity, health, vigor and
longevity should be apparent" I love that they removed the "long-legged" wording and and are now saying that ALL dexters should have shorter legs. That's consistent with the 1900 breed standard that says ALL dexters should have shorter legs. Also note that they say LONGEVITY should be apparent. Any early arthritis is anti-longevity. I'm loving the new breed guidelines www.dextercattle.org/pdf/new/Breed%20Guidelines%20061616-3.pdf |
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 11, 2016 13:26:10 GMT
Well Kirk I finally get a chance to congratulate you on stating it correctly. ADCA . . . . has. . . . ... posted new language and guidelines for the NEW BREED of cattle they register. ( I call them Chestersons). The members who are registering the 10% that descend from the pre-1985 Dexter bloodlines should voice their concern with ADCA and RUN, not walk, with the funds they are providing ADCA to constantly and consistently promote the NEW BREED, while ignoring ( nay . . . dissing) the breeders and the preservation effort to preserve the foundation lines and the breeders who are preserving them.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Jul 11, 2016 15:07:28 GMT
The newly updated BREED GUIDELINES are now a lot closer to the 1900 Breed Standard.
Both say all dexters should have shorter legs.
Both make no reference to a "Long-Legged type".
Both say Dexters must be compact.
The newly updated breed guidelines say that most Dexter females should not exceed 42 inches in old age and most bulls should not exceed 44 inches in old age. That's right in line with the size of dexters suggested by the 1900 Breed Standard.
Yes, the newly updated breed guidelines document the fact that some dexters are too big (up to 50 inches in old age), but the newly updated guidelines also tell us to select away from those too-large animals.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2016 15:22:12 GMT
Over all I dont see height as being that big of a current issue in the Dexter breed. If anything I would say some select for to short of a non dwarf. Of course this is coming from some one who always seems to have the shortest animals at shows but I am not so sure that shows are a good representation of the current breed. Beef is an issue. That is what I see everyone selecting for bigger beef over all else. What happened to those little old dairy cows with big udders. I mean Dexter udders not the Jersey looking udders I keep seeing.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jul 11, 2016 16:33:52 GMT
Kirk, I'm happy you like the new guidelines. Did you look closely at them?
"Both carriers and non-carriers are of equal merit"
So....shut up.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jul 11, 2016 16:44:28 GMT
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Post by cascade on Jul 11, 2016 20:50:32 GMT
I agree, True-Shorts (non-Chondro) can do everything that a Chondro-short can do..... so they are equal, nothing special about chondro's. So no point in having chondro's, since it's a pain in the neck to manage their lethal genes.
Polled and Horned and Dehorned are also equal, but it seems silly to have horns if you just cut them off.
Dexters are supposed to be easy and simple to raise. Polled dexters are much easier and simpler than dehorning.... True-Shorts (tested free of known lethal genes) are much easier and simpler than chondro-shorts.
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Post by cascade on Jul 11, 2016 21:19:01 GMT
Inbreeding depression only occurs if you aren't doing a good job on selection. If you randomly mate poorly selected close relatives over and over, you can encounter inbreeding depression and poor results. But if you do a great job of selection, you can get superstar animals from close relative breeding. If you're not using inbreeding/linebreeding as one of your breeding tools, you won't make any progress in creating a superior line of cattle. Here's an excellent article on the using linebreeding/inbreeding to create highly superior cattle www.witherspoonsherefords.com/WNHWEB11.HTMHere's a heavily linebred son of Belle Fourche Frasier (perfect health, perfect compact size, perfect behavior, perfect fertility, tested free of known lethal genes)  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 13:55:13 GMT
"creating a superior line of cattle." You created something alright but I would not call it a Dexter. Perhaps more along the lines of a red wattle hog.  |
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Post by cascade on Jul 12, 2016 20:04:53 GMT
Perhaps you haven't read Professor Low's first description of the Dexter type from the 1840's
"a remarkable roundness of form and shortness of legs"
He didn't mention horns
The bull above fits Professor Low's description perfectly.
Concerning color, the first breed standard says Dexters come in two colors... red or black.
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Post by chautauqua on Jul 12, 2016 20:21:43 GMT
He don't bother to mention horns because they were a given. I've seen early accounts that mention the very, very, few breeds that did not have horns at that time. It was a novelty for British Isle cattle to be polled. You know it too.
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Post by chautauqua on Jul 12, 2016 22:37:42 GMT
"He doesn't." Bugs me when it is improper.
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Post by cascade on Jul 13, 2016 4:53:35 GMT
Professor Low didn't remark about Dexter horns because there's nothing particularly remarkable about them... They aren't the key trait that defines dexters... If he had written about longhorn cattle, I'm sure he would have said something about the horns. Did you know that Ireland's oldest breed of cattle is the polled Irish Moiled Cow? They are an ancient 100% naturally polled Irish breed. The term "Moiled" refers to the shape of the top of the head and is equivalent to the word "Polled" www.irishmoiledcattlesociety.com/the-breed.htmlwww.irishmoiledcattlesociety.com/breed_history.htmlThey come in various degrees of spotting and are dual purpose Ireland may have had polled cattle longer than they've had horned cattle. It's VERY likely and almost certain that many old traditional dexters have some Irish Moiled polled ancestors.... In fact the description of some of the original founding Dexters have Irish Moiled coloration (red with lots of white). |
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Post by bruff64 on Jul 13, 2016 8:52:17 GMT
Kerry is the oldest Irish breed
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 13, 2016 13:53:19 GMT
NO. . . they are not. . . . and this is where the lack of knowledge and experience of ADCA leadership is especially noticeable although the lack of leadership, knowledge and experience is evenly distributed in most things Dexter ! !
Overall, the dwarf animal is the superior animal . . . . . for it is from the dwarf cattle the treasured Dexter traits descend.
You are "talking the talk" without "walking the walk".
1. Dexter cattle possess an ability to convert the most minimal of forage. . . both in quantity and quality, maintain conditioning, and even life while non-carriers turn into bones for carrion. This is one of the foremost traits of the dwarf Dexter
breed.
2. Personality. Though the difference is slight. ... it is still there. Any animal, with handling and attention can become very tame and even pet quality, ( with a caveat to beware of some breeds, bloodlines, and sex), but the dwarf Dexter has a
similar "interactive gene", ( I can make up science too Kirk. . .lol), that gives them a dog-like affection and need for attention from their owners. You can raise a dwarf and a non-dwarf in the exact same conditions. . . . as in. . . place
them in a grass field and ignore them for a couple of years. With attention the dwarf with come around and soon be your buddy. . . . . the non-dwarf will come around. . .but there is always a guarded wariness and a bit more stand-
offishness in their trust level.
3. Immune system. There is no doubt in my mind the Dexter has the most unique and hardy immune system of any breed. No one answered my earlier question about the piles of carcasses burnt in England. I've not found a single Dexter
owner with Dexters who succumbed. . . even in dire at risk circumstances. Victoria Schofield wrote a mesmerizing article about her sheep and cattle fears during this time and gave me permission to use it. It is on the DCAL.info page which is linked on the registry. Think on that. . . . . . hundreds of thousands of cattle across England slaughtered and burned and NOT a single Dexter in the ashes. I find both the carriers and non-carriers descended from carriers to be
extraordinarily hardy but even in this I believe the carriers would have some percentage higher.
4. THE HEADS are different. So different they were described and adopted as part of the first breed standard published in 1900, and likely to be found in the historical pages on this board. If not. . . I'll see that is. The dish faces and broad
foreheads are a dwarf characteristic. Also, in that earliest of breed descriptions are HORNS. Yep. . . . those horns were important both to the animal and to the breed. That hasn't changed. They are still an important breed trait.
5. MEAT - Chondro carriers will mature earlier with more marbling in the meat just on grass. I actually think the taste is different, but others say not. . . . but then again. ... .most of them are butchering modern animals not the pre many-upgrades-in-the-pedigree animals.
Kirk, "book learnin'' is never a waste but it is also never the same as "hands on". Especially in today's world of science, ( and perhaps in yesteryear as well). The race is on to research and publish and make a name and get letters after that name and to get free money. (grants). There are far too many of these published research efforts that have later been shown to be sloppy or even fraud. There is the diagnosis dujour, ( in my day it was rheumatic fever and we all had our tonsills yanked and parents of tomorrow will likely never have ear tubes in their kids for they will know it often causes more damage than good). And then there is Dexter dun, and spontaneous mutations that didn't spontaneous at all.
Judy
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Post by karenp on Jul 14, 2016 1:52:26 GMT
"creating a superior line of cattle." You created something alright but I would not call it a Dexter. Perhaps more along the lines of a red wattle hog. Can you milk this? |
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 14, 2016 16:18:00 GMT
I had some very "smart" answers . .. . . .but. . . . . . . . . You actually made me wonder if you can milk a pig! I once attempted to milk a mini donkey. I had a man show up at my door. He had a child gravely ill ( I don't remember condition) and he had been told to get donkey's milk to try and save the baby and was referred to me by my vet who he called to find donkey owners. I had a donkey with a foal, but the donkey teats were abou 3/4 inch and she was hopping around and I got a few squirts out but after a very long time of doing my best to help the man I had to admit failure. I know someone who milked a drank Camel milk in hopes of helping with cancer. Still alive. My first answers were going to be no where this level of acceptable. Perhaps I rose above it. Judy |
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Post by cascade on Jul 15, 2016 6:13:12 GMT
Pigs are hard to milk and don't give much milk at one time because they have 14 teats.... But that round and short-legged (true-short) bull above that fit Professor Low's mid-1800's description of the Dexter type perfecly, came from a mother that also perfectly fits professor Low's dexter description and she is very very easy to milk... here is that true-short, non-chondro bull again, and his true-short, non-chondro 10 year-old mother (Cascade's Shade). Both always stay fat easily on crummy hay and old dry grass and both are naturally friendly as puppies, and VERY strong immune systems and naturally parasite resistant.  |
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Post by jamshundred on Jul 15, 2016 10:48:50 GMT
Kirk, you are on the wrong side of preserving a horned and unique breed of cattle and more's the pity for your focus and dedication in preserving the remnants of the breed in their original state would have been a godsend to the preservation effort. Your herd has very nice cattle but they are not the heirloom seeds. . . . . they are hybrids.
The grass on your farm is beautiful. Looks like there has been lots of moisture in your area.
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Post by cascade on Jul 15, 2016 20:19:32 GMT
Judy, Thanks for the compliment and I do agree with you about preserving all the important heritage traits that Dexters should have (I even support the preservation of horned dexters). The ONLY effective way to preserve those important features is to have a
written list of them, and actively select for those things generation after generation after generation. Animals with your favorite pedigrees are just as likely to drift away from the traits you love as animals with pedigrees you don't prefer.... Further, animals with peidgrees that you don't love, can VERY closely match the breed traits that are important to you. Selection is everything.
I do like the idea of making the 1900 breed description more visible to people so they can use it as a guide to not stray too far.
I love the work you've done to make historical pedigrees available, it's every interesting to see, but isn't all that useful in maintaining breed characteristics, since genetic drift can change animals regardless of the pedigree.
Most of the old heritage traits that we like in heirloom varieties, came about due to the somewhat careless ways those animals were raised (rough feed, no shelter, no antibiotics, no chemical de-wormers, no pesticides, no vet work)... survival of the fittest tuned their genes to be extra strong and those strengths are critical to maintain.
Concerning heirloom vs. hybrid: The value of heirloom varieties is that they breed true for their important traits, while hybrids require complex breeding rules and special handling and don't breed true. With heirloom corn, you can just go plant a big patch of corn, and save the seed each year, and nearly 100% of the offspring will be just like the parents. But with hybrid corn, the seed will produce a mish-mash of results... often 25% one phenotype, 50% another phenotype, and 25% yet another phenotype.... Chondro breeders should recognize those numbers because Chondro's are heterozygous hybrids.... Hybrids are heterozygous for their traits and can't breed true, but heirloom varieties are mostly homozygous for their traits and can breed true.
The animals I pictured above breed true for their most important traits (compact, thickness, shortness, strong immune systems, trouble-free, FRIENDLY, etc). That makes them an heirloom variety rather than hybrid variety.
Judy, you have had a good influence on me over the years, helping to reinforce some of the important traits that would be a shame to lose in dexers. You'll never convince most red, polled, non-chondro breeders to breed black, dwarf, horned dexters, but you can influence them to select for many of the traits that you're afraid of losing. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposal. You might win 90% of the battle.
I'm actually keeping one horned girl around so I can use her to educate people that horns aren't all that scary. You might be able to convince some people to stop dehorning some that are born with horns.
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