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Post by cascade on Feb 25, 2017 21:52:08 GMT
The 1900 Breed Standard says they need to produce both beef and milk (most all breeds including Kerry cattle used to do that). But then it goes on to describe a beefy frame. It says NOTHING about a dairy frame. In fact, it describes a Devon frame. Dexters are part Devon according to the Royal Dublin Society paper written in 1908 and published in 1909. Here's a Devon bull (the females are very milky), most Devon's used to be horned. Here's the entire 1900 Dexter Breed Description... Basically it describes a miniature Devon, but also with some black genes from the Kerry influence: 1. The Dexter is essentially both a milk-producing and a beef making breed, and both these points should, in judging, be taken Into consideration. 2. Colour.--Bulls.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). A little white on organs of generation not to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description. Cows.-Whole black or whole red (the two colours being of equal merit). Black with white on the udder, or red with white on bag. The extension of the white of the udder slightly along the inside of flank or under side of the belly, or a little white on end of tail, shall not be held to disqualify an animal which answers all other essentials of this standard description. . 3. Head AND Neck.--Head short and broad, with great width between the eyes, and tapering gracefully towards muzzle, which should be large, with wide distended nostrils. Eyes bright, prominent, and of a kind and placid expression. Neck short, deep and thick, and well set into the shoulders, which, when viewed in front, should be wide, showing thickness through the heart, the breast coming well forward. Horns.-These should be short and moderately thick, springing well from the head, with an inward and slightly upward curve. 4. Body.--Shoulders of medium thickness, full and well filled in behind, hips wide, quarters thick and deep and well sprung, flat and wide across loins, well ribbed up, straight underline, udder well forward, and broad behind with well placed teats of moderate size, legs short (especially from knee to fetlock), strong, and well placed under body, which should be as close to the ground as possible. Tail well set on and level 'with back. 5. Skin.--The skin should be soft and mellow, and handle well, not too thin, hair fine, plentiful and silky. 6. Dexter Bulls should not exceed 900 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition. Dexter Cows should not exceed 800 Lbs., live weight, when in breeding condition.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 25, 2017 23:01:18 GMT
The breed standard calls for both milk-producing and beef producing. As I keep reminding you. . .. . . . . . Dexter cattle were an established dwarf beed. The dwarf cattle DO have beefy bodies. That is why although considerably smaller than most of their non-carrier counter parts. . .they produce as much or more meat. You really need to experience a few dwarf cattle in your herd. You will be a changed man.
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Post by bruff64 on Feb 25, 2017 23:03:28 GMT
It is fairly clear from the early showcase photos of Dexters to represent the best specimens of the time, that they do not look anything like the polled Red Devon beef bull you posted. In fact they look more like the dual purpose American Milking Devon which was the original and true Devon that are still dual purpose and horned. But, earlier change artists accomplished what you are working towards and upgraded to make a polled Devon beef breed. Unlike your efforts, they where clear up front and created a new organization and breed standard instead of hi-jacking an existing breed and organization. In fact if Devon was used back then, which is conjecture at best, it would have been the American Milking Devon type as the new Devon beef type was not even created yet. So posting that picture of a modern polled Devon is a disingenuous and a weak attempt to associate your new polled red Dexters with the historical rumor of the Devon connection.
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Post by bruff64 on Feb 25, 2017 23:13:07 GMT
Kirk, if you want a true short beefy type animal it already exists!! And it breeds true 100% of the time!! And is super friendly!! It is the miniature Hereford. You have been wasting your time trying to re-create something that already exists!! By the way, that is a pure bred Traditional Dexter with her.
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Post by bruff64 on Feb 25, 2017 23:31:07 GMT
And Kirk, just for reference so you have a visual understanding of a Kerry, here is Adair, a pure bred Kerry Cow. Not much to confuse there with a Dexter. And while all cattle can be turned into beef, the Kerry was certainly not a beef breed as you can see. Adair is one of my Kerrys. Misty, the Mini Hereford is one of my MHs. And the Traditional Dexter Bull is also mine. It is helpful to have all three breeds, all pure bred and DNA Tested, up close and personal every day. I have no identity issues with what pure bred cattle in their original form are. I also respect the breed standards as they were originally intended by those before me and I am unwilling to deviate from that responsibility to breed and preserve accordingly. True breeding skill is in maintaining and making improvements within the breed, which I will hopefully master by the end of my days. It will take that long. And what I leave behind for the next generation will be continuation of a link to the past. That is what a steward is. If you want to make a new breed, have at it. Nothing wrong at all with that. Just be honest and up front about it. The modern polled Dexter project would never have had all this controversy if there was not all the dishonesty and slight of hand. Say it like it is. Your opinion is valid in your circles. You have a modern version of a beefy Dexter. Run with it and leave the Traditional folks in peace. Go your way, they will go theirs. But if you keep claiming that the new version is really the old original then you will continue to carry a ball and chain. Cut the link.
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Post by cascade on Feb 26, 2017 22:10:57 GMT
Here's a picture of a very beefy 1900 Devon bull in Ireland, published in the 1908 Wilson paper describing how Dexters started as crossbreeds especially with Devon's.
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Post by bruff64 on Feb 26, 2017 23:38:47 GMT
Again, the Devon cross theory was just that. There is no historical evidence that there was a singular incidence or wide spread practice of the use of Devon in the development of Dexters. In fact there is no evidence that contradicts the extensive historical literature that points to selection within the Kerry as the origin of Dexters. As far as that 1900 Devon, looks like a good thing he was not used in any crosses.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 26, 2017 23:43:07 GMT
It really bugs the hell out of you that you paid big bucks for illegitimate imposters with phoney pedigrees doesn't it?
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 26, 2017 23:54:05 GMT
As me old mum used to say....."you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".
One of the valued traits of the dwarf cattle was the excellent crosses the provided owners of other breeds. Improved them for the purpose intended.
The problem with the polled grade descendents is that overall they are not improvements. They do not look like Dexters, they do not eat like Dexters, they do not poop like Dexters, they do not grow horns like Dexters.
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Post by cascade on Feb 27, 2017 5:30:41 GMT
Professor James Wilson of the Royal College of Agricultural Science in Dublin, wrote in 1908:
"While the slender black Kerry was one of the races which produced the Dexter, the other was a stout-bodied, short-legged animal whose colour was red, and that such an animal was imported into Kerry, there is sufficient evidence"
"Wakefeild (1812) states: In the south (of Ireland) I met with some persons who had imported Devon Cattle. Mr. Hyde and others possess considerable numbers of them.... From what I have seen of this stock in Devonshire, I am inclined to think that they are the best cattle known, and had I anything to do with the mountain estates in the south of Ireland, I should strongly recommend them for general use"
"In the 18th century, many English settlers came to Kerry and brought red cattle with them"
"Dingle Harbour in Kerry, was known as 'Coon edaf dearg' which in Irish means 'Red OX Haven"
"The probability that Dexter Cattle are descended from black Kerries and red cattle of the Devon type is very high and if further proof were wanted, it can be found by setting a red Dexter side by side with a red Devon. The only difference is that the Devon is slightly larger"
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 27, 2017 13:12:51 GMT
Is Wilson the first person who has attempted to rewrite established history? No. You work at it on a regular basis. Professor Low traveled the high lands and lowlands recording his personal observations. SIXTY-PLUS years later another writer presents a hypothesis of his opinion of history. Today, there are competing scientific research articles which have alternate results as to historical development.
The truth is......there is no single truth. All breeds have mixed heritage until the era when registries and herd books were established and it was then incumbent on the owners to protect and preserve the breeds they admired and chose to pursue. The one consistent factor for change through the ages has been the quest for gain.
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Post by cascade on Feb 27, 2017 19:18:17 GMT
If we make a list of actual traits that are important for us all to preserve in Dexters, we would probably all agree on most all of them:
Compact Friendly Shorter legs Thick builds Multi-purpose Natural Disease resistance Natural Parasite resistance Natural bloat resistance Good efficient foragers Super easy calving Super friendly bulls Tender tasty beef Rich milk Long-lived Productive and extremely hardy Horns if you like them, hornless if not
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Post by Donlin Stud on Mar 15, 2017 21:35:23 GMT
As we all know, Saltaire Platinum's paper records show no grading or outcrossing to other breeds of cattle in his ancestry, and he was DNA verified as a purebred Dexter by DNA tests from UC Davis (Judy's favorite lab). The last time I mentioned such a test from UCD I was told that it was not available and there were slim chances of one being available in the near future The Dexter breed has yet to be genetically profiled. The 11 - 13 markers utilised for parent verification purposes are nowhere near enough to make such a determination as to breed purity. (sorry if anyone else has made a similar post - I didnt read all the posts) I'll contact UCD now and see if this type of 'testing/assessment' is available Our stud is very much interested in this type of analysis (any analysis of the Dexter breed) and have provided UCD with an open permission to include all our Dexters in any study they wish. We have provided our parent verification reports to UCD to include in our files. We currently have a listing of 68 reports with UCD Actually as I type this - Judy if providing our reports for inclusion in any research / analysis may help, we are more than happy to provide them to you with also open permission.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Mar 16, 2017 0:11:19 GMT
And to add.......
I would put more belief into these results if:
1. SP was DNA parent verified (PV), and 2. SP had DNA PV of the immediate three maternal and paternal generations
Who is to say that the DNA provided was not that of a half-brother, a first cousin or a couple generational inbred male? Im not saying it was – but it would be hard to prove it wasn’t.
20 markers also is not enough for me for results to be conclusive and without doubt. Our inbreeding / very closely linebreeding program is showing a strong concentration of same markers in just a few generations.
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Post by cascade on Mar 16, 2017 6:15:44 GMT
The PHD experts at UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Lab (The lab that Judy swears by) assure us that the results are accurate.
Saltaire Platinum is the ONLY Dexter proven to be pure via DNA testing.
Do you have any proof of purity from the early 1990's Dexters on YOUR pedigrees?
Funny how you so-called purists have zero proof of the purity of your own animals, yet you question Saltaire Platinum that has purity proof from one of the best genetics labs on the planet.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Mar 16, 2017 22:44:43 GMT
Hi Cascade
I am not questioning the reported results from UCD, what you missed was the how do we know the DNA provided to UCD was that of SP without background DNA information to corroborate this? People DO go to extraordinary lengths where there is reputation and pedigrees to uphold in any breed
Your remark about the proof of 'purity' of early DNA results in my (or Australian) Dexters pedigrees is a remark that could only come from someone trying to offset the fact that my doubts have merit.
I will answer it anyways:
Proof of Purity of 1990’s Australian DNA results ... for those animals on the ground – vets were required to take blood samples for DNA profiling and submit the paperwork to the labs.
Since Australia's first cattle-tracing system was introduced in the 1960s, by the 1990’s it would have been virtually impossible to claim a sample was not from the animal as stated as the tracer data would have had to be included on such paperwork submitted by the vet to the lab.
For Imports (animal, semen, embryos) it would have been impossible due to Australia’s strict importations and quarantine laws (and paperwork) in combination with the Cattle-tracing scheme.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Mar 16, 2017 22:59:05 GMT
Reply from UCD:
From: Stefanie Oppenheim Date: 17 March 2017 at 6:16:50 am AEDT To: Subject: breed purity testing Hello Donna,
The Cattle Breed Assignment testing that VGL currently performs is designed to estimate the probability of genetic contribution from each of the following reference breeds. NOTE: Percentage of breed(s) in the genetic makeup of the animal cannot be determined using this test.
Angus Hereford Maine Anjou Charolais Limousin Simmental British White Dexter Texas Longhorn Shorthorn Gelbvieh Watusi Bos indicus (Nelore and Gir) Friesian Jersey
The fee for breed assignment testing is $120 per sample (includes genotyping and breed analysis). Hair, blood, or semen samples can be sent for testing. Payment made by Credit card, checks or money orders made out to UC Regents are accepted. Should you decide to submit a sample(s) for this DNA testing, please contact VGL Customer Service by email or phone +1-530-752-2211 so the appropriate submission form and instructions can be sent.
Thank you, Stefanie
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Stefanie Oppenheim, PhD Veterinary Genetics Lab University of Calif, Davis tel: 530-754-5684 fax: 530-752-3556
The sentence: "estimate the probability of genetic contribution" Tells me results from this test cannot be deemed conclusive beyond reasonable doubt The testing process and markers are still new and only over time can it become more conclusive.
I don’t have a spare US$120 to have our 3th generation female grade up from a Jersey nor her 4th generation daughter nor the daughter’s male offspring who is eligible to be registered under current grade up requirements to see how “estimate the probability of genetic contribution” may be. Would be nice to know while the test is in its early stages
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Post by cascade on Mar 18, 2017 6:46:54 GMT
Donlin,
What is the name of your Dexter that you consider to be most "pure" and what proof (conclusive beyond a reasonable doubt) do you have of its purity?
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 19, 2017 13:12:16 GMT
Kirk, why are you raising a breed for which you have so much obvious distain?
All other breeds revel in preserving and protecting their stock whose pedigrees display breed purity. I realize your attitude is "trickle-down" from leadership of Dexter breed associations who have not supported or even fought preservation, (unlike other heritage breed groups) yet you seem particularly focused on the narrative, "if I cannot have it, no one can". i do not hold you responsible for the situation in which you find yourself, but you should be demanding accountability for those who did and not the breed that was victimized.
judy
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Post by Donlin Stud on Mar 20, 2017 1:59:26 GMT
Judy's favorite lab says Platinum is purebred. Cascade stop trying to create a fog screen for your own advantage UCD did not say that at all. What I will quote UCD regarding the 'purity test': " The Cattle Breed Assignment testing that VGL currently performs is designed to estimate the probability of genetic contribution from each of the following reference breeds." The key words you are ignoring are estimate the probability of genetic contribution
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Post by Donlin Stud on Mar 20, 2017 2:40:58 GMT
Donlin, What is the name of your Dexter that you consider to be most "pure" and what proof (conclusive beyond a reasonable doubt) do you have of its purity? Cascade. Im not sure what your question is asking for? I need a reference as to what it is you mean by pure? - The offspring of animals belonging to the same breed are considered purebred.
- When animals of different breeds are mated, they produce crossbreeds of differing degrees of breed purity.
- Outstanding crossbreeds of the fourth or fifth generation are considered purebreds.
You are the one stating as a fact that SP is pure based on a DNA test that even the lab who designed it will clearly state the test is: " designed to estimate the probability of genetic contribution from each of the following reference breeds." And lets be clear about a few things: The reference breeds are NOT the only available breed of cattle that are in the UK. The reference breeds are NOT the only Polled breeds of cattle in the UK. And since - SP is NOT DNA parent verified.
- His sire is NOT DNA parent verified
- His dam is NOT DNA parent verified
There is no baseline or reference points Quoting from a very well known website to all here (Legacy's): " Parentage testing in cattle began in the 1950's at UC-Davis in California, and the science was well established by 1984" So why wasnt such a 'miraculous mutation' proven beyond reasonable doubt with the available DNA testing especially since it occurred coincidentally with the world's push for Polled cattle to increase stocking densities? Someone missed out out on making a fortune from a very well timed mutation .
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Post by cascade on Mar 20, 2017 6:23:37 GMT
Donlin,
Saltaire Platinum has been proven to be pure Dexter by our best genetics experts.
You missed the fact that they conducted 3 separate tests.
1. They compared him to pure Dexters and found he matched them VERY well
2. They looked for other breeds and found none
3. They evaluated his Y chromosome and found it to be solidly Dexter
He was better than parentage tested... They compared his genetic markers to a list of pure Dexters and he matched very well. They didn't even need to compare him to other breeds.
What evidence do you have that any of YOUR Dexters are pure Dexter? Have you had a DNA analysis performed on them? Until then, we have to assume that YOUR Dexters are less pure than Saltaire Platinum who has been tested as pure by DNA experts.
PS. It's amusing that you would trust a DNA parentage test, when you don't trust this breed analysis test. It shows your extreme bias.
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Post by lonecowhand on Mar 21, 2017 16:43:26 GMT
Cascade, your apparent problem is that you don't understand the motivation of folks on this board. They aren't here to win an argument , left to ourselves we don't argue. We encourage,congratulate, or share information and support.
When someone like Donna does a good deed, like she's doing, it is not for gain. Donna doesn't need to spend money testing for something which will not benefit her, there is little likelihood of another offspring from either of these old girls she's to be hosting. She's doing a favor. Their status in all areas is immaterial.
Part of what you fail to understand is, that it is not a mystery to us what comprises a Dexter , only to you. Your incessant lists and continuous arguing are not going to change the opinion held by most here , that Saltaire Platinum, a grade bull, has diluted the gene pool with outside blood, and in order to have the closest thing to the Dexter of old, those lines are best avoided.
So unless you just enjoy typing, give it up. We've heard all your opinions. Enjoy the animals you have, or sell them and get into a breed you appreciate.
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Post by cascade on Mar 25, 2017 5:58:04 GMT
Lonecowhand, you've told us you've never raised any dexters and your only experience with them is at a petting zoo, so I don't think you know anything about Dexters at all.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 25, 2017 11:38:12 GMT
Lonecowhand, you've told us you've never raised any dexters and your only experience with them is at a petting zoo, so I don't think you know anything about Dexters at all. Using that logic, finally you acknowledge that since you've never raised Dexters with chondrodysplasia, you don't know anything about them. I have over 70 of them and a decade of experience with them, including some carriers 15 years old, so you should defer to my experience. No point in continuing on your obsession. What are you going to do with all the extra time in your day Kirk?
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Post by cascade on Mar 25, 2017 13:17:50 GMT
I've never purposefully inflicted a lethal genetic disease gene like Chondrodysplasia or PHA on any livestock, and our animals test free of those lethal deformity genes.
But I've raised lots of compact Dexters with shorter legs and compact builds that meet the original 1900 Dexter Breed standard. You don't need to infect livestock with lethal genetic diseases to have short, friendly, healthy animals.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 26, 2017 5:07:28 GMT
Chondro Dexters are sooooooooo HAPPY! And often impish and mischievous as well. You really, truly, have no idea what you are missing! Do you ever stop and wonder at the passion so many of us have in particular for the dwarf cattle? The reasons are multiple. You do not know what you are missing. And they fare as well, and in many cases better than their non-dwarf counter parts. More than anything. . . . . you are missing they each experience the gift of life.
Judy
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Post by lonecowhand on Mar 27, 2017 15:55:08 GMT
I don't have to own a Rhinoceros to understand their value and place in the greater scheme of things, either, or to know something about them, or to be an advocate for their preservation. If I did intend to raise some, I would do my research, and LISTEN to those who do raise them successfully.
I know a frustrated con-man and a bull sh--ter when I see one, however.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Mar 30, 2017 1:50:15 GMT
Judy, could you please tell me where I can find the information that says Dexters were selected for dwarfism? I didn't realize that in the mid-1800s people knew about dwarfism, I thought Dexters were selected for certain traits, and without realizing it, people selected small beefy animals AND animals that later proved to have a dwarf gene. I'm sure I've read somewhere it was expected to breed two dexters together and end up with 100% dexters, and the tall ones and the aborted ones would disappear. Hasn't the English breeder Diana Smith posted on the English site that she took over the herd of an old breeder who eventually died still believing she could get small, beefy dexters eventually if she just kept breeding shortlegs to shortlegs.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 30, 2017 11:19:52 GMT
Judy, could you please tell me where I can find the information that says Dexters were selected for dwarfism? I didn't realize that in the mid-1800s people knew about dwarfism, I thought Dexters were selected for certain traits, and without realizing it, people selected small beefy animals AND animals that later proved to have a dwarf gene. I'm sure I've read somewhere it was expected to breed two dexters together and end up with 100% dexters, and the tall ones and the aborted ones would disappear. Hasn't the English breeder Diana Smith posted on the English site that she took over the herd of an old breeder who eventually died still believing she could get small, beefy dexters eventually if she just kept breeding shortlegs to shortlegs. I'm not Judy, but I think I can partially answer that question, given that I have a very large herd of tested dwarf Dexters. You actually seem to know a lot about the history of Dexters too. I'm sure that Cascade and I both have more than 50 Dexters. I have a lot of dwarf Dexters, but I still have some foundation cows that are non-carriers. Since he's getting 100% naturally short Dexters, perhaps each of us could post one photo per day of a different Dexter, next to a person or next to a reference point like a 4 foot tall fence, until we hit 50 each, and others could comment on which Dexter is shorter, AND more beefy, and at the end see who of us has a higher vote total. This would simulate what the folks in the mid 1800's would have based their selection criteria on. The sample size would be large and provide a pretty good result because neither of us would be able to cherry pick just a few of our Dexters and represent them as being exactly what our entire herd of 50 plus Dexters is like. We could even include calves that are born this year, maybe as a separate study, since selection is often made at a young age.
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