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Post by jamshundred on Nov 30, 2017 14:39:39 GMT
The Legacy Breeders newsletter published an article on "how to read a bull" in their current issue, and right on the heels of that, I read this article online. It gave me chills. I am truly concerned about the issue of bulls in the Dexter breed. I have voiced this many times in the past. The Dexter breed still markets bulls as docile, many breeders have "pet" bulls, many breeders seem to what to be part of the "club" of having "sweet" bulls that they can pet and rub and brag about, and yet there IS absolute documentation of numerous bulls in this breed that have been problematic for their owners, with more reports, far too often on social media of owners who say they are sending males to the butcher for bad behavior. PLEASE . . . . .. . read this article! PLEASE. . . . . there are far too many problems documented in one particular bloodline to be ignored. We need to be discussing this with owners and educating them to be aware and vigilant of warning signs in particular and bull tendencies in general ! www.farmanddairy.com/news/that-one-day/294910.html |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 17:37:06 GMT
a couple of stand out things from that article. When she said that she reared him from birth I thought yep its a bottle bull and that was confirmed later in the article. She is said to have been experienced? Why would she run from a bull? Unless you are standing right next to a fence you cant get away from a bull and they will chase for sure if you run. I see the picture down below showing her petting him on the forehead?
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Post by karenp on Dec 1, 2017 12:24:19 GMT
a couple of stand out things from that article. When she said that she reared him from birth I thought yep its a bottle bull and that was confirmed later in the article. She is said to have been experienced? Why would she run from a bull? Unless you are standing right next to a fence you cant get away from a bull and they will chase for sure if you run. I see the picture down below showing her petting him on the forehead? While I question her knowledge, I think the instinct to run is stronger than common sense in some people. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 21:46:28 GMT
Gene,
I dont think it is likely just one gene probably a complex set of genes working together.
I would also wonder since it is more of an issue in dairy animals if it is hormonal. Are the same hormones that are breed for to make the females produce more milk also causing the bulls to be violent.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Dec 2, 2017 16:39:44 GMT
Gene, I've heard about traditional Dexter bulls going nutso, too. How do you account for that?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 2, 2017 20:37:38 GMT
I hate to say it but the craziest bull calf we've ever had here was from Traditional lines and short legged. He would charge and snarl and growl at you, at 6 months of age. I have no doubt had we left him intact he would have hurt somebody. On the other side, we have a modern horned bull, CJS Timber, long legged, and his pedigree is loaded with Lucifer. I can point and tell him to "go home" if he happens to get out of a pasture and he will turn and "go home" to his pasture.
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 17, 2017 18:50:15 GMT
There are often times I shake my head in udder confusion over this issue. Often. Because. . .. I KNOW it's a real issue. I've had stories told to me, I've witnessed the behavior of two loco bulls myself , and I've been charged by one who barely missed me but did catch me on the arm as I threw it out to ward him off as I climbed a feed cart!
I don't bring up this issue lightly, nor for any political, personal, or vindictive reason. I bring it up because I am genuinely concerned that someone is going to be hurt. Sandy Thomas is lucky she was just treed. The vet in PA who was gotten down in a corner and saved by the owner was lucky he was not dreadfully injured. The ADCA director from Virginia who was charged and hit in the leg was fortunate not to have been more seriously injured. The farm which hosts disabled/autistic children for farm visits was fortunate not to have had something happen to one of them, mostly because they didn't like the bull and kept him out at pasture waiting his pick-up, and personally, *I* am lucky I was close enough to that feed cart that I was able to jump on it. Were I in the open I do not see how I could possibly have escaped being hospitalized. And then there are the stories of various occasions of property damage. I've never had a bull go loco and start destroying property as was reported of Lucifer at the holding facility, (when he was shot dead), nor as Mr. Weber reported to me about the reason he sold his Lucifer descendant who he said went berserk and starting "tearing up the place".
I watch closely on social media when I see people inquire about their bull's behavior or make posts about "aggressive" bulls. I carefully consider the descriptions for I realize those not experienced can misjudge or overstate normal behavior, and it I find their descriptions troubling and with merit, I go and look up the pedigrees. With the exception of ONE singular case, they have all been down from the Lucifer line. There IS something definitely aggressive in many bulls from this line.
I get downright damned angry when I see it being denied, or when I see a comment from a breeder who almost uses this line exclusively that " this comes up about this time every year" in a dismissive manner as if it is being said for some ulterior motive. This person, in particular, who constantly downplays any consideration of aggression connected to Lucifer. ( not you Hans - but I think you may also come-to-meeting one of these days). has influence in this breed. He is wrong. I know he is wrong. I often wonder, having the information that has been shared with me, or shared with others, how it can possibly be that a breeder using animals solely from this line could possibly escape having this crop up.
Somewhere around 2002-03 give or take a year, I sold a person locally a bull which came from a cow I purchased. I didn't like the bull's appearance. ( Long legged for one thing and taller than I like). I also sold him a cow which was the foundation of his Dexter herd. That bull had Lucifer as a gr-gr grandsire on 3 lines of four and a gr-gr-gr on the fourth line. He became like a pet to the owner. The bull still lives and sometimes breeds on this owner's farm. He is as docile as can be. One of his son's became a herd sire to a large Dexter herd in Va. A couple years after selling him I watched the breeder walk into a pen where he was eating hay and begin rubbing his back. However, it was a grandson of this bull that went after me! And it was a gr-grandson of this bull that attacked the ADCA Director. But it was a different descending line that produced the loco bull in Virginia, and a different descending line that produced Sandy Thomas' bull. I get so frustrated! I have never said that all descendants are problematic. I am as honest and forthright about those who are not as I am about those which are. It is just that the ones that are problematic are too great in number for a breed that promotes docile and even "pet" bulls for breeders, owners, and associations to stick their heads in the sand on this issue.
This imported Lucifer line HAS an inordinate number of reports of aggressive (and in the extreme), "loco" bulls. There is no question of this. Yet there are those who keep trying to discourage discussion or make those of us who DO know of what we speak suggestively-shamed to shush us from commenting. Perhaps the retribution will be that it is they who become seriously injured by one of these bulls rather than an innocent who has no knowledge at all to take care and be wary.
Judy
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Post by silvermapledexters on Dec 20, 2017 2:06:04 GMT
 Merry Christmas! All the best to you and your family for a joyous Noel and a wonderful New Year from Silver Maple Dexters and the Chambers Family! Merry Christmas |
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Post by cascade on Jan 9, 2018 4:38:13 GMT
Since 70% of Dexters have Lucifer of Knotting on their pedigrees, you would expect that you're going to find Lucifer of Knotting on 70% of any particular sort of Dexter pedigrees. .
70% of the friendliest Dexters have Lucifer of Knotting on their pedigrees.
70% of the prettiest Dexters have Lucifer of Knotting on their pedigrees.
70% of the safest bulls have Lucifer of Knotting on their pedigrees.
70% of show winners have Lucifer of Knotting on their pedigrees
70% of Dexters whose names start with a letter "A" have Lucifer of Knotting on their pedigrees.
70% of Dexters whose names start with a letter "Z" have Lucifer of Knotting on their pedigrees.
70% of the Dexters who sneezed on Tuesday have Lucifer of Knotting on the pedigree.
Finding Lucifer of Knotting on the pedigrees of a large majority of any sort of Dexter is pretty much expected.
By the way, over 98% of Dexters have Limbury Fanny on their pedigrees many times, so 98% of any poor-behaving Dexters likely have Limbury Fanny on their pedigrees many times. Does this mean that Limbury Fanny is THE source of poor behavior? No, it doesn't.
Temperament genetics are highly polygenetic. Each generation, those genes are scrambled and 50% are lost and the remaining ones are regrouped. Those polygenetics can't be passed down intact from a single distant ancestor the way a red gene can be passed down.
The idea of a "mean gene" that can be passed down is wrong. Temperament is the result of a very large number of genes in certain combinations. Those combinations fall apart in just a single generation or two when animals of varying temperaments are mixed.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jan 9, 2018 19:06:35 GMT
Ah , Now you are saying temperament is not heritable.
This flies in the face of everything I've read about breeding Anything, but I should expect that, from this source.
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Post by cascade on Jan 9, 2018 22:09:05 GMT
I'm saying that people with a poor understanding of genetics don't understand how inheritance of polygenetic traits work.
The temperament of an animal is highly polygenetic. That means that there are many different gene alleles at many different loci, in certain combinations, that have an effect on temperament.
Single genes, like the color black, can be passed down unchanged generation after generation after generation after generation. A great, great, great, great, great, great black granddaughter can inherit her gggg-great grandsire's black gene. Single genes can survive the genetic shuffle and 50% loss of genes that occurs each generation.
In my herd of mostly red cows but some black cows too, where I always use a red bull, every black calf that I have, I can trace their black gene back many, many, many, many generations to a great great great great great grandmother. All my blacks today, got their black gene from my oldest cow, Hillview Heather, and she got her black gene from her mother HV Saltaire Susie.
But with polygenetic combinations, those particular gene combinations can't stay intact over many generations unless every single dam and sire in those generations are practically clones of each other.
A great great great grandson can't inherit his great great great grandfather's entire set of temperament genes. The ggg-grandson can inherit a temperament gene or two from his ggg-grandsire, but those one or two genes by themselves don't have a great effect on temperament.
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Post by lonecowhand on Jan 10, 2018 21:33:28 GMT
I believe you are taking these arguments too literally. While a lay- person (myself) does not care which gene or combination of genes produce a trait, they recognize the results in behavior. We may call it a Wacko gene, but it is behavior, not genetics which are apparent.
Polygenetic traits are still genetic traits and are therefore somewhat predictable. The more closely related the animals , as in Line Breeding, the more likely that the "scramble" of genes will replicate a particular trait.So by your logic, the modern animals you are referencing have a 70% chance of combining with an animal with similar behavioral traits.
Humans have been selecting genetics since they first roped and penned a wild Bos Taurus. While they may not have understood the mechanics , they understood that the mean ones tasted good, and were best kept out of the gene pool.
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Post by cascade on Jan 11, 2018 2:21:46 GMT
When it comes to polygenetic traits, having a particular bull far back on a pedigree is meaningless. Even if the bull appears multiple times on the pedigree.
Having a super sweet bull far back on your pedigrees doesn't mean all the descendents will be super sweet.
Having a great cow with a great udder far back on your pedigrees doesn't mean all the descendents will have great udders.
Having a non-traditional bull far back on your pedigrees won't make all the descendents non-traditional.
Udders and behavior and traditional attributes are highly polygenetic and can't be passed from a single distant ancestor down to a large number of descendents.
Good udders rely on having lots of certain genes all in the right combinations, and a cow inherits those genes from lots of ancestors (not a single ancestor)
Good genetic behavior relies on having lots of certain genes in certain combinations, inherited from lots of ancestors.
Single genes like PHA or Chondrodyplasia CAN be passed down and spread through the generations from a source animal. But polygenetic traits like udder features or behavior features or traditional features can't be passed down intact from a single ancestor because the shuffling of genes each generation rips those polygenetic combinations apart, throws 50% of the genes away, and forms new combinations from the remaining 50% of genes from each parent.
Telling people that they will have traditional animals as long as they avoid a certain bull on the distant pedigree or telling people they will have safe bulls as long as they avoid certain distant ancestors is stupid and reckless.
If you want safe and friendly animals then breed out of safe and friendly parents, and cull any animals with less than good behavior (Also raise them correctly since how they are raised affects behavior). If you want Dexters that meet the traditional breed description, then breed out of animals that meet that description, and cull any that don't meet the traditional description. Avoiding a certain distant ancestor bull has ZERO effect on maintaining traditional traits.
Focusing on certain historical bulls is only meaningful when it comes to single gene traits like PHA, but not meaningful when it comes to polygenetic traits like behavior or being "traditional".
PS. You're all invited to come see my super sweet bulls. I usually have a dozen of them around. They are sweet because behavior has been my #1 selection criteria for more than a decade.
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Post by jamshundred on Jan 11, 2018 17:57:27 GMT
How can Lucifer be in 98% of the pedigrees? You just made that up. When a person has any percentage of dallying with the truth. .. . .
Jupiter of Knotting Nasty disposition
Son- Lucifer of Knotting - Shot dead during rampage
Multiple reports of sons, and grandsons of Lucifer charging or attacking humans.
Denial . Denial Denial
Let's hope it doesn't lead to other D words. Disfigurement or death
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Post by cascade on Jan 12, 2018 4:08:51 GMT
Lucifer and Jupiter came from dairies. Dairies are notorious for creating bad bulls by separating the baby bulls from the herd and bottle feeding them. Hand raising baby bulls can create dangerous animals. Bulls need to be raised with their cattle families.
I said Lucifer is on 70% of all pedigrees, so you're going to find him on 70% of any Dexter's pedigrees (with good or bad behavior). I said it's Limbury Fanny (via Parndon Bullfinch) who is on 98% of all Dexter pedigrees, so 98% of bad bulls likely have Limbury Fanny on the pedigree. My point is that your analysis is flawed. Just because Limbury Fanny is on 98% of pedigrees of bulls with bad behavior, it doesn't mean she is the source of bad behavior.
Every Dexter (and all breeds of cattle) descend from terrifically mean Aurochs wild ox. If having some poor behaving distant ancestors is a problem, then all Dexters would have a problem, because they all descend from the wild Aurochs.
If you want to raise a valid alarm regarding bulls, then tell people the following:
1. Never keep a bottle-baby bull around.
2. Never make a pet out of a baby bull (you can be friends with a bull, but he needs to live with other cattle and relate to other cattle and view you as farm authority).
3. Only keep bulls that have correct behavior.
4. Cull any bulls that exhibit incorrect behavior.
5. Create lines of bulls selected for having a natural genetic tendency to exhibit correct behavior.
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