Another clue to early dun

[jamshundred]

This was not found by me, but by another person interested in Dexter color research, (Amy.)    2 red parents with a recorded black offspring.       Also in this pedigree is a cow named RED ROSE.    In the Irish herd book her listing, IF178 is recorded with her color as black, however, in the English herd book, she is #234 and registered as RED.   Both registries show her with a son, Prince of the Roses, so it appears that both are the same.





s is not my find.    Another person interested in Dexter research ( Amy)  found this from entries in the pedigrees of Legacy World files.   2 red animals with a black calf ! !   

[jamshundred]

I also found this entry recently, registered as ROAN,  but have not had time to do more research of connected animals.    

[cascade]

Very interesting.

The dun gene (broken TYRP1 gene) pops up all the time in all sorts of animals from mice and rats to cats and dogs and pigeons. It's called "chocolate" in chocolate lab dogs.

TYRP1 is an enzyme (TYrosinase Related Protein 1) that helps make black pigment stay black and not fade to brown.

An animal with two broken TYRP1 genes can't make the enzyme, so any black pigment fades to brown.

Some black cows have tons of underlying red pigment. So if those black cows have two broken TYRP1 genes, then their black pigment fades, but any red pigment will still shine brightly. A genetically "Dun" cow can be very very red with lots of red pigment.

Some black cows don't have much underlying red pigment, so if those animals have two broken TYRP1 genes, they will look very brown or tan (not red).

The old standard said Dexters should be black or red in color. They meant phenotype, not genotype.

Today we call a Dexter "dun" based on genotype, ignoring its phenotype which could be very very red.

[cascade]

Judy,

Here's a way that two genetically red animals can have a black offspring.

E+ wildtype reds can throw offspring that are solid black, via the Agouti genes. These are sometimes called "Agouti blacks". The E+ wild-type gene found at the MC1R locus allows an animal to produce both red and black pigments... Genes at the Agouti locus work to make patterns from the red and black pigments. The reason why some E+ wildtype reds have very dark heads is due to a pattern gene at the Agouti locus. The most recessive allele at the Agouti locus calls for a solid black pattern in E+ animals. If two red parents both had a hidden recessive black pattern gene at the Agouti locus, they could throw a calf that is E+/E+ at the Extension locus and a/a at the Agouti locus and this calf would be solid black in color.

The Agouti locus is well studied and well tested in some animals, but not yet well studied and tested in cattle.

[teatpuller11]

Judy, I know somewhere in an old agricultural book I've see a Plate with Red Rose in it. I think she was a very early Dexter, one of the first? That cow was black.

  

[jamshundred]

Teatpuller,

I have that photo of Red Rose.  (She was also a renowned milker).  It is on her pedigree entry in the Legacy registry.    I am NOT sure of her color.   The Irish herd book entry (IF178) registered her as a black cow.   The English herd book entry EF234 registered her as red.   Both registries recorded a calf named Prince of the Roses with those respective numbers. 

AMY has now identified six animals that are registered as black with red parents.



Cowbridge Brier Rose EF1010

Dyol Black Gnat EF898

Lewton Jim EM326

Sedgemere O'Golly IF1540

Okeford Rosewood EF 1246

Periwinkle EF1813

Another interesting thing. . . . . . I was reading an article Amy sent me that was written by Arthur W. Sutton in the late 1800's which was part of an article or publication called (The) Potato that was published in one of the year books of Agriculture in the UK.   Here is the google link.

books.google.com/books?id=TLIUAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA673&ots=S24iPkqqQ3&dq=limelight%20dexter%20bull&pg=PA673&ci=108%2C550%2C772%2C460&source=bookclip

Sutton makes mention that there were very few red Kerries, but says there were quite a few red Dexters.   I am convinced many of those red Dexters were actually the deep reddish shade seen in duns.   The pedigree for Lowther Miss Bounder, ( the roan cow) has two foundation parents.  The sire was registered with no mention of color, but the dam, was registered as red.

[jamshundred]

MORE ! ! ! interesting findings.  

Limelight was perhaps the most often illustrated early Dexter bull.  Amy noticed something in a picture and asked me if he could be red.  I said I'd never seen anything which made any reference to him being anything but black and he

was registered as black.  He had to carry color however, either red, or dun for he produced progeny of color.

Attachments:

[teatpuller11]

I noticed that sometimes the registrars simply record what the owners send in, and back then, no one seems to have paid attention to color. The DCS has black offspring from red probably because the owner got the bull wrong, and a fertile calf did the deed, not the senior bull as they assumed. In fact, I've seen where early owners truly believed that you could have six bulls in a pasture and it was the oldest bull that was the sire of all the calves, which would account for a whole lot of mis registrations.

If you look at ADCA herdbooks, and compare them to the online pedigree, someone went in and 'corrected' errors, but didn't bother to say so.  Now we have what future people will say are original records (herd books) which don't match the online pedigrees and I'll bet there will be the same arguments over those.

A lot of maybe's are just ignorance on the part of the person setting up the pedigree and wishful thinking on the part of later generations trying to figure things out. 

[Deleted]

No back then they did not pay much attention to color if it wasnt black it was called red.

If you are talking bull calves there is no way a healthy mature bull will let yearling or even 2 year olds breed. If you are talking a bunch of mature bulls in the same field. Then yes at some point the herd bull will loose his status as he ages to a younger bull.

[teatpuller11]

think again, dexterfarm. You are behind the times. Several cows in heat, bull snoozing or busy with another cow, you'd be surprised how enterprising a youngster can be.

[Deleted]

you yourself said you didnt cut any bull calves. So are you now saying your own pedigrees were not accurate because you really have no idea who the sires were? 

[teatpuller11]

Why the attack? Is this what you do and hope for the best? With my Dexters, All bull calves are weaned prior to puberty and kept in separate pens and fields, one removed from any females. Wasn't there something on one of the bds about an AU breeder with only a few cows and one bull, and the parentage verification came back wrong, and the only other culprit was a yearling bull, and he matched?

[Deleted]

sure anything is possible but a good bull is an exceptional herder. He will separate out the females coming into heat and keep other bulls at a distance. I generally only have one bull with the intended group of females but at times I have had multiple and seen this behavior many times. I also parentage confirm and if multiple bulls were together all possibilities are compared. So far they have all been as expected. 

You would have everyone believe that only your pedigrees are correct and that everyone that came before you was not.

[teatpuller11]

dream on, dexterfarm

[kaldakur]

Jan 17, 2018 1:29:49 GMT jamshundred said:

I have that photo of Red Rose.  (She was also a renowned milker).  It is on her pedigree entry in the Legacy registry.    I am NOT sure of her color.   The Irish herd book entry (IF178) registered her as a black cow.   The English herd book entry EF234 registered her as red.   Both registries recorded a calf named Prince of the Roses with those respective numbers. 

---

I stumbled upon an interesting reference to Red Rose this afternoon.

In Ted Neal's "The Life and Times of Dexters" on page 33 there is a reference to Red Rose's daughter's color (which appears to insinuate that Red Rose was not black).  The article Mr. Neal has reproduced in his book regarding Red Rose was in the Live Stock Journal, April 17, 1896.  It says:

"From her (Red Rose, calved in 1886) there is a beautiful yearling heifer Kidmore Red Rose by King Othello 2nd 108, quite of the type of her dam, but of black color; also the black bull Kidmore Othello 2nd 108 by Othello 17, calved in March, 1892, a thick-fleshed, deep-bodied bull, having muscular arms and showing good masculine charachter; and also the excellent black bull King of the Roses 168 by Kidmore Paradox 3rd 60, calved December 1893, and winner of Lord Ashburton's 50-guinea challenge cup at Bournemouth last year."

[jamshundred]

Thanks for sharing with everyone Amy!  I enjoy anything written about the early Dexters and hope others do as well and will start sharing articles they find.  I with the English would share more.  As a whole, they have always been "gatherers" who saved so much historical data and tradition.

[jamshundred]

I think we have some folks who visit or even post here with some knowledge of dun so I think I will do some pondering.

I believe dun was originally registered as red.  In the US we know this to be true.

The only duns I had ever personally seen were the shade of dun that is very reddish.   Sometime in late 04 or early 05 the ADCA Bulletin had a photo on the front cover of a group of Dexters and one of them was very whitish/blond/tan.  I didn't realize it was a Dexter.  I wrote the editor ( whose herd it happened to be) and asked the breed, only to be told it was a Dexter.   Later I saw a photo of Mrs. Rutherford's herd with the very tannish Dexters.  Today, there is a wide variety of shading in dun Dexters.   This morning I was working on a transfer and the Dexter is very dark brown in color.  I first noticed this in one particular herd I worked with a lot.   I tried to get samples of other animals whose photos I saw with this coloring, hoping to have them "someday" if there is ever research on various aspects of this fascinating breed, but Dexter breeders will say one thing and do another and there are still Dexters whose samples I'd like to gather before the animals die.

I realize that photos depend on lighting.  A perfect example of how different the dun color can look can be seen in two photos of 13121.   Here's an interesting dun.  017720 ?

[jamshundred]

For those with an interest in research and new to the dun research.

In America, all known dun cattle identified by color will trace to the 1955 imports from England.  One of those Dexters, Grinstead Ambassador carried dun, and that dun came through the Framfield lines.

In England, the first identified source of dun was Grinstead Plover.  

A preservation bull in the original population project, Elmwood Mackoy carries dun, and he traces to Grinstead Nelson, Grinstead Peachtree.   This is an interesting extended pedigree for the lack of color.  The first non-black in the pedigree was Summerdale Bracken recorded as red, with two red parents.

UPDATE -   There is a new thread regarding questions raised as to the recessives carried by Elmwood Mackoy.   Follow that thread for the update and eventually conclusion.

[jamshundred]

LOOK @@ what Karrie found and sent me ! !     Another amazing clue to bolster the color dun was in the Dexter breed from the foundation  LInk>>>>>
books.google.com/books?id=k5U5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA434&lpg=PA434&dq=register+of+pure+kerry+cattle+and+dexters&source=bl&ots=#v=onepage&q=register%20of%20pure%20kerry%20cattle%20and%20dexters&f=false

Begins with the last paragraph -column 2 and continues at top of 3rd column:

Quote;

In color, the Dexter cattle are mostly black, with or without a little white.   Soft-colored yellow reds are to be met with, while occasionally one sees a rather brighter red with darker colored ears and horns. 

[cascade]

I don't think they are necessarily seeing dun here. Their description of reds is very similar to what I see in my reds. Some are soft yellowish while others are copper red.  

It's interesting that they say Dexters average 42" high.

 

[Deleted]

I suspect the yellow color is what we would call the lighter faidded duns
the red with the dark ears would most likely be wild red.
and I would suspect the rest of the reds were likely dun that had more of a red appearance.