A recent email regarding a bull named in dun research

[jamshundred]

Yesterday I received an email which contained the paragraph I quote below.   I am posting it, (the pertinent content) for more than several reasons.

I'm not on facebook, too much bs, but I gather you've been on providing

info? guesswork? based on your 'research', that McCoy

does/might/should/could/would/possibly carry dun. I've been contacted

privately by a Dexter person asking me, because of my knowledge, to

share with you EM's colour dna:



ED/ED and B/B



NO dun.

Reason # 1.      I do NOT post anything. . . .. . . and I mean anything. . . . . . . as fact unless I am confident it is accurate because I believe my sources or research to be accurate.   A number of years ago, one of the A-13 gang of nasty girls saw I had posted a color result on an AI bull, Jamie O'Callen that was in error.   My source was the LAB in Canada.   I had the actual paper with the case numbers and the color results.   I got a straw of Jamie, and paid for testing myself at UCD and published the result which did differ from the one on the
other report I had been sent.

When I received this email I was puzzled as I had fuzzy recall that the original source was one of three people whose knowledge I trust,plus I thought I had verified it myself. .  Elmwood MacCoy was the first "original population" bull to be acknowledged in the UK preservation effort and the first collected for international semen export.  I was stunned to see he already has THREE HUNDRED and ONE progeny.    I just scrolled through some of them.   Far enough to show at least six DUN calves and two RED calves.   Which would mean, he carries both red and dun.   Not proof because there could be clean-up bulls at work. . . . but that high in number?  Below is a copy of the the calves of EM of very recent years.   You can see the entire list on the DCS pedigree site here:  www.grassroots.co.uk/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/pedeweb/dexter_nolog_start.html   Then put the name in the search box.






Reason #2

This was a lab result sent to me by a long-time experienced and knowledgeable breeder.  However, I wonder if this person was given a copy of the actual result?   If so, why wasn't that sent to me?   If not, why not?   Stop and think on that for a moment.   Then, move on to asking yourself WHAT lab issued a result in error?   Was it the USA?   I wondered.   The lab in Texas made errors in all categories, and ADCA . . . . . NOT ONCE.........advised their members.   NOT ONCE.   It was up to others of us who had concerns to do that, and then the A-13 clique was waiting in the wings to go for the gullet.   I would hope the person who sent me the mail would send me a copy of the report so I can publish it on this thread.    An error from a lab can cost a Dexter it's life! !   Here's an example.  A few years ago, a breeder who used the Texas lab ordered an A2 test in preparation of selling their animal at a show in Missouri.  Weeks passed, no report received, and the owner was running out of time and ordered the test from UCD where the normal reliable service came through and the results were A2/A2.   While the owner was at the show the results from Texas arrived.   A1/A2.   I know of this because I received an urgent call asking my opinion and what to do.   I knew UCD would review the results immediately and confirm their results.    BUT .  .. . . . . . what if the owner had only the error result from Texas?   Would she have marketed her Dexter as a milk cow.  What about potential buyers.  Would that have decreased the number?  And/or the price?   Breeders had a right to know that the ADCA lab was frought with error and yet they were never, ever, told.

Reason #3

I have people call me or write to me with help on all sorts of issues.   Research, information, how-to.   There is not a single person who can . . .or will. . . . .ever be able to tell you in honesty that I don't give them 100 per cent courtesy and cooperation.   It's what I actually do best.  And care the most about.    Yet some person "out-there" in Dexter land took their message to another person for it to be second-partied to me.   Wonder why?   My thoughts. . . .
It was an ADCA person.  Perhaps on the genetics committee.  Semen from this bull was brought to the USA, and since it is an AI bull, the genetic testing information would have been required.  People on the genetics committee have access to much information.  ( Was it a "GOTCHA" moment?  ADCA fosters some very negative and exclusionary attitudes in their leadership, in their membership, and in the breed along with cliquish, juvenile, territorial behavior).
What kind of personality doesn't go to the source with a result they believe is being published in error?   

Reason #4  

 I don't remember discussing Mackoy on Facebook.  I try not to use that medium but I do post on a historical page and researching dun is mentioned there.  Maybe.   I sort of suspect the main source of any comments I made on Elmwood MacKoy can be found on the threads on this forum.   However, it WAS published somewhere and thus it needs to be addressed.

Reason #5

If I know it. . . . you usually know it.   I believe that there should not be a chosen few who have information or knowledge of this breed.   I believe, and always have, that all information and data should be shared. I think it inspires an interest and enthusiasm amongst many for a deeper knowledge and interest in the breed.  So now you know.   Maybe one of you will want to get a straw of MacKoy and have it tested at UCD to see what their result will be, and I'm betting the result will be accurate.    And if it matches the one sent to me. . . . . . golly gee there are some serious issues with pedigrees in the UK.   Let's hope the lab or the first party-to the second-party got it wrong.  Lots less problems that way!

Update 2-15-    I have a used straw of Elmwood MacKoy that I will have tested and will publish the results in about 10 days.   Seems those who apparently have the lab results are not inclined to share them with their second-party resource or that party is not as well.  I would assume both parties have the actual lab results  before proceeding with the email alert.

Judy

[jamshundred]

I was sent a copy of the UCD results which are ED/ED. B/B.   UCD will check the result and I wait word from the owner of the results .

This could be a “Dexter nothingburger” as to the dun itself, or it may provide interesting opportunity for further dun research as that which exists was not adequate or accurate.    For those of us who have pondered the various shades and what modifies the color or if outcrossing has effect or changes the science, those questions may become more interesting to pursue. 

Will hopefully have an update by the end of the week.

[teatpuller11]

HI Judy, I'm sure many of us are waiting to hear back from you. The end of the week was last week. Do you have any further information? Will you be contacting the English assn. to let them know their herd entries are wrong? Maybe owners over there don't understand how many calves are born with a brown coat but turn black? There are lots of posts on Irish Dexter Cattle proboards site that talk about checking out the hair around the eye to determine true coat color. Thanks for your diligence.

[jamshundred]

The answer as far as it is known to date was known last week before I was forced "off grid", and very interesting.

The owner of the UCD results had them rechecked and UCD confirmed their color result of ED/ED  BB.

However, there ARE owners in England with colored animals from AI breedings.   I tried to reach each one of them last week.  Of those who I did contact:

One owner of a dun animal is a reputatable long-standing breeder.  The Dexter is most assuredly dun as I have a photo of it.  It is a deep brown dun in color with a very dark face.   This owner told me that the breeder, Pat Short, of the Elmwood herd had only one bull on the property at the time of the breeding, and that she was known to be an observant and honest breeder.

Another owner registered a red calf.  This person was only a Dexter owner a short time, and all the Dexters ended up going to slaughter.   I was assured there was no bull on the property.

Another owner was very clear.  The straw was checked twice at the time of the breeding.  When the calf was seen in the field it was thought at first to be a deer, and it was described as having the coloring of a baby fawn.  The owner said the straw was checked a third time to confirm the sire after the calf was born.

It seems they do not test for red or dun for registration in England.   

I believe the two owners with the non-black Dexters.  So perhaps we have some new science to explore.    I see no reason not to think there is a shade of "dun" ( or brown) that has yet to be identified in Dexters that is not identified with the TYRP1 testing.   The owners in America rarely tested for dun in the past.  Most testing was for red as that was a requirement to register red calves.    I think there is more to learn about non-black Dexters  as far as color recessives.  We know that is true where white is concerned, so why not where brown in concerned?

Judy

[jamshundred]

I have now spoken to yet another breeder who registered a "dun" calf from Elmwood Mackoy.   The description is consistent with other information and a photo.  The breeder thought dun was not an accurate description of the color as it was much darker than what seems to be called dun and "hard to describe".  The owner is checking to see if he might have a photo, but he sold the cow to slaughter as she would not breed.

[cascade]

Dun = Broken TYRP1 gene, unable to produce the TYRP1 enzyme required to make black pigment look black, so the pigment looks brown.

I believe that in testing for dun vs. not dun, they test for the commonly known form of the broken TYRP1 gene. If they find the common broken form, they code it as "b" (brown). If they don't find the common broken form, then they code it as "B" (no dun)....

But what they are overlooking is the probability that there is more than one form of a broken TYRP1 gene. It's possible that we have two (or three) different versions of Dun (broken TYRP1 gene versions).

So we might really have this

b1 = Dun
b2 = Dun
b3 = Dun
B = not Dun (normal TYRP1)

Currently "B" actually means "not b1"

This is all similar to Chondrodysplasia. When they test for BD1, if they don't find BD1, then they code it as "N" for normal... But it could be BD2 and not normal. They don't test for Normal.

We might need to verify what I am saying, with the labs.

[jamshundred]

Amy sent me this.    There is an interesting animal in the MCIR section with the testing result shown as ED/ED



homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/Braunvieh.html


The more I think on it, the more I realize that the non-black cattle in the US ( and around the world where it seems little testing is done for cattle at all in Europe), have basically been primarily tested for MC1R (red).  There are only a few breeders using the Legacy testing services that actually tested for dun in the cattle with non-black coats.  Now that breeders are more willing to share samples of their animals, I would like to see some comprehensive color research.

If you were to do a search in the Legacy world records for color, and see the number and percentage of RED Dexters that were registered in the first herd books, you would wonder why the breed didn't shade to red many decades ago.
I don't think they were all actually red by genetic definition.

[cddexter]

Judy, I find this most interesting. I like to think that I have a vested interest in the outcome here, since I was the person instrumental in getting colour defined. I agree the number of not black, not red calves appears to be highly curious. I think the next step would be to do further testing.  Would you be interested in continuing the research, and arranging for dna proofs of parentage?  If the sire is correct, then I'd like to go back to Sheila Schmutz and see if we can discover the source.

Cheers, Carol.

[jamshundred]

Wow!  Look who dropped by for a visit.

I find it intriguing myself.  One of the people I spoke with, ( the one with the calf originally thought to be a deer) seemed absolutely credibile, said there were no other bulls on the property, checked the straw twice at time of breeding, and then when the calf was non-black checked again to make sure there was no mistake.  The other person is a long-time experienced breeder and knew Mrs. Short quite well and said there was no bull but EM on the property at the time this cow was conceived.  

The more I've thought of it the more I realize that hardly anyone with DUN cattle test for the color dun.  Non-blacks are primarily tested here for RED because that is a requirement for registration if there are not two red parents, and few black owners test for color unless they are looking for red.  It is an additional surprise to me that there is no requirement for color testing in DCS, so if I thought red or dun was a huge mystery in the DCS records in historical records, the modern ones are just the same as it was up to the owner to decide, and even in modern times in the US many breeders have difficulty determining color.

Absolutely I am always ready and willing to gather info to solve a Dexter mystery!

Judy

[cddexter]

Thanks. I've seen too many experts and people absolutely convinced of the sire, find that it was the not yet steered calf at foot that was the sire (after all, he's just a calf, not THE bull). AU discovered this thanks to their having to parentage verify and had to make corrections to their herd book.

Barnston Mickey Mouse was originally registered as red because 'everyone' knew you couldn't get dun from red.  oops, wrong again.  Rob Roy was E+, Goldfinch was black.  Means Rob Roy carried dun.  Liz Seymour said she used to get the odd 'dirty oak table' coloured animal, but they always were culled, as not a true Dexter colour.  BMM's registration was changed to dun.

When I was doing the colour research, I did extended pedigrees of dozens of animals.  Found several red calves from two black parents.  Not skullduggery, just ignorance and laziness.  Not everyone is dishonest. 

Barrowgreen had a red, photos and all, when 'everyone' knew red and dun were mutually exclusive.  Even Beryl thought that, and published same.

I've learned never (NEVER) to assume.  If you'd check maybe two of the not black/not red's, that would give us a lead.

Cheers, Carol.

PS:  It was at the AGM when Jerry Starnes died that Sandi Thomas insisted red be tested for, as she was tired of having her reds confused with the duns everyone else was registering as red, mostly thanks to Rosemary (who called them Dunn, another error, owello).  And it was Jim Johnson at the Chico AGM who claimed the dictionary said dun was a shade of red (as though coat colour was the same as paint) that got us the mixup and resulting red/dun cop-out determination.  Never could figure out why the various Boards over the years were dead set against having a professional geneticist provide advice on technical matters.  And here we are.

[kaldakur]

Carol,

Can you elaborate on the significance of black x black = red calves in relation to dun? Thank you!

Amy

[cddexter]

It's been written up several times, some readable, others not.  Here's the basics.  Hope I can make it not too messy:

It was thought for years there were two base coat colors at one locus, black and red, and then some modifying genes somewhere else, all dominant or semi-dominant that affected the color, so you got diluted greys and creams.  Around 1996 someone did the research and discovered a third allele at the base locus.  This third allele was labeled 'wild' because it could take on just about any color:  I used to call it chameleon.  The neat part about this third allele is that it can vary between breeds, but it is (so far) always consistent within a breed.  In Dexters, this third allele is expressed as red, and can come in a variety of tones, just as the usual red can, too.

Scientifically, black is dominant and is  referred to as 'ED'.  Red is recessive and is referred to as 'r'.  The wild gene, red in Dexters, is referred to as 'E+'.

Red ('r' and 'E+' look the same-ish, so don't sweat it), and black are on one locus, dun is on a different locus (named TYRP1).

Red is recessive to black, but dominant to dun.
Dun is a recessive gene that must be homozygous to be expressed. It overrides black but not red, so any Dexter homo for dun can be dun if it has a black base locus gene, but red not dun if there are only red genes at the base locus.  Crazy!

Let's talk phenotype vs. genotype.  The first is what the animal looks like on the ground, the second is the true genetic makeup of the animal.

A phenotype black Dexter will have a base locus genotype of ED/ED or ED/r or ED/E+.  That's because black always overrides red so if there is a black gene present, you won't see the red(s).  That black Dexter could have no dun gene or just one dun gene (not expressed because it's recessive and it takes two to tango).

A phenotype dun Dexter will have a base locus genotype of ED/ED or ED/r or ED/E+, but will have two dun genes at the TYRP1 locus. 

A phenotype red Dexter will be e/e or e/E+ or E+/E+ at the base locus, but can have none, one or both genes at TYRP1 dun, because for some reason we don't know about yet, the red overrides the dun when there's no black involved.

Clear as mud?

If you start with duns without any red genes, you will always get dun. Quick solution.
If you start with black or red but carrying one dun allele and maybe a red, then you'll take quite a long time to get nothing but duns. Long solution.

Go to the American Dexter Cattle Assn website and scroll down until you are offered the opportunity to search the site. Enter Color Genetics in the search field, and click. You will be directed to a number of articles and tables, all of which will either confuse the heck out of you, or be helpful. There is a PDF with a table of alleles and color results which will explain the combinations and their results. Unfortunately it wasn't meant to stand alone, so it doesn't explain the color genes. ED is black, E+ is red, e is red (on one locus), b is dun, B is black (on a different locus)

I'm confident of my opinions, as I did the original color research in 1997, identifying three (four) colors: black, dun, red and (wild) red, and published the results. I did talk with the reigning uni expert on color, but was told that I (as just an amateur) couldn't possibly be right because I was obviously talking about a dilute gene and they were all dominant and what I was talking about was a recessive.  Another breeder, John Potter, worked with this expert, convinced her we were right, did the extensive research, and together published a scientific paper in 2002 confirming a new recessive non-dilute modifier.

The short answer to your question is:  black x black = red:  both black animals must be ED/r or ED/E+, so while they are black themselves, they both carry a red gene (of either type) which if the calf gets just the red gene from each parent, will be red.  Even if the calf inherits a dun gene (one or two) it will still be red.  The ONLY time you can get a dun is if one or both of the alleles at the base locus is black, and both alleles at TYRP1 are dun.

(and, she said not too modestly, if you are interested in the dwarf gene, then do the same search, but enter CHONDRODYSPLASIA, which will take you to an article on chondro with lots of pictures, which I wrote to 2008.)

What other traits are you interested in? Not all Dexters were created equal.

Feel free to ask for help. I'm usually around somewhere, although recently retired from Dexters after 35 years.

Cheers, Carol.

[jamshundred]

I am not a scientist. . . . never claimed even an iota of such.   I am a keen observer and analyst with a great memory so I am always interested in, and grateful for discussions on the genetics of Dexter cattle.  There are those it benefits just like me, and those with science backgrounds as well.   Keep it coming!

[jamshundred]

By the way.   I was told years ago, and I think this might have been by "Smiling" Johnson, that the easiest way to lose RED was to have a DUN bull in the mix.  Perhaps that is not true, but one has to wonder.   It seems to me the minute the dun carriers came into the Peerless herd, the red ones left it. Jerry Starnes produced red and red-carrying animals, but his herd developed into primarily dun color animals.   The same thing seemed to happen with the red in the Beerex herd.  

Judy

[kaldakur]

Thanks for the reply Carol, that was great. I do think I understand the basics of how dun carries, how black and red carry, I just didn't understand how the black x black = red related to the story, why it was unusual or a mistake. Why that stood out for you in that instance. Black x Black could = red or dun (or red carrying dun), if my understanding is correct. I could see red x red = black being a flag to a mistake... I'm curious as to what I missed in the story. It's interesting to me!

I am fairly familiar with horse color genetics, and I see Dexter dun as somewhat similar in action to silver dapple, where it dilute only black to brown - no effect on red. Silver isn't recessive like dun though, if a black horse has it, you see it's expression, but the dilution seems to be a similar action.

Have you ever seen a dark/black colored E+ Dexter cow? I read in an article that it had been seen in Icelandic cattle, and wondered if it had ever been seen in Dexters.

Thanks again. I don't know much, but color genetics fascinate me.

[cddexter]

Judy, if you will think for half a mo', duns are really black, so if you breed dun and red you are really breeding black and red, which must = black, unless both carry a dun gene, when the result will be dun. No rocket science here. 

Kal, you've got it!  Glad it helped. 

Cheers, c.

[jamshundred]

Oh, and don't forget you agreed to check out the dun calves paternity on the other thread. Now that would be a worthwhile use of your time. Just think of the credit you can claim if it's a brand new locus. Let's just hope you don't decide it's from outcrossing and therefore all those with the gene aren't real Dexters either.

LOL!  Is that what concern's you?   Is that why you have turned up?  To try and protect your territory?  My only interest in dun is to show it was in the original foundation animals.  I think that is pretty much accomplished because it can now be traced within one generation of foundation.

My only involvement in this new issue relates to that research and my commenting for the benefit of other researchers that Elmwood Mackoy carries dun -   as he had at the time EIGHT non-black offspring registered in England, two of them as red.  ( I did not realize that England does not require any proof of color whether red or dun). 

So, I received a bit of a snarky email informing me he didn't.   I then contacted the owners I could reach by phone to verify their animals were non-black  and it seems there is a reasonable conclusion to be made there is something yet to be determined regarding color or the lack of it in this bull.

I then was asked by a prominent UK breeder to not pursue this issue at the moment because of political tensions in England and was advised there were a few other issues to be addressed once the political is resolved.  So, I've done no more.   It is an English bull, the calves all registered by English breeders and the expense to genotype and parentage confirm should be their responsibility.  If there is science to be learned or gained, then that is left to the scientists who might wish to avail themselves of what appears to be an opportunity to further define dun or brown if that might be the case.

Judy

PS - I have always believed dun was original to this breed. I would think that carroty red color the question mark more than the dun. and perhaps all there is to know of red is yet discovered.

[jamshundred]

Update on Elmwood Mackoy.

i have tested a NON-black offspring,  This cow tested ED/ED.  No dun - no red.  Parentage confirmed to Mackoy.   a black daughter of this cow, also tested not carrying color recessive.


There is now another “brownish” color in Dexters unidentified so far by color science.  There are also several non-black Dexters out of the Netherlands herd that are not dun and not red based on current test results.

This has me curious as to a line of “dun” Dexters in the US that were very brown in color.  I first noticed this in the bull Dixie Brown Buell.  His pedigree is not trustworthy so not much research can be accomplished with any confidence,

And....while I am at it........the pedigree of Elmwood Mackoy has an issue as well.  Seems an old story told to me from the UK, which I related on another chat group ages ago,  and both myself and the story teller were publically rebuked, was...in fact.....accurate.  More on that later.