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Post by cddexter on Mar 23, 2018 20:24:39 GMT
Mike: All of what you call Legacy Dexters came from lost US herds with no paperwork. Most were accepted by the Board of the day as being okay, even tho' one bull was credited with siring a lot of calves and he was 30 years old...that one happened during my time, so it's recent! I applaud saving old lines. I don't applaud this feeding frenzy of pretending one set of impossible to prove 'pure' Dexters is better than another set with continuous paperwork. Even then, paperwork is questioned if there is even one animal of another breed on the property or nearby, and owners are always accused of deliberate wrongdoing, for profit, but only if the trait is something Judy doesn't like. Anyone else is pure as the driven snow, their pedigrees aren't questionable, and how dare you suggest otherwise.
The rest of the livestock world, regardless of breed, accepts a little outcrossing. So do all of the Dexter associations. On the advice of the leading geneticists worldwide. Apparently Judy knows better, and has convinced a few others of their specialness. Judy said a long time ago she started out with the (mis)conception that Dexters were purebred without anything else since whatever god you believe in made them, and she was horrified to learn she'd been lied to. Not horrified to learn she didn't understand and this was her problem, but horrified her version wasn't the one in use. Ever since she's been on the tear, in a very destructive style, even to the point of phoning new members and telling them their brand new fancy Dexter was just a crossbred mongrel and should never have been registered. You can see how many friends she makes with that attitude.
Take the latest quote. It's from Andrew Sheppy, although she didn't credit him. Andrew is also the one who said, in the same publication, that Dexter dun had to be from illicit Jersey crossing because everyone knows there's no brown gene in cattle, and that Outlaw's ancestor Shadwell Robert was about the only pure Dexter. A lot of what he 'researched' has turned out to be pure bunkum. I was at a DCS AGM when a new owner said, in tears, that she'd been told her animals weren't real Dexters because they were Woodmagic and Woodmagic didn't look like early photos. Same destructive style, same backlash.
Yes, Kirk can be tiresome. So can I, but part of that is because we have a point. Legacy follows pedigrees unless it doesn't suit. Legacy promotes the original standard, but then gets mad at the detractors when it can't meet it. No wonder you all hate us. I don't support him blindly. I support some of what he does, but not all of it. Fred had nothing but heritage breeds on his farm, chickens and all. He thought he was doing a good thing.
Judy has done some great things, and it's too bad the assn.'s are too threatened to admit it. It's just a shame this whole Legacy thing can't be conducted in a better atmosphere. Promote what you have, revel in it, in fact. Keep it going. Just don't vilify anyone else who doesn't share your extremely narrow view of what a Dexter should be. Go one further: accept you want to use a lethal gene to create a special appearance, and stop pretending it's all okay as long as not too many die, or that you are forced to keep the Kerry-type around and practice breeding selection to avoid bulldogs. I haven't talked with Kirk, but I'll bet it would take the wind out of his sails in short order, and you wouldn't need to come on and defend your position. Cheers, Carol.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 23, 2018 23:33:41 GMT
With reflection. . . the past cannot be changed. Just the present into the future. We are working on that. And bit by little bit succeeding. We will just keep on keeping on.
Judy
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 24, 2018 1:03:58 GMT
Yup, I agree that there are a lot of breeders now looking at unique crossbreeding, such as the White Dexter, as their next direction. So many have for years promoted their Non-chondro status that it would look silly for them to start breeding chondro carriers...lol
As you know I have been breeding the chondro into the Highland breed, and steadily increasing the percentage of Highland. I have a waiting list 150 plus deep, and they sell within an hour of advising that we have something available. I formed a Facebook page called Miniature Highland Cattle, and it has 3000 members in the last 9 months. The Dexter Cattle Enthusiast site has 6000, and it's been around for several years at least. I have such a demand that I'm flushing a few of our best small Highlands and going to use some of our Dexters as recipients. At least I can make good use of many of the Dexters that are sitting out there in the pasture. When people are holding back bulls from breeding their cows, or having herd reduction sales, that's a big problem. I lay some blame at the feet of the ADCA for encouraging the endless opening of breeders' wallets for all of the testing, and complications of registration. But I also lay a lot of the blame at the feet of polled breeders who were breeding anything and everything that could be called a Dexter to try and capitalize on the polled, red, A2 market. That, I believe was the major driving force behind the push for female genotyping. I don't even think it was because Legacy was setting the standard. I think a lot of polled breeders are losing a lot of money as they sell their $3000 animal as beef.
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Post by cddexter on Mar 24, 2018 6:01:29 GMT
Thanks, Jood. You just proved my point. Cheers, Carol.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 24, 2018 11:45:19 GMT
You are welcome and you are right. Small in number we are but the numbers grow. That is the importance. That someone preserve the past in the present for the future. The loss of a rare heritage breed. For this. Says it all. Judy
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Post by cddexter on Mar 25, 2018 0:21:45 GMT
JUDY, what happened to yesterday's long post at around 4:30? It's gone. Now replaced with an innocuous 'oh we are working on fixing the future'?
You know, the one like you used to post, full of ** and !!, ranting with wild accusations, where you said Fred Chesterley was just an old confused man whom I had taken advantage of and blamed me for just about anything you think is negative with Dexters? Well, except for Fred not liking Dexters, proof of which was the quote above... Do I have to resort to quoting your posts so they don't get lost when you think better of how you've exposed yourself?
PLEASE keep up the good work on testing. I figure there's about 6,000 Dexter owners worldwide. How about looking after your six, and leaving the other 5,994 of us to make our mistakes. Think of how you can say I TOLD YOU SO when yours are the only real Dexters alive and everyone else has had to change their registries to the American (or wherever) Dexter Cross Cattle Association.
Oh, and don't forget you agreed to check out the dun calves paternity on the other thread. Now that would be a worthwhile use of your time. Just think of the credit you can claim if it's a brand new locus. Let's just hope you don't decide it's from outcrossing and therefore all those with the gene aren't real Dexters either.
Cheers, Carol.
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Post by cascade on Mar 25, 2018 1:19:52 GMT
Here is what Legacy promotes as a "Traditional" Dexter - brown, giant, hornless Dexter, 48" tall at 4 years... Likely to be 50 inches by age 8 Here is a true-traditional daughter of Saltaire Platinum. She meets the old Traditional Dexter Breed Standard. Legacy is hurting breed preservation efforts by ignoring the old breed standards.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 15:03:06 GMT
Kirk, do you have any shame? You continue to post pictures from this breeder. He is not involved here. He has no involvement with Legacy at all. He is an ADCA breeder who has since changed to breeding polled. Leave this breeder alone and quit posting his animals and saying he has a connection to Legacy.
I could post all kinds of pictures of polled dexters that do not look like Dexters. I am not going to do that it is not right to post pictures of others animals and degrade them as you do. Just as I could find pictures of 50 % Dexter crosses that retain the look of the Dexter because some will.
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Post by cascade on Mar 26, 2018 4:06:14 GMT
Legacy classifies the giant brown hornless AI bull above as "Traditional" because Legacy ignores the old breed standard, and Legacy simply classifies animals as "traditional" based on the pedigree (a completely flawed approach).
My point in showing the picture of the giant brown hornless AI bull, is to prove that Legacy's classification method is worse than useless. It's Legacy's classification method that is broken (has nothing to do with the owner of the animal).
Legacy does nothing to encourage people to follow the 1900 breed standard.
Perhaps I should start a method called called True-Legacy & True-Traditional. People can send me photos and measurements and descriptions and management methods, and I'll give the animal a "True Traditional" score based on how well the animal and all of its offspring meet the old 1900 standard and if they are raised using old traditional methods.
If you'd like to post one of your animals here, I'll be happy to give it a True-Traditional score that will be meaningful.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 26, 2018 12:16:33 GMT
Legacy classifies the giant brown hornless AI bull above as "Traditional" because Legacy ignores the old breed standard, and Legacy simply classifies animals as "traditional" based on the pedigree (a completely flawed approach). My point in showing the picture of the giant brown hornless AI bull, is to prove that Legacy's classification method is worse than useless. It's Legacy's classification method that is broken (has nothing to do with the owner of the animal). Legacy does nothing to encourage people to follow the 1900 breed standard. Perhaps I should start a method called called True-Legacy & True-Traditional. People can send me photos and measurements and descriptions and management methods, and I'll give the animal a "True Traditional" score based on how well the animal and all of its offspring meet the old 1900 standard and if they are raised using old traditional methods. If you'd like to post one of your animals here, I'll be happy to give it a True-Traditional score that will be meaningful. I have a better idea Kirk. Why don't you start a IPDCA (International Polled Dexter Cattle Association) and then you could be "king". You could accurately cite the origins of the polled Dexter breed without making up stories about what happened 150 years ago that fly in the face of the most logical thoughts about the origin of the breed (i.e. Kerry were the long leg and Dexters with chondrodysplasia were the dwarf)l. YOU COULD BAN CHONDRODYSPLASIA! Then you could leave us alone, to breed small Dexters, even smaller Dexters with chondrodysplasia, with 100% breeding true with both pairs of horn genes so we'd never get one that lacks the ability to grow horns. Why you bother with us I can't understand. If you have such superior breeding spend your time and effort to try to convince people who are more easily fooled about the origins (and almost certainly later crossbreedings) of the polled Dexter. Too bad you can't see a post on Dexter Cattle Enthusiasts...there is a homozygous polled bull there that is shorter and thicker than any of yours that I've seen to date. Of course he's a spitting image of a Lowline Angus, but who cares, right?
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 26, 2018 14:39:43 GMT
Carol,
It has all been said before. Chesterley was an old man. He didn't have any affection for the Dexter breed. That might be the only new thing for some in that post but rather than say in MY words, I decided to let him say it in his. Not to say he wasn't influenced. Sadly enough it is a well known pattern in our society how frequent the elderly are influenced and scammed. Everything else has been said. . . . here. . . . or there.
You and Kirk are here just to blather on. While pondering the onslaught from both of you when it was quiet here and none of us had much of anything to say. . . . . I realized the roots. Legacy is known by most breeders in the US but also overseas. The Legacy preservation effort has been recognized and published in two recent books. These attacks came right on the heels of that. It was a concerted effort.
FIFTEEN years of trying to STOP the preservation effort. Don't you think that if you haven't stopped it by now. . . . . . . . . . . .
Judy
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 26, 2018 15:17:39 GMT
Kirk, I agree with Mike on Ned. I don't know why you keep trying to shame the breeder when the photo is somewhat deceptive, and there is nothing in the early breed descriptions that give height requirements. Here they are. . . . yet again. 1890- Royal Dublin Society - Dexter must be either black or red. Copied below 1900 Dexter Cattle Society- copied next post
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 26, 2018 15:19:24 GMT
Dexter Cattle Society - Herd Book #1 -1900
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 26, 2018 15:29:34 GMT
Kirk, that there were those who wanted the opportunity that polled cattle presented is undeniable. Much opportunity waited just as much opportunity awaits those same breeders in the new breed, White Dexters. The name is a misnomer of sorts because the color pattern is being adopted from another breed, but so was the lack of horns in the polled cattle. The association should have had the knowledge, the wisdom, and above all. .. . the leadership qualities to set up polled as a new breed, developed with Dexter cattle. END of STORY. You can never achieve credibility through deceptive invention. You cannot argue that a White Dexter is not a Dexter and a polled one is,. They both arrive at their pastures with the same out-crossing needed to achieve their traits.
The polled Dexter breeders and owners would still be better served if the error of the past were corrected.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Mar 26, 2018 19:59:16 GMT
It's interesting that any animal of any breed could become a "Dexter" simply by winning a ribbon in a show. You could enter any breed into the Dexter shows and if the judge felt they looked like a Dexter, then they were allowed in the Dexter Herdbook. That's why Dexters have genetics from nearly every UK breed in their backgrounds. The old-timers didn't care about absolute "purity" at all... they cared about meeting the standards.
It's also interesting that a Dexter cow without horns could still get a score of 95/100 and win the show in judging because horns were only 5% of the score. There were old-time show winners without horns.
It's interesting that there was no prohibition against interrupting horn growth. That's why so many people were removing horns.
It's also interesting that all of the old standards state that Dexters are one single type... All with thick bodies and short legs... There is ZERO mention of the three different phonotypes associated modern chondrodysplasia that snuck into the breed. "Long-legged" Dexters and bulldog calves aren't mentioned anywhere in the old standards... "Long-Legged" vs. "Short-legged" is a very modern addition.
Why doesn't Legacy simply promote the old breed standard as it is written?
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Post by cascade on Mar 26, 2018 20:32:10 GMT
Kirk, that there were those who wanted the opportunity that polled cattle presented is undeniable. Much opportunity waited just as much opportunity awaits those same breeders in the new breed, White Dexters. The name is a misnomer of sorts because the color pattern is being adopted from another breed, but so was the lack of horns in the polled cattle. The association should have had the knowledge, the wisdom, and above all. .. . the leadership qualities to set up polled as a new breed, developed with Dexter cattle. END of STORY. You can never achieve credibility through deceptive invention. You cannot argue that a White Dexter is not a Dexter and a polled one is,. They both arrive at their pastures with the same out-crossing needed to achieve their traits. The polled Dexter breeders and owners would still be better served if the error of the past were corrected. Judy Dexters were converted into a mostly hornless breed in the 1950's and 1960's by folks dehorning their Dexters. Those old-timers altered the breed standard to specifically state that hornless Dexters are equal to horned Dexters. The Old Orchard herds and Woodmagic herds and many other "traditional" herds were hornless. Breeders in the UK started using polled animals in order to save calves from the cruelty of dehorning. Many folks in the US were using cruel methods to dehorn Dexters. A smart person imported a purebred registered polled Dexter from the UK, and has saved countless calves from the cruelty of dehorning. Since hornless Dexters were already allowed in the registry, there was no way to exclude other hornless (polled) Dexters from being imported. There were no known issues with the pedigree. There are no known off-breed animals listed in the record. Judy, why doesn't your Legacy system have the corrected records that match the paper records? Let me know when you have it done.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 26, 2018 21:26:41 GMT
Kirk,
Name me 3 herds that routinely dehorned in the 1950's and 1960's. I cannot give you the name of a single one.
It does not matter whether it was yesteryear or today. . . . . there are NO humane methods of dehorning adult cows. Not a single one. Even with anesthesia the animal still feels pain. And then there are the residual effects though breeders refuse to accept the cruelty or the ramifications. For instance, sinus infections. Those adult horns are open into the skull.
Dexter cattle were a horned breed. Your assumptions are just that. There is absolutely no evidence prior to the age of the flower children and beatniks that Dexters were dehorned, here or in England, and there is not a single pedigree I've seen that says so. There may have been an Irish polled breed in Ireland, but that which I have read says they were not plentiful nor is there any any record of them being crossed into the Dexter or Kerry breeds for that matter. If I recall, and I am not positive of this, but I think they were in a different geographic location. The truth is. . . . . the Irish prized their cattle and prized the horns on their cattle. That is how they portrayed their cattle. . . . .with horns.
As to the foundation animals. Not only did they have to win at a show, it had to be a Dexter show, and the animal was "inspected". You leave out vital and important information to make your assumptions seem to be true.
Kirk, what does it matter? Why must keep on and keep on? You are changing the minds of no one, and frankly many of those who got stuck in the financial trap of polled are disbursing as they can and replacing with preservation stock. They experience the difference. Here's a good question for you. Why did the importer not stick with the imports? Not talking about Chesterley because he really had no clue the polled were outcrossed. He just didn't like horns so one can assume anything else would do. However, the other half of that import barely used the polled lines at all. Went back to traditional lines. 'Splain dat. Think Zircons.
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Post by cddexter on Mar 26, 2018 22:42:14 GMT
"Not talking about Chesterley because he really had no clue the polled were outcrossed."
For anyone other than Judy reading this, Chesterley knew exactly what he was doing, including initially choosing a purebred Dexter from a recorded Angus upgrade many generations back to get the polled gene; later he decided to use a different line to get polled, one that according to the official DCS extended pedigree that came with Platinum's papers, was clean of polled from outcrossing.
For Judy, rewriting history to suit yourself is just par for the course. Say what you will, you're wrong about this one. Do I have to go back and find your old posts where you talk about how wonderful Fred was, how sharp he was, how knowledgeable? He liked Dexters, he just didn't like horns or dehorning.
Cheers, Carol.
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 27, 2018 1:19:49 GMT
I talked to Mr. Chesterley on three occasions. On nary a one of them was he able to answer ANY question about the polled bull. He insisted YOU were the one to speak with, that YOU knew all that information.
Mr. Chesterley registered THREE Dexters prior to 1994 when the SP registrations began according to the ADCA records. 1986, and 1987. One of them from a Hiyu breeding. So, he had little experience in the breed but he did have some acquaintance with you. The first polled registration was only entered into the herd books in what. . . . .1993? How did Mr. Chesterley come to know about the various "polled" animals in England? That information was not easy to come by and why would someone barely involved in breeding Dexter cattle be aware? Even members of ADCA leadership didn't have full knowledge of what was transpiring in England. So. . . . . WHO informed him? And why didn't he have better recall of the information if he was the investigating source. If it was all on him, how come he couldn't remember anything and referred ALL questions to you?
Fred Chesterley was 75 years old at the time of the first calf of SP on his farm, and prior to that he had been ill enough for there to be concern by those who knew him within the breed about his health.
Judy
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