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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 13, 2015 4:02:34 GMT
Looks like you finally have some new genetics to work with! Another fresh mutation! I guess it would be better if it was a bull, but since the dad can throw either way (according to the ad) maybe you can make a deal for him as well. Good luck! stlouis.craigslist.org/grd/4842198165.html |
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 13, 2015 4:10:52 GMT
Nah, think I'll pass on this one. Maybe you should reconsider since it looks as though the bull (?) might be a dwarf
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 13, 2015 11:08:21 GMT
We know you only breed for red so it doesn't fit in, but there must be somebody interested? After all Godstone Esmeralda was black too, you have to start somewhere...
I guess Kirk isn't interested either, because if the bull is a dwarf that means the heifer calf is going to be a GIANT compared to her parents! But he could be mistaken, the bull could be the holy grail of Dexters and "true short", not a dwarf with "lethal genes". I don't understand why nobody is jumping at this, the calf can be registered. Sure there is that pesky thing called parentage verification that is available now, but if the ADCA denies it entry, just lawyer up, though it might cost a bit more now that they have a hefty war chest.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 15:17:04 GMT
It does not sound like this person is intending to lie. someone really should send them a message. to let them know that this can not be.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 13, 2015 15:45:20 GMT
Mike, I agree with you that the seller is not intentionally lying. But I think that this is instructive to post here on Dextercattleworld for a number of reasons. I still don't know why there is skepticism on the part of some, I've heard repeatedly that fresh mutations occur all the time, and I doubt they'd be limited just to England. Why not St. Louis in the U.S.A? If this heifer is polled, it's only a matter of time until she produces a polled bull calf, bred to a nice horned bull. You could even flush her embryos if you couldn't wait for that to happen. For the polled breeders who are looking at the same names all the time when they gaze at their pedigrees it would be a welcome change don't you think?
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 13, 2015 16:35:30 GMT
But I think that this is instructive to post here on Dextercattleworld for a number of reasons. Sorry I don't agree with you. The only instructive thing I see is to embarrass him on this forum. I have the same opinion as Mike, contact the owner and explain or contact the regional director and have them explain. You could also send them to the ADCA website.
edited to add: If you don't want to contact them I will. This is something we had to deal with several times on the pedigree & genetics committee.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 13, 2015 17:05:36 GMT
Just curious Barb. Are you going to contact him and tell him there is no possible way that the two horned Dexters pictured could be the sire of the polled heifer he has for sale?
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Post by genebo on Jan 13, 2015 17:21:37 GMT
One thing that should raise a flag right away is the phrase "can be registered". That has causd so much grief to buyers in the past. If it's that easy to register the calf, the breeder should do it.
I'm tickled by the heifer's name, "Gerald". It makes me think of Johnny Cash's tune, "A Boy Named Sue".
It actually is possible for that bull to throw a polled calf, providing he bred a polled cow. The same applies to every horned bull.
I have two new calves running around in my pastures that would pass his polled test: They have no horns, either. .... Not yet.
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 13, 2015 17:40:44 GMT
First of all Hans, There is just to many unknowns about this ad. Since you posted the craigslist ad I think it should be your responsibility of taking care of it. As I previously mentioned "contact the regional director and have them explain. You could also send them to the ADCA website". Or the genetics and pedigree committee.
Here is another comment I made, but apparently you missed. "edited to add: If you don't want to contact them I will. This is something we had to deal with several times on the pedigree & genetics committee."
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 13, 2015 18:59:00 GMT
You don't even know if he's with the ADCA or PDCA. I'm not the Craigslist police, and it's like the wild west out there so buyer beware. The seller seems to know the difference between short and long legged after all.
You can't be consistent and dismiss the possibility that it is a polled calf out of two horned parents if you're so willing to accept that Godstone Esmeralda was out of two horned parents. Just from the photos, he doesn't appear to have much of a herd and they all look Dexter-like to me, including the horns on the others. If he does in fact have a fresh mutation you wouldn't want to deprive the seller out of the higher price he could obtain for such a game changing novel genetic mutation that is so popular would you? Or, it could be the opportunity of a lifetime for somebody willing to take a risk...think of all the polled breeders seeking some more genetic diversity that would beat a path to your door!
Gene, in one of the photos he states that the bull is on the right and the dam is on the left. Both are horned (they actually look like pretty nice Dexters. At 4 months old, assuming he's caught the heifer and felt, I would think horns would certainly be noticeable. The photo looks like a polled head, no characteristic curly tufts of hair showing.
Finally, if those two horned Dexters are registered, he could register that heifer calf without any questions asked about parentage. Sure, it may be a polled calf, but if you put horned in the drop down box nobody would question it. You could even genotype the heifer calf, and breed her to a polled bull, increase your odds of getting a polled calf from a heterozygous bull, and possibly even get a parentage verified homozygous polled Dexter bull or heifer out of the breeding.
A couple of years ago, when I had several polled ADCA Dexters here, we had some calves that developed horns. We dehorned them. When it was time to register them, I selected horned in the box. I was actually contacted by the registrar and told that they were likely polled, but had scurs, so they were registered as polled even though I was certain they were horned. Just a FYI there....
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Post by otf on Jan 13, 2015 21:06:56 GMT
A couple of years ago, when I had several polled ADCA Dexters here, we had some calves that developed horns. We dehorned them. When it was time to register them, I selected horned in the box. I was actually contacted by the registrar and told that they were likely polled, but had scurs, so they were registered as polled even though I was certain they were horned. Just a FYI there.... Oh wow, this is totally amazing! The registrar is authorized to do this? Scary, isn't it? Gale |
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 13, 2015 22:29:56 GMT
Your a real jerk Hans, posting someone's ad on here for people to speak about behind there back. What was real purpose for posting it here? WHY did you ask me if I was going to contact him in your previous post? Did I not also mention to many variable in the ad? Showing your true colors!!! and those colors are smudged and definitely not pretty. |
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Post by jamshundred on Jan 13, 2015 22:33:18 GMT
I have a better story. A breeder purchased a bull registered through Legacy. This bull was multiple generation parentage confirmed but ADCA wanted the MARKERS. Refused.
They were not necessary - the parentage verifications were sufficient. Large breeder said they would take their herd elsewhere. The bull was put in the registry as a COW to by pass the bull police. LOL. After a sufficient period of time sex was corrected.
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Post by jamshundred on Jan 13, 2015 22:39:39 GMT
I have seen a number of threads on another forum where Craigslist ads were discussed. I saw one breeder called everything but honest over a Craigslist sales ad, and I did not see a single voice raised in protest. I like it when life is consistent and peoples standards are consistent.
I am most concerned that the owner of those cattle thinks a horned bull can throw polled or horned. Even seasoned breeders make mistakes about polled/horned/scurs ( we can think of one famous polled cow registered as horned if we try only slightly). I have sympathy for this breeder. She needs a mentor. I'd contact her. . . . but I am still cleaning up the virus I got from Craigslist and I am not participating there at least until the days are longer than the nights!
Judy
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 13, 2015 23:14:06 GMT
Just an update. The ADCA regional director for that area will be taking care of this matter and contacting the individual.
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Post by genebo on Jan 14, 2015 0:57:29 GMT
I am so amazed that Barb would be passing as an advocate for compassion. Even on her home forum, she participated in bashing a photograph of a cow for sale with such vileness that Olga had to delete the entire thread. It was bad! Maybe instead of joining in the feeding frenzy, she could have contacted the cow's owner with some private, compassionate advice.  Consistency is not evident here. Especially when you stop to realize that the craigslist poster may end up in a ton of trouble over Barb turning him in to the ADCA. Besides, what is so special about another calf being born polled and then labeled a "Dexter"? At least this calf is not registered (thank goodness), so it may not have been DNA tested for anything, either. Before getting upset over this, there should at least be a parentage verification from a trustworthy lab. Then there should be a polled test. This might be a good time to fire up the discussion about parentage verification in the ADCA. |
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 14, 2015 1:07:43 GMT
Especially when you stop to realize that the craigslist poster may end up in a ton of trouble over Barb turning him in to the ADCA. Sorry Genebo, this is just not the case.
Aren't you banded from Olga's forum? Since that happened the forum has run smooth.
edited to add: Olga's forum is peaceful now, it's wonderful.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 14, 2015 1:20:53 GMT
Your a real jerk Hans, posting someone's ad on here for people to speak about behind there back. What was real purpose for posting it here? WHY did you ask me if I was going to contact him in your previous post? Did I not also mention to many variable in the ad? Showing your true colors!!! and those colors are smudged and definitely not pretty. Geez...I was only trying to help you with the opportunity to bring in polled lines other than those descended from Saltaire Platinum! And think of the possibilities, if the polled heifer from the horned parents was proven by parentage verification to be out of the horned parents, then the matter of a polled mutation out of Godstone Esmeralda's parents could be plausible to the rest of us, even Judy! Maybe these Dexters in Missouri are even Legacy qualified Dexters! Just think of all the bridges that could be finally mended between Barb, Carol D, Carol K, and Kirk among others, with Judy and Gene. You could all meet up at the AGM and maybe go out to dinner together and have a Dexter ribeye, except of course Judy and Gene for whom crow would be their meals. I'm sure you'd like to see that. I'm not questioning or making fun of the owner (craigslist poster) at all. You are actually the one doing so by dismissing this and contacting the ADCA before any action has taken place. Again, why are you so quick to dismiss the possibility of a polled calf out horned parents, when you are so unquestioning of the possibility of the same thing occurring with Godstone Esmeralda? The situations are identical, other than the country that it has occurred in and the fact that Godstone Esmeralda can not be parentage verified to her horned parents because they are deceased. I agree with Genebo, before dismissing this out of hand, perhaps the ADCA should pay for the DNA testing of the parents, and then sire and dam qualify the heifer calf. After all, unlike Godstone Esmeralda, both parents are available for DNA testing and therefore they can be verified as the parents of the heifer calf. Edited to add: I'm not mocking anybody behind their back. |
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Post by cascade on Jan 14, 2015 1:39:29 GMT
While accurate records concerning polled vs. horns are important, FAR MORE important is tracking lethal genes.
Why are lethal gene carriers allowed to be registered without being recorded as such?
A dexter with lethal genes that are not noted in the registry, is FAR MORE problematic than a dexter miss-coded for horn status or coat color.
PS. Polled mutations do occur (it's just a miss-copied horn regulator gene). The association should work with the owners to guide them through the process of pulling tail hairs on the parents and the calf and testing for a possible mutation (along with parentage verification).
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 14, 2015 1:47:25 GMT
You are actually the one doing so by dismissing this and contacting the ADCA before any action has taken place. Hans I think you should re-read this whole thread again. I will ask you another time, what was your intention with the posting of the craigslist ad to begin with? Here is my prior post: First of all Hans, There is just to many unknowns about this ad. Since you posted the craigslist ad I think it should be your responsibility of taking care of it. As I previously mentioned "contact the regional director and have them explain. You could also send them to the ADCA website". Or the genetics and pedigree committee.
Here is another comment I made, but apparently you missed. "edited to add: If you don't want to contact them I will. This is something we had to deal with several times on the pedigree & genetics committee."YOU did not want to be the craigslist police or at the very least try to help this person. Judy even offered to do so if she didn't have prior craigslist problems. What "action has taken place" are you talking about. The director was more than understanding when I talked with them. It is up to the individual who registers an animals to prove who and what it is, not the ADCA or PDCA. There were times though that I thought the ADCA should help with funds in certain cases in which multiple owners could have been effected. |
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jan 14, 2015 2:04:58 GMT
Aren't you banded from Olga's forum? Since that happened the forum has run smooth. edited to add: Olga's forum is peaceful now, it's wonderful.
And you missed the action so much you came here  |
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Post by Donlin Stud on Jan 14, 2015 2:21:06 GMT
At the time and being very shiny and new to Dexters, I didn’t think much about it after speaking with the breeder who re assured me that two horned parents cannot produce a Polled calf and the little heifer I was enquiring about will eventually begin to grow her horns.
Our new little heifer did not have hair swirls at 4mths of age and not until she was 5.5mths old did she start to have the little horn peaks show through.
Given this conversation and many others I have read – in hindsight I should have taken monthly photos of said heifer.
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 14, 2015 2:26:47 GMT
Sorry apparently you have once again missed what I have said, are you sure your reading all the posts?
An earlier comment of mine: "Let's not forget the only reason I am still on this forum is because of Hans using my website here for what I feel is a despicable reason. If you have a problem with me being here take it up with him"
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Post by emgiger on Jan 14, 2015 3:00:23 GMT
Let me preface this post with the fact that I am a Dexter breeder with both polled and dehorned stock. I am not a traditionalist or a polled breeder, just someone who is working for the betterment of our breed. I have no angst nor ax to grind for either side of the horned vs polled debate. I have worked with and assisted members from both sides of the isle (including Judy) to help in any way I can.
Hans, I have read many of your posts on different forums and consider you extremely knowledgeable with a great deal to offer those reading here and elsewhere. I thoroughly enjoy reading about your experiences in Michigan with the weather and love seeing pictures of your stock. That said, I am completely taken aback by this thread. You are making light of what is most likely an honest mistake by a fellow Dexter owner. The person who posted the ad is completely unable to defend him/herself or their actions. I can only the imagine the humility and embarrassment this thread would cause this person if they read it. Please, please, remember that we are in this together. We need to build each other up, not tear each other down.
Eileen
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 14, 2015 3:01:03 GMT
What a lame excuse. All I did was take a link to a webpage that was available to anybody who cared to search that showed a Cascade breeding. Maybe if Kirk wouldn't get on here to constantly bash dwarf Dexters I wouldn't have felt the need to point out that his "true-short" Dexters truly are not short after all. That you bought into his sales pitch is not my fault. But you do mention you occasionally sell some of your "prized breeding stock". For those of you who are wondering what keeps Barb here on this site here is a link to the page. Scroll toward the bottom to see the Cascade version of true short. web.archive.org/web/20140517171609/http://legendrockranch.com/ |
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Post by jamshundred on Jan 14, 2015 3:41:07 GMT
I am using my mobile and not my computer and I have yet to figure out how to do the quotes
Barb. Step back to the beginning and start over with a different thought process ( now this IS something I can absolutely mentor on because Kirk has been keeping me whipped into shape). Just as his antics can push buttons I can see how the first approach by a polled breeder would have steam coming out the ears! But if you stop a minute and see it with the humor ( and Hans has a great humor) it is RoFL funny. I mean he nailed every seam that could rile ya and you played right into it. I can see the side that the young ( I am guessing- for sure inexperienced) owner would probably be aghast at the error which gave us a good laugh. Kind of like cracking up when someone walks out of the bathroom with toilet paper hanging down from the waistband. A good laugh at someone else' expense but not with any intent to actually harm. I think involving ADCA was outside the box ---that perhaps a friendly owner inquiring and starting a dialogue would have been better.
On the dark side. That was an unfair comment to Gene. I wish you knew him as I do... I wish you could know the man who is so passionate and caring of his Dexters and other folks as well. I wish you could know the man that would likely hop in his mule and drive to Texas to help you if he knew you needed it and there was none coming from elsewhere. This is a fellow who jumped in his vehicle and drove an hour (could have been a bit more) and helped a brand new owner who had been delivered Dexters from another breeder who unloaded where fence was not adequate and the cows leaped it and took off into the countryside. Gene helped him search for those cows. Having heard me voice fears I would not have enough hay for the winter he was going to load up his little livestock trailer and drive more than three hours to bring me hay. This is a good and kind person and what Olga did to play to the choir and spite Gene for his links to this forum will have Karma attached. She attempted to humiliate a good person that had never wronged her in any way or anyone else either. it was an unsupportable act of peevishness and you rubbing his nose in it is mean. Gene helped Olga build that forum from day one. He went out and solicited participants. Everywhere that Dexters were discussed Gene invited them to that board. I never saw him call anyone a name, use a curse word or type profanity. Always a perfect gentleman. Cranky on occasion when you all would gang up on him perhaps but always a gentlemen's cranky. You get cranky here on occasion Barb. Imagine if your rights were violated with so little cause. I am dead serious. Serious as a heart attack. You think on that please. Gene did nothing to hurt that forum and was there to answer any question and brag on those Dexters he adores with every fiber of his being.
JudyJudy
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 14, 2015 4:00:42 GMT
Another update about the craigslist ad. Received an e-mail from the director with correspondence from the people who posted the ad.
"Thank you for taking your time to contacting me on our heifer. My wife and I are new to the breeding aspect and would not want to miss lead anyone." There was more to the e-mail, basically an explanation on what they had thought. I would also like to note that the director mentioned to me in an e-mail "takes a village to monitor the internet!" She also gave them names of people who are looking for heifers. So hopefully it will be a winning situation for them.
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 14, 2015 4:15:10 GMT
Judy you have your opinions and I have mine.
I know exactly what I am saying, so I played into no one hands. As for Genebo I guess others thought differently. From what I understand there were several times he was warned. He even went so far as deleting quite a few of his posts as to leave other reading the thread wondering what was going on.
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 14, 2015 4:29:47 GMT
For those of you who are wondering what keeps Barb here on this site here is a link to the page. Scroll toward the bottom to see the Cascade version of true short. Well it was you that put my website up. Others could have searched for it, but you did it! I guess you just want to help them out. Again for those just now reading this, it is not the fact that my website was put up, it was the intent to discredit another breeder using my website to do it.
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Post by wvdexters on Jan 14, 2015 4:46:35 GMT
Wow, So much for pace and a sense of humor?? Really dropped the ball early on that one. Not sure if it was 24 hrs even.
Come on guys. (No names) Just relax a bit and take a breather... You gotta be able to see the humor here! Because that's what it was meant as. You just gotta hand it to him, he made the bed up so well, and you all jumped right in.  And he did get you's pretty good. LOL!!
And on the same funny note. Kirk you did well!! You caught right on. And an excellent job of answering to the post, while not answering to it and changing the subject at the same time. Well done. 
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And he did get you's pretty good. LOL!!