Trying to create a pseudo short legged Dexter

[genebo]

For years, there have been some Dexter owners who have claimed to have developed a substitute for a short legged Dexter by selectively breeding down the size of larger cattle. They called them almost anything they could dream up that would get across the idea that they had an acceptable substitute for a dwarf, short legged, chondro carrier Dexter.

We who own and live among our mixed herds of Dexters, can readily point out the difference we notice between our shorties and our long legged Dexters. Yet the most stubborn of those who are searching for a substitute refuse to accept our testimony. They insist that any Dexter they can make as short as a dwarf Dexter is the same.

In an issue of Scientific American, dated August 13, 2010, an article appeared titled "Changing Minds: Has Selective Breeding Restructured Some Dog Brains?"

The same topic has not been approached using dwarf Dexter cattle as a subject, but some valuable information can be drawn from within the article about dogs.

It is quoted here:

"The dogs with the shortest skulls—such as the pit bull, Akita and shih tzu cross—demonstrated significant brain reorganization. In short-snouted dogs, not only had the brain's cerebral hemispheres rotated forward by as much as 15 degrees, the olfactory lobes had shifted position from the front of the brain toward the base of the skull. The brains of puglike dogs did not sit inside the skull in the same way as brains of long-snouted dogs, whose skulls and brains more closely match those of the domestic dog's wolf ancestor. In other words, the findings imply that when selective breeding by humans squashed the snouts of certain dog breeds, it also morphed their brains.

"The whole brain had rotated in more puglike dogs," Valenzuela says, "and the olfactory lobe had shifted to the bottom of the skull. There was quite a high correlation, a linear relationship, between short-skulledness and forward rotation of brain. And although there were no differences between breeds in the volume of the olfactory lobe, the position of the olfactory lobe changed in short-skulled dogs."

Because these effects were consistent across a wide range of skull shapes and were independent of body weight and brain size, the researchers determined that brain organization is most strongly linked to skull length as opposed to other anatomical variables. ...."

Our dwarf Dexters are the result of a condition that tends to shorten the body's long bones, resulting in the obvious short legs. It also shortens the skulls, making for the broad faces.

It is this shortening of the bones that is so notably similar to the dogs mentioned in the Scientific American article. This might very well be one of the causative factors for the differences which we report in our dwarf Dexters, as compared to our non-dwarf Dexters. Most noteworthy is the gentler temperament. There is the possibility there are other areas of influence caused by the dwarfism, including a more efficient metabolism and better marbling of the beef.

[lakeportfarms]

That's an interesting observation about skull size, or probably more accurately dimension or shortness.  With our separate groups of dwarf (shortie) cows and long legged bull, and dwarf (shortie) bull and long legged cows  there is a definite difference in behavior between the two groups.  I believe that the running of separate herds like this further distinguishes the differences as opposed to running a "mixed" herd of short and long cows with a long legged bull.

The short (dwarf) Dexters are therefore not subjected to the more active long legged, and therefore move at their own more deliberate and slow pace.  Imagine taking some long legged Dexters of moderate size and placing them with a herd of Angus, or Simmental, or some other large breed.  I think you'd find that the Dexters were at a distinct disadvantage to the larger breed, and would be negatively affected as a result.

P.S. Kirk, our long leg Dexters are not very tall all all, in case you're going to bring that up again...most would meet your criteria of "true short".  We formed much of our initial herd from mature adult Dexters, so we could accurately gauge their conformation and size from the start.  As a result, their calves have also matured or are on track to maturing at that smaller size.  I may be forgetting a couple, but we have 3-4 Dexters (out of over 100 now) that I would consider larger than ideal (but they're still within the breed guidelines)

[genebo]

I've had my share of "false dwarf" Dexters. For a very long time, every one of Brenn's offspring grew to be shorter than its mother, regardless of breed. Some could not be determined whether they were short legged or long legged by their height. Yet the traits that belong exxclusively to the shorties were apparent, and subsequent DNA tests proved it.

The air space under their bodies was the first sign of a dwarf. The distance between the front and rear legs was longer than the distance from their belly to the ground. The space looked like a rectangle. Non-dwarfs looked like a square. The faces of a dwarf were recognizable. Wider and shorter front to rear. A dwarf moved slower and was less ready to become upset. Whenever the herd stampeded across the pasture, the dwarfs were generally the last to join the stampede and trailed the herd. Dwarfs are more eager to approach humans. Most of my Dexters came to me to be petted at about 4 months old. Of those that came to me earlier, most were shorties.

Dwarf Dexters seem to be more efficient at converting feed. During times when it might be difficult for cattle to maintain their condition, the dwarf Dexter stands out. I have never seen one that wasn't in good condition.
The list goes on of the special traits of a dwarf Dexter. The false dwarfs may have matched them in height, but not in the other aspects. Anyone who says that a non-dwarf that is the same height as a true dwarf is the dwarf's equal is ignoring a lot of testimony to the contrary. Most of the people who would tll you that do not own dwarf Dexters and have no basis for comparison. For their own purposes, they want to put down whatever it is that they don't have, thinking this will elevate what they do have. Let's hope it doesn't work.

I love all my Dexters. Just as a mother says, I love them all. That is a fact. Another fact is that I love some of them just a teeny bit better.

[lonecowhand]

I love that! ("just a teeny bit better.")

I'm going to look back at a lot of these photos and see about the rectangle vs. the square , that had not occurred to me! Thanks Gene!

When I was a kid, my folks had Irish Setters, back then an excellent hunting dog. I noted over the years as the dogs became more fashionable as show dogs, that they got a smaller brain case with a long ridge of bone taking up the space. They also became dumber than a box of rocks, and then fell out of popularity. I don't know if you can find one now.

That could happen to any breed of critter.

[genebo]

The rectangle vs the square works best on newborns. As they age, the body tends to grow toward the ground That makes them all look more rectangular.

It is the disproportionate distance between the body length and the short legs that creates the illusion that dwarfs have longer bodies. Show judges like long bodies, due to their beef breed training. Finding a long body without an accompanying long neck means to them, more top quality cuts vs hamburger. Money in their pockets. Our dwarfs actually go them one better. The beef yield is automatically better on a short legged Dexter, because the legs are removed after the live weight is taken and before the hanging weight is taken. Shorter legs means less weight thrown away.

Any time that man takes the resposibility for making breeding choices, the results can go either way: better or worse. Look at the example of A1 beta casein in cows' milk. Man happily reproduced that for years and years, not noticing the side effects.

Check out the progeny reports on Woodmagic Wheatear, and her son, Aldebaren Priapus. Back in the 1980's several breeders were very busy reproducing PHA carriers into the American herd. Between 1984 and 1989, oris Crowe, Carol Davidson, Fred Chesterley, George Walker and others bred 36 calves from Aldebaren Priapus, a PHA carrier, without knowing what they were spreading. It is a huge responsibility to take on, to alter the genetic makeup of a breed. Man just isn't that smart.

Way back when I was taking classes in botany, we were assigned to reproduce plants, searching for new varieties we could introduce into the commercial stream. I was told to wrap an apple leaf bud in cotton and dab some radium fluid on the cotton. The idea was for the radiation to cause a mutation in the bud. Then I had to graft that single bud onto a root stock and grow the tree, so the fruit could be evaluated. I grew no genetically modified fruit that was a keeper that way. Thank goodness. It bothered me that I was being taught to do something like that. It seemed so unethical, and dangerous.

There are a lot who have no reservations about doing something like that. They are the ones we are hoping will lose in their efforts to modify Dexter cattle. I really, truly hope they either lose or get a conscience before it's too late.

[cascade]

Gene, How many ADULT Chondro-Dwarf Cows (females) do you have on your farm right now?... Can you please show pictures so we can see them all

[genebo]

If you had read many of my posts, you would know that I do not keep dwarf Dexter cows. Instead, I have chosen to keep a dwarf Dexter bull.

My dwarf heifers are always sold before reaching breeding age. They go to farms where the herd bull is a non-dwarf.

It deprives me of the company of some lovely dwarf Dexter cows, but I don't regret my choice. I so thoroughly enjoy my dwarf Dexter bull that it more than makes up for it.

Now when the time comes to replace my bull, I may choose to keep a non-dwarf bull again. I already have one here, McBrenn of Paradise, Brenn's son out of Bambi of Paradise. He's only 9 months old, but he shows the same size and conformation as Armstrong of Paradise showed at his age. McBrenn may grow to be a false dwarf if his height stays short, like Armstrong's did.

The only problem with keeping McBrenn as my herd bull is that my non-dwarf cows will only produce non-dwarf calves with him. I dearly love the time I get to spend with my young dwarf heifers, before they leave. I would surely miss that. The demand for dwarf Dexters is so high, and I would not be able to meet any of it until I stocked up with some dwarf Dexter cows. I haven't been tracking any to buy for a long time.

I finally got a dwarf Dexter heifer out of Legacy Eve of Paradise. She is tiny, and has already been tested and confirmed to be a dwarf. She is A2/A1 and carries Ms Fermoy's red color. I'm torn between selling her and trying to hold her here long enough to have her bred to Adam One of Paradise. I don't have the right facilities to isolate her from Brenn, and he is a very strong breeder. Keeping her with him would be a risk. I don't recommend that others keep male and female dwarfs together, so I reckon I shouldn't do it, either.

I do have a steer here that is the son of Brenn and a dwarf Dexter cow that came here to be bred. That was a long and arduous negotiation to get me to let Brenn breed the dwarf Dexter cow, but the owner wanted it sooo badly, and enlisted the help of several prominient Dexter breeders to convince me. So it happened and the little cow had a bull calf. Total disappointment! That is why he was steered early on. That and his Lucifer ancestry. I ended up buying him back, just so I could taste the beef that Brenn's offspring produces. I've heard so much praise for it and I'd never tasted it, myself. I'm pretty sorry about bringing him here. He's a rapscallion, a scoundrel, a true butthead. He scares my wife and the wonderful couple that came her twice a day to help while I was recuperating. I tried to give him away, but failed.

On other threads you can find pictures of Jackson, the steer and Cathy, the little dwarf Dexter heifer.

I hope you don't try to draw any conclusions about an animal by looking at a still photograph of it.

[lakeportfarms]

Gene:

[lakeportfarms]

Kirk, if you want to come and see a whole pasture of shorties, hop in your car and follow I-90 to I-94, and follow it until you see a big sign with a Canadian flag on the left, and an American flag on the right. Follow the American flag until the expressway ends. Pull into the Duty Free parking area and let me know you're here. I'll drive down and lead you to our farm, where you can go walk among the little waist high and less, 14 year old dwarf shorties (how old is your oldest cow, anyway?). You can have a handful of alfalfa cubes and feed them as they gather around you begging for a cube from you, without feeling the least bit nervous about a herd that you're unfamiliar with. Then you can hop over (well, actually you may just have to step over because the snow is so deep) the 3 board wood fence (no electric on it) and sit down on the 6 year old horned TRADITIONAL pedigree shortie bull as he's having a rest.  If you time it right, you may get to see one of the cows calving a little shortie 25 lb. bull or heifer, and watch them pop up within a few minutes to walk under mom's belly to find the teats to have a drink.

You'll save yourself a lot of time, even with the long drive here and back to Oregon.  You'll finally understand what it is that makes the dwarf shortie Dexter so appealing to us and so many others, and you won't have to spend so much time on this board trying to convince us (with no chance of success) that anything out there in the Dexter world compares to our dwarf Dexters.

P.S.  We have more shortie Dexter cows than you have in your entire herd, and that is only a portion of our herd.

P.S.S  Oh, and I'm still wondering what happened to the photos of the Steer/Bull that you had on the other thread.  Why did you remove them so we can no longer see them?  I'm thinking it must have been a bull (are you not proud of that particular bull?), because he had a pretty bad rub mark on the top of his muzzle from having worn a halter too long, and I can't for the life of me figure out why you would want to halter train a steer anyway, when if he was a steer he'd be destined for the freezer/culled....we hardly touch our steers between the time they've been banded and they're processed.

[cascade]

Feb 12, 2015 22:57:47 GMT genebo said:

If you had read many of my posts, you would know that I do not keep dwarf Dexter cows.

We must have tons in common, because I don't keep any lethal-gene carrying Dwarf Dexter Cows either,  and if I had any, I'd get rid of them very fast too.

Hey, we could start a club for people who have no dwarf cows.   You could be president, Dexterfarms can be vice president, and I'll just be a founding member.

[genebo]

Kirk,

You come on to me as if you are finally going to become a human being, and then you pull this crap, spouting your trash talk.

I warn you, do not steal any of my pictures to use in your campaign of terror against Dexter cattle.

Don't write to me again. Your preferred Angus based cattle have killed more cows and calves with large calf dystocia than chondrodysplasia has since 2004. You are choosing to remain ignorant, when you could just as easily let the knowledge in, instead of denying it.

Does a bovine carries the genes that make large, dystocia-prone calves, is that gene properly called a lethal gene? No, don't answer that. Go back home and tell that to your co-conspirators.

By the way, did you understand what I wrote earlier about your hero, who introduced more offspring from a PHA positive bull into the US than anybody else? It is in the records and you can understand it yourself if you'd only try. Lethal? You don't know the meaning of the term and to what it could be applied.

Please go away.

[cascade]

I'm just surprised that you have "NO Chondro-Dwarf Cows", especially since you try to talk everyone else into getting some. I assumed you had bunches of Dwarf Cows. If you go to great lengths to avoid keeping Chondro-Dwarf Cows yourself, why would you want others to get some?


PS. We've had over 100 dexter calves born on our farm and only had to help 1 mom in all those births and that was years ago.  There is no record of any Angus in ANY dexters that I've ever heard of. Can you please post the exact record that has given you that likely wrong belief? I'll wait here for that record.  I've asked for this lots of times any you guys can't come up with anything.

[lakeportfarms]

Feb 13, 2015 3:09:50 GMT cascade said:

I'm just surprised that you have "NO Chondro-Dwarf Cows", especially since you try to talk everyone else into getting some. I assumed you had bunches of Dwarf Cows. If you go to great lengths to avoid keeping Chondro-Dwarf Cows yourself, why would you want others to get some?


PS. We've had over 100 dexter calves born on our farm and only had to help 1 mom in all those births and that was years ago.  There is no record of any Angus in ANY dexters that I've ever heard of. Can you please post the exact record that has given you that likely wrong belief? I'll wait here for that record.  I've asked for this lots of times any you guys can't come up with anything.

Kirk, you haven't RSVP'd to my invitation to come and see (near as I can figure off the top of my head) our over 50 dwarf shortie Dexters.  You can see at least a half dozen over the age of 14 years old too, with their little calves running around.

Larger size Dexters can handle larger sized calves.  I've seen some of your giant Dexters (shall I post some more photos stored elsewhere on the internet that you can't remove like you did the less flattering photos from your public photobucket page?) and I'm sure they can handle 60 lb. calves without any difficulty.
The problem I think stems from breeders who have horned, and in many cases horned from more traditional lines and phenotypes, that think that they would like some polled calves.  So they get themselves a homozygous polled bull and end up with the giant 60 plus pound calves that the dam is not equipped to handle well.  I know I have a number of non-chondro cows here that would have a hard time handling a 60 pounder.  

A few days ago one of our cows calved.  We had a guest and I was showing him the Dexters in the barn, and I saw the early stages.  I asked him if he'd like to stay and watch, but it was snowing pretty hard out and he had a long drive home.  He was probably afraid I was going to recruit him to reach in there and pull the calf out...lol.  So we quickly took care of the paperwork and payment, loaded the two fainting goats he purchased into his van and off he went.  It wasn't more than 5 minutes.  I went back out to the barn and I was too late.  She had calved, and the calf was already up and looking for his first drink.  After mom had a chance to lick him for a bit I walked into the stall and picked him up to put him on the scale.  He was definitely a shortie, and 27.5 lbs.

A customer of ours had a similar situation with a shortie heifer, it wasn't more than 5 minutes.  The wife went out to check, and 5 minutes later the husband went out and there was a shortie heifer on the ground.  Too bad it happened so fast though, because they have 5 kids and I'm sure they would have loved to see her calve. That shortie heifer will be joining our farm later this summer, in exchange for a larger steer since the Dexter steer they have isn't quite a year old, and they would like some beef this year.  A win/win for us both.

Have you had any that small?

Here is our experiment, and experience with a polled bull.  Never again:

[Deleted]

I dont want to be a part of your club kirk. True I currently have no dwarfs now. I have only ever had one he was born here and steered because he was PHA he was also not Legacy. My wife liked him and did not want me to take him to the processor but we are not raising pets here so off he went. He was calm and he was friendly but I can assure you he could run around and play. 
I have been seeking a Legacy Dwarf and have had no luck convincing anyone to part with one. I know of exactly 5 in existence and none for sale. So I hope one day to have one.

[lonecowhand]

I really can't believe anyone has so much vemon for such a small population of cows, especially never having seen one!

What's the point? Just to make peoples lives less pleasant? And then hypocritically pretend to make nice, I'm your fwend?

Grow up. Get a life.

[cascade]

Calves under 30-35 pounds suffer from too low birth-weight and that can subject them to all sorts of ills and problems.
Low birth-weight in humans (and animals) is a significant sign of health problems or genetic disease.

Further, by selecting for too-low birth-weights, you may be also selecting for moms that are unable to give birth to a robust calf in the normal range.

Ideal weights for Dexter calves are 40 - 55 pounds. A little more and a little less than that can be ok, but Too large and too small should both be avoided.

Out of over 110 polled calves bred on our farm, we have only had to help one mom in giving birth. The moms just drop healthy calves out in the field and we rarely pay much attention, except to go tag them when they are a few hours old. The horned breeder near us has the same experience... there really isn't any birthing difference between the horned and polled Dexters.

It's best to select for animals that have ease-in-calving with robust calves (not too small), rather than selecting for extra low birth-weights

beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_birth_weight_versus

[lakeportfarms]

Nonsense Kirk, our most robust calves are the 30 lb. chondro carriers. The article you link to discusses the relationship between calving weights and weaning weights. I really don't care too much that our weaning weights are lower than the Angus breed, or even if they're a bit lower than the majority of Dexters out there. You can't have short (unless they're chondro) without having lower weaning and finishing weights.

[otf]

lakeport, did a vet do a necropsy on that calf in the photo? What was the cause of death?


Gale

[lakeportfarms]

Feb 14, 2015 14:07:58 GMT otf said:

lakeport, did a vet do a necropsy on that calf in the photo? What was the cause of death?


Gale

Gale, we took him to Michigan State University, and the determination was that it was dystocia.  We went to the farm because of another cow, Shamrock Louise, and they offered Debbie to us (Louise's daughter).  She was sired by a polled bull, Hercules, but Debbie was horned,  Debbie was 14 months old, and she had just been bred back again  (unconfirmed) to her father, Hercules.  Sheril and I were a bit nervous about that, because Hercules was a pretty big polled bull compared to what we were used to seeing with our horned bulls and cows, but we decided to let it stand, and hoped we would get a bull calf that we could steer.

The calving date was near, and we had Debbie in a stall and were watching her closely.  We left the night before for home, and arrived early in the morning on a Sunday to find two dry legs sticking out of Debbie, and so we immediately called the vet and got the gloves and went in to see if the head was in the proper place.  It was, so we started pulling.  We actually saw tongue movement and got the head out and were a bit shocked at how large it was.  Getting the shoulders and belly were a different matter, and we had to do some pretty hard pulling. At that point the calf had died, and so I pulled with all my might and got the calf out.  We were shocked at the size of it.  Debbie was just lying down and looked like she was in bad shape.  We did our best to comfort her and waited for the vet.  I weighed the calf and it was just shy of 63 lbs.!  Mike's calves had always been around 30 lbs.  Debbie took quite a bit of time to get up, and we had to treat her with some antibiotics, Banamine, and Dexamethasone to help the healing process.  We had to keep her separate from the bull for more than 6 months to allow her to heal.  There were a number of times when we saw that she was having pain even 3 months later.  

I have some pretty strong feelings following this incident about calving weights and sizes.

[genebo]

One of the things I like best about my Dexters is the calving ease. Our soil is very deficient in selenium. This leads to problems in birthing. My cows have avoided these problems mainly due to the small size of the calaves we throw here and an aggressive mineral plan to prevent selenium deficiency in the cows.

We are actually fighting low calcium as well as low selenium, but it is low selenium that is supposed to affect the birthing so much.

I was told to expect hardening of the uterine walls from low selenium. This could cause the calves to live in cramped space, since the uterine walls don't expand readily enough to allow room. This can cause calves to be born with bent legs, that straighten over a few days, but can be crippling at first. It causes the calf to be born with weaker muscles, since it couldn't exercise them within the uterus. It can cause dystocia, since the calf may be unable to turn into the perfect position for birth. I can cause the calf to be born with weak lung muscles. It can cause white muscle disease in the calf.

Every one of the problems that low selenium can cause, except white muscle disease, are lessened by having small birth weight calves.

My vet told me to help this out by having the cow bred back promptly, so the new calf will develop while she is nursing the newborn. Avoid the temptation to give extra feed to the cow during the last months of her pregnancy. Making her fat and increasing the size of her calf are both bad.

So I have 3 things helping me avoid birthing problems: genetics for smaller calves, a selenium boosting program, and a good dietary plan to avoid oversize calves. I have been really fortunate in having trouble-free births.

[nicosteintjesholland]

Feb 12, 2015 16:38:16 GMT genebo said:

I've had my share of "false dwarf" Dexters. For a very long time, every one of Brenn's offspring grew to be shorter than its mother, regardless of breed. Some could not be determined whether they were short legged or long legged by their height. Yet the traits that belong exxclusively to the shorties were apparent, and subsequent DNA tests proved it.

The air space under their bodies was the first sign of a dwarf. The distance between the front and rear legs was longer than the distance from their belly to the ground. The space looked like a rectangle. Non-dwarfs looked like a square. The faces of a dwarf were recognizable. Wider and shorter front to rear. A dwarf moved slower and was less ready to become upset. Whenever the herd stampeded across the pasture, the dwarfs were generally the last to join the stampede and trailed the herd. Dwarfs are more eager to approach humans. Most of my Dexters came to me to be petted at about 4 months old. Of those that came to me earlier, most were shorties.

Dwarf Dexters seem to be more efficient at converting feed. During times when it might be difficult for cattle to maintain their condition, the dwarf Dexter stands out. I have never seen one that wasn't in good condition.
The list goes on of the special traits of a dwarf Dexter. The false dwarfs may have matched them in height, but not in the other aspects. Anyone who says that a non-dwarf that is the same height as a true dwarf is the dwarf's equal is ignoring a lot of testimony to the contrary. Most of the people who would tll you that do not own dwarf Dexters and have no basis for comparison. For their own purposes, they want to put down whatever it is that they don't have, thinking this will elevate what they do have. Let's hope it doesn't work.

I love all my Dexters. Just as a mother says, I love them all. That is a fact. Another fact is that I love some of them just a teeny bit better.

Hello gene,
I recognise the rectangle-square story. And it's thru, every animal got more rectangled when it grows up, but a non-short never becomes as rectangled as a short.
The rest of your story about efficient growing, condition and character doesn't make sense to me. Never seen that before, never read before, never heard before. I don't see a link between the bulldoggene and character.

In the UK most short animals are served when they are about 3 years old. Non-shorts are normally mated since they are 15 months. They can have their second calf when the shorties are running with the bull for the first time.

about beef efficiency, you are right, the beef is the same, but there are less bones.

[Donlin Stud]

Hi Nicosteintjesholland

We have 11 dwarfs ranging from 11 years to just 5 months of age.

Our non-dwarfs always require special attention to their feed requirements at certain times of the year and/or when calves are reaching the 5-6 month mark. I cant think of any time we have had to offer the same attention to feed requireemnts to any of our dwarf mums.

However I do have to add at this point we do have two non-dwarf cows whose weight and condition barely falters as their calves age or winter/summer hit hard. But they are the exception in the non-dwarfs.

Dwarf calves do approach us humans more eagerly and earlier than most non-dwarf calves. We have had the exceptions with the non dwarfs but never had a dwarf calf keep its distance for any period of time.

We are a young stud and have only now been able to sync calf arrivals into a small window once a year which will see our heifers of both non-dwarf and dwarfs not joined until after their second birthday with calving only 6-8 weeks before their 3rd birthday.
And we are fortunate enough that our breeding bulls do produce lower-than-average weight calves - with a couple of the boys really assisting in birth weight control to within a few kilos irrespective of the dam and her dwarf status.

[nicosteintjesholland]

Hello Donna,
I believe your story, and I believe that Gene has the same experience. But from the many many cows I've seen in Europe I can't remember one herd were the shorts (dwarfs) were more friendly/approaching than the non-shorts.
I must say there is a big difference between herds and between progeny of certain bulls.
In my herd I had 2 shorts and one non-short which were not as approachable as I would. They are all from the same line.

Maybe it's the way of approaching from you to the animal, that the shorties feel that you like them more??? Just guesing..

I'll certainly investigate this item in our society.

greets Nico

[Deleted]

I had a dwarf steer here. He was friendlier than the others and at a younger age. He did not get any extra attention because he was destine for the freezer. I would pet him when he came up to me but i never went out of my way to make friends with him.

[genebo]

Nicosteintjesholland,

The differences in growth and demeanor between short legged and long legged Dexters is not a tremendous amount. It is a very subtle amount, probably unable to be seen by those who do not have both types on their farm. It is, however, fairly obvious to those of us that do. We develop likes for our Dexters, based upon these traits. We end up liking one or more more than we do some others. It's the same kind of preference we exhibit when we choose a mate. Maybe he or she is not distinctly different from others, but becomes the only one for us.

That is how I feel about my dwarf Dexters. Invariably, they are the most likeable and seem to like me a little more. Whenever one of the non-dwarf Dexters turns out to be as good and nice as the dwarf, it is noteworthy. It is one of the goals I set for my Dexter offspring. I want ALL of the calves to inherit the fine disposition and conformation of my dwarf bull.

As far as times to breed, your rules are way off from mine. For years I have run a family herd here. That means one bull, 5 cows and calves. The bull manages his herd, with free choice of when to breed the heifers. The results would surprise those who weren't aware of the concept. When left to their own devices, the heifers were bred at 11 to 15 months. Most were bred at 13 months and only one went as long as 15 months to get bred.

All of the heifers that were brought here to be bred, that were over 2 years old, took some time to settle. Three year old sisters took months to settle. A 4 year old heifer had failed 4 attempts at AI by a highly reputed vet, with an almost perfect succes rate. He arranged for her to come here for live service. She failed to be bred on first attempt. She refused to stand for the bull during her first heat cycle. I always claim that my cows had "the talk" with her, because she settled the next cycle and bore a healthy bull calf.

Among other overage heifers, one was finally bred, but slipped the calf sometime along the way. Two others refused to raise their calf. One was bottle fed, the other died.

I am against making heifers wait to be bred. The 15 month old rule is convenient for making sure that the calf is born the same month that the mother was. If your farm runs on a single calving time each year, this could be beneficial. I don't know of a scientific reason for waiting a specific time to breed a Dexter.

Twice my family herd was disturbed. Once by the introduction of a newly castrated steer and a different time by the introduction of another steer. In both cases, the youngster's actions prompted the older herd bull to push them aside and breed a heifer that I considered way too young.

The first time, Bambi of Paradise was only 8 months old. She came into heat at the introduction of the handsome steer. She delivered a healthy bull calf, Edan of Paradise, in June of2009, when she was only 17 months old. Unassisted, with no complications. She licked him and cleaned him and nursed him. He is now a prize possession of a farmer in North Carolina. Bambi maintained good condition throughout.

Bambi was picked as the best looking of my cows and was selected to carry one of Ms Fermoy's embryos. She gave birth to Legacy Eve of Paradise in June of 2010. Lovely, vigorous calf, born without assistance. Evidently starting her breeding life early was no handicap.

Bambi gave birth to Bennan of Paradise 12 months later. Unassisted. Bennan went on to win the Adult Senior Heifer Class at the 2012 ADCA AGM. Bambi throws good calves.

11 months later, Bambina of Paradise. 11 months after that, Bantrybeth of Paradise. 13 months later, McBrenn of Paradise.

Two of Bambi's calves are still here, as a part of my highest quality breeding stock. Along with Bambi.

The second time my family herd was disrupted I didn't even know it had happened. I had brought a steer here to be fattened. One that had been castrated long before. It still caused the same jealousy and Dara Inion got bred too early. It was discovered when she was old enough to be cycling, but wasn't. A vet check showed that not only was she bred, it was too late to do anything about it. She was along for the ride, no matter how it turned out. The horror stories I had been told had me on pins and needles. I spent a lot of money having the vet come. Finally she had an uneventful birth. I got a lot of pictures. She became a wonderful mother. She was also just 17 months old when she calved.

Both of these young Dexter heifers had outstandig calves. Bambi went on to a very productive life and isn't through, yet. Both of them will make an impact on the Dexter herd in America.

1/2 of the calves in these examples were dwarfs. 1/2 were non-dwarf. I enjoyed the company of the dwarf calves, then sold them, for I keep a dwarf bull. I kept some of the non-dwarf calves long enough for them to be bred before selling them. I have kept one of the most recent bulls as a potential replacement herd bull. I can safely keep two bulls right now, because I have no heifers of breeding age. I have one dwarf heifer, only 7 weeks old, that will be sold before she reaches 7 months old, but in the meantime, I am enjoying her company.

My vet has told me several times, to try to do as little as possible toward regulating the lives of my Dexters. He says that whatever I do, it will probably be wrong, anyway. I think he is right, for the Dexters are so expert at regulating themselves to a good result.

I would suggest you find any Dexter owners near you that still have dwarf stock and go visit them. Talk to them and you'll hear the reasons they still keep dwarf Dexters. It's not the most popular thing to do. It's almost like were raising them in a closet, away from public view. But the rewards are there.

I once had a beef cattleman come here out of curiosity. He wanted to see why I would waste my time raising cattle that had no value to him. He spotted Ruffles, a big butted, stocky bodied dwarf Dexter cross. He oohed and aahed as he ran his hands all over her. He left here totally bewitched by her. He swore he'd buy her from me, said he already had an ideal bull to breed to her. Well, he never got her. Though he fell in love with her beefiness, she ended up going to a milking family, that milked her and sold the milk. She gave a plenty. Dual purpose, you know. Ruffles impressed her new owner with how well she kapt her condition. She always looked a little fat and sleek, no matter how bad the weather was and how badly his other cows were suffering. She gave him all the milk he wanted off of pure grass.

He liked her so well that he came back and bought Tata, a registered dwarf Dexter with similar attributes as Ruffles. He made a mini dairy with Ruffles, Tata, their calves and a Jersey or two. He'll gladly tell you how much better his dwarf Dexter cows are than his Jerseys. He has to add grain to the Jerseys. Their udders are so pendulous that it's hard to get a bucket under them. I mean the Jerseys, not the Dexters. Those short legged Dexters hold their udders up so well! One of his Jerseys actually stepped on her rear teats and tore them off. He sold her to a man who milked with a machine.

Lets see. I'm certainly not a geneticist, and don't have a clue what kind of genetic link there can be between the dwarfing gene and temperament, but I do work among them in a mixed herd quite often. It would take a blind man not to see the differences other than leg length between the dwarfs and non-dwarfs. If the herd starts a stampede across the pasture, it's usually a non-dwarf that starts it. The dwarf Dexters take their time deciding to join in. When all the Dexters come to the feed bunkers, the non-dwarfs can protect their spots, while the dwarfs yield and go looking for another spot. They are meek. Probably not because of a genetic thing other than their smaller size. They'll get their butts kicked in a fair fight. Sooo, they are sweeter to me and butter me up rather than act pushy. Hey, I like that!

It's all a matter of where you get your information about dwarf Dexters. First hand, from living with them, or reading the discussion groups where so many of the posters have never even seen a dwarf Dexter up close and personal, in it's native habitat.

So many of the visitors who come here go away giggling. They are amazed at how safe and comfortable they can feel while surrounded by horned cattle. Lots of them leave here after picking out their favorite. Make a guess which type of Dexter is usually the visitor's favorite? You are right, it is the little short, unimposing dwarf Dexter than came to them to sniff their leg or nose into their pocket looking for a treat. The little dwarf Dexter that stood stock still while they rubbed their back and down their legs. The little dwarf Dexter that let them try to milk out a squirt or two of milk, out in the middle of the pasture.

By golly, I'm falling in love all over again, just writing about them.

Here's a puzzle for you: In this video, my son came to visit and is trying to feed three heifers. One is a dwarf and two are not. See if you can tell which is the dwarf?

[cascade]

Feb 15, 2015 21:25:37 GMT Donlin Stud said:

We have 11 dwarfs ranging from 11 years to just 5 months of age.

Our non-dwarfs always require special attention to their feed requirements at certain times of the year and/or when calves are reaching the 5-6 month mark. I cant think of any time we have had to offer the same attention to feed requireemnts to any of our dwarf mums.

However I do have to add at this point we do have two non-dwarf cows whose weight and condition barely falters as their calves age or winter/summer hit hard. But they are the exception in the non-dwarfs.

Dwarf calves do approach us humans more eagerly and earlier than most non-dwarf calves. We have had the exceptions with the non dwarfs but never had a dwarf calf keep its distance for any period of time.

This underscores one of the biggest problems with chondro-dwarfs... The Chondro-gene can cover up the true genetics of an animal and it only works 50% of the time.

We know it's true that the Chondro-effect makes chondro-cows shorter than their true genetics would make them
Let's say it's also true that the Chondro-effect makes chondro-cows maintain condition better than their real genetics would have them do
Let's say it's also true that the Chondro-effect interrupts a calf's normal gait and makes it harder for them to run away and makes them appear more friendly

So if you have a too-tall animal with too-long-legs that has genetically poor condition genetics and wild attitude genetics, and you slap a chondro gene on it, that chondro gene could trick you into thinking you now have short, friendly, easy-conditioning genetics.   But you don't.  Those tall, wild, poor-condition genetics are still there and 50% of calves will show those poor traits.

Since you have some non-chondro's that have those good features, those features can be selected to be nearly 100% true-breeding and you can create an entire herd of short, friendly, easy-conditioning cattle.   Why settle for 50% when you can have 100%?  Why use a lethal gene to half accomplish something that you can FULLY accomplish WITHOUT lethal genes?

[Donlin Stud]

Cascade - enough.

Our predominately Woodmagic sire, who would be called the so called medium dwarf has produced 6 x 2014 calves of which only two who will be registered because of height issues already visible at 5-6 mths of age.

Both calves that we have decided to register are dwarfs, The female will be bred back to our senior bull who could be deemed small and has consistently controlled height and birth weights of 14-15 kilos.

The male will be bred to our deemed 'too-short' non-dwarf girls and then will be moved on to a herd of Hereford crosses to live out his life as a sire for market offspring.

We are moving out of our herd all dominant Woodmagic lines because of the constant inconsistency in heights of our calves.
They are either very short or way too tall.

So we have living walking proof medium sized dexters who are predominately Woodmagic and they are worse with height issues than our dwarf producing cows ever thought of producing.


 ....................................................Sorry everyone edited this this morning as I was heading to bed and rushed my reply..........................................................

[lakeportfarms]

Feb 16, 2015 6:52:25 GMT cascade said:

Feb 15, 2015 21:25:37 GMT Donlin Stud said:

We have 11 dwarfs ranging from 11 years to just 5 months of age.

Our non-dwarfs always require special attention to their feed requirements at certain times of the year and/or when calves are reaching the 5-6 month mark. I cant think of any time we have had to offer the same attention to feed requireemnts to any of our dwarf mums.

However I do have to add at this point we do have two non-dwarf cows whose weight and condition barely falters as their calves age or winter/summer hit hard. But they are the exception in the non-dwarfs.

Dwarf calves do approach us humans more eagerly and earlier than most non-dwarf calves. We have had the exceptions with the non dwarfs but never had a dwarf calf keep its distance for any period of time.

This underscores one of the biggest problems with chondro-dwarfs... The Chondro-gene can cover up the true genetics of an animal and it only works 50% of the time.

We know it's true that the Chondro-effect makes chondro-cows shorter than their true genetics would make them
Let's say it's also true that the Chondro-effect makes chondro-cows maintain condition better than their real genetics would have them do
Let's say it's also true that the Chondro-effect interrupts a calf's normal gait and makes it harder for them to run away and makes them appear more friendly

So if you have a too-tall animal with too-long-legs that has genetically poor condition genetics and wild attitude genetics, and you slap a chondro gene on it, that chondro gene could trick you into thinking you now have short, friendly, easy-conditioning genetics.   But you don't.  Those tall, wild, poor-condition genetics are still there and 50% of calves will show those poor traits.

Since you have some non-chondro's that have those good features, those features can be selected to be nearly 100% true-breeding and you can create an entire herd of short, friendly, easy-conditioning cattle.   Why settle for 50% when you can have 100%?  Why use a lethal gene to half accomplish something that you can FULLY accomplish WITHOUT lethal genes?

Kirk, you keep presenting this false narrative about chondro genetically masking the true height of the animal.  It simply is not true and your thinking is outdated.
There could have been some validity in your statement a number of years ago, when the identification of SOME dwarfs were harder to determine because they expressed the gene less prominently and could have been mistaken for long legs, and vice-versa.  That is not the case any longer because you can identify any questionable ones with a simple test.

There is no reason I can't evaluate 50% of the long legs for the same traits as you do (you've said so yourself above that they could be tall, wild, poor condition genetics) and knowing that the other 50% are dwarfs through testing allows me to also make the same selections for them.  Of course I wouldn't recommend YOU try to select the ideal dwarf Dexters, because you have no experience with them.  Those of us who raise many of them can make the same selections of Dwarfs as we can for the long-legged type.  I can recognize the dwarfs that express the gene more prominently and not confuse it with thinking it has really short genetics, I just know it expresses the chondro gene more prominently, can affect the conditioning and temperament issues favorably (easier to keep and more docile and friendly), and can wait for a long-legged to see how they turn out with the conditioning and temperament traits as compared to the other long-legged Dexters we have experience with.  I can just as easily determine these same things by comparing dwarf to dwarf though, because of the experience I have with them.

P.S. You also imply that all chondro carriers produce tall, wild and unthrifty progeny.  That is a blatant lie and you know it.  There are many dwarf Dexters that can produce superior progeny, including their long legged ones, that exceed the quality of a whole lot of non-dwarf breedings.

[nicosteintjesholland]

Genebo,
I certainly like young short calfs and would probably select the same way your vendors do. When we started with Dexters it was our first choice, those nice short-legged animals.
And if the chrondo gene was not a lethal gene and we could breed them homozygot I was the first who started with is. But that is an illusion.

As cascade/Kirk said, all shorties have 1 dwarf gene and 1 non-short gene! So all what's in the non-shorts is in the dwarf for 50% and comes out in 50% of all offspring.

I feel that most of the people like the shorts/dwarfs and are so in love with them they wouldn't listen to the negative sides the dwarfs have. Cascade/Kirk is so convinced of his non-shorts (thru dwarfs) that he yells to often in a unfriendly way, because he isn't heard.
It's something you all have to come out, on the other side of the big ocean

Unthough I'm rather new in Dexters I know a lot about the race, not only by reading, but every vacation I go to England/Wales/Schotland visiting farms. I spend a lot of time in Holland and Germany to look at Dexters. As said before, I like them all, the short and the non-shorts, even the tallest. But for our farm we have set our goals: breeding out of the chrondo.

Do you know that Germany has 2 societies? 1 smaller where chrondo-carriers are allowd and 1 very big society. The last has mandatory a chrondo test for all breeding bulls since the test was available. Now there ar hardly shorties left. What you see there is amazing. Every herd has about the same measurements and the animals look very equal. I can't say they are wilder or skinnier than the shorties I see at home, at colleages or in UK.

Scandinavian countries and Switzerland have the same filosofie for years. I haven't be there (maybe this autumn) but what I see and read about their results satisfies me in my decission to go for chrondo free.

Although all I wrote before our Dutch society has no plans to forbid the chrondo carrier. And I shall be the one who struggles and hold out till the end to keep the shorties alive for those who want to breed with them.

[Deleted]

Feb 16, 2015 10:29:45 GMT Donlin Stud said:

Cascade - enough.

Our predominately Woodmagic sire, who could called the so called medium dwarf has produced 6 x 2014 calves of only two who will be registered because of height issues already visible at 5-6 mths of age.

Both calves are dwarfs. The female will be bred back to our senior bull who could be deemed small and has consistently controlled height and birth weights of 14-15 kilos.

The male will be bred to our deemed 'too-short' girls and then will moved on to a herd of Hereford crosses to live out his life as a sire for market offspring.

We are moving out of our herd all dominant Woodmagic lines because of the constant inconsistency in heights of our calves.
They are either very short or way too tall.

So we have living walking proof medium sized dexters who are predominately Woodmagic are worse than our dwarf producing cows

Same here all though I have not had to tall. I have had a lack of consistency. I Do have one I consider to short although he is within the height range. I have not decided on his fate yet. He has some excellent milking behind him. Maybe for someone needing to reduce size he will be a good option. I think woodmagic still has a lot to offer our herd. Primarily the milk. I am just selecting away from the shorter appearance and going with the more traditional size and look.