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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 18, 2015 16:15:51 GMT
Nico, we have a growing problem here in the U.S with considerably larger calving weight Dexters out of polled bulls, especially homozygous polled bulls. These are my direct personal experiences, and I've heard from other breeders some similar stories. We also have a couple of this cow's OLDER full sisters, non-chondro, and they're both 40" or slightly above. We have her mother, she's a traditional pedigree carrier 13 years old, and 37" tall. Out of this family line, we've had several bull calves non chondro with calving weights in the 30-38 lb. range out of non-carrier bulls with very limited Lucifer in his pedigree. I have no other explanation for this example cow's high calving weight other than the polled bull she was bred to. Any suggestions otherwise?
Kirk is pointing out this cow and her steer as an example of a dwarf having giant genetics "hidden" in her pedigree, and I'm using this photo as an example that it is NOT the cow with the hidden genetics, but giant genetics hidden in the SIRE of the steer's pedigree that contributed to his size in the photo, along with the abnormally high calving weight. This may not be evidenced by some breeders who also have large cows, but for those of us with smaller non-carrier Dexters the higher calving weights take the Dexter from an easy calving breed to one that must be watched carefully to avoid calving problems and death of the cow and/or calf. I'll gladly give up some weaning weight and mature size in the process.
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Post by cascade on Feb 18, 2015 18:10:58 GMT
Nico, we have a growing problem here in the U.S with considerably larger calving weight Dexters out of polled bulls, especially homozygous polled bulls. The polled gene is a single independent gene that switches off horn growth. Science tells us that there is ZERO linkage between the polled gene and the size of calves. I've bred 130 polled calves out of polled bulls (mostly homozygous polled) and only one time had to help a mother with a calf (breach). Another significant polled breeder I know has the same experience. Because the polled gene has ZERO effect on calf size, any smart breeder can introduce the polled gene to ANY line of cattle, including a line that throws very small calves and you'd get small polled cattle with small polled calves. But TOO small of calves is just as big of a problem as too large of calves. By selecting for too small of calves, you may also be selecting for cow genetics where the mother is unable to handle a normal sized calf. So you have a cow that has fragile little inefficient 20 pound calves, and that cow might have a problem giving birth to a normal-sized robust calf. If you introduce ANY bull into your line of cows, you'd want to make certain that bull was compatible with your females. PS. EVERY problem that you might find with polled cows, can be bred out of them by smart breeders. But the problems with the Chondro-gene (lethal in homozygous condition and they won't breed true) are connected to the chondro-gene and can't be fixed. |
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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 18, 2015 18:24:43 GMT
I see lots of evidence to the contrary. (single , independent) I can't believe you don't see how huge beefiness and polledness are pairing up in progeny, after all that's why they were cross bred in to begin with.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 18, 2015 18:57:17 GMT
Nico, we have a growing problem here in the U.S with considerably larger calving weight Dexters out of polled bulls, especially homozygous polled bulls. The polled gene is a single independent gene that switches off horn growth. Science tells us that there is ZERO linkage between the polled gene and the size of calves. I've bred 130 polled calves out of polled bulls (mostly homozygous polled) and only one time had to help a mother with a calf (breach). Another significant polled breeder I know has the same experience. Because the polled gene has ZERO effect on calf size, any smart breeder can introduce the polled gene to ANY line of cattle, including a line that throws very small calves and you'd get small polled cattle with small polled calves. But TOO small of calves is just as big of a problem as too large of calves. By selecting for too small of calves, you may also be selecting for cow genetics where the mother is unable to handle a normal sized calf. So you have a cow that has fragile little inefficient 20 pound calves, and that cow might have a problem giving birth to a normal-sized robust calf. If you introduce ANY bull into your line of cows, you'd want to make certain that bull was compatible with your females. PS. EVERY problem that you might find with polled cows, can be bred out of them by smart breeders. But the problems with the Chondro-gene (lethal in homozygous condition and they won't breed true) are connected to the chondro-gene and can't be fixed. The "polled gene" didn't breed the cow. It was a polled bull, who happens to have a polled gene, and a lot of other genes that go with it that the calf inherited. How do you not understand that? |
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 18, 2015 19:40:36 GMT
Color me. . . . .. confused.
Kirk, it wasn't so long ago that scientists across the world were in a race to locate the polled gene... . . . I assume there was prestige, publishing opportunity, scientific journal recognition, and patents all rewards waiting in the wings. . . . then a test that was able to identify the polled status was developed and little is heard about that original research that was ongoing. I was told just recently that Dr. Schmutz has abandoned polled research and returned to domestic animal research.
So. . . . if the actual location of the gene on the bovine genome has yet to be identified. . . . . . the all this other "stuff" is surely speculation or opinion?
If we cannot even know where the gene is how do we know if it turns anything on or off? This non-scientist believes there may be error in the assumption that the polled gene does not carry recessive, because I think there is a possibility it does and when it is triggered and appears either as scurs or no horns it's been called "mutation" in the past when that isn't accurate. How can scientists make these assumptions if they cannot even find the gene?
I am with Hans on the size debate, and there IS enough anecdotal information and calf pulling/deaths being reported to give credence to the fact we are getting oversized calves out of polled lines, plus. . . . the size of some of the polled bulls is really astonishing. . . . . . sort of like the size of a lot of Lucifer male descendents.
Nico - Regarding the sizes of the bulls on the continent. You must remember the degree of outcrossing that has taken place in England. . .. and most of the Dexters anywhere in Europe descend from the English herd. That upgrading ( appendix) registry began in 1943. . . . .and it is a rarity to find animals in the English herdbook without upgrading in the immediate modern lineage.
I really need to finish the last few years of the appendix records and make them available. Breeders simply do not realize the degree of introgression that took place. Just in the entries for the decade of the 80's there are listings showing Ayeshire, Longhorn, Galloway, Hereford/Jersey cross, Shorthorn, Jersey, Guernsey, Murray Gray, Red Poll, Friesien and of course. . . the Angus. Those breeds carry recessive genes. . . . . . . . . We have no idea what is lurking in the soup kettle that is Saltaire Platinum, because his four recorded outcrossings are of unknown breeds. YIKES. ADCA has now supplemented those four known ones with three more, one of red lineage - breed unknown, one of Guernsey ( impossible but ADCA leadership doesn't much care about facts or accuracy - just manipulating their membership), and another of Red Poll. Oh my goodness polled breeders!
Judy
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 18, 2015 23:16:50 GMT
Hitchcock is 98,95% Dexter and 1,05% other (registre/appendix)
I think the heavy calfes come from inbreeding on Saltaire Platinum, the source of Polled in the USA.
Never had of heard of any trouble with polled bulls. But I must say that I know not much homozygot polled bulls.
I thought polled inherits on a simple autosomal dominant way?
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Post by cascade on Feb 19, 2015 4:40:26 GMT
Hitchcock is 98,95% Dexter and 1,05% other (registre/appendix) Never had of heard of any trouble with polled bulls. But I must say that I know not much homozygot polled bulls. I thought polled inherits on a simple autosomal dominant way? Polled inherits VERY simply, autosomal dominant. Zero question about it. The polled gene is on Bovine Chromosome 1... That's been known for over a decade Saltaire Platinum was 42" at 3 years of age, very doubtful that he consistently threw too-large calves and there is ZERO record of large calves. Most people who have "Saltaire platinum genetics" today only have perhaps 3% - 12% of that bull in their current animals... Anyone who has large calves is almost certainly getting those large calves from the other 97% - 88% of the pedigree. Many people suffer from famous bull syndrome. They see a famous bull on a distant pedigree and they give that bull all sorts of credit even though that bull may only represent 3% of the pedigree. That shows an entire lack of knowledge about genetics. Each generation, 50% of the original bull's genes are washed out. It's VERY difficult to pass a single gene forward from a distant ancestor and it's incredibly difficult to pass more than 1 gene forward, or a combination of genes forward. People also suffer from anecdotal evidence syndrome... They hear of a tiny handful of cases of something and they treat it like a statistical fact. Where is this giant list of problem calves? I haven't seen it. If it's true, there should be thousands of cases. Between myself and another significant breeder of polled dexters, we've bred well over 200 polled calves and haven't had calving problems due to large calves. There is ZERO linkage between calf size and the polled gene. Also, the difference between a homozygous polled bull and a heterozygous polled bull is that the homozygous polled bull has two of the polled genes, but he only passes one or the other at a time.... so from the calf's perspective, there is ZERO difference between a homozygous polled bull and a heterozygous polled bull. Many of us have done TONS of linebreeding around Saltaire Platinum and have found ZERO genetic issues. Detractors have been saying "Any day now" for over 20 years, yet there are thousands of descendents and no statistically significant problems found. www.dexters4u.com/2012/04/polled-genetics/link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00335-005-0016-0www.gsejournal.org/content/pdf/1297-9686-46-44.pdf |
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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 19, 2015 17:06:46 GMT
See Lakeports statement above. Linebreeding to an outcrossed animal continuously dilutes the Dexter.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 19, 2015 17:36:41 GMT
Kirk,
I know exactly where you got your information. Verbatim. After reading your response I went looking for updated information in the world of Dexter genetics and ran upon the updated paper of Dr. Schmutz and this paragraph.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 19, 2015 17:40:59 GMT
I couldn't add anything else below that quote so I will just start over.
That article was recently updated, and I will either copy it or add a link on a new thread. It basically says what I thought I said previously. The polled gene has not yet been found, so there may be interesting science yet to learn.
Judy
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Post by cascade on Feb 19, 2015 21:02:49 GMT
See Lakeports statement above. Linebreeding to an outcrossed animal continuously dilutes the Dexter. What made Dexters "Dexters" in the first place? All dexters started off as 100% non-dexters just a century or two ago. What eventually made them dexters, was breeders and the environment selecting animals for shorter-size, friendly behavior, excellent mothering, thrifty traits, dual-purpose, fun personalities, etc.. Since 99.99% of the genes of all dexters come from non-dexters, the ONLY thing that makes dexters, "dexters" is ongoing selection for certain combinations and frequencies of those genes that meet the breed description. A poorly bred and poorly selected dexter with NO outcrossing in the past 20 generations can be far LESS "Dexter" and far more "diluted", than a well-bred and well-selected Dexter with out-crossing just 5 generations ago, due to the way genetics work. Onging selection is EVERYTHING. Distant pedigrees are fun to look at for the sake of history, but they have very limited practical use due to the way genetics work and the fact that 50% of an ancestor's genetics are lost in each subsequent generation. |
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 19, 2015 22:09:29 GMT
Darn it Kirk you are being redundant! Yes! Dexters were just organized into a breed in the late 1870's but the historical information in the early books say these little cows roamed the hillsides long before that as almost every existing breed did . . . because NO breeds were organized into pedigreed breeds until after the middle 1800's. It does NOT matter their heritage. . . . . as it does not matter the make-up of the Holstein, or Red Poll, or any other breed of recent times. They ALL evolved through the eyes and choices of man. THEN. . . . once organized into a breed it was the responsibility of the breeders who were sold animals by others who had protected their foundation to do the same. Darn it. YOU are not doing that. YOU and every other polled breeder are NOT protecting nor cherishing the foundation of this breed .. . . you are genetically engineering it into that which it was never founded to be by removing the horns with the bloodlines of a mongrel/grade bull! Because that is what YOU selfishly want. Rather than RISK the loss of GAIN. . . . by giving your breed the new name it should have and starting from scratch as the Dexter owners did.. . . . you cowards without the honor or decency to be honest are destroying somethng extraordinary. And strong as that statement is. . . it is true. . . because your foundation is built on deceit and lies .. . . . . .and to a person each of you has looked the other way. . . . pretending.
What made Dexters, Dexters in the first place? DWARFISM! Nothing but. And ALL the traits that were cherished in this breed are directly connected to the dwarf genes. And when YOU and other breeders select AWAY from those genetics and traits and phenotype. . . . YOU ARE MAKING A NEW BREED. You absolutely are NOT honoring the breed that breeders who came before you did and protected and then entrusted to breeders they believed would honorably select and protect and continue the breed as it was founded.
Your words mean nothing! They are bull! They are designed to make excuses and equivocate for the atrocities visited on this wonderful little breed by those who wish to change it for GAIN. Not for any other reason. For GAIN. What YOU advocate and what YOU are doing to this breed are not a darn bit different than what Hitler wanted to do to anything other than the Aryan race, or what ISIS wishes to do to Christians. Remove the "defects" you don't want! You don't like the Dexter as it IS. . . .so you wish to destroy it. Behead it so to speak.
The pronoun "you" encompasses every single one of you who once were innocent to the lies and deceit but no longer are and continue to pretend. Not a single one of you with pedigreed dogs would permit this in your breed. Not a one. If there was honor amongst you it would be the same as other pedigreed species. . .there would be a requirement to give a new NAME to the new BREED. Do that! Do the right and honorable thing. Stop trading on the characteristics of a breed YOU no longer breed!
Judy
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