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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 16, 2015 16:35:53 GMT
Cascade - enough. Our predominately Woodmagic sire, who could called the so called medium dwarf has produced 6 x 2014 calves of only two who will be registered because of height issues already visible at 5-6 mths of age. Both calves are dwarfs. The female will be bred back to our senior bull who could be deemed small and has consistently controlled height and birth weights of 14-15 kilos. The male will be bred to our deemed 'too-short' girls and then will moved on to a herd of Hereford crosses to live out his life as a sire for market offspring. We are moving out of our herd all dominant Woodmagic lines because of the constant inconsistency in heights of our calves. They are either very short or way too tall. So we have living walking proof medium sized dexters who are predominately Woodmagic are worse than our dwarf producing cows I'm curious how the mothers of the to tall 2014 calves look like? |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 16, 2015 16:46:23 GMT
Rather than try to shoe-horn all of our customers into the single type of Dexter we produce, we have found that it is better to produce a variety of Dexters and then LISTEN to the needs, requirements, and goals of our customers and then help them to CHOOSE they type of Dexter that best fits their farm and personal goals. Some people have very limited acreage, some people have lots of young children, some people are very interested in milking, while others are not. We have itsy bitsy chondro carriers for those who love the little tea-cup milk cow up to beefy chondro carriers that will produce steers that will more than fill a freezer. We can offer people an dwarf bull that is, "the only bull I'd ever consider having on my property with kids." We can also offer people long legged heifers in different sizes as well. We DO have many "true short" cows, regular height Dexter cows, and even a couple of girls that are a bit bigger than we prefer. But we also run a half dozen Dexter bulls and have a tank full of semen from several excellent bulls, so we can select the right breeding for each of our girls to produce the best quality calves.
But even more important than having TRUE selection to offer people, we also select our breeding stock based on these top criteria:
#1 Conformation (both physical characteristics and adherence to BREED STANDARDS)
#2 Temperament
#3 Pedigree
We traveled across the country SEVERAL times before settling on the last bull we acquired for breeding; this bull had some pretty big hoof prints to fill, as we were looking for a replacement for Shamrock Mike. We did not select our new bull because of his color. We did not choose him because of his A2 status. We did not choose him because of his chondro status. We DID NOT CARE about these traits. We chose him because he was the best bull we could find. His name is Shadwell. He did test out to be A2/A2. He did test out to be a chondro carrier. He did test out to be black/black. His temperament is EXCEPTIONAL and better than I could have hoped for. Shadwell is a grown bull, 6 years of age. We've had him less than 9 months, and my wife lies on him in the pasture and scratches him. When we purchased this bull, he was fully mature, had calves on the ground, and we knew EXACTLY what we were getting and EXACTLY what we would be using for breeding. This bull will never throw any color but black and I DON'T CARE. He'll throw offspring that carry color and improve everything on my farm. All that matters.
There is a BIG difference between what traditional Dexter breeders select for and breed for and what red polled breeders select for and breed for. Their top 3 priorities aren't even ON my list.
I do have A2/A2 calves. I don't breed for it, but I have them. People can be ASSURED that I breed for conformation, temperament, and pedigree. If they get a calf that is A2/A2, NOTHING has been sacrificed to attain these calves.
We'll drop over 50 calves this year. Well over 50% of our bull calves will receive a tetanus the day they are born. They'll be banded at 2 weeks of age when they are dehorned. The only bull calves we retain are out of our finest cows that consistently produce our best calves PERIOD. I will steer a red A2/A2 bull calf out of a cow that is NOT one of my best cows rather than see him become someone's herd sire. We closely watch the rest of the bull calves as they mature. We OWN a Callicrate bander to steer boys that do not measure up to our standards as they mature.
We have an A1/A2 bull calf that we bred and chose OVER several A2/A2 boys to be our new "modern horned" Dexter herd sire. Why would we do such a thing?? Because he is FAR superior to any other modern horned Dexter bull I have produced/seen PERIOD. And if we do find a bull that exceeds him in the three qualities we breed for, he'll be replaced.
THESE breeding selection practices are the reasons why the polled and traditional camps do not get along. We select for very different traits.
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Post by cascade on Feb 16, 2015 16:53:47 GMT
We are moving out of our herd all dominant Woodmagic lines because of the constant inconsistency in heights of our calves. They are either very short or way too tall. So we have living walking proof medium sized dexters who are predominately Woodmagic are worse than our dwarf producing cows I'm not trying to sell you on any particular line of animals. I'm selling you on the concept that most any feature in cattle can be made to be true-breeding and stabilized if you work at it long enough and hard enough and good enough. If you have medium sized dexters that aren't stabilized, it's because you haven't had enough time, or haven't done enough hard work or you haven't used the correct breeding principles. Stabilizing a cattle herd can take DECADES of good hard work as you work toward homozyous pairs of genes in certain combinations to achieve your goals. The chondro gene interferes with this process because it's deadly in homozygous pairs. You can do this selection and stabilization with ANY line of animals (as long as you start with the Alleles that you will need), you certainly don't need Woodmagic lines. |
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Post by cascade on Feb 16, 2015 17:29:21 GMT
THESE breeding selection practices are the reasons why the polled and traditional camps do not get along. We select for very different traits. Here are two premium polled AI bulls that are a model of what the best polled breeders are selecting for. Both of these excellent AI bulls fit the BREED DESCRIPTION of 38" to 44" at 3 years, they improve udders and have perfect behavior. They are tested FREE of PHA Lethal genes and Chondro Lethal Genes.   |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 16, 2015 20:26:33 GMT
Kirk, you make my point better than I could. Your first bull is A2/A2 homozygous polled, measured at 2 years of age (and I presume collected at the same time). Your second bull is A2/A2 homozygous polled, measured at 3 years of age. Neither of these bulls COULD have grown offspring at the time of collection. Neither of these bulls COULD have significant data on calf birth weights. I don't have a straw in my tank from a bull that was collected prior to 6 years of age. The bulls in my tank were collected because they consistently produced EXCEPTIONAL OFFSPRING. I know exactly what the top priorities were when selecting the two AI bulls for collection that you listed:
#1 they were homozygous polled
#2 they were red
#3 they were A2/A2
At the time of collection, they did not have mature offspring to say that they improve udders, pass on good temperaments, consistently produce low birth weights for easy calving, or even have reproduced themselves in their calves. You may protest but I'm only using your own statements and criteria that you've posted in other threads that should be important for AI bulls. These are, essentially unproven bulls advertised/heralded mainly for traits that have nothing to do with two of the top priorities we select and breed for as traditional Dexter breeders.
Note: These bulls were measured at 2 and 3 years of age. I don't know of a single bull that did not continue growing after age 2 or 3.
I've said it many times, we don't complain about the height of our Dexters. We never strayed from the breed standard, so we don't need to find our way back to the breed standard in height. And we never strayed from low birth weights and easy calving, so we don't need to find our way back from that path, either.
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Post by cascade on Feb 16, 2015 22:16:42 GMT
That second bull above has had 74 calves in the ADCA registry and many more in other registries including many overseas. His first calf was born in 2007, so you bet he's well verified. Here's his description "out of our best udder lines. He produces a very "typey" calf with increased width and shorter legs. He has produced the most consistent calf crop of any bull we have used. The calves are also calm, easy to handle, and every calf is polled. Straws are certified (CSS) and can be also shipped to Australia, Canada and many South American countries" He was measured at the age of 3 which is the American breed description standard and he fits the standard well. These are very well selected bulls. When we were buying a bull from this breeder 11 years ago, she told us to pay close attention to conformation and behavior first and foremost and consider color and horn status secondarily. We obtained an amazing heterozygous polled black cow from her farm that is stunning and our blacks all descend from her. The breeder is one of the World's expert Dexter breeders and she has nearly 30 years experience with them. She also has studied genetics very carefully. She is one of the foremost experts concerning Dexter genetics. The breeder is one of the authors of this excellent book on breeding Dexters. www.amazon.com/Dexter-Cattle-Gabriella-Stefani-Millman/dp/1438983417/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424123647&sr=8-1&keywords=dexter+cattle |
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Post by ladena on Feb 16, 2015 22:38:21 GMT
The second bull is Belle Fourche Mr. Right and he is A1/A2. I asked his current owner once about his status for someone without internet and that is what she told me.
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Post by lonecowhand on Feb 16, 2015 23:16:14 GMT
Hi Ladena, and who's the Horned critter in your avatar?
Bill
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Post by ladena on Feb 16, 2015 23:33:35 GMT
Bill, that's Donal our bull. He's a grumpy looking guy in that pic,lol.
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Post by Donlin Stud on Feb 17, 2015 0:01:09 GMT
Cascade - enough. Our predominately Woodmagic sire, who could called the so called medium dwarf has produced 6 x 2014 calves of only two who will be registered because of height issues already visible at 5-6 mths of age. Both calves are dwarfs. The female will be bred back to our senior bull who could be deemed small and has consistently controlled height and birth weights of 14-15 kilos. The male will be bred to our deemed 'too-short' girls and then will moved on to a herd of Hereford crosses to live out his life as a sire for market offspring. We are moving out of our herd all dominant Woodmagic lines because of the constant inconsistency in heights of our calves. They are either very short or way too tall. So we have living walking proof medium sized dexters who are predominately Woodmagic are worse than our dwarf producing cows I'm curious how the mothers of the to tall 2014 calves look like? HI Nicosteintjesholland The too tall calfs’ bloodlines have tended towards those who were line-bred with the various WM ancestors. The mothers ranged in height themselves. The tall calves are not all from tall mums. Its all over the place. We are aware and have seen calves growing quickly to their near adult height before slowing right down before filling out to become quite balanced and desirable heighted bulls. So we will watch these calves. We haven’t quite written them off them off but its not looking good.  Kirk, You have stated on many occasions how medium sized Dexters will always breed true and dwarfs do not. Woodmagic is the only stud who concentrated that trait of a dwarf-looking Dexter that isn’t a dwarf at all, hence controlling height. The other thing I have found is studs that tend to devote themselves to the supposed wonders and miracles of the Woodmagic bloodlines also seem to have an unhealthy focus on feet and top lines. This leads us to wonder if the so-called breeds-true medium-sized Dexter also brings to the table poor feet and soft top lines. One of our template girls has produced four daughters from a different sire each time 2 x daughters are dwarfs and the other 2 are nons yet even visitors/non Dexter owners ask if they are related because of their close resemblance to each other. And the wonderful surprise is two of the breeding aged daughters have produced a heifer and bullcalf each with different sires and the close resemblance is still very strong with their 2014 calves being near replicates of their mothers. If it wasn’t for the one bullcalf each year, we could mix the photos and one would think they were of the same calf. So we do sit and watch how watery your statements are in our Dexters. |
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 17, 2015 0:05:17 GMT
That second bull above has had 74 calves in the ADCA registry and many more in other registries including many overseas. His first calf was born in 2007, so you bet he's well verified. Here's his description "out of our best udder lines. He produces a very "typey" calf with increased width and shorter legs. He has produced the most consistent calf crop of any bull we have used. The calves are also calm, easy to handle, and every calf is polled. Straws are certified (CSS) and can be also shipped to Australia, Canada and many South American countries" He was measured at the age of 3 which is the American breed description standard and he fits the standard well. These are very well selected bulls. When we were buying a bull from this breeder 11 years ago, she told us to pay close attention to conformation and behavior first and foremost and consider color and horn status secondarily. We obtained an amazing heterozygous polled black cow from her farm that is stunning and our blacks all descend from her. The breeder is one of the World's expert Dexter breeders and she has nearly 30 years experience with them. She also has studied genetics very carefully. She is one of the foremost experts concerning Dexter genetics. The breeder is one of the authors of this excellent book on breeding Dexters. www.amazon.com/Dexter-Cattle-Gabriella-Stefani-Millman/dp/1438983417/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424123647&sr=8-1&keywords=dexter+cattle I've that book! it's very informative! I'm going to investigate if semen from "Belle Fourche Mr. Right" can come overseas to Holland! thanks for sharing |
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 17, 2015 0:35:59 GMT
I'm curious how the mothers of the to tall 2014 calves look like? HI Nicosteintjesholland The too tall calfs’ bloodlines have tended towards those who were line-bred with the various WM ancestors. The mothers ranged in height themselves. The tall calves are not all from tall mums. Its all over the place. We are aware and have seen calves growing quickly to their near adult height before slowing right down before filling out to become quite balanced and desirable heighted bulls. So we will watch these calves. We haven’t quite written them off them off but its not looking good. Kirk, You have stated on many occasions how medium sized Dexters will always breed true and dwarfs do not. Woodmagic is the only stud who concentrated that trait of a dwarf-looking Dexter that isn’t a dwarf at all, hence controlling height. The other thing I have found is studs that tend to devote themselves to the supposed wonders and miracles of the Woodmagic bloodlines also seem to have an unhealthy focus on feet and top lines. This leads us to wonder if the so-called breeds-true medium-sized Dexter also brings to the table poor feet and soft top lines. One of our template girls has produced four daughters from a different sire each time 2 x daughters are dwarfs and the other 2 are nons yet even visitors/non Dexter owners ask if they are related because of their close resemblance to each other. And the wonderful surprise is two of the breeding aged daughters have produced a heifer and bullcalf each with different sires and the close resemblance is still very strong with their 2014 calves being near replicates of their mothers. If it wasn’t for the one bullcalf each year, we could mix the photos and one would think they were of the same calf. So we do sit and watch how watery your statements are in our Dexters. Never underestimate the power of good motherlines! its so powerfull. Thats why I asked you about the mothers. You can't blaim your bull for doing wrong work if the mothers don't give thru what she has got. What I mean: look at other animals or even human: kids grow like their parents, even a little bit taller because of better food and less disease and lack of minerals/vit.etc. If not: look at the grandparents. If not: shoot the milkman  or...... is their a gene wich makes one of them smaller than the DNA told them to be. thats the dwarf. She can be a giant in her genes. But because of the chrondo gene she is a small adorable cow. When it comes to progeny she gives the half of her genes. 50% of the cases the chrondo: result the same small adorable calf. But half of the time she gives her giant gene. Bigger than a non-short should be. Oops. This is what I'm told how it works. I've seen it in my own herd, in 5 Eurepean Countries. Seen more than 50 herds and I think more than 1000 Dexters. about 1/4 more than 10 years Chrondo free. a few breeding chrondo x chrondo, the rest breeding chrondo x chrondo-free. I don't want you to reconsider your decision to breed with chrondo's again. But I hope you tell the purchasers of the animals you sell the thruth about how chrondo carriers look like and how the re-produce. |
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Post by hollyrockranch on Feb 17, 2015 2:03:27 GMT
Hi, I keep reading a lot of opinions about shorty bulls being nicer then long-legged bulls. I can not imagine that they could be much nicer than our bull, Helios. He's a long-legged, and his temperament is wonderful. He is respectful and friendly, even when he is on the lead. In the show ring or in the field, you can go right up to him, put a halter on him, or just pet and comb him. He loves attention! On the other hand, a family that lives up the road from us has a shorty bull, and they don't go in the field with him hardly at all. They say he has an attitude and can not be trusted. He chased her husband right out of the field. But I am sure there are all kinds of sweet shorty's out there. I think breeding has some to do with their temperament, but I also think that it's the time and effort you put into your bull, short or tall, that really makes the difference.
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Post by genebo on Feb 17, 2015 3:26:16 GMT
I think there is more difference between owners than there is between the types of bulls. Two bulls in exactly the same situation maight have a noticeable temperament difference. Bulls raised and trained by different owners can have totally different personalities from each other. There are also genetic influences. Some lines seem to produce different personalities.
Give me a bull raised and trained in a small herd by a caring owner any time. The range bulls that grow up in large herds with little or no human contact can't be expected to be as nice. Ever.
Here's another thing to consider: When visitors come here to see my bull, he is more willing to be petted and fawned over by some people than others. Some people have traits that affect the way the bull behaves. They move too quickly, their voices are the wrong pitch or they smell wrong. If you have a really good relationship with your bull, you must be a good owner. I'll bet my bull would like you, too.
On the other hand, the man from up the road from you might not fare as well.
I don't know the exact count, but I have sold a number of bulls that were the offspring of my bull, and the offspring all seemed to inherit the same gentlemanly demeanor, regardless whether long or short legged. All but one steer that is out of a cow with a notoriously poorly behaved bull in her ancestry a few times. He's a short legged half brother to a long legged young bull that are both in my pasture together, and they are like night and day. The short legged one with the mean bull in his ancestry is the worst behaved bull ever to set foot on my land. He goes to the processor March 11.
Yummm!
Where do you live? If you are close enough, you are welcome to visit here. We love having visitors and getting to show off our Dexters. If you come after March 25th, I'll give you a pound of ground buttheaded bull to take home with you.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 17, 2015 12:16:21 GMT
HI Nicosteintjesholland The too tall calfs’ bloodlines have tended towards those who were line-bred with the various WM ancestors. The mothers ranged in height themselves. The tall calves are not all from tall mums. Its all over the place. We are aware and have seen calves growing quickly to their near adult height before slowing right down before filling out to become quite balanced and desirable heighted bulls. So we will watch these calves. We haven’t quite written them off them off but its not looking good. Kirk, You have stated on many occasions how medium sized Dexters will always breed true and dwarfs do not. Woodmagic is the only stud who concentrated that trait of a dwarf-looking Dexter that isn’t a dwarf at all, hence controlling height. The other thing I have found is studs that tend to devote themselves to the supposed wonders and miracles of the Woodmagic bloodlines also seem to have an unhealthy focus on feet and top lines. This leads us to wonder if the so-called breeds-true medium-sized Dexter also brings to the table poor feet and soft top lines. One of our template girls has produced four daughters from a different sire each time 2 x daughters are dwarfs and the other 2 are nons yet even visitors/non Dexter owners ask if they are related because of their close resemblance to each other. And the wonderful surprise is two of the breeding aged daughters have produced a heifer and bullcalf each with different sires and the close resemblance is still very strong with their 2014 calves being near replicates of their mothers. If it wasn’t for the one bullcalf each year, we could mix the photos and one would think they were of the same calf. So we do sit and watch how watery your statements are in our Dexters. Never underestimate the power of good motherlines! its so powerfull. Thats why I asked you about the mothers. You can't blaim your bull for doing wrong work if the mothers don't give thru what she has got. What I mean: look at other animals or even human: kids grow like their parents, even a little bit taller because of better food and less disease and lack of minerals/vit.etc. If not: look at the grandparents. If not: shoot the milkman or...... is their a gene wich makes one of them smaller than the DNA told them to be. thats the dwarf. She can be a giant in her genes. But because of the chrondo gene she is a small adorable cow. When it comes to progeny she gives the half of her genes. 50% of the cases the chrondo: result the same small adorable calf. But half of the time she gives her giant gene. Bigger than a non-short should be. Oops. This is what I'm told how it works. I've seen it in my own herd, in 5 Eurepean Countries. Seen more than 50 herds and I think more than 1000 Dexters. about 1/4 more than 10 years Chrondo free. a few breeding chrondo x chrondo, the rest breeding chrondo x chrondo-free. I don't want you to reconsider your decision to breed with chrondo's again. But I hope you tell the purchasers of the animals you sell the thruth about how chrondo carriers look like and how the re-produce. Nico, you probably haven't seen my discussion of how we use the chondro gene to our advantage in our production, so I'll give you the abbreviated version here and try to find the more detailed one to cut and paste later...
And for the purpose of trying to enter a new description here that I hope is adopted I'll use the term "NEAR SHORT LEG". They are what Kirk would call "true short" but they don't resemble our dwarf short leg Dexters at all, so I have trouble calling them "true short".We are moving toward the herd primarily consisting of dwarf cows, after years of having a smaller (but always growing herd) of a dwarf bull and near short cows. Our bull was the sire of a many time national champion cow, and so it would be silly to give up such a nice bull that produced such nice Dexters. But as his life started to come to a close, and our herd had grown (and started to age), we started keeping all of his dwarf heifers and formed a new herd, combined with a non-carrier bull as the basis of the new direction we were taking. Because the dwarf cows are such easy keepers compared to our "near short" cows, and the numbers in our herd had grown so large, the inputs to the dwarf cow herd are significantly lower than that of the "near short" herd of cows. Yet the dwarf cows could, 25% of the time, produce a bull calf/steer that weaned at 75% and sometimes more of his dam's weight, and 100% of her size! Think of it, you're using a little cow to produce a much larger steer than she is, and frankly even larger than the "near short" cows that we had steers out of. Remember, all of the "breed true...producing 100% calves like her stuff that Kirk spouts means that your bull calves destined for beef are also going to be smaller too! Furthermore, because of the way the dwarf lays down fat earlier than the "near short" or even larger non-carrier Dexter, the time between weaning from the mother (who holds her condition so well while nursing) and sending him to the freezer is reduced by several months time. In a climate such as ours (it's -26c outside right now) the dwarf dexters also maintain their condition much better and are more hardy in the cold and deep snows that we have. Think of the body type of the Mediterranean people and Spanish people, and think of the body type of the Scandinavian people or the Inuit of the Arctic...they are built that way for a reason. Remember their body types for the most part evolved before we had life was easy and we had central heating, mass immigration and ease of travel, etc. so although you can point out exceptions fairly easily now, they are likely the result of a much easier lifestyle than generations ago. If you didn't adapt, you died, or you somehow found your way further South to another climate and your less than ideal hardiness for a harsh environment became more and more like the local populations. Since I don't plan to put all the Dexters in a heated barn anytime soon, we'll continue to select for the hardiest types that we can find in our climate. And our dwarf yearling heifers right now are faring FAR better in this cold weather than the "near short" yearling heifers that we have, because their mass is so much higher as a percentage of their surface area. Now this may be less of an advantage, or even in some cases a disadvantage in warmer climates, such as what they have in the Southern US, or even the marine climate Pacific Northwest where Kirk lives. I checked and Kirk's high today is supposed to be 16C or nearly 60 Farenheit. Ours is supposed to be -15C, or 8 degrees Farenheit. In Amsterdam you also have a marine climate, but you're in the 7C range (40's F) pretty consistently this time of year, which is cool enough to get the benefits of the dwarf Dexter. We feed hay about 6 months of the year...you can see why I am so focused on the inputs vs. outputs, and why Kirk's breeding practices are not as efficient as mine are. To summarize, just as you can run a couple of Dexters on a given area of land vs. one of another larger breed, you can run a 10 dwarf Dexters on a given area of land for every 8 or so non-dwarf Dexters during the grazing season. In addition to feeding a lot of hay, we also do strip grazing in the summer months, and the short dwarf herd of similar size to our "near short" herd goes through less pasture in a given week, and frankly maintains their condition as well if not better despite that. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 15:07:48 GMT
That second bull above has had 74 calves in the ADCA registry and many more in other registries including many overseas. His first calf was born in 2007, so you bet he's well verified. Here's his description "out of our best udder lines. He produces a very "typey" calf with increased width and shorter legs. He has produced the most consistent calf crop of any bull we have used. The calves are also calm, easy to handle, and every calf is polled. Straws are certified (CSS) and can be also shipped to Australia, Canada and many South American countries" He was measured at the age of 3 which is the American breed description standard and he fits the standard well. These are very well selected bulls. When we were buying a bull from this breeder 11 years ago, she told us to pay close attention to conformation and behavior first and foremost and consider color and horn status secondarily. We obtained an amazing heterozygous polled black cow from her farm that is stunning and our blacks all descend from her. The breeder is one of the World's expert Dexter breeders and she has nearly 30 years experience with them. She also has studied genetics very carefully. She is one of the foremost experts concerning Dexter genetics. The breeder is one of the authors of this excellent book on breeding Dexters. www.amazon.com/Dexter-Cattle-Gabriella-Stefani-Millman/dp/1438983417/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424123647&sr=8-1&keywords=dexter+cattle I've that book! it's very informative! I'm going to investigate if semen from "Belle Fourche Mr. Right" can come overseas to Holland! thanks for sharing why you have a nicer bull than this already and I think you said yours has very little upgrading in him. |
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 17, 2015 21:24:25 GMT
Never underestimate the power of good motherlines! its so powerfull. Thats why I asked you about the mothers. You can't blaim your bull for doing wrong work if the mothers don't give thru what she has got. What I mean: look at other animals or even human: kids grow like their parents, even a little bit taller because of better food and less disease and lack of minerals/vit.etc. If not: look at the grandparents. If not: shoot the milkman or...... is their a gene wich makes one of them smaller than the DNA told them to be. thats the dwarf. She can be a giant in her genes. But because of the chrondo gene she is a small adorable cow. When it comes to progeny she gives the half of her genes. 50% of the cases the chrondo: result the same small adorable calf. But half of the time she gives her giant gene. Bigger than a non-short should be. Oops. This is what I'm told how it works. I've seen it in my own herd, in 5 Eurepean Countries. Seen more than 50 herds and I think more than 1000 Dexters. about 1/4 more than 10 years Chrondo free. a few breeding chrondo x chrondo, the rest breeding chrondo x chrondo-free. I don't want you to reconsider your decision to breed with chrondo's again. But I hope you tell the purchasers of the animals you sell the thruth about how chrondo carriers look like and how the re-produce. Nico, you probably haven't seen my discussion of how we use the chondro gene to our advantage in our production, so I'll give you the abbreviated version here and try to find the more detailed one to cut and paste later...
And for the purpose of trying to enter a new description here that I hope is adopted I'll use the term "NEAR SHORT LEG". They are what Kirk would call "true short" but they don't resemble our dwarf short leg Dexters at all, so I have trouble calling them "true short".We are moving toward the herd primarily consisting of dwarf cows, after years of having a smaller (but always growing herd) of a dwarf bull and near short cows. Our bull was the sire of a many time national champion cow, and so it would be silly to give up such a nice bull that produced such nice Dexters. But as his life started to come to a close, and our herd had grown (and started to age), we started keeping all of his dwarf heifers and formed a new herd, combined with a non-carrier bull as the basis of the new direction we were taking. Because the dwarf cows are such easy keepers compared to our "near short" cows, and the numbers in our herd had grown so large, the inputs to the dwarf cow herd are significantly lower than that of the "near short" herd of cows. Yet the dwarf cows could, 25% of the time, produce a bull calf/steer that weaned at 75% and sometimes more of his dam's weight, and 100% of her size! Think of it, you're using a little cow to produce a much larger steer than she is, and frankly even larger than the "near short" cows that we had steers out of. Remember, all of the "breed true...producing 100% calves like her stuff that Kirk spouts means that your bull calves destined for beef are also going to be smaller too! Furthermore, because of the way the dwarf lays down fat earlier than the "near short" or even larger non-carrier Dexter, the time between weaning from the mother (who holds her condition so well while nursing) and sending him to the freezer is reduced by several months time. In a climate such as ours (it's -26c outside right now) the dwarf dexters also maintain their condition much better and are more hardy in the cold and deep snows that we have. Think of the body type of the Mediterranean people and Spanish people, and think of the body type of the Scandinavian people or the Inuit of the Arctic...they are built that way for a reason. Remember their body types for the most part evolved before we had life was easy and we had central heating, mass immigration and ease of travel, etc. so although you can point out exceptions fairly easily now, they are likely the result of a much easier lifestyle than generations ago. If you didn't adapt, you died, or you somehow found your way further South to another climate and your less than ideal hardiness for a harsh environment became more and more like the local populations. Since I don't plan to put all the Dexters in a heated barn anytime soon, we'll continue to select for the hardiest types that we can find in our climate. And our dwarf yearling heifers right now are faring FAR better in this cold weather than the "near short" yearling heifers that we have, because their mass is so much higher as a percentage of their surface area. Now this may be less of an advantage, or even in some cases a disadvantage in warmer climates, such as what they have in the Southern US, or even the marine climate Pacific Northwest where Kirk lives. I checked and Kirk's high today is supposed to be 16C or nearly 60 Farenheit. Ours is supposed to be -15C, or 8 degrees Farenheit. In Amsterdam you also have a marine climate, but you're in the 7C range (40's F) pretty consistently this time of year, which is cool enough to get the benefits of the dwarf Dexter. We feed hay about 6 months of the year...you can see why I am so focused on the inputs vs. outputs, and why Kirk's breeding practices are not as efficient as mine are. To summarize, just as you can run a couple of Dexters on a given area of land vs. one of another larger breed, you can run a 10 dwarf Dexters on a given area of land for every 8 or so non-dwarf Dexters during the grazing season. In addition to feeding a lot of hay, we also do strip grazing in the summer months, and the short dwarf herd of similar size to our "near short" herd goes through less pasture in a given week, and frankly maintains their condition as well if not better despite that. I like this story. That's why I came on this board! I will do more investigation on the point of feed-efficienty from the dwarfs, it's definitely a important issue. |
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 17, 2015 21:29:11 GMT
I've that book! it's very informative! I'm going to investigate if semen from "Belle Fourche Mr. Right" can come overseas to Holland! thanks for sharing why you have a nicer bull than this already and I think you said yours has very little upgrading in him. It's not for me but for the ones in our society who only want red and like polled. The upgrading etc. is what I'm going to investigate. I've tried to import semen from USA before, but everytime the answer was that he was only available for USA. I shall do a post elsewere on this forum about AI bulls. |
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Post by genebo on Feb 17, 2015 22:23:22 GMT
Belle Fourche Mr. Right was collected following the rules that would allow his semen to be exported to Canada. 100 straws of his semen were exported to Canada and stored in a Canadian storage facility, where it could be sold directly to Canadians.
The requirements for collecting a bull's semen for exportation to other countries varies. In general, the requirements for collecting for Canada are less rigorous than for exporting to Australia or New Zealand, and quite a bit less demanding than for export to England. I haven't heard what the requirements for European countries are.
Semen that has already been collected cannot be upgraded for export to a country with higher requirements. The process which is undertaken for approval to export involves test performed on the bull, not the semen. It requires a prolonged isolation period at an approved facility before the collection takes place.
I know of an owner that refused to have their bull tested for export to England, because if he fails one of the tests he will be disqualified for domestic use, also. That test is not required for domestic or Canadian use.
The rules for export are so funny (wierd, not haha). I was unable to export semen from my bull to Canada, since I didn't have him tested prior to collection. It cost too much (over 3 times) and required I leave him at the facility for 6 weeks. However, I could export the whole bull to Canada to be used as a breeding bull. I got an offer to buy him, take him to Canada, where he would breed the lady's herd, then resold to me. I think it would have been OK to have him collected while he was in Canada, for semen sales within Canada. I nixed the idea, because I wanted him here, not off traveling the world. He's my buddy.
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 17, 2015 22:33:01 GMT
I believe Max of the Double D ( son of Parndon Bullfinch and a bull with a fantastic personality) is available for international export. However, he IS a carrier bull. Nico.. . . . Dexters are a dwarf breed. When you don't keep the dwarf genetics you end up with long legged non-carrier cattle which are taller, more xpensive to maintain. . . . and have the basically the same characteristics of Kerry cattle in that they are not commercially viable and don't have the same pet appeal. Kerry cattle are basically extinct. Dexters are in the midst of a favorable fad right now. . . . . but history has shown us here and abroad. . . this does not last and the long legs go first!
Judy
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 17, 2015 23:19:30 GMT
I believe Max of the Double D ( son of Parndon Bullfinch and a bull with a fantastic personality) is available for international export. However, he IS a carrier bull. Nico.. . . . Dexters are a dwarf breed. When you don't keep the dwarf genetics you end up with long legged non-carrier cattle which are taller, more xpensive to maintain. . . . and have the basically the same characteristics of Kerry cattle in that they are not commercially viable and don't have the same pet appeal. Kerry cattle are basically extinct. Dexters are in the midst of a favorable fad right now. . . . . but history has shown us here and abroad. . . this does not last and the long legs go first! Judy Hi Judy, It's for our society, not for my own. They need red since Planetree Talos isn't available any more. Max doesn't fit, his grandpa, Charley Pudding, has had to many progeny in Holland. For my own decission, only using non-shorts and breeding for the shorter type: As mentioned, I've seen lots of them. The biggest society in Germany has forbidden the carrier. They are more populair than ever, because what you see is what you get. I've seen the Harron herd from Veronica Schofield in England. She can sell as many cows she wants while others in UK have to bring young heifers to the slaughter. So: I'm not affraid for the market. I'm not affraid for the pet appeal either. When you were with us in Germany at the Grossensee farm you would be convinced these non-shorts are the nices pets in the world. Sired by Burnside Igel, a bull with a lot of Woodmagic blood (out of saltaire cow). Did you see real Woodmagics (with the prefix) in live? I've seen them and I liked them the same as I like the dwarfs. What a quality of udder and legs. And what a longlivety! For me it's practical to choose for these lines, that's why I've imported Harron cows and calfes and reserved Woodmagic Hedgehog 4th semen (als seen alive). and if... after a while I have to sell my own little non-shorts and there is no question from the market anymore, I can allways purchase a dwarf bull who will fit on all my cows then! OK about efficienty you have realy a point I have to investigate further. I'm sure there is some literature about that? I know a UK breeder (very commercial) with 2 groups, a short and a non-short group. The shorts have to wait more than a year longer before they may ran with the bull. He convinced that was inefficient, but he likes the shorts so much! Nico |
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 17, 2015 23:22:30 GMT
Belle Fourche Mr. Right was collected following the rules that would allow his semen to be exported to Canada. 100 straws of his semen were exported to Canada and stored in a Canadian storage facility, where it could be sold directly to Canadians. The requirements for collecting a bull's semen for exportation to other countries varies. In general, the requirements for collecting for Canada are less rigorous than for exporting to Australia or New Zealand, and quite a bit less demanding than for export to England. I haven't heard what the requirements for European countries are. Semen that has already been collected cannot be upgraded for export to a country with higher requirements. The process which is undertaken for approval to export involves test performed on the bull, not the semen. It requires a prolonged isolation period at an approved facility before the collection takes place. I know of an owner that refused to have their bull tested for export to England, because if he fails one of the tests he will be disqualified for domestic use, also. That test is not required for domestic or Canadian use. The rules for export are so funny (wierd, not haha). I was unable to export semen from my bull to Canada, since I didn't have him tested prior to collection. It cost too much (over 3 times) and required I leave him at the facility for 6 weeks. However, I could export the whole bull to Canada to be used as a breeding bull. I got an offer to buy him, take him to Canada, where he would breed the lady's herd, then resold to me. I think it would have been OK to have him collected while he was in Canada, for semen sales within Canada. I nixed the idea, because I wanted him here, not off traveling the world. He's my buddy. The answer is: "I can export embryos to Europe, but not semen. Gabriella'" Disappointing |
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Post by cascade on Feb 17, 2015 23:26:08 GMT
Kirk, You have stated on many occasions how medium sized Dexters will always breed true and dwarfs do not. Not all truly shorter (non-chondro) dexters will automatically breed true, but you can easily create a stabilized strain of shorter dexters that definitely WILL breed true. Most every feature you find in any plant or animal can be made to breed true with two exceptions: 1. Lethal genes can't breed true because they result in death in the homozygous state. Homozygosity is what makes plants and animals breed true. 2. Features that result from a blend of two co-dominant genes can't ever be made to breed true (for example, some species of pink flowers can NOT be made to breed true because they are the result of having one red gene and one white gene and those genes are co-dominant.... Whites CAN breed true and reds CAN breed true, but pinks can NOT breed true. Pinks are heterozygous co-dominants (red + white = pink). The Chondro gene qualifies as both of those cases, so they can NEVER breed true. Chondro-dwarfs have a normal ACAN gene and a broken ACAN gene and those genes are Co-dominant. Chondro-dwarfs result from a heterozygous blend of two co-dominant genes. Heterozygous = Hybrid = they can't breed true. True-breeding short dexters can be stablized to breed true (with enough time and skill) and you can also breed any imperfections out of them (given enough time and skill). You can NEVER stabilize chondro's because of the lethal issue and the hybrid co-dominant issue. |
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Post by cascade on Feb 17, 2015 23:48:24 GMT
Concerning Efficiency, it's well known that short, stocky animals are the most efficient. But Chondro only gives you that in 50% of your herd. If you want problem-free, short and stocky and efficient, why not have it in your entire herd with true-breeding short and stocky animals. There are 3 choices (at least) in Dexters 1. Tall and lanky and inefficient 2. Short and stocky and efficient from the lethal gene, but they don't breed true. 3. Short and Stocky and efficient true-breeding dexters that can be selected to mature quickly and thickly. www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/cows-without-legs-part-1-zbcz1412.aspx |
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Post by genebo on Feb 18, 2015 1:40:30 GMT
What kind of fiction has been perpetrated, that declares that the offspring of a dwarf Dexter must be taller than the offspring from non-dwarf Dexters? That makes no sense at all. The cattle are genetically identical. You have pulled off a major coup, getting a few people to buy into your made-up dimensions.
I will tell you some real, actual measurements from the offspring of dwarf Dexters. One of the finest Dexter bulls currently alive is Paradise Tullamore Dew, a non-dwarf Dexter bull. He is the son of Windridge Nollaig and Windridge Bantrybeth. Noelly was a dwarf, Beth was not. Noelly was 38" tall, Beth was 42" tall. Tullamore Dew is shorter than his dam. Much shorter than the maximum height for a bull as specified in the ADCA's breed guidelines.
Armstrong of Paradise is another really fine Dexter bull, one that you once pointed out as a prime example of your false shorts. His sire was a dwarf Dexter that measured 39" on his third birthday. His dam is the same Windridge Bantrybeth (42") as Tullamore Dew. Besides being a wonderfully conformed non-dwarf Dexter bull, Armstrong is no taller than his dam. At least as short as the examples of your false dwarfs you love to make claims about. Armstrong would qualify as a false dwarf by your standards.
Both of these great bulls are the sons of dwarf sires. You'll never find one to beat them, not for quality nor for size. Here's the biggest hurdle for you. These two are some of the gentlest bulls you are likely to come across. They are in every other respect exactly like any non-dwarf bull you can present. Not taller, not geneticlly inferior. The same. Except that they are both pure Dexters.
Remember to include them in your rants. They are the very ones you make such outrageous claims about. Someone should call you out about the falsehoods you are spreading. Well I just did. I supplied the proof that you are wrong. Dare you invite anyone to your farm with a measuring instrument to provide proof of the truth or fiction of your claims? I don't mean to invite you to scurry to your computer and start searching the internet for more pictures of other people's cattle and make up claims about them. I mean show us your own offspring of dwarf parents that are so outrageously tall, to prove your claims.
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Post by cascade on Feb 18, 2015 5:25:01 GMT
What kind of fiction has been perpetrated, that declares that the offspring of a dwarf Dexter must be taller than the offspring from non-dwarf Dexters? That makes no sense at all. If a farm relies on the lethal bone-defect Chondro-dwarfing gene to bring down the size of their dexters, then the bone defect simply hides the true larger genetic size of the animals and the breeder accomplishes NOTHING, and the non-chondro offspring can be quite large. If another farm excludes the lethal gene from their farm and focuses on breeding true-breeding shorter dexters without the lethal defect, then that breeder will make true genetic progress in keeping the breed truly compact. Some breeders can do both at the same time, but that's rare Here's an example of a fine-looking chondro-dwarf cow with her MUCH larger non-chondro calf  |
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 18, 2015 10:16:14 GMT
What kind of fiction has been perpetrated, that declares that the offspring of a dwarf Dexter must be taller than the offspring from non-dwarf Dexters? That makes no sense at all. The cattle are genetically identical. You have pulled off a major coup, getting a few people to buy into your made-up dimensions. I will tell you some real, actual measurements from the offspring of dwarf Dexters. One of the finest Dexter bulls currently alive is Paradise Tullamore Dew, a non-dwarf Dexter bull. He is the son of Windridge Nollaig and Windridge Bantrybeth. Noelly was a dwarf, Beth was not. Noelly was 38" tall, Beth was 42" tall. Tullamore Dew is shorter than his dam. Much shorter than the maximum height for a bull as specified in the ADCA's breed guidelines. Armstrong of Paradise is another really fine Dexter bull, one that you once pointed out as a prime example of your false shorts. His sire was a dwarf Dexter that measured 39" on his third birthday. His dam is the same Windridge Bantrybeth (42") as Tullamore Dew. Besides being a wonderfully conformed non-Dexter bull, Armstrong is no taller than his dam. At least as short as the examples of your false dwarfs you love to make claims about. Armstrong would qualify as a false dwarf by your standards. Both of these great bulls are the sons of dwarf sires. You'll never find one to beat them, not for quality nor for size. Here's the biggest hurdle for you. These two are some of the gentlest bulls you are likely to come across. They are in every other respect exactly like any non-dwarf bull you can present. Not taller, not geneticlly inferior. The same. Except that they are both pure Dexters. Remember to include them in your rants. They are the very ones you make such outrageous claims about. Someone should call you out about the falsehoods you are spreading. Well I just did. I supplied the proof that you are wrong. Dare you invite anyone to your farm with a measuring instrument to provide proof of the truth or fiction of your claims? I don't mean to invite you to scurry to your computer and start searching the internet for more pictures of other people's cattle and make up claims about them. I mean show us your own offspring of dwarf parents that are so outrageously tall, to prove your claims. Hello Gene, What a nice results you made with your dwarf bulls. When you have such a thru breeding bulls you don't need to change. But: look over the hedge to other farms. My experience and of a lot of people in Europe is that you can't predict what height a dwarf gives thru. With other words: you don't know what his genetical height is. You can only predict it by the information of the half of his pedigree (the non-shorts), or by his descendants (also regarding the mothers!). The chrondo effect on a dwarfs height is variously! especially on bulls. I have heard a lot of people complaining about their super small short bull (less than 36 inch) giving birth to daughters being inches taller than their mothers when they grow out. I don't want you to change your kind of breeding, it's a good method and if I were in your situation I probably did the same. But don't tell other people that they lie if they have other experiences with dwarfs. You can learn from these stories, like I learn about yours! |
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 18, 2015 10:43:21 GMT
   Lindehof Hitchcock (36 inch) and his son Wälhoeve Piet (48 inch) On the right his mother Wälhoeve Maria (42 inch). Also known progeny from him: Beek Maartje (42,5) mother 41,5 Dwarf daughter Susan from 41 inch Jennifer (46 inch) out of Kelly (39 inch dwarf) dwarf Red Bull (39 inch at 2,4 years) out of Nikita (42 inch) It proofs that it can happen, but not that it always is. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 18, 2015 12:28:47 GMT
What kind of fiction has been perpetrated, that declares that the offspring of a dwarf Dexter must be taller than the offspring from non-dwarf Dexters? That makes no sense at all. If a farm relies on the lethal bone-defect Chondro-dwarfing gene to bring down the size of their dexters, then the bone defect simply hides the true larger genetic size of the animals and the breeder accomplishes NOTHING, and the non-chondro offspring can be quite large. If another farm excludes the lethal gene from their farm and focuses on breeding true-breeding shorter dexters without the lethal defect, then that breeder will make true genetic progress in keeping the breed truly compact. Some breeders can do both at the same time, but that's rare Here's an example of a fine-looking chondro-dwarf cow with her MUCH larger non-chondro calf Kirk, you're doing it again with the photos, so I removed it from my reply to respect Judy's wishes,even though it would make the point I'm about to make even more impressive. I know you're using the photo to make a point, but let me give you some background on the "rest of the story". You'll probably want to delete your post (and the photo) once you've read my reply though, because it blows a hole in your constant bluster. I've been waiting for the perfect opportunity to spring it on you, and it's been hard, but now is the time. We purchased this dwarf Dexter cow at 17 months of age. We loved her size, and her pedigree. She is out of nearly totally traditional lines, other than one instance of Lucifer of Knotting 7 rows back in her pedigree. The steer you see with her was her first calf, and she had been bred by the owner a couple of months prior to our purchase of her. The prior owner was using a homozygous red polled Dexter bull of John Potter's breeding on her (We have a lot of them around because he lives in Michigan too). This polled steer (take a guess why we steered him) was 52 lbs. at calving, awfully big for such a small heifer. I'll give you some point of reference regarding the heights. The hips of the chondro cow are about level with the rail of the gate that is 36" high. The hips of the steer (and if you look closely even though it's partially obscured you can see the distinct shape of a polled head) are near the top of the gate rail which is 47" high. He appears lower than the top because I suspect I was crouching down to take the photo, but he was actually about the height of the gate at 27 months of age. We did have to assist, but unlike our other short cow Debbie (who was out of polled lines and bred back to her polled father) the result on this one was much better, since both the steer survived and the cow didn't have nearly the complications. I'd attribute that to the fact that we caught the early signs of her labor, and were able to assist early on, rather than with Debbie who had obviously been straining for some time on her calf, with dry legs sticking out of her and a cervix that had lost much of it's flexibility. Anyway, she has since had two other calves, sired by our long leg bull (no polled in his pedigree at all) with calving weights of 34 and 32 lbs. respectively. Both were short legged, and fairly short even as dwarf bulls go and required absolutely no assistance at all, in fact we showed up one morning and there they were. Now, I suppose I could be a jerk and since it worked once, I'd AI her to a big homozygous polled bull (so I don't have to keep and feed one myself) every time and cross my fingers for a steer such as this first one she had. Over and over again to really crank out the beef from a tiny cow that costs so little to keep. We like this girl way too much to do that to her and wear her out from that. Please acknowledge you've read and understood my post so I can commence ROFLMAO, I've waited a long time for this. Perhaps I'll get on the other proboards site and provide a link to this thread, it's too good not to share! On another note...I know you're Pacific time and we are far West Eastern time Zone, but I love your late posts that I can wake up to in the morning and respond to them so they sit there all day long. You better set your alarm clock a few hours earlier. |
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Post by nicosteintjesholland on Feb 18, 2015 14:29:59 GMT
If a farm relies on the lethal bone-defect Chondro-dwarfing gene to bring down the size of their dexters, then the bone defect simply hides the true larger genetic size of the animals and the breeder accomplishes NOTHING, and the non-chondro offspring can be quite large. If another farm excludes the lethal gene from their farm and focuses on breeding true-breeding shorter dexters without the lethal defect, then that breeder will make true genetic progress in keeping the breed truly compact. Some breeders can do both at the same time, but that's rare Here's an example of a fine-looking chondro-dwarf cow with her MUCH larger non-chondro calf Kirk, you're doing it again with the photos, so I removed it from my reply to respect Judy's wishes,even though it would make the point I'm about to make even more impressive. I know you're using the photo to make a point, but let me give you some background on the "rest of the story". You'll probably want to delete your post (and the photo) once you've read my reply though, because it blows a hole in your constant bluster. I've been waiting for the perfect opportunity to spring it on you, and it's been hard, but now is the time. We purchased this dwarf Dexter cow at 17 months of age. We loved her size, and her pedigree. She is out of nearly totally traditional lines, other than one instance of Lucifer of Knotting 7 rows back in her pedigree. The steer you see with her was her first calf, and she had been bred by the owner a couple of months prior to our purchase of her. The prior owner was using a homozygous red polled Dexter bull of John Potter's breeding on her (We have a lot of them around because he lives in Michigan too). This polled steer (take a guess why we steered him) was 52 lbs. at calving, awfully big for such a small heifer. I'll give you some point of reference regarding the heights. The hips of the chondro cow are about level with the rail of the gate that is 36" high. The hips of the steer (and if you look closely even though it's partially obscured you can see the distinct shape of a polled head) are near the top of the gate rail which is 47" high. He appears lower than the top because I suspect I was crouching down to take the photo, but he was actually about the height of the gate at 27 months of age. We did have to assist, but unlike our other short cow Debbie (who was out of polled lines and bred back to her polled father) the result on this one was much better, since both the steer survived and the cow didn't have nearly the complications. I'd attribute that to the fact that we caught the early signs of her labor, and were able to assist early on, rather than with Debbie who had obviously been straining for some time on her calf, with dry legs sticking out of her and a cervix that had lost much of it's flexibility. Anyway, she has since had two other calves, sired by our long leg bull (no polled in his pedigree at all) with calving weights of 34 and 32 lbs. respectively. Both were short legged, and fairly short even as dwarf bulls go and required absolutely no assistance at all, in fact we showed up one morning and there they were. Now, I suppose I could be a jerk and since it worked once, I'd AI her to a big homozygous polled bull (so I don't have to keep and feed one myself) every time and cross my fingers for a steer such as this first one she had. Over and over again to really crank out the beef from a tiny cow that costs so little to keep. We like this girl way too much to do that to her and wear her out from that. Please acknowledge you've read and understood my post so I can commence ROFLMAO, I've waited a long time for this. Perhaps I'll get on the other proboards site and provide a link to this thread, it's too good not to share! On another note...I know you're Pacific time and we are far West Eastern time Zone, but I love your late posts that I can wake up to in the morning and respond to them so they sit there all day long. You better set your alarm clock a few hours earlier. I don't see your point. You blaim the polledness of the sire for giving a big calf? You say the same cow has produced 2 other calfes who were lucky dwarfs. How big would they be if they were non-shorts, that's the question! greets Nico |
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