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Post by cascade on May 20, 2016 20:18:25 GMT
Describing Chondro Dexters is very simple to do, yet Professor Low didn't describe them in the mid 1800's, and the 1900 breed standard didn't describe them either.
It would have been very easy to describe Chondros using 1800's and early 1900's knowledge and language.... I can show you:
"Some Dexter cattle appear to have a form of Dwarfism that causes legs to be shorter than normal. When bred together, half of the time these dwarfs have calves just like the parents, but the other half of the time, they either have much taller calves, or else monster-looking dead calves."
I don't think any breed standard/description has ever described chondro. It appears as though chondro wasn't meant to be part of the breed.
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Post by lonecowhand on May 20, 2016 21:13:40 GMT
I think it describes Dexter Carriers to a tee! Stocky build, dished faces , prominent kind eye, short legs especially below the knee, Thick Horns! (I cant use italics here or I would)
They weren't describing chondro,(a condition)they didn't know it existed. All they knew is what they could see.
They liked what they saw and described it is part of the breed standard. Give it up. They were part of the bred before you were born.
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Post by jamshundred on May 20, 2016 21:26:50 GMT
You are right bill, it does. But we cannot expect the author of the thread to know this as he has little experience, ( more's the pity) with the dwarf cattle, as he is breeding miniature cattle, and it is the dwarf cattle from which all the desirable traits flow. The dwarf characteristics and the traits attached to them are likely what kept Dexters desirable versus the Kerry which verged on extinction. Frankly, the Dexter will come to that point because the polled cattle, for the most part, do not carry the dwarf genes. . . . . and their numbers will decrease as owners flee to more profitable polled cattle as the fad IS dying down. It was dwarfism that saved the Dexter in the past and will save it in the future for without it. . you have a generic cow much like others that do have commercial viability not present in Dexters.
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Post by lonecowhand on May 20, 2016 22:55:48 GMT
Judy, I am optimistic that the Legacy and Traditional Dexter organizations and the resulting renewed awareness will improve the breed and it's prospects over the long haul. There is no reason that Dexters need ever verge on extinction, with education and good breeding choices.
They just have so much going for them. They are anything but generic!
You all have been instrumental in the conservancy of this little breed, for which I thank you.
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Post by cascade on May 20, 2016 23:28:36 GMT
The old breed descriptions describe one single leg-type, body-type and head-shape. But with Chondro, you get 3 very different types including the dead bulldog-looking calves and some tall long-legged calves.
With true-shorts (non-chondro), one can select for 100% of calves born with the features exactly as described by Professor Low's description and the 1900 breed description.
Why do you "legacy" folks want to alter those old breed descriptions?
Are you saying that only 50% of the dexters in your "legacy" herd meet the old breed standards and you aren't working toward having 100% of your herds meet the old breed standards?
What about some of you "legacy" folks that don't have much Chondro, if any, in your herds, are you saying that your animals dont meet the 1900 breed description?
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Post by poco on May 21, 2016 1:18:21 GMT
I usually don't bother to log inot when I read the posts here, but I've felt the need to chime in.
Kirk, why do always provoke or have the need to be bait? You have no interest in doing what this part of the Dexter community is doing, why not go on your merry way? Is it something personal? If so, why not use good old emails or, better yet, the phone?
I've been watching the same discussion going round and round for years. Why can't you just let it go and accept that there are people with a different view than yours?
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Post by cascade on May 21, 2016 4:05:00 GMT
I feel a need to correct all the misinformation being posted on the internet about the Dexter breed.
I have an EXTREME interest in preserving heritage breeds like Dexters for their hardy natures, efficiency, and usefulness.
The people here claim they are the keepers of the tradition and they claim that all other people are messing up Dexters. On their new website, they say that other people are foolish for modifying the breed description after 1900.... and they claim to follow every unchanged word of the 1900 breed description, and I'm pointing out their hipocricy.
The people here are modifying the original breed description to meet their own needs, while claiming that they are following every word of it. They claim that horns are critical to the breed, yet many of them dehorn some of their dexters. They claim that Dexters are a dwarf breed and are supposed to all be chondro-dwarfs, but that's impossible because homozygous Chondros are born disfigured and dead 100% of the time.
If they want to make claims on the internet, they need to be able to substantiate and defend those claims... and they can't do that because their claims are illogical.... so they just use name-calling to cover up for the fact that they can't defend their claims.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 21, 2016 10:12:17 GMT
I feel a need to correct all the misinformation being posted on the internet about the Dexter breed. I have an EXTREME interest in preserving heritage breeds like Dexters for their hardy natures, efficiency, and usefulness. The people here claim they are the keepers of the tradition and they claim that all other people are messing up Dexters. On their new website, they say that other people are foolish for modifying the breed description after 1900.... and they claim to follow every unchanged word of the 1900 breed description, and I'm pointing out their hipocricy. The people here are modifying the original breed description to meet their own needs, while claiming that they are following every word of it. They claim that horns are critical to the breed, yet many of them dehorn some of their dexters. They claim that Dexters are a dwarf breed and are supposed to all be chondro-dwarfs, but that's impossible because homozygous Chondros are born disfigured and dead 100% of the time. If they want to make claims on the internet, they need to be able to substantiate and defend those claims... and they can't do that because their claims are illogical.... so they just use name-calling to cover up for the fact that they can't defend their claims. Excuse me Kirk, weren't you the one calling for the eventual elimination of the chondro Dexter just a couple of years ago on Olga's board? You know, the thread that ran to 20 pages and a thousand or so posts? How is that an "EXTREME interest in preserving"? Do us all a favor, put you money where your mouth is...raise a few chondro carriers in your herd, spend a little time with them, and then come back after a few year of raising them and tell us how bad they are after that. To get you off to a fast start, I have a little A2/A2 polled red chondro bull that you can use on a few of your favorite cows, and after he's bred a couple then you could probably easily find a buyer. I use him on a few cows that have polled in their pedigree way back. You could find buyers very easily for any heifers you don't want to keep either...There is a guy in California that has been calling me for a year now wondering if I have any red polled chondro heifers available to sell him, even if they have to be shipped from Michigan. Imagine...with all of the red polled cows being cranked out, he can't find any to purchase. Of course there is a 50 percent chance that he might produce a large "MONSTER" calf that might be as large as the ones you produce. No need to worry about disfigured dead ones though, because you can keep him in with all of your other bulls behind your 100% secure fence that won't permit any fence jumpers. And chondro carriers don't jump as high like yours probably do anyway  |
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Post by bruff64 on May 21, 2016 14:02:58 GMT
I am sure that this has not been studied yet but I would like to know if the upgrades have had any influence or produced any changes in the milk qualities of the polled Dexters compared to the Traditional. Having personally used both dexter and Kerry milk their qualities are near identical. Another very good reason to preserve original lines. The polled beef phenotype is billed as a dual purpose but have the original milk qualities been "improved" away? Outside the greater northeast it seems beef qualities predominate. The native Shorthorn that was common in New England is now near extinct due to crosses with Holss which they could not compete in their original form. Without pure old lines of Dexters around folks like Kurt may find they have lost some traits that they may desire back in the future. As I have no proof but I suspect that other polled crosses were made prior to dam genotype requirements
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Post by jamshundred on May 21, 2016 17:07:13 GMT
Just from breeding experience alone there had to be non dwarf cattle but what did they do with them? Did they register or cull? I have seen photos of a couple bulls that may have been non dwarf but only a very few cows. It is obvious the preferred genotype was dwarf. Long before Mrs. Rutherford began breeding long to short, Otto Jensen was advising Mr. Walker of the Cloverleaf herd to do just that to avoid any problems. From my breeding experience I believe the dwarf cattle MUST be kept to keep this breed viable. For those who fear dwarf to dwarf matings ( and there really is less to fear than the propoganda would lead you to believe once you know and understand the two different body types in the dwarf carriers), will have less fear with experience. Sometimes the bread will not rise for the new cook but they become accomplished with experience. There was still a loss to be realized.
Larry, i have been seeking a person who needs a project for a genetic or Ag PHD for this type of research. I know from experience that dwarf cattle are not only different in appearance but in breed traits. What has always interested me is what might be lost in breeding solely non-dwarf cattle versus breeding dwarf to non-dwarf, (which may produce the most productive amd reliable descendents of all possible matings). I do not doubt the outcrossing has brought in changes both internally and externally.
I do not think polled will carry the interest in the breed into the future for most are not carrying the dwarf genetics, and Dexter owners and breeders are notoriously fickle......jumping in and out rather quickly. Five years a breeder is longevity, 10-12 years is outside the norm. If an abiding interest in preserving the breed is not present the vagaries of the economy will rule. They follow the money. We are running out of fads to sustain the breed. I am quite serious that polled owners should be wary of the "White Dexters" especially now that polled lines are being developed. The curb appeal if they keep the size down with dwarf breedings will fuel the next wave of interest, and if they get smart and increase the numbers rapidly with embryo transplants so they have supply for the demand...........
Bazinga!
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 1:29:08 GMT
Larry, I have some polled and milk them. I can not tell the difference in the milk but I will say the ones I have do not have a very high percentage of the polled line. Only one instance and a way back. So to answer the question better you would need to find one that has a high percentage polled. in the line. I will say I see a difference in the udder more of a hairless jersey udder and small teats that are hard to hand milk.
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Post by cascade on May 22, 2016 18:27:04 GMT
Excuse me Kirk, weren't you the one calling for the eventual elimination of the chondro Dexter just a couple of years ago on Olga's board? You know, the thread that ran to 20 pages and a thousand or so posts? How is that an "EXTREME interest in preserving"? Do us all a favor, put you money where your mouth is...raise a few chondro carriers in your herd, spend a little time with them, and then come back after a few year of raising them and tell us how bad they are after that. To get you off to a fast start, I have a little A2/A2 polled red chondro bull that you can use on a few of your favorite cows, and after he's bred a couple then you could probably easily find a buyer. I use him on a few cows that have polled in their pedigree way back. You could find buyers very easily for any heifers you don't want to keep either...There is a guy in California that has been calling me for a year now wondering if I have any red polled chondro heifers available to sell him, even if they have to be shipped from Michigan. Imagine...with all of the red polled cows being cranked out, he can't find any to purchase. Of course there is a 50 percent chance that he might produce a large "MONSTER" calf that might be as large as the ones you produce. No need to worry about disfigured dead ones though, because you can keep him in with all of your other bulls behind your 100% secure fence that won't permit any fence jumpers. And chondro carriers don't jump as high like yours probably do anyway Professor Low's 1800's description, and the 1900 breed description of a Dexter herd do NOT say anything about Chondro. Those descriptions only talk about true-shorts (non-chondro) where EVERY animal is compact and has shorter legs. I'm trying to preserve those true short (non-chondro) genetics. The Lethal Chondro gene just sneaked in back then because it would have been hard to distinguish a lethal-gene-Chondro-dwarf, from a True-Breeding True-Short (non-chondro) with naturally short legs. I've got a 37" tall true-short super friendly heifer that gave me a very short-legged (non-chondro) A2/A2 Red Homozygous Polled bull this year that will likely be 40" at 3 years. He's got tons of potential. I've got lots of other homozygous polled A2/A2 bulls that will likely be 41" to 43" at 3 years of age. The originators of the breed described a true-short (non-chondro) breed where EVERY animal had shorter legs. That's what I'm working on preserving. Chondro just hides taller genetics and interferes with selecting for a herd of animals that completely fit the old breed description and the current breed description too. Cows with longer legs usually are going to go over the 42" maximum breed height at 3 years of age. I've never seen a Chondro-based herd where EVERY animal met the current breed description or the old breed description, and it's nearly impossible to do with Chondro, but very easy to do with True-Shorts. |
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Post by cascade on May 22, 2016 18:45:20 GMT
By the way, there is no such thing as "Dwarf Genetics". The Chondro-gene is just a stand-alone broken gene (lethal gene that causes a bone defect) that cattle either have or don't have. The chondro dwarf gene does NOTHING to reduce the true size of cattle genetics. It just hides the true size.
50% of the offspring of chondro-cattle do NOT carry the chondro-gene and have ZERO "dwarf genetics".
Yes, the primary important feature of Dexters is shorter size, but Chondro interferes with the process of selecting for an entire herd of shorter-sized dexters with truly shorter genetics.
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Post by cascade on May 22, 2016 19:31:31 GMT
I am sure that this has not been studied yet but I would like to know if the upgrades have had any influence or produced any changes in the milk qualities of the polled Dexters compared to the Traditional. Having personally used both dexter and Kerry milk their qualities are near identical. Another very good reason to preserve original lines. The polled beef phenotype is billed as a dual purpose but have the original milk qualities been "improved" away? Outside the greater northeast it seems beef qualities predominate. The native Shorthorn that was common in New England is now near extinct due to crosses with Holss which they could not compete in their original form. Without pure old lines of Dexters around folks like Kurt may find they have lost some traits that they may desire back in the future. As I have no proof but I suspect that other polled crosses were made prior to dam genotype requirements 1. "Traditional" Dexters have blank spots on their pedigrees, just like all dexters have blank spots on their pedigrees. There is no such thing as a dexter without some blank spots on their pedigrees, so they ALL have likely "upgrades". Further, Dexters originally came from a hodgepodge of genetics, there is no such thing as "Completely Pure Dexter Genetics". 2. There is no such thing as a "polled beef phenotype". The polled gene is a stand-alone gene (just like dun is a stand alone gene) that can be applied to any line of cattle with any features you want. Because the polled gene has been applied to many different lines, you can find polled animals in every phenotype possible. 3. There is no such thing as "completely pure old lines" since they all have holes on their pedigrees, but there are some lines with with varying features and I'm happy that various people try to maintain those various features. I'm a fan of people maintaining distinct lines... It's very good for the breed. I'm creating the Cascade line of cattle and I like to encourage others to create their own lines of Dexters based on the features that they think are important to them. I'd love to see some more people develop a true-line of truly short dexters with horns. Very few people have true lines. You can spot true lines when you see the same herd prefix over and over and over on a single pedigree. Very few true lines exist and very few breeders are attempting to create true lines these days. If you don't see the same herd prefix on the pedigree, over and over and over, then it's NOT a true line. 4. The Belle Fourche and Hillview herds were among the earliest adopters of polled Dexters and parentage testing. They did extensive parentage testing way way back, because they developed a homozygous polled test in about 2002, that depended on rigorous family DNA/parentage testing. So the source of many polled animals is definitely parentage proven, way before most anybody else was doing DNA testing. 5. Saltaire Platinum himself has been DNA proven to have just as pure of Dexter genetics as "traditional" dexters. Most polled dexters these days have 3 - 12% (or less) Saltaire platinum on their pedigrees. Saltaire Platinum's pedigree has ZERO non-dexters listed anywhere on the pedigree, there may be some unknown holes in his distant pedigree, but there are holes in the pedigrees of your "Traditional" dexters. |
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Post by bruff64 on May 22, 2016 19:37:00 GMT
Kyrk, do your "True Shorts" breed true shorts 100% of the time?
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Post by jamshundred on May 22, 2016 21:26:16 GMT
Kirk, your nose is growing so long the boogers have to be able to polish your shoes!
comment 1. Repeated yet again for however many times. All cattle have different breeds in their background. Even during recent decades new breeds are being developed from old as in Belmont, Panda, Covingtonshire, Kentshire, Burienshire, Barbee, Belted Milking Dexter, and quite a few others inccluding White Dexters.
comment 2. No argumemt presently but there ARE traits coming from the polled lines (like excessive white markings especially when bred with bloodlines of some other upgraded imports that were not showing up prior to the importations). Since scientists still have not identified the polled gene there is much to yet be discovered.
comment 3. Poppycock. Sounds like government issue speak it is so convoluted.
commemt 4. Not true. Neither herds maintained parentage confirmed herds. In actuality, Gene Bowen and myself were the first breeders to maintain parentage confirmed herds and to encourage others to do so. Shaun Lord was the third person to test her herd. Gabriella Namci did a lot of genotyping and testing and research with Dr. Schmutz on the polled, and she worked with Evelyn Anderson's herd, but she never tested nor parentage confirmed either entire herd.
5. You keep repeating this lie when you have been told repestedly it is false. When compared to only Legacy and traditional animals there is a considerable difference in the results. You CANNOT pretend away the polled, a trait from an outcrossing. You cannot pretend away the GRADE status of his pedigree. You cannot pretend away his four outcrossings. If what you do try to pretend was true than some od your fellow breeders could go to the sale barn, get a fine looking polled grade bull and make polled Dexters.
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Post by cascade on May 22, 2016 22:49:32 GMT
Kyrk, do your "True Shorts" breed true shorts 100% of the time? Yes, True Shorts can be made to breed truly short 100% of the time, just like blacks and reds and duns and polled can be made to breed true 100% of the time. The trick is in selecting for homozygosity in the responsible genes. It can take a good number of generations to stabilize, but it can easily be done over a couple of decades of breeding. On our farm, we're working on many things all at the same time.... bloat resistance, parasite resistance, disease resistance, polledness, A2, super friendliness, true-breeding shortness, milkiness, decent udders, decent legs, nice looking heads, etc... I can't just focus on true-shortness alone, or I could accomplish 100% true shortness much faster. While my entire herd of near 70 dexters isn't there yet, I could set you up with a small true-short herd including a true-short bull and five or six true-short cows, that would give you true-short Dexter calves that would meet the age-3 height guidelines 100% of the time. On the other hand, it's impossible to ever stabilize a feature that is the result of heterozygosity. Chondro Dwarfs are heterozygous for their shortness trait, so they can never be stabilized because the chondro homozygous condition is lethal. Breeding chondros is a waste of time and energy and doesn't give you lasting results. I'd love to see some of you guys work on your own true-short projects and create some lasting true-short lines of your own preferences under your own herd names and with the features you love, including horns. If you created lines that met the 1900 breed description EXACTLY (and also met the current breed description too), that would be an excellent and lasting accomplishment, and I'd be a big fan. |
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Post by bruff64 on May 23, 2016 0:31:23 GMT
As in all things a trait can be taken to an extreme. I would not want to be milking on my elbows. The polled factor aside I see beef phenotype in most of the red polled dexters offered today.
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Post by cascade on May 23, 2016 3:59:10 GMT
As in all things a trait can be taken to an extreme. I would not want to be milking on my elbows. The polled factor aside I see beef phenotype in most of the red polled dexters offered today. I agree with not wanting to take things to the extreme and wouldn't want to milk a too-short cow. Chondro's are often too short. True shorts can be selected to be just right for the milker and also to consistently fit the breed description for height (36" - 42" for cows at 3 years). I personally aim for about 40" cows at age three. The traditional early Dexter phenotype, as listed in the earliest descriptions (shorter legs and roundness of form) is more of a beef phenotype, than a dairy phenotype. Dexters should have a beefy phenotype, but with the ability to produce a reasonable amount of milk. |
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Post by legendrockranch on May 23, 2016 4:01:18 GMT
5. When compared to only Legacy and traditional animals there is a considerable difference in the results.
I'll believe this when I see the "proof" of your comment. I do not want listen or see written hearsay. Back this comment up with the report for us all to compare. |
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 23, 2016 11:13:06 GMT
There are more than a few newer bulls around I'd like to test for purity. When a well known breeder 8-10 or so years ago also has more than a few Lowline Angus cows, interspersed with some Dexter cows on their farm being bred with a polled Dexter bull, I'd like to know what happened to the calves from those Lowline cows...
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Post by bruff64 on May 23, 2016 14:56:07 GMT
Prior to the new ADCA dam genotype requirement it would have been quite easy to fudge by using a Dexter bull on a Lowlines cow and registering it as a Dexter from a different ADCA cow
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Post by jamshundred on May 23, 2016 15:40:29 GMT
Hello Barbara, good to see you.
The results nor the information forwarded to me belong to me. When the owner is ready to make them public it will be done. Meanwhile, Barbara, why don't you go ask UCD if there were other comparisons other than the one in your hand? My word is established as good and trustworthy and I trust the person who sent me the information.
What, might I ask does that piece of paper mean to you in the scope of things Barb? It is already known that since 75% plus of all the samples at UCD are descended from Saltaire Platinum, that a comparison with those samples cannot have validity. It is desperation to try and trade on bad science. Remember the world used to be square? Remember Pluto? Remember eggs are bad for you? Science founded on faulty information and data is faulty science.
The important assessment that will NOT change is the DNA in those bloodlines Barb. There are FOUR outcrosses, and three of them with animals whose heritage is not recorded. Those outcrosses are recorded in the English herd books and two of the Dexters in SP's pedigree recorded in error, have had the original breeding records acknowledged by the breeders to be accurate, and even the importer of the semen contacted one of these breeders in England and inquired when I published the information and it was confirmed the original herd book record was accurate, and then confirmed in writing by the importer. You can find that on another forum.
It is now past time to move this discussion a step further. In the beginning, the original error in the record likely reflected inexperience or lack of knowledge exacerbated by record filing deadline. A simple error. That progressed to negligence when available science was not required to be implemented to document theory of mutation. That is one of the errors. There are two others that are major and those published errors have been acknowledged by the breeders/owners. Now it progresses to the next stage, FRAUD. When the correct records exist, the accuracy of those records has been acknowledged, the existance of this information has been published, and the record is not corrected. . . . . . that is FRAUD. Hundreds of buyers around the world are being given pedigrees which infer purebred status when it is actually grade. I am quite certain consumer rights are being abridged, by the registering authorities and the sellers who are NOT divulging the truth to buyers. I quite well recall the old adage of "buyer beware", but these are modern times and there are modern laws to protect consumers from fraud. Perhaps more stringent in other areas of the world than here. Selling an animal with a pedigree that is known to be in error without advising the buyer can be defined as..........what? What word would you use Barb if not fraud?
Judy
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Post by legendrockranch on May 23, 2016 15:58:29 GMT
The results nor the information forwarded to me belong to me. When the owner is ready to make them public it will be done. Well, I'll believe it when I see it. |
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Post by teatpuller11 on May 23, 2016 16:17:36 GMT
I really dislike all the attacks. Dexters don't need this.
I'm sure I saw old posts on the Irish Dexter Cattle proboard somewhere that the first comparison was done with random samples, and Judy complained the result was invalid because Saltair descendants were included (like she has here). The lab then retested using just animals from the Legacy list, AND THE RESULT WAS THE SAME. No evidence from either test that the polled Saltair had anything other than standard genetics found in the Dexter breed.
If this is true, and Im only going by what I've read, then legendrockranch is right. Why is this still being debated? |
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Post by legendrockranch on May 23, 2016 17:08:02 GMT
I said nothing about a second report or any results, Judy did and I asked for a copy of that report. Buy the way you spelled Saltaire wrong.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 23, 2016 19:23:16 GMT
Prior to the new ADCA dam genotype requirement it would have been quite easy to fudge by using a Dexter bull on a Lowlines cow and registering it as a Dexter from a different ADCA cow You can still do it Larry. Just buy a Lowline cow, genotype her calves and list them as the calves of an old Dexter cow, one that had a bull that you're going to steer, or even a deceased one you haven't reported yet that was born prior to this year. Nobody checks the markers until you try to parent verify. It's going to take 10-15 years before those cows age out. Then there seems to be so much secrecy on the part of some to the genotypes and the specific marker numbers. Who would like to see some of mine? I've nothing to hide. |
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Post by legendrockranch on May 23, 2016 21:17:33 GMT
News flash, DNA genotyping parentage verifying is a relatively new thing (in the US) for the Dexter breed probably less than 10 years. So the purity of many many Dexters should/could be put into question. Not much that can be done about that now. So "fudging" probably has been around as long as the Dexter breed has been in the U.S.
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Post by lonecowhand on May 23, 2016 21:48:08 GMT
Up until the 1990's , there should have been no need or incentive to "fudge" or misrepresent a pedigree, since prior to that time there were no unique or unusual marketable features which would make one animal more expensive or desirable than another, other than perhaps having come from a good line, or having been an award winning animal.
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Post by legendrockranch on May 23, 2016 22:19:09 GMT
Up until the 1990's , there should have been no need or incentive to "fudge" or misrepresent a pedigree, since prior to that time there were no unique or unusual marketable features which would make one animal more expensive or desirable than another, other than perhaps having come from a good line, or having been an award winning animal. Well than why in the heck do we need it now??? Did you really just say that? So if it looked like a Dexter and had horns plus was small it was a Dexter? Sorry, I was on the pedigree committee for a time and I can tell you for a fact there we many errors connected to horned animals. |
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