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Post by lakeportfarms on May 23, 2016 22:21:53 GMT
Exactly correct lonecowhand. When Dexters that were polled were selling for twice the price of the horned (and dehorned) variety, there is an awful lot of incentive to insure that you had them to sell to those who wanted them. Prior to the 90's, if you had a "polled" Dexter, pretty much anybody would have assumed that the neighbors Angus jumped the fence, and that calf was only worth a grade animal price.
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Post by legendrockranch on May 23, 2016 22:31:26 GMT
Lakeport please put these rumors your are spreading to rest, and list names? Until than they are nothing more that that just rumors.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 23, 2016 22:32:26 GMT
Up until the 1990's , there should have been no need or incentive to "fudge" or misrepresent a pedigree, since prior to that time there were no unique or unusual marketable features which would make one animal more expensive or desirable than another, other than perhaps having come from a good line, or having been an award winning animal. Well than why in the heck do we need it now??? Did you really just say that? So if it looked like a Dexter and had horns plus was small it was a Dexter? Sorry, I was on the pedigree committee for a time and I can tell you for a fact there we many errors connected to horned animals. Because it's also used as a means to add legitimacy to the polled Dexter. Looky see, my Dexters are parentage verified so they're legitimate, no outcrossing! Newbies don't realize it's only as good as what you started with. Maybe some were aware of monkey business going on, and figured it would help curtail it. So the small breeder of horned Dexters with only one bull and a couple/three cows is now going to have to pay extra because there are some legitimate questions being posed about how much the phenotype of the breed has changed since the introduction of polled. Face it Barb, your Dexters look nothing like mine or the others' Dexters that post here, and I'm not just talking about the lack of horns.
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Post by legendrockranch on May 23, 2016 22:40:08 GMT
Well than why in the heck do we need it now??? Did you really just say that? So if it looked like a Dexter and had horns plus was small it was a Dexter? Sorry, I was on the pedigree committee for a time and I can tell you for a fact there we many errors connected to horned animals. Face it Barb, your Dexters look nothing like mine Do you really think I want my Dexters to look like yours?
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 23, 2016 22:43:00 GMT
Lakeport please put these rumors your are spreading to rest, and list names? Until than they are nothing more that that just rumors. I list names from 8 years ago and you'll say prove it, which I can't, and then file ethics charges against me or something. All I'll say is that I'm not the only one who knows about it, I have had personal face to face conversations with three other breeders who knew about it, and e mail conversations with two others who have heard about it from other sources and even added other background information that ties it all together. Sorry Barb, but for me it's a stain on some of the polled Dexter lines that I know about and I can't wash it off. It makes me feel at times like I am wasting my money raising registered Dexters.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 23, 2016 22:49:22 GMT
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Post by legendrockranch on May 23, 2016 22:49:45 GMT
Are you absolutely sure these animals were not registered in the Lowline upgrade registry?
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Post by cascade on May 24, 2016 0:29:18 GMT
I certainly don't have any 1-1/2 year old bulls that look like this, I'll grant you that. Dexters have tons of diversity of size in their backgrounds because Chondro-breeders have hidden the true genetic size of their overly large dexters using the chondro-gene to make fake-short cattle over the years. Those chondro-shorts have MUCH larger genetics hidden by the chondro gene. Lakeport, here's a photo you've shared of one of your giant bulls born to a chondro mom that obviously has some huge genetics hidden by the chondro gene.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 24, 2016 1:26:46 GMT
That's a 28 month old steer Kirk. And he hung at 460 lbs. That's not especially heavy for a Dexter steer. In fact, I recently saw an online post from a breeder who has a lot of polled about a 24 month old steer hanging at 600 lbs., a full 140 lbs. more than this steer.
If you paid attention, you'd see that the gate they are behind is sitting on the ground, and the top bar is 48" and the second to the top rail is 32" tall. Do you have any 4 year old 32" tall Dexter cows that are capable of weaning a calf as tall as she is at 9 months and 92% of her body weight and ultimately producing a 460 lb. hanging weight steer? Never mind, I'm sure you don't.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 24, 2016 1:30:19 GMT
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Post by legendrockranch on May 24, 2016 3:01:09 GMT
First of all I have never used the words "true short" your mind is failing you. Second of all that picture is deceiving. I will go through the videos and pictures of the bull that I was sent by the Laffeys plus a few news paper articles about them.
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Post by legendrockranch on May 24, 2016 3:43:18 GMT
Hans, you never answered by question. The Dexter breeder you are spreading rumors about, are you sure those animals weren't registered in the Lowline upgrade registry?
Since you were the first to make a personal comment about one of my animals. Below is something not said by me, but by other cattlemen on the"Cattle Today" forum regarding a picture one of your cows. Or darn I guess you were so embarrassed by the picture and her udder you removed it. Mud slinging doesn't feel so good does it.
facebook.com/pages/Lakeport-DexterHighland-Farm/204103669622017#!/photo.php?fbid=427799517252430&set=a.362496457116070.87621.204103669622017&type=3&theater
Here's a little education, your cow has a "blown" udder. Would have been culled by most on this forum, or anyone else who is "knowledgeable" regarding cattle!
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 24, 2016 10:09:07 GMT
What's your problem Barb? Why the sudden urge to come here to comment? And yes, the cow with the "blown" udder, she's still on our farm, Fisher Creek Rosie. She's a prodigious milk producer, upwards of 4-1/2 gallons/day, and the photo of her was immediately after calving and she had serious udder edema. The prior owner probably should have taken a few minutes and milked down her back quarters in prior lactations at first to help relieve it.
It's not the nicest udder after the swelling goes down, after being so large it has no chance to look tight after all, but Rosie raises great steers and the two daughters of hers that we also own have extremely nice udders, one of whom is 7 years old and in her 5th lactation, Horn Farms Michelle. I've even line bred Rosie to her father Mike and had great results. When Rosie's daughter LaRee freshens, I'll post a photo of her on Facebook of her udder, and you can judge for yourself what she looks like. I will predict quite easily that there are going to be 100 plus likes, and probably more than a few comments by members of the page saying that they wish they had cows with an udder like Laree's. Look for it...LOL, actually, I'll tag you and point out that this is the line bred daughter of the cow that you thought had a terrible udder here, and then you can come back here and eat crow, or better yet just eat crow on the FB page for all to see...LMAO I'm laughing so hard right now, I'm tempted to scan through the thousands of photos on my computer to see if I happen to have one from last year when LaRee calved. You have no idea do you?
And why would somebody take Dexter/Lowline cows (and likely bulls) and register them as percentage Lowlines and sell them for 1/2 price of what they could get as purebred registered Dexter cattle 10 years ago when some Dexter breeders were clamoring for them? Is this speculation on your part, or have you heard these "rumors" elsewhere and you're withholding your information about it, because if true it would seriously damage the reputation of polled Dexters in general? Do I sense a conspiracy to remain silent by those breeders who have knowledge and have vested their entire genetics and a considerable amount of money in polled Dexters? It sure seems to hit a raw spot with you.
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Post by chautauqua on May 24, 2016 11:54:24 GMT
Speaking of a good laugh, take a look at the bull from Tennessee posted on the Region11 site (probably elsewhere too). He is a total distortion of a dual purpose Dexter bull. Not sure how a poll breeder can keep a straight face while claiming that totally beef bull is a Dexter. Who knows what is in his background, only a fool not knowing the breed will say he's a Dexter!
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 24, 2016 12:44:50 GMT
I saw him. All I can say is wow... A quick history about us for those who don't know...we started off with Angus, including two Lowlines, who should have been bred because they were exposed to a bull for several months prior to our purchase. My wife is very good at thinking ahead, and she still wanted to get a bull so that when they calved we'd be set to have them bred again. So she started searching, and found that the Angus bulls were just too large for her liking. So she ran across the Dexter breed, and decided that would be a good way to go since we only had a half dozen, and we had no plans to sell to anybody but family and friends. Our first bull was 4 year old Mike, a chondro carrier, and when we purchased him we also got a small Dexter cow, Dinsmore Farms Cedar. I remember picking them up. They were in stalls in a beautifully kept barn, and when it was time to move them into the trailer we got behind Mike with a board and pushed him down the narrow aisle and around a corner into the waiting trailer at the door. I remember thinking I was crazy having only a board between me and a bull, even though he was only waist high on me. He looked and felt very powerful to me as a newbie, but I was more comfortable with him because he was just waist high than I ever would have been with a larger bull.
When the due date arrived for the Angus, only one of them calved. 9 months to the date that Mike arrived on our farm, the other Angus cows calved. So Sheril was very wise to get a bull sooner rather than later.
I'm very thankful that our first exposure to Dexters was a bull like Mike and a cow like Cedar. I feel kind of sorry for many buyers today who haven't really dug into the recent history of Dexters, and just starting out get something that I, even as experienced as we are with cattle now, would be a bit intimidated with. If it was that bull on the FB page that had been my first experience, I'm not sure I would have gotten into Dexters, and we may have ultimately sold our cows (who were on track to disappoint us with no calves), and stuck with goats instead to clean up our property. So I kind of question how much these large polled bulls are stimulating interest in the breed.
By the way, we sold our Angus and Lowlines within a few years of getting Mike, and started to acquire Dexters to replace them. Some of the crosses were very nice. But I would never call them Dexters.
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Post by legendrockranch on May 24, 2016 12:50:55 GMT
Sorry Hans it does not hit any raw spot with me. Rumors do not suit you and you are the only person being hurt by spreading them. Again please answer the question, are you "sure" those Lowline/Dexters crosses were not registered in the Lowline upgrade registry. At that time percentage Lowline were not selling for half the price as a purebred registered Dexter cattle 10 years. Lowline were the next new thing, people who couldn't afford purebred Lowline were buying percentage. Just like they are doing now with Waygu.
Interesting that I am being attacked for trying to squash nothing more than rumors.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 24, 2016 13:49:11 GMT
Barb, look back through the posts. You started it off. We were all getting along fine here until you popped in. And again I ask why would a breeder who's primary focus is on registered polled Dexters venture off into the Lowline breed?
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Post by legendrockranch on May 24, 2016 14:30:50 GMT
I popped in this forum for a totally different reason, to ask Judy for copies of the report about Saltaire. In reality the person who started bashing on totally a different subject spreading rumors was you. Same as you are doing now about the size of a Dexter on another forum. Can't you be happy with what you breed? Why do you feel the need to attack others because they choose to breed something different than you.
Edited to add: Here is your post that started it. Look back to see my prior post.
May 23, 2016 6:13:06 GMT -5 lakeportfarms said:
There are more than a few newer bulls around I'd like to test for purity. When a well known breeder 8-10 or so years ago also has more than a few Lowline Angus cows, interspersed with some Dexter cows on their farm being bred with a polled Dexter bull, I'd like to know what happened to the calves from those Lowline cows...
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Post by jamshundred on May 24, 2016 16:07:16 GMT
I have no idea. . . . who or what. .. . . but something is not quite right in the numbers. Saltaire Platinum semen was imported in 1994. The US registration number was 6504. For 85-90 years of Dexter breeding in America only 6500 Dexters were registered. How many of that number do you suppose were living and breeding in 1994? In a short ten years the registration numbers in ADCA for late year registrations in 2004 numbered in the 16000s. That was an extraordinary explosion in such a small breed. It would seem that nearly every cow bred, had a living calf and nothing was seemingly culled. ( Hans this would be a good math research project for a stats bases class, huh)?
Sometime during that period the appearance of the polled cattle began to change. Not only to look more like beef cattle in the body but also around the head and neck. One would think that with the concentration of the one patriarch in the lines, his phenotype would begin to settle in. . . but it seems the opposite began to occur. His unknown beef genes began to dominate in the descendents? I don't think so. Did the drift away from the actual phenotype of Platinum himself in particular, and the traditional Dexter breed in general . . . happen because of other factors? ( Additional outcrossing?).
When ADCA began genotyping only bulls I said it was the wrong sex to type. Purposeful cheating happens with females. Barb, I am confident you saw errors while on the pedigree committee. I see errors. . .. but the errors I see are not from outcrossing. . . .. they are still Dexters. It is just that a Dexter parent is mis-identified. My personal experience is that Dexter owners have done a good job in years past with their breeding records.
Judy
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Post by legendrockranch on May 24, 2016 18:12:57 GMT
Most of the errors I saw were wrong Sire or Dam. Some were never able to be worked out so who knows what they were. By far the worst case was actually here in Texas which included many animals that were crossed with another breed. The herd was dispersed due to the death of the owner. Nothing could ever be proven 100%. No breed testing or DNA testing was available at the time.
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Post by lonecowhand on May 24, 2016 21:05:29 GMT
Sorry, Barbara! yes , said it but not clearly! What I was getting at was people wanted to know their cattles'pedigrees, and that they were purebred, but there was no unique or contested lineage (polled) as there is now.
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Post by legendrockranch on May 24, 2016 21:13:31 GMT
What about spotted Dexters? Look back and see about those. There is a great picture of one I'll have to find for you. "Dexter steer bred and exhibited by the Prince of Wales (in late 19th century??) (From Ted Neal's "The Life and Times of Dexters", page 14)". posted previously on this board. dex-info.blogspot.com/2009/01/summary-5-royal-farmers.html
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Post by bruff64 on May 25, 2016 13:00:18 GMT
It very clear that the breed has split in 2 directions. That's just a reality that's got to be accepted. The polled cattle are likely to drift farther towards a beef phenotype as that is where the money is. I see no reason to panic over smaller numbers of traditional type Dexters. There really is no more argument, the respective paths are clear
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Post by teatpuller11 on May 25, 2016 21:12:14 GMT
Hi Bruff:
but, here's all these comments about people breeding for polled because of the money to be made, but what about those who openly cross with, say Highlands, and boast they can't breed'm fast enough and how they can charge whatever they like for them? Didn't lakeport just boast he turned down $7,000 for a red shortleg heifer? Tell me it isn't about the money!
And what about those special, hardly any left legacy animals that command a better price because a few people claim they are sooooo rare? I don't think Judy is breeding legacy just to get rich, but I think there are others who are?
Seems to me there's all this bashing going on, but the pot is blacker than the kettle. The same thing goes for the traditional breeders claiming mis-registrations with other breeds if polled is involved, but also claim anyone with more than just legacy cattle is honorable.
Cascade dexters may be pulling our chain, and forcing us to think twice, but he's not personally attacking us. The same can't be said for lakeport or genebo or judy. It takes no time at all for the comments to get downright nasty. Doesn't this just make us look worse and worse?
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Post by bruff64 on May 25, 2016 22:20:37 GMT
My money comment may have been inaccurate I'll agree. I am not in it for the money so that aspect is irrelevant to me. I think realistically we have 2 breeds or will have in the near future. A lot of this banter would cease if all parties acknowledged that and operated that way. There is too much effort and energy trying to hold together something that no longer exists. Classic action begets reaction. The Devo folks split many years ago and there is harmony.
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Post by bruff64 on May 25, 2016 22:21:21 GMT
Devon
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 25, 2016 22:45:13 GMT
Hi Bruff:
but, here's all these comments about people breeding for polled because of the money to be made, but what about those who openly cross with, say Highlands, and boast they can't breed'm fast enough and how they can charge whatever they like for them? Didn't lakeport just boast he turned down $7,000 for a red shortleg heifer? Tell me it isn't about the money!
And what about those special, hardly any left legacy animals that command a better price because a few people claim they are sooooo rare? I don't think Judy is breeding legacy just to get rich, but I think there are others who are?
Seems to me there's all this bashing going on, but the pot is blacker than the kettle. The same thing goes for the traditional breeders claiming mis-registrations with other breeds if polled is involved, but also claim anyone with more than just legacy cattle is honorable.
Cascade dexters may be pulling our chain, and forcing us to think twice, but he's not personally attacking us. The same can't be said for lakeport or genebo or judy. It takes no time at all for the comments to get downright nasty. Doesn't this just make us look worse and worse? Teatpuller I don't represent the Highland with a little Dexter that I produce as registered purebred Highlands. Furthermore, in order to create such a breed it takes years of effort and a little bit of luck to keep increasing the share of Highland and still retain the chondro gene. Unlike Cascade, I don't agree that one gene (chondro) stands alone without other genes coming along for the ride. All you have to do is compare the hair between our first generation cross and our 5th generation breeding to see that the hair increases from one to the other. Like it or not, if you breed to 75% Dexters together you're still only going to get 75% Dexter. Joanie Storck with her "White Dexters" has been doing it the same way, gradually increasing the percentage of Dexter while keeping the white with black points on her cattle. And she doesn't try to register them in the ADCA, PDCA, or Legacy. They're registered with the organization in Washington that Grandwohl or something like that started. I'm guessing you may have known him? Conversely, if somebody takes a registered heterozygous polled Dexter bull, and wants to increase the odds of getting a homozygous polled calf so they breed him to a say, Lowline Red Angus cow that is posing as a registered Dexter, you have a 50% Dexter and a 50% Angus no matter what the pedigree says.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 25, 2016 22:54:34 GMT
What about spotted Dexters? Look back and see about those. There is a great picture of one I'll have to find for you. "Dexter steer bred and exhibited by the Prince of Wales (in late 19th century??) (From Ted Neal's "The Life and Times of Dexters", page 14)". posted previously on this board. dex-info.blogspot.com/2009/01/summary-5-royal-farmers.html First of all it's a steer, so not a breeding bull... But I suppose if you're the Prince of Wales you can call whatever you have a Dexter, and the subjects will have no choice but to agree with you.
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Post by lakeportfarms on May 25, 2016 23:07:03 GMT
My money comment may have been inaccurate I'll agree. I am not in it for the money so that aspect is irrelevant to me. I think realistically we have 2 breeds or will have in the near future. A lot of this banter would cease if all parties acknowledged that and operated that way. There is too much effort and energy trying to hold together something that no longer exists. Classic action begets reaction. The Devo folks split many years ago and there is harmony. Larry, I agree completely. It's going to happen sooner or later, and I'd frankly prefer it sooner. Here is the problem (for the polled breeders) First of all, they're benefiting by trading on the Dexter name. Second, and probably more relevant. What is their unique identity? Polled? What about the heterozygous polled Dexters and what happens when they produce a horned calf? Say they change the name to the APDCA (American Polled Dexter Cattle Association) They no longer fit the main breed characteristic. The problem is that those that choose the Traditional Dexter are being treated like the red headed stepchild. Some of us are tired of it. We're needed for legitimacy, but other than that I think they'd prefer we just go away.
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Post by lonecowhand on May 25, 2016 23:11:19 GMT
Bruff, the panic is preservation-effort related. Most on this board feel quite strongly that the traits of the traditional Dexter are endangered, and the fact that there are less than 15% of Dexters that would fit the Traditional classification is cause for concern, or alarm. Out West of the Rockies , there used to be many "traditional" types, they are not to be found, having been bred to polled.
We are urged not to fight, but it is difficult to let some certain types of antagonistic comments "lie" without rebuttal.
Teatpuller,Those "special, hardly any left" Legacy animals ARE special. They are the last ones of their types, only still there at all due to closed herds during the "period of concern" ( breeding for polled and red). Most folks here believe there has been a huge change in phenotype with polled breeding, and are concerned with the preservation breeding of as original a Dexter type as still exists. Some argue elsewhere there is no difference, mostly those who breed polled.
I guess you'd need to look WAY back to see why the comments made by Cascade are responded to as they are here. You reap what you sow! As far as hurting the breed, it's okay , they can't read.
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