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Post by jamshundred on Sept 24, 2017 13:50:05 GMT
I see Hans has an older cow being shipped to him from Texas. It offers opportunity to discuss another issue rarely mentioned.
It is important to keep a very close eye on an older/senior cow. Longer than most new animals that arrive and are quarantined for some period of time. Older cows are like most older humans. Takes some time to adapt to life changes.
Be on the alert for depression. A long trip is very stressful for an animal, and they are given shots to ward off respiratory illness caused by the stress effect on the immune system but there is another factor rarely considered. Sadness. Senior cattle will become depressed and lonely leaving their comfortable pastures and herd mates and it is more difficult for the older cows to find and establish their place in a new herd. With considerable geographic relocation also comes different forage weather and atmospheric conditions. The fear and sadness from all the change will add extra risk to an already stressed immune system.
You really have to keep a very close eye on senior animals after relocation.
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Post by genebo on Sept 25, 2017 0:52:27 GMT
When Judy had Wee Gaelic Ms Fermoy brought to me to be bred to Brenn, she also had Talisman Babriella brought along to keep her company and help make her feel at home.
It worked very well. When Ms Fermoy couldn't carry a calf to term, Gabriella went along with her to Dr. Fulper's clinic while Ms Fermoy was being flushed.
I believe that having Gabriella by her side through all this travelling made a big difference to Ms Fermoy. She flourished during all the strain and effort of traveling required.
Ms Fermoy left here to go to the University of Georgia for further attempts at flushing. Gabriella did not go along. We got 7 embryos from her at Dr. Fulper's clinic. UGA only got one in several attempts and it did not take in the recipient cow. If Gabriella had been allowed to accompany her ......
Ms Fermoy was 19 years old by then.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 25, 2017 12:47:53 GMT
All good suggestions Judy. We have some other senior chondro carriers for Inky to hang out with, and we're also getting a younger 4BarL Caitriona, another Traditional lines chondro carrier, from Jennifer who we will pasture with her as well. So she will have some familiar faces as Ms. Fermoy did. I wouldn't have put Inky through the trip otherwise, but sadly her other option could have been the freezer. More worrisome for me is the transition in the climate. Although it's been record setting hot here the past couple of days, we're due to be in the 50's later this week for highs, and it's only going to get colder.
According to our "resident chondro expert who has never owned (or maybe has never even seen one in person) Kirk Cascade", Inky is the equivalent of a 30 year old non-carrier Dexter. Anybody know of any 30 year old Dexters out there?
Also, we have an excellent shipper. We have used him extensively the past year, and Inky will have her own compartment and not have to be shuffled around on the trailer from compartment to compartment, or mixed with others.
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Post by cascade on Sept 25, 2017 14:09:32 GMT
" Big Bertha (17 March 1945 – 31 December 1993) was born in Ireland on 17 March 1945, St Patrick's Day. She was bought at a cattle fair by farmer Jerome O'Leary and lived at his farm near the market town of Kenmare in County Kerry, southwest Ireland.
Big Bertha held two Guinness World Records: she was the oldest cow recorded, dying just three months short of her 49th birthday, and she also held the record for lifetime breeding, having produced 39 calves. "
BD1 Chondrodysplasia (aggrecan deficiency) makes joints last about 10 years less than they otherwise would if those joints had full aggrecan (nature's shock absorber for joints).
Hans, there is no record of your new 19 year old cow having BD1 Chondrodysplasia. Can you please post her DNA test.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 25, 2017 14:44:55 GMT
" Big Bertha (17 March 1945 – 31 December 1993) was born in Ireland on 17 March 1945, St Patrick's Day. She was bought at a cattle fair by farmer Jerome O'Leary and lived at his farm near the market town of Kenmare in County Kerry, southwest Ireland. Big Bertha held two Guinness World Records: she was the oldest cow recorded, dying just three months short of her 49th birthday, and she also held the record for lifetime breeding, having produced 39 calves. " BD1 Chondrodysplasia (aggrecan deficiency) makes joints last about 10 years less than they otherwise would if those joints had full aggrecan (nature's shock absorber for joints). Hans, there is no record of your new 19 year old cow having BD1 Chondrodysplasia. Can you please post her DNA test. Where are the 30 year old Dexter cows? Show me one still producing calves on the ADCA pedigree at 20 or 25 years of age. Maybe you can find a few, but out of the tens of thousands of Dexter cows on the pedigree page. Dinsmore Farm Inky does not have her Chondrodysplasia status listed on the ADCA page, however she has been tested, and is positive. She's also the progeny of a known chondro carrier bull, Stutzman's Dutch. We happen to have owned Dinsmore Farm Cedar, who was a tested chondro carrier and also out of Stutzman's Dutch. Cedar lived to 16 years of age, when she could no longer produce any calves. She was used as a milk cow for her entire life until the very end. Cedar was getting around just fine with zero signs of arthritis. We have Cedar's daughter, Fisher Creek Farm Luc, who is 15 years old, a non-carrier, and is still healthy and strong and producing calves, with a beautiful udder. In fact, we have two bulls that we are evaluating out of Luc as future bulls. You know damn well that she is a carrier, and clearly your insistence that I produce a test report is just your way of deflecting that a chondro carrier can live to an advanced age without arthritis. Using your logic that they can't be a carrier unless there is a test means that there are only 803 chondro positive carriers EVER in the ADCA, out of 38,597 Dexters. Since that amounts to around 2% of all Dexters (in Kirk world), your constant obsession with the chondro carrier is both amusing and a waste of time.
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Post by cascade on Sept 25, 2017 17:47:49 GMT
I'm obsessed with science, and facts.
Lots of things can make an animal shorter. The BD1-chondrodysplasia gene is one of many things. You can't assume that a shorter animal has a BD1 gene, until you see the test result.
If this 19 year old cow actually has the BD1 gene (with a test), and has Chondrodysplasia, and if she is still moving very well without pain, it could mean that she has otherwise exceptional joint genetics, to help offset her aggrecan deficiency.
I'd hope to get a non-chondro offspring out of her.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 25, 2017 19:10:12 GMT
There's no accounting for bad taste. "You don't know what you've been missing until it arrives".
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 25, 2017 19:14:45 GMT
I'm not sure I buy the Big Bertha story. I'd just about need DNA confirmation. It sort of sound likes "one of those stories" that grows wings. ( Or years).
A 49 year old cow would be the same as a human being 200 -225 years of age. I think there was an unknown substitution along the way. Or a couple of them.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 26, 2017 12:24:31 GMT
I'm obsessed with science, and facts. Lots of things can make an animal shorter. The BD1-chondrodysplasia gene is one of many things. You can't assume that a shorter animal has a BD1 gene, until you see the test result. If this 19 year old cow actually has the BD1 gene (with a test), and has Chondrodysplasia, and if she is still moving very well without pain, it could mean that she has otherwise exceptional joint genetics, to help offset her aggrecan deficiency. I'd hope to get a non-chondro offspring out of her. That's funny, after she calves this year, I plan to breed her to one of our Traditional lines bulls that carries red, and get a shortie heifer or bull out of her. I'm kinda hoping a for a bull, that I can ultimately use on some of our Traditional lines red or carries red Dexters to produce some nice red Traditional heifers or bulls, either short or long leg varieties. They all have exceptional udders, great conformation, they're between 40-42" in height at 5 plus years of age, and extremely good temperaments. I'm thinking of a whole herd of Traditional lines red shorties running around our pastures in 10 years, with our little shortie high percentage Highlands in the pasture next to them. Did you see that little 1 day old silver short leg Highland bull that we had available for sale recently on FB? I had a bidding war for him, chondrodysplasia and all..... So if I breed Inky to a tested non-carrier bull, and she produces a tested short leg carrier bull or heifer, would you then accept that she has chondrodysplasia? Or would you still insist that she may not have chondrodysplasia, and instead claim that it must be....... a fresh mutation?
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Post by teatpuller11 on Sept 26, 2017 13:45:27 GMT
Lakeport, would your breeding choices put you in the other camp? I thought breeding for red was one of those bad fad things? And I suppose boasting about the bidding war would also put you at risk for being attacked for making breeding choices for profit?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 26, 2017 19:15:27 GMT
Lakeport, would your breeding choices put you in the other camp? I thought breeding for red was one of those bad fad things? And I suppose boasting about the bidding war would also put you at risk for being attacked for making breeding choices for profit? I could have had Traditional red calves on the ground several years ago. But I choose instead to carefully pick the bulls and cows that I'll be relying upon to make good ones. Fortunately, I was lucky to find nice cows that carry red to start with. I've been breeding them to a really nice homozygous black bull to produce some more that carry red. At the same time I've been taking my time and searching for a nice bull that carries red. I purchased one from Patti Adams. His pedigree includes Ace of Clove Brook, Bedford Romarc Rambler, among others in his immediate pedigree. He's a nice bull, nice feet and legs, good temperament, a little bit on the large size for my liking and a bit longer in the face, but my cows are smaller than most and have short wide muzzles so it shouldn't be much of an issue. I've also produced a few nice bulls that carry red, wide faces and short legs, and out of mothers with extremely nice udders. With that I should be able to produce some nice looking Dexters. We'll see what Inky is like when she arrives, but based on the other Dinsmore Farm breedings I've seen and owned, my expectations are pretty high for her even at her age. As far as my other project goes, I'm one of very few who had the foresight and initiative to see that it was going to be popular. I've also started that project with some extremely nice examples of both breeds, and it's been many years since I started it. I could have sold off early breedings for a modest amount of money, but I kept my focus on what I wanted and held off until it reached the quality that I felt it needed to be. The reaction to the photos of the breedings and the parents has been almost universally positive. What's the difference between selling the early breedings for $1000, or going 4 or 5 generations to increase the Highland percentage and selling them for $7000? I can tell you it's a lot harder to sell the more expensive calves, but the owners of them are extremely happy with them, and their special appeal.
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Post by teatpuller11 on Sept 27, 2017 1:20:33 GMT
Well, I'll be disappointed in you if you continue to slam purebred Dexter owners, as you have in the past, for breeding good quality to meet market demand, and asking high prices for them.
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Post by karenp on Sept 27, 2017 11:16:28 GMT
I'm obsessed with science, and facts. Lots of things can make an animal shorter. The BD1-chondrodysplasia gene is one of many things. You can't assume that a shorter animal has a BD1 gene, until you see the test result. If this 19 year old cow actually has the BD1 gene (with a test), and has Chondrodysplasia, and if she is still moving very well without pain, it could mean that she has otherwise exceptional joint genetics, to help offset her aggrecan deficiency. I'd hope to get a non-chondro offspring out of her. That's funny, after she calves this year, I plan to breed her to one of our Traditional lines bulls that carries red, and get a shortie heifer or bull out of her. I'm kinda hoping a for a bull, that I can ultimately use on some of our Traditional lines red or carries red Dexters to produce some nice red Traditional heifers or bulls, either short or long leg varieties. They all have exceptional udders, great conformation, they're between 40-42" in height at 5 plus years of age, and extremely good temperaments. I'm thinking of a whole herd of Traditional lines red shorties running around our pastures in 10 years, with our little shortie high percentage Highlands in the pasture next to them. Did you see that little 1 day old silver short leg Highland bull that we had available for sale recently on FB? I had a bidding war for him, chondrodysplasia and all..... So if I breed Inky to a tested non-carrier bull, and she produces a tested short leg carrier bull or heifer, would you then accept that she has chondrodysplasia? Or would you still insist that she may not have chondrodysplasia, and instead claim that it must be....... a fresh mutation? Now that's funny, I don't care who you are. You are responsible for coffee up my nose by the way.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 27, 2017 11:50:30 GMT
Well, I'll be disappointed in you if you continue to slam purebred Dexter owners, as you have in the past, for breeding good quality to meet market demand, and asking high prices for them. There is a difference between breeding good quality animals to meet market demand, and breeding animals that conform to historical Dexter breed standards. I can point out more than a few "purebred" Dexters, especially in the past 10 years, that would be more at home in a Lowline Angus herd, and they got there virtually overnight. If I wanted to, I could have the hairiest "purebred" Dexters you've ever seen. And I could have even had them listed as parentage verified Dexters. Accuracy is only as good as the person pulling the tail hairs.
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Post by otf on Sept 27, 2017 12:39:24 GMT
Accuracy is only as good as the person pulling the tail hairs. Wow, truer words were never spoken! Gale
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Post by teatpuller11 on Sept 27, 2017 14:29:59 GMT
Hans, words are cheap. send me a message with the names of the animals you claim are really lowline, and I'll do some Judy sleuthing.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 27, 2017 17:50:10 GMT
I am still waiting for the owners of the Dexters that have tested as Holstein/Friesian polled to out those cows! There is NO doubt someone in this breed CHEATED.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 27, 2017 18:06:42 GMT
Hans, words are cheap. send me a message with the names of the animals you claim are really lowline, and I'll do some Judy sleuthing. It's amazing that somebody with such an eye for cattle can't see the rapid differences in Dexter phenotype in the past 10-15 years. Every time I allude to monkey business, there is somebody asking me to name the suspect(s), or provide the proof, knowing that I won't, but it's easier to feign outrage and try to discredit me than acknowledge those changes to the breed or to specific animals. All that I'll say is that I know, and I've also had conversations with others who have extensive first hand knowledge. They just don't get on the internet and talk about it. People can buy and breed what they like, but the information was a large part in my decision to avoid polled Dexters, despite the marketing advantages of having them over the past decade.
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Post by cascade on Sept 27, 2017 20:49:43 GMT
Anybody with genetics knowledge and breeding experience can tell you that you can get huge changes in phenotype over a few generations of purebred selection without any crossbreeding needed.
Give me any herd of pure Dexters, and I could come back in ten years, with a very different phenotype, with no crossbreeding.
That's why detailed breed standards are a good thing. They keep breeders from drifting too far from the breed type.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 28, 2017 0:13:52 GMT
Kirk,
Here is another of your hypotheticals that have NO basis in fact in the Dexter breed. None. The truth is......that if you breed with the non-modern bloodlines, you can throw a bunch of Dexters in a field, make no breeding choices, let nature rule, and the breed will continue with consistent phenotype.
you can breed non-modern bloodlines to other breeds and it is amazing how the Dexter will dominate the phenotype. This has been known for decades and decades and is why Dexters were treasured for outcrossing, because those little dwarf cattle typed themselves.
however, it seems to me the problems with phenotypes arrived with the modern upgraded animals, and some extra setting of traits that may have taken place off the books. There really should not have been the remarkable changes we have all witnessed.
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Post by cascade on Sept 28, 2017 3:20:53 GMT
Here's one of your so-called "Traditional" Dexters. Throw him in a field with some others, and you'll end up with some giant brown beef cattle. PS. The old myth that Dexters were particularly prepotent, was only in the case of black chondro-dwarfs. The black gene is dominant, and the BD1 Chondrodysplasia gene is dominant. You can slap a black gene and a broken ACAN (BD1) gene on any breed of animal and get short black animals. It even works on cats and mice and rats.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 28, 2017 5:32:04 GMT
Is that animal parentage verified. Both parents? If not, how do you know anything about it...especially since it has an appearance YOU think is not “Dexter enough”?
AsI recall that herd had at least one non-conform of which I am aware who was “assigned” a new parent.....without any genotype on file. How convenient. Just turned up with different parentage...no testing on record.
So, how do YOU know this one’s info is accurate?
Did you notice the coloring around the neck and head. I have noticed that on animals with modern imported ancestry..... it I have never seen it on a traditional bloodline Dexter. Explain that.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 28, 2017 10:10:13 GMT
I have one of Ned's daughters, she's 43.5" at age 8. Have you seen Ned in person Kirk? I have. He wasn't an especially small bull, but he was extremely well fed. But he looked 100% like a Dexter bull should look. If I wanted to scan around the internet at some breeder's web pages and post them here, I could find numerous examples of bulls (and cows) from Dexter farms that have little resemblance to Dexters.
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Post by cascade on Sept 28, 2017 14:53:20 GMT
The "purest of pure" Dexters come from rather varied backgrounds. The foundation Dexters came from all sorts of breeds and sizes and colors. Many had a dominant black gene, which hid recessive colors. Some had a chondrodysplasia gene which hid their giant genetics, many had hidden recessive white spotting genes. Some, even had hidden polled genes, hidden by scurs that looked like horns.
With all these hidden genetics, via selection, one can create very different-looking Dexters from the purest of pure Dexters.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 28, 2017 19:11:57 GMT
Your are making assumptions again. . . . stating it as fact. YOU have NO idea of the background of the foundation animals unless it is listed in the herd books.
You are like a whirling dervish. .. . . over the course of time. . . . . your made up pronouncements keep growing in number and whirling around and around.
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Post by cascade on Sept 28, 2017 21:54:10 GMT
The foundation Dexters were sight-selected... Any animal of any breed and cross-breed that was short and thick got labeled as "Dexter".
They even had a rule well into the 1900's that allowed you to enter an animal of ANY breed and ANY background into a Dexter show, and if the animal won a ribbon, it could be registered as a Dexter.
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 29, 2017 2:41:04 GMT
You make it sound as if that is some revelation of which "I" should be aware. . when I am responsible for making all those historical records available to everyone in the first place though where you are concerned I admit to being annoyed that you use them in a very negative fashion to meet your own agenda of trying to pull everything down to the same level of a GRADE bull that came along a century later and has drastically changed a unique and special breeed. However, because the rule existed, does NOT mean that ALL the foundation Dexters were as you try to portray them. My read of Irish cattle history, and all those copied records, is that there were thousands of little black cows being milked by the average Irish families. Those cows were NOT the toys of the rich as you have stated. . . . . not until after the turn of the 20th century when the dwarf cattle caught the fancy of the blue bloods, and it wasn't only because they were small. . . . . . . it was because they were functional, and they had survived and thrived because the traits and characteristics connected to their dwarfism were unique and valuable.
You cannot know what it is like to have a vagina unless it's been there everyday. No amount of imagination or speculation will give you the experience. It's the same with the dwarf Dexters. You have to raise them, and experience them to get it. Once you have. . . . then it's like potato chips.
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Post by cascade on Sept 30, 2017 0:17:39 GMT
Until the very late 1800's when rich people decided to create the actual Dexter breed, the term "Dexter" simply meant a short thick animal of any breed.
Shorter animals tend to be thicker and more efficient animals, because shorter animals spend less energy supporting a larger frame.
The old Native Kerry cattle came in a range of sizes and leg lengths. Mostly from medium-small to rather short.
Poor people in Ireland in the 1700's and early 1800's on a tiny bit of poorish land, would have favored the smaller Kerry, and would have called them "Dexter-Kerry" simply meaning “shorter cattle in the Kerry region” .
Whenever livestock are kept by poorish people on poorish land, only those livestock with the hardiest genetics will survive. Most all old heritage breeds were extra hardy, because any that couldn't survive, died off, and the survivors had superior genetics.
In the mid 1700's, lots of British cattle including red Devon started to be imported into the Kerry area of Ireland, and mixed with the native Kerry cattle.
When rich people came along in the late 1800's and developed an actual breed called "Dexter Cattle" they used a mishmash of genetics to start their new Dexter breed. A large percentage of those genetics would have been shorter-framed mixed Kerry, but lots of other genetics were included too.
The rich people who started the Dexter breed, rather accidentally and luckily got some excellent hardy, efficient genetics that came along for the ride.
In all breeds of animals (and humans), genetic dwarfism defects occur occasionally, due to genes being miscopied. In smaller breeds, the defects can hide. In larger breeds, the defects stand out and can be easily culled.
A broken ACAN gene occurs occasionally in all breeds of animals, it causes cartilage and bone malformation and is lethal in homozygous pairs.
When the rich inventors of the Dexter breed, selected foundation stock for their new breed, they started with a mishmash of shorter genetics. A few of those shorter animals likely had a dwarfism defect, but the vast majority were just naturally shorter animals.
100% of the things that make Dexters special, can be found in naturally shorter Dexters tested free of chondrodysplasia.
100% of early breed descriptions and early breed standards describe a breed of 100% naturally shorter animals. None describe the three different phenotypes associated with BD1 Chondrodysplasia.
Most people who think they have expertise with Chondrodysplasia, never even knew for certain if their shorter animals had a BD1 gene or not. They assumed that the shorter ones had the BD1 gene…. But they were dead wrong in many cases.
When I view all the old pictures of Dexters, only about 5 - 10% of them appear to have the Chondrodysplasia defect. The rest could easily be non-chondro.
Dexters are a true short breed, occasionally plagued with dwarfism defects that were unwanted by the breed founders.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 30, 2017 10:04:02 GMT
Until the very late 1800's when rich people decided to create the actual Dexter breed, the term "Dexter" simply meant a short thick animal of any breed. Shorter animals tend to be thicker and more efficient animals, because shorter animals spend less energy supporting a larger frame. The old Native Kerry cattle came in a range of sizes and leg lengths. Mostly from medium-small to rather short. Poor people in Ireland in the 1700's and early 1800's on a tiny bit of poorish land, would have favored the smaller Kerry, and would have called them "Dexter-Kerry" simply meaning “shorter cattle in the Kerry region” . Whenever livestock are kept by poorish people on poorish land, only those livestock with the hardiest genetics will survive. Most all old heritage breeds were extra hardy, because any that couldn't survive, died off, and the survivors had superior genetics. In the mid 1700's, lots of British cattle including red Devon started to be imported into the Kerry area of Ireland, and mixed with the native Kerry cattle. When rich people came along in the late 1800's and developed an actual breed called "Dexter Cattle" they used a mishmash of genetics to start their new Dexter breed. A large percentage of those genetics would have been shorter-framed mixed Kerry, but lots of other genetics were included too. The rich people who started the Dexter breed, rather accidentally and luckily got some excellent hardy, efficient genetics that came along for the ride. In all breeds of animals (and humans), genetic dwarfism defects occur occasionally, due to genes being miscopied. In smaller breeds, the defects can hide. In larger breeds, the defects stand out and can be easily culled. A broken ACAN gene occurs occasionally in all breeds of animals, it causes cartilage and bone malformation and is lethal in homozygous pairs. When the rich inventors of the Dexter breed, selected foundation stock for their new breed, they started with a mishmash of shorter genetics. A few of those shorter animals likely had a dwarfism defect, but the vast majority were just naturally shorter animals. 100% of the things that make Dexters special, can be found in naturally shorter Dexters tested free of chondrodysplasia. 100% of early breed descriptions and early breed standards describe a breed of 100% naturally shorter animals. None describe the three different phenotypes associated with BD1 Chondrodysplasia. Most people who think they have expertise with Chondrodysplasia, never even knew for certain if their shorter animals had a BD1 gene or not. They assumed that the shorter ones had the BD1 gene…. But they were dead wrong in many cases. When I view all the old pictures of Dexters, only about 5 - 10% of them appear to have the Chondrodysplasia defect. The rest could easily be non-chondro. Dexters are a true short breed, occasionally plagued with dwarfism defects that were unwanted by the breed founders. Wait, I thought you said in another thread there wasn't another herd of cows around you for miles? Who then owns those cows behind you in this photo of a calf for sale that you have on Facebook? Last time I checked field fencing was 48" high, and many of those cows behind you have hips coming awfully close to the top wire of that field fence, if you look very closely. The fence doesn't appear to be crushed or anything at least. I can say with absolute certainty that few if any of our cows, even the oldest ones, come close the height of the top of field fencing. About the closest our shorties could get to the top of the field fence is if they raised their heads as high as they possibly could looking for a treat that we would hold over the fence, and then their nose might reach the top wire. photos.app.goo.gl/9jl0lBofI3y4qFGm1
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Post by cascade on Sept 30, 2017 17:04:51 GMT
Much of our place has 39 inch field fence.
My tallest old girl is just over 44 inches. Several old girls at 43-44 inches
Lots and lots of breeding age girls at 37-42 inches My tallest bull is 41 inches
My primary bull for breeding this year is 36 inches tall but he's only 19 months old. He's the shortest animal in the breeding herd, including girls who are even younger than he is.
Without the ability to test for Chondrodysplasia, in the past, many Dexter breeders did what I'm doing... use a shorter bull to keep Dexters within size limits. But if that bull had Chondrodysplasia, then he simply hid the true too-tall height of the calves with the dwarfism effect, and the chondro-breeders passed too tall genetics on to the next generation.
With Chondrodysplasia testing, you can find bulls that are truly short, and free of the Chondrodysplasia gene. These true-breeding short Dexters can bring down the true size of too-tall Dexters.
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